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Clipping first element of CW - K3/KPA-1500

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N4ZR

Clipping first element of CW - K3/KPA-1500

Running into what I'm sure is a simple matter of menu settings, but...
My K3 is set for PTT with a "normal" TX delay of 008 (I presume 8 ms.),
driving a KPA-1500. I am getting persistent reports of clipping one
dash worth at the beginning of each transmission, so my casll becomes
"E4ZR", for example. I've been through both manuals, and aside from
setting a higher TX Delay, I don't know what I can do to clean this up.

so what am I missing?

--

73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

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ANDY DURBIN

Clipping first element of CW - K3/KPA-1500

I don't know what you are missing but, when I was investigating the QSK keying characteristics of the TS-590S, I found a digital storage scope to be very useful. Traces showing key input to rig, amplifier keying output, RF envelope, and RX audio were very informative.

At 30 wpm the first element of your call should be 120 ms long so there would have to be a really bad delay for it to disappear completely. I doubt many could detect the loss of the first 8 ms.

A 'scope will tell you where the delay is happening if no one comes up with an answer for you.

73,
Andy, k3wyc
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ANDY DURBIN

Re: Clipping first element of CW - K3/KPA-1500

"It occurs if the rising edge of the keying waveform happens at the same time as the PTT line. The ONLY way around this is to delay the keying waveform slightly so it occurs after the PTT."

That would seem to imply that you are not using CW VOX keying. If that is the case then wouldn't using CW VOX eliminate the issue?

73,
Andy k3wyc

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Clipping first element of CW - K3/KPA-1500

See CW QRO and TX DELAY in the menu. Also the benefits and likely
issues are described in the manual, page 58 and 66 as MENU items. As
to using other means to key the radio and amp and send CW, those may
have their own settings as required.

While I do not consider myself a high speed CW op, I do work QSK. I do
not find any truncation of the first CW element. I use the internal
keyer and either a Vibroplex Iambic paddle or a Vibroplex single level
paddle. I have VOX set to ON, CW QRO is OFF and TX DLY to NOR and 008.

Hope this helps.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 4/24/2019 7:34 AM, Andy Durbin wrote:

> "It occurs if the rising edge of the keying waveform happens at the same time as the PTT line. The ONLY way around this is to delay the keying waveform slightly so it occurs after the PTT."
>
> That would seem to imply that you are not using CW VOX keying. If that is the case then wouldn't using CW VOX eliminate the issue?
>
> 73,
> Andy k3wyc
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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>

Roy Koeppe

Re: Clipping first element of CW - K3/KPA-1500

In reply to this post by N4ZR

Pete...odd is right. Does it happen when using built-in keyer?

73, Roy K6XK

-Running into what I'm sure is a simple matter of menu settings, but...
My K3 is set for PTT with a "normal" TX delay of 008 (I presume 8 ms.),
driving a KPA-1500. I am getting persistent reports of clipping one
dash worth at the beginning of each transmission, so my casll becomes
"E4ZR", for example. I've been through both manuals, and aside from
setting a higher TX Delay, I don't know what I can do to clean this up.

so what am I missing?

73, Pete N4ZR

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N4ZR

Re: Clipping first element of CW - K3/KPA-1500

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

This appears to be, at least in part, a simple matter of RTFM. Also, my
manual is 9 years old, and there's obviously been a lot of stuff added
since then. Experimentally, it appears that must have *both* QSK on -
whether Full or Semi - and VOX on. Once I do this, I see my first dots
on the KPA-1500 bar-graph every time. I do not want to use the built-in
keyer in the K3, because most of my operating is CW contesting, and I
want to use the Winkeyer to send stored messages from N1MM +. The
manual makes it clear (if only I'd read it) that both QSK and VOX must
be enabled for CW. In PTT mode, it appears that my keyer is sending the
PTT signal simultaneously with the first RF - not good.

Thanks to everyone who helped put me on the right track.

73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

On 4/24/2019 8:49 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:

> See CW QRO and TX DELAY in the menu. Also the benefits and likely
> issues are described in the manual, page 58 and 66 as MENU items.
> As to using other means to key the radio and amp and send CW, those
> may have their own settings as required.
>
> While I do not consider myself a high speed CW op, I do work QSK. I
> do not find any truncation of the first CW element. I use the
> internal keyer and either a Vibroplex Iambic paddle or a Vibroplex
> single level paddle. I have VOX set to ON, CW QRO is OFF and TX DLY
> to NOR and 008.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
>
>
> On 4/24/2019 7:34 AM, Andy Durbin wrote:
>> "It occurs if the rising edge of the keying waveform happens at the
>> same time as the PTT line. The ONLY way around this is to delay the
>> keying waveform slightly so it occurs after the PTT."
>>
>> That would seem to imply that you are not using CW VOX keying. If
>> that is the case then wouldn't using CW VOX eliminate the issue?
>>
>> 73,
>> Andy k3wyc
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Clipping first element of CW - K3/KPA-1500

Glad you found it and have things up and running correctly.

