CW feature: Swing?
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I got used to this feature on the TS-2000. You can set "dash/dot ratio" to a number less than or greater than 3.0 (where 3.0 is the default standard -- i.e., the dash is three times the length of the dot). After experimenting, I set mine to 3.7, which gave the transmitted CW a nice little bug-like "swing". At first, I thought this was what the K3's "CW weight" parameter was for, but I immediately discovered that wasn't the case. Would any of you other CW guys out there use such an adjustment in the K3 if it were implemented? I find that's how I naturally want to send, probably a holdover from my bug days years ago.
Bill W5WVO _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Bill W5WVO wrote:
> I got used to this feature on the TS-2000. You can set "dash/dot > ratio" to a number less than or greater than 3.0 (where 3.0 is the > default standard -- i.e., the dash is three times the length of the > dot). After experimenting, I set mine to 3.7, which gave the > transmitted CW a nice little bug-like "swing". At first, I thought > this was what the K3's "CW weight" parameter was for, but I > immediately discovered that wasn't the case. Would any of you other > CW guys out there use such an adjustment in the K3 if it were > implemented? I find that's how I naturally want to send, probably a > holdover from my bug days years ago. An electronic keyer with an incorrect dot-dash ratio does not sound like a bug. It sounds like a misadjusted keyer! I wouldn't use this. The Weight adjustment in the K2, by the way, is dot-space ratio. -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Ron,
I have paralleled both an N3ZN and Begali signature to key my K2's. I bit expensive for keying SSB transmit, but I think very impressive if not overkill. Can't wait to do the same for the K3 on the order list. Maybe I'll use just one. And move the only the Begali to the K3?! A bit obsessive, except that I actually operate C.W. here and there. :-) 72, Bill K9YEQ K2 #35, K2 # 5279, KX1 #35, Mini Modules, etc. -----Original Message----- I just use my Bug to key the rig! _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO
On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:34:23 -0600, "Bill W5WVO" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>I got used to this feature on the TS-2000. You can set "dash/dot ratio" to a number less than or greater than 3.0 (where 3.0 is the default standard -- i.e., the dash is three times the length of the dot). After experimenting, I set mine to 3.7, which gave the transmitted CW a nice little bug-like "swing". At first, I thought this was what the K3's "CW weight" parameter was for, but I immediately discovered that wasn't the case. Would any of you other CW guys out there use such an adjustment in the K3 if it were implemented? I find that's how I naturally want to send, probably a holdover from my bug days years ago. > >Bill W5WVO [snip] I would never use it. Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" An excerpt from a letter written in 1755 from the Assembly to the Governor of Pennsylvania. Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like. http://www.n5ge.com http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
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In my view, the so called "bug swing" is anything but
"nice"! Why anyone would try to send anything but correctly formed code characters is beyond me! Dave W7AQK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Childers, N5GE" <[hidden email]> To: "[Elecraft]" <[hidden email]> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 7:10 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CW feature: Swing? On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:34:23 -0600, "Bill W5WVO" <[hidden email]> wrote: >I got used to this feature on the TS-2000. You can set >"dash/dot ratio" to a number less than or greater than 3.0 >(where 3.0 is the default standard -- i.e., the dash is >three times the length of the dot). After experimenting, I >set mine to 3.7, which gave the transmitted CW a nice >little bug-like "swing". At first, I thought this was what >the K3's "CW weight" parameter was for, but I immediately >discovered that wasn't the case. Would any of you other CW >guys out there use such an adjustment in the K3 if it were >implemented? I find that's how I naturally want to send, >probably a holdover from my bug days years ago. > >Bill W5WVO I would never use it. Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" An excerpt from a letter written in 1755 from the Assembly to the Governor of Pennsylvania. Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like. http://www.n5ge.com http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Well, lots of replies, both public and private. By overwhelming
preponderance, the opinion of the Elecraft community is... AAAAAAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!! (retch, heave) Just forget I brought it, please... ;-) Bill W5WVO David Yarnes wrote: > In my view, the so called "bug swing" is anything but > "nice"! Why anyone would try to send anything but correctly > formed code characters is beyond me! > > Dave W7AQK > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Childers, N5GE" <[hidden email]> > To: "[Elecraft]" <[hidden email]> > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 7:10 PM > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CW feature: Swing? > > > On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:34:23 -0600, "Bill W5WVO" > <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> I got used to this feature on the TS-2000. You can set >> "dash/dot ratio" to a number less than or greater than 3.0 >> (where 3.0 is the default standard -- i.e., the dash is >> three times the length of the dot). After experimenting, I >> set mine to 3.7, which gave the transmitted CW a nice >> little bug-like "swing". At first, I thought this was what >> the K3's "CW weight" parameter was for, but I immediately >> discovered that wasn't the case. Would any of you other CW >> guys out there use such an adjustment in the K3 if it were >> implemented? I find that's how I naturally want to send, >> probably a holdover from my bug days years ago. >> >> Bill W5WVO > [snip] > > I would never use it. > > Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq > > "Those who would give up > Essential Liberty to > purchase a little Temporary > Safety deserve neither > Liberty nor Safety" > > An excerpt from a letter > written in 1755 from the > Assembly to the Governor > of Pennsylvania. > > Support the entire Constitution, not > just the parts you like. > > http://www.n5ge.com > http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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I'm a fan of GHD bugs (currently using a dual lever GN107WS), and
recently noticed that they offer an electronic keyer with what they call "E-Bug" mode. I wasn't sure what to make of it but the ablility to record even straight key messages seemed interesting. I must confess that I don't mind hearing a wee bit of swing in a signal myself, but do strive to send as correctly as I can. Bob NW8L On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 10:20 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote: > You'll find lots of support too, Bill. Just not so vocal here, I guess. > > A long time ago I suggested a "bug mode" in the Elecraft keyers. That would > provide automatic dits like a bug but manual dashes: as long as the dash > paddle was closed the rig would be keyed. I wanted it not so much to alter > the timing (although I use the telegraph long dash for a zero which can't be > done correctly on a keyer) but I find my bug timing suffers if I use a > keyer. I quickly "forget" how to time CW properly if the keyer does it for > me. > Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by AC7AC
Ron and All,
Ron, you must be from south Louisiana! Hard to get that zydeco (spelling?) rhythm out of your soul! Hi. Laissez les bon temps rouler! Dave W7AQK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]> To: "'[Elecraft]'" <[hidden email]> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 9:20 AM Subject: RE: [Elecraft] [K3] CW feature: Swing? You'll find lots of support too, Bill. Just not so vocal here, I guess. A long time ago I suggested a "bug mode" in the Elecraft keyers. That would provide automatic dits like a bug but manual dashes: as long as the dash paddle was closed the rig would be keyed. I wanted it not so much to alter the timing (although I use the telegraph long dash for a zero which can't be done correctly on a keyer) but I find my bug timing suffers if I use a keyer. I quickly "forget" how to time CW properly if the keyer does it for me. Actually, that can be achieved on the K2 with some diodes to fool the keyer into thinking a straight key is connected to the input when the dash lever is pressed. But I was looking for a method that didn't involve outboard parts. I enjoy the sound of a straight key, either a hand pump or a bug. I liken a swing to an "accent". Sometimes a little swing provides character to the sound that I find delightful to hear. But such a swing is not consistent, any more than a speaker with an accent pronounces a syllable consistently in every word. Just tuning across the bands, I have noticed that the most pleasant sounding (to me) fists usually turn out to be bugs or straight keys. But there are many Hams who have a very difficult time copying CW that isn't "machine perfect". For them, any swing or variation in timing seems to be frustrating beyond words. I'm sure there are many who are unhappy with my "fist". We Hams are a disparate bunch. Let the good times roll... Ron AC7AC -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill W5WVO Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 8:19 AM To: [Elecraft] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CW feature: Swing? Well, lots of replies, both public and private. By overwhelming preponderance, the opinion of the Elecraft community is... AAAAAAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!! (retch, heave) Just forget I brought it, please... ;-) Bill W5WVO _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Bob Cunnings NW8L
The K1EL WinKey keyers (and I presume the K-series stand alone keyers) offer "Vibroplex" mode that make automatic dits and manual dahs. 73, ... Joe, W4TV > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob Cunnings > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 1:28 PM > To: [Elecraft] > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CW feature: Swing? > > > I'm a fan of GHD bugs (currently using a dual lever GN107WS), > and recently noticed that they offer an electronic keyer with > what they call "E-Bug" mode. I wasn't sure what to make of it > but the ablility to record even straight key messages seemed > interesting. > > I must confess that I don't mind hearing a wee bit of swing > in a signal myself, but do strive to send as correctly as I can. > > Bob NW8L > > On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 10:20 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire > <[hidden email]> wrote: > > You'll find lots of support too, Bill. Just not so vocal here, I > > guess. > > > > A long time ago I suggested a "bug mode" in the Elecraft > keyers. That > > would provide automatic dits like a bug but manual dashes: > as long as > > the dash paddle was closed the rig would be keyed. I wanted > it not so > > much to alter the timing (although I use the telegraph long > dash for a > > zero which can't be done correctly on a keyer) but I find my bug > > timing suffers if I use a keyer. I quickly "forget" how to time CW > > properly if the keyer does it for me. > > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by w7aqk
-----Original Message-----
In my view, the so called "bug swing" is anything but "nice"! Why anyone would try to send anything but correctly formed code characters is beyond me! Dave W7AQK ---------------------------- Imagine a world where nobody spoke into the mic. Instead, rigs had computer voice generation inside. What came out were your words, but spoken by a robotic artificial voice with perfect pronunciation at just the right speed with just the right tone to cut through and improve communications. Keyers have served to make CW nice & uniform but have also taken much of the life out of the mode for me. I much prefer to work someone who is using a straight key or bug and is sending good code that still has a bit of human flavor to it. Having said that, I agree with you regarding intentional bug swing. If the OP is trying to swing, intentionally messing up the code because it sounds "cool" then that is a bad thing. NNMA instead of CQ is a sign of a poor operator who hasn't mastered the bug. - Keith N1AS - - K3 711 - _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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CW-swing is related to music. Timing is so important.
Ella Fitzgerald and Frank Sinatra are still famous for their timing. A 1-2-3-4 march has a steady beat. But have you ever heard the Saint Louis Blues March? Lots of examples... 73 Arie PA3A _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:02:38 +0200, "Arie Kleingeld PA3A" <[hidden email]>
wrote: >CW-swing is related to music. No it isn't. It's related a person with a poor fist that cannot control the length of the dashes to match the dots they are sending. It has nothing to do with music; It has to do with reliable communication. I believe most bug users who tout the Mississippi Swing should QLF. > Timing is so important. That is correct. A Dash has three times the length of three dots, no more, no less. Even Beethoven knew that, as shown in his fifth symphony. > >Ella Fitzgerald and Frank Sinatra are still famous for their timing. >A 1-2-3-4 march has a steady beat. But have you ever heard the Saint >Louis Blues March? >Lots of examples... None of your examples were CW operators and probably didn't even know what it was... [snip] Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" An excerpt from a letter written in 1755 from the Assembly to the Governor of Pennsylvania. Support the entire Constitution, not just the parts you like. http://www.n5ge.com http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
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In reply to this post by N5GE
At 11:16 PM 06/30/08, Tom Childers, N5GE wrote:
> >CW-swing is related to music. > >No it isn't. It's related a person with a poor fist that cannot control the >length of the dashes to match the dots they are sending. It has nothing to do >with music; It has to do with reliable communication. I believe >most bug users >who tout the Mississippi Swing should QLF. Perhaps it's also valid to say that folks who can't copy machine-perfect cw should also QLF. I'm really happy that attitudes like the one you have stated weren't popular when I started....they would have driven a lot of old timers with more cw and telegraph experience that most off the air and certainly discouraged new folks. Hard to imagine telling my Elmer that his cw was bad 'cause it didn't like a machine. Hard to imagine that when I hung out at a coast station and the ops let me hear the day-to-day communnications that I would tell them their cw was bad. I suspect that folks that are tone-deaf may not understand some of the more subtile points of cadence and spacing. 73, Thom k3hrn _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Thom LaCosta wrote: > At 11:16 PM 06/30/08, Tom Childers, N5GE wrote: > >> >CW-swing is related to music. >> >> No it isn't. It's related a person with a poor fist that cannot >> control the >> length of the dashes to match the dots they are sending. It has >> nothing to do >> with music; It has to do with reliable communication. I believe most >> bug users >> who tout the Mississippi Swing should QLF. As pro Swing drummer I would say its a pity there is not a bit more swing to many of the CW stations I copy. Many straight and bug operators were recognisable by their 'fist'. Too many today use keyers that are set too fast or have no rhythmic sense at all, running characters together, which makes it very hard to copy. Perhaps Elecraft could come up with QSD correcter. 73 John G3YPZ www.traditional-jazz.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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At 04:46 AM 07/01/08, john petters wrote:
>As pro Swing drummer I would say its a pity there is not a bit more >swing to many of the CW stations I copy. Many straight and bug >operators were recognisable by their 'fist'. Too many today use >keyers that are set too fast or have no rhythmic sense at all, >running characters together, which makes it very hard to copy. I'm sure with a little bit of work, we can turn this into a discussion with the fervor of which end of the egg does one crack. I often heard there are no 90 degree angles in nature...and I suspect that one would be hard pressed to find perfectly formed sounds. I have very fond memories of recognizing old friends by their fists, before they signed their calls...and was always pleased when someone would recognize me. >Perhaps Elecraft could come up with QSD correcter. Na....if they haven't responded to the numerous requests for bug emulation, etc., they most likely will not develop the corrector. Back to the imperfect world....I need to tend to my imperfect plants, with their less than perfect soil so that they will produce less than perfect veggies.... 73, Thom k3hrn _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by john petters
John, old chap . . .
While agreeing completely with you about idiots running characters together, I disagree completely with you about pitying the lack of fist swings. CW is not music. It is not amenable to individual interpretation. It is the very antithesis of what you are proposing. I grew up in the CW "swing era" and absolutely hated having to copy that stuff. So-called lyrical "swings" are anathema to the accurate transmission of signal intelligence. Electronic keyers are a gift from the gods precisely because they ameliorate bad sending and individual "styles." Enjoy your jazz. Enjoy your CW. But don't ever confuse the two. 73, Kent K9ZTV john petters wrote: > > As pro Swing drummer I would say its a pity there is not a bit more > swing to many of the CW stations I copy. Many straight and bug > operators were recognisable by their 'fist'. Too many today use keyers > that are set too fast or have no rhythmic sense at all, running > characters together, which makes it very hard to copy. > Perhaps Elecraft could come up with QSD correcter. > 73 > John G3YPZ www.traditional-jazz.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by john petters
--- john petters <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > Thom LaCosta wrote: > > At 11:16 PM 06/30/08, Tom Childers, N5GE wrote: > > > >> >CW-swing is related to music. > >> > >> No it isn't. It's related a person with a poor > fist that cannot > >> control the > >> length of the dashes to match the dots they are > sending. It has > >> nothing to do > >> with music; It has to do with reliable > communication. I believe most > >> bug users > >> who tout the Mississippi Swing should QLF. > > As pro Swing drummer I would say its a pity there is > not a bit more > swing to many of the CW stations I copy. Many > straight and bug operators > were recognisable by their 'fist'. Too many today > use keyers that are > set too fast or have no rhythmic sense at all, > running characters > together, which makes it very hard to copy. > Perhaps Elecraft could come up with QSD correcter. > 73 > John G3YPZ www.traditional-jazz.com > _______________________________________________ the SKCC in using hand pumps and bugs on a regular basis. Trying to make an electronic key sound like a straight key or a bug sounds like an exercise in futility to me. The operator needs to have continuous input to have a unique fist. Changing the keyer will just sound like you changed the keyer. Willis 'Cookie' Cooke K5EWJ _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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