Hope I was able to be of assistance.

73
Bob, K4TAX

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 24, 2019, at 8:14 AM, N4ZR <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This appears to be, at least in part, a simple matter of RTFM. Also, my manual is 9 years old, and there's obviously been a lot of stuff added since then. Experimentally, it appears that must have *both* QSK on - whether Full or Semi - and VOX on. Once I do this, I see my first dots on the KPA-1500 bar-graph every time. I do not want to use the built-in keyer in the K3, because most of my operating is CW contesting, and I want to use the Winkeyer to send stored messages from N1MM +. The manual makes it clear (if only I'd read it) that both QSK and VOX must be enabled for CW. In PTT mode, it appears that my keyer is sending the PTT signal simultaneously with the first RF - not good.
>
> Thanks to everyone who helped put me on the right track.
>
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
> at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
> spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
> For spots, please use your favorite
> "retail" DX cluster.
>
>> On 4/24/2019 8:49 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
>> See CW QRO and TX DELAY in the menu. Also the benefits and likely issues are described in the manual, page 58 and 66 as MENU items. As to using other means to key the radio and amp and send CW, those may have their own settings as required.
>>
>> While I do not consider myself a high speed CW op, I do work QSK. I do not find any truncation of the first CW element. I use the internal keyer and either a Vibroplex Iambic paddle or a Vibroplex single level paddle. I have VOX set to ON, CW QRO is OFF and TX DLY to NOR and 008.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> 73
>>
>> Bob, K4TAX
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 4/24/2019 7:34 AM, Andy Durbin wrote:
>>> "It occurs if the rising edge of the keying waveform happens at the same time as the PTT line. The ONLY way around this is to delay the keying waveform slightly so it occurs after the PTT."
>>>
>>> That would seem to imply that you are not using CW VOX keying. If that is the case then wouldn't using CW VOX eliminate the issue?
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Andy k3wyc
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

K9MA

Re: Clipping first element of CW - K3/KPA-1500

In reply to this post by N4ZR

I know this will seem incredible to the software purists, but I have an
actual mechanical "switch" in series with the PTT line. The K3 is always
in QSK mode, but if I get tired of all the racket, I can just turn on
the PTT. That seems to work flawlessly with the KPA1500, as well as my
old tube amplifiers. (There's another switch in the keying line, just in
case the computer goes nuts. Of course, that could NEVER happen.)

73,
Scott K9MA

On 4/24/2019 08:14, N4ZR wrote:

> This appears to be, at least in part, a simple matter of RTFM. Also,
> my manual is 9 years old, and there's obviously been a lot of stuff
> added since then. Experimentally, it appears that must have *both* QSK
> on - whether Full or Semi - and VOX on. Once I do this, I see my
> first dots on the KPA-1500 bar-graph every time. I do not want to use
> the built-in keyer in the K3, because most of my operating is CW
> contesting, and I want to use the Winkeyer to send stored messages
> from N1MM +. The manual makes it clear (if only I'd read it) that
> both QSK and VOX must be enabled for CW. In PTT mode, it appears that
> my keyer is sending the PTT signal simultaneously with the first RF -
> not good.
>
> Thanks to everyone who helped put me on the right track.
>
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
> at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
> spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
> For spots, please use your favorite
> "retail" DX cluster.
>
> On 4/24/2019 8:49 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
>> See CW QRO and TX DELAY in the menu. Also the benefits and likely
>> issues are described in the manual, page 58 and 66 as MENU items.
>> As to using other means to key the radio and amp and send CW, those
>> may have their own settings as required.
>>
>> While I do not consider myself a high speed CW op, I do work QSK. I
>> do not find any truncation of the first CW element. I use the
>> internal keyer and either a Vibroplex Iambic paddle or a Vibroplex
>> single level paddle. I have VOX set to ON, CW QRO is OFF and TX DLY
>> to NOR and 008.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> 73
>>
>> Bob, K4TAX
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/24/2019 7:34 AM, Andy Durbin wrote:
>>> "It occurs if the rising edge of the keying waveform happens at the
>>> same time as the PTT line. The ONLY way around this is to delay the
>>> keying waveform slightly so it occurs after the PTT."
>>>
>>> That would seem to imply that you are not using CW VOX keying. If
>>> that is the case then wouldn't using CW VOX eliminate the issue?
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Andy k3wyc
>>>

--
Scott K9MA

[hidden email]

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Don Wilhelm

Re: Clipping first element of CW - K3/KPA-1500

Scott,

What do you mean by "if I get tired of all the racket"?
The Elecraft gear is all electronic switching for T/R, so no relay
clacking racket. That is true for ALL Elecraft gear, even the oldest K2.

That may not be true for your old tube amplifiers, but the original
question was about a K3 and a KPA1500, so no relay clacking could be
present.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/24/2019 9:52 AM, K9MA wrote:

> I know this will seem incredible to the software purists, but I have an
> actual mechanical "switch" in series with the PTT line. The K3 is always
> in QSK mode, but if I get tired of all the racket, I can just turn on
> the PTT. That seems to work flawlessly with the KPA1500, as well as my
> old tube amplifiers. (There's another switch in the keying line, just in
> case the computer goes nuts. Of course, that could NEVER happen.)
>
> 73,
> Scott K9MA
>

G4BVY

Re: Clipping first element of CW - K3/KPA-1500

In reply to this post by N4ZR

Hi Pete
If you don't want to use VOX and/or QSK ............ I take both the key line and the PTT line from the WinKey to the K3.
In N1MM - Config - Config Ports etc - WinKey - Set lead time to 1. Works perfectly !!
73
Roger - G4BVY

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of N4ZR
Sent: 24 April 2019 14:15
To: Elecraft List <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Clipping first element of CW - K3/KPA-1500

This appears to be, at least in part, a simple matter of RTFM. Also, my manual is 9 years old, and there's obviously been a lot of stuff added since then. Experimentally, it appears that must have *both* QSK on - whether Full or Semi - and VOX on. Once I do this, I see my first dots on the KPA-1500 bar-graph every time. I do not want to use the built-in keyer in the K3, because most of my operating is CW contesting, and I want to use the Winkeyer to send stored messages from N1MM +. The manual makes it clear (if only I'd read it) that both QSK and VOX must be enabled for CW. In PTT mode, it appears that my keyer is sending the PTT signal simultaneously with the first RF - not good.

Thanks to everyone who helped put me on the right track.

73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

On 4/24/2019 8:49 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:

> See CW QRO and TX DELAY in the menu. Also the benefits and likely
> issues are described in the manual, page 58 and 66 as MENU items.
> As to using other means to key the radio and amp and send CW, those
> may have their own settings as required.
>
> While I do not consider myself a high speed CW op, I do work QSK. I
> do not find any truncation of the first CW element. I use the
> internal keyer and either a Vibroplex Iambic paddle or a Vibroplex
> single level paddle. I have VOX set to ON, CW QRO is OFF and TX DLY
> to NOR and 008.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
>
>
> On 4/24/2019 7:34 AM, Andy Durbin wrote:
>> "It occurs if the rising edge of the keying waveform happens at the
>> same time as the PTT line. The ONLY way around this is to delay the
>> keying waveform slightly so it occurs after the PTT."
>>
>> That would seem to imply that you are not using CW VOX keying. If
>> that is the case then wouldn't using CW VOX eliminate the issue?
>>
>> 73,
>> Andy k3wyc
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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K9MA

Re: Clipping first element of CW - K3/KPA-1500

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

Don,

I use an external vacuum relay for compatibility with my old tube
amplifiers. The whole system long predates the KPA1500, and I still
sometimes use the tube amplifier. The system also includes small relays
for switching receiving antennas and protecting the receiver. However,
even without relays, in QSK there's sound from the receiver between
characters, of course, which I sometimes prefer not to listen to. This
works fine with the K3, as in QSK/VOX mode closing the PTT circuit
simply keeps it in transmit mode. My old FT-1000D doesn't work that way,
and it's a pain: if you close the PTT circuit in QSK mode, you get a
carrier. I'm glad the K3 doesn't work that way.

73,
Scott K9MA

On 4/24/2019 09:12, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Scott,
>
> What do you mean by "if I get tired of all the racket"?
> The Elecraft gear is all electronic switching for T/R, so no relay
> clacking racket. That is true for ALL Elecraft gear, even the oldest K2.
>
> That may not be true for your old tube amplifiers, but the original
> question was about a K3 and a KPA1500, so no relay clacking could be
> present.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 4/24/2019 9:52 AM, K9MA wrote:
>> I know this will seem incredible to the software purists, but I have
>> an actual mechanical "switch" in series with the PTT line. The K3 is
>> always in QSK mode, but if I get tired of all the racket, I can just
>> turn on the PTT. That seems to work flawlessly with the KPA1500, as
>> well as my old tube amplifiers. (There's another switch in the keying
>> line, just in case the computer goes nuts. Of course, that could
>> NEVER happen.)
>>
>> 73,
>> Scott K9MA
>>

Jim Brown-10

Re: Clipping first element of CW - K3/KPA-1500

In reply to this post by N4ZR

Hi Pete,

This is what I've always used, with no issues.

73, Jim K9YC

On 4/24/2019 6:14 AM, N4ZR wrote:
> Experimentally, it appears that must have *both* QSK on - whether Full
> or Semi - and VOX on. Once I do this, I see my first dots on the
> KPA-1500 bar-graph every time.

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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N4ZR

Re: Clipping first element of CW - K3/KPA-1500

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

And none is....

73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

On 4/24/2019 10:12 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote: