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Clock Accuracy

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Phil Kane-2

Re: Clock Accuracy

On 6/24/2010 3:34 PM, VE3NFK wrote:

> Clock is slow by 4 MINUTES after 4 months which is bit annoying.

"Railroad accuracy" is 30 seconds per month, resettable when it gets
That far out. Looks like you are only half as accurate as my wristwatch.

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Craig Smith

Re: Clock Accuracy

The clock on my K3 isn't terribly accurate either. But I've since learned
how to deal with it. Pretty much every piece of electronics you buy these
days has a clock in it. I've found absolutely zero correlation between the
accuracy of the clocks and the overall quality or cost of the equipment.
The worst clock here is in a $6K Agilent scope!

Here's how to get around it - ignore the clocks! I don't even bother
setting them or changing for DST, etc. The only two clocks I use in the
shack are the wall-mounted radio controlled clock and the computer/logging
clock which both adjust automatically and are plenty accurate for me ;>)

73 Craig AC0DS

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Clock Accuracy

Craig,

A personal AMEN to that. I have two clocks in the hamshack that I use -
the atomic clock which also tells me the date and day of the week in
addition to both the indoor and outdoor temperature, and the MFJ 24 hour
analog clock on the wall which is set to GMT. I can tell at a glance
what the time is, no button pushing and I don't care what the K3 clock
says. When logging, I get the hour from the 24 hour clock and the
minutes from the atomic clock - works for me. If I take my K3 "out for
the weekend", I can use K3 Utility to sync it to the computer clock just
before I leave. If the K3 clock ends up 30 seconds off after two days,
do I care? Not a bit! Actually out in the field, I use my wristwatch
in preferrence to the K3 clock, but maybe that is just my choice - can't
teach an old dog new tricks!

My computer clock is quite accurate because it syncs every day to a NIST
standard. I run Atomic Clock Sync (Google for it) as a service on the
computer - meets my needs.

73,
Don W3FPR

Craig D. Smith wrote:
> The clock on my K3 isn't terribly accurate either. But I've since learned
> how to deal with it. Pretty much every piece of electronics you buy these
> days has a clock in it. I've found absolutely zero correlation between the
> accuracy of the clocks and the overall quality or cost of the equipment.
> The worst clock here is in a $6K Agilent scope!
>
>
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The Smiths

Re: Clock Accuracy

When did 2 second a month, or even 4 minutes in 4 months make a due or die situation people.. It's a clock guy... reset it if it's wrong.

This is ham radio people, not NASA science...Okay, you're log is off by 2 seconds... How far off do you think the other guy your talking to has his clock off.. My guess is it doesn't match yours no matter how accurate you have it in the K3. Are we done yet? I belive Wayne already told you how to adjust it.

> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 20:17:08 -0400
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Clock Accuracy
>
> Craig,
>
> A personal AMEN to that. I have two clocks in the hamshack that I use -
> the atomic clock which also tells me the date and day of the week in
> addition to both the indoor and outdoor temperature, and the MFJ 24 hour
> analog clock on the wall which is set to GMT. I can tell at a glance
> what the time is, no button pushing and I don't care what the K3 clock
> says. When logging, I get the hour from the 24 hour clock and the
> minutes from the atomic clock - works for me. If I take my K3 "out for
> the weekend", I can use K3 Utility to sync it to the computer clock just
> before I leave. If the K3 clock ends up 30 seconds off after two days,
> do I care? Not a bit! Actually out in the field, I use my wristwatch
> in preferrence to the K3 clock, but maybe that is just my choice - can't
> teach an old dog new tricks!
>
> My computer clock is quite accurate because it syncs every day to a NIST
> standard. I run Atomic Clock Sync (Google for it) as a service on the
> computer - meets my needs.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> Craig D. Smith wrote:
> > The clock on my K3 isn't terribly accurate either. But I've since learned
> > how to deal with it. Pretty much every piece of electronics you buy these
> > days has a clock in it. I've found absolutely zero correlation between the
> > accuracy of the clocks and the overall quality or cost of the equipment.
> > The worst clock here is in a $6K Agilent scope!
> >
> >
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Brett Howard

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by Craig Smith

I feel cheated! The 18,000 dollar Agilent scope I have on my bench
doesn't have a clock in it... However the 60,000 dollar Agilent scope
we just bought has windows on it and that syncs up over the net so that
one remains fairly accurate... ;)

~Brett (N7MG)

On Thu, 2010-06-24 at 18:05 -0600, Craig D. Smith wrote:

> y accurate either. But I've since learned
> how to deal with it. Pretty much every piece of electronics you buy
> these
> days has a clock in it. I've found absolutely zero correlation
> between the
> accuracy of the clocks and the overall quality or cost of the
> equipment.
> The worst clock here is in a $6K Agilent scope!
>
> Here's how to get around it - ignore the clocks! I don't even bother
> setting them or changing for DST, etc. The only two clocks I use in
> the
> shack are the wall-mounted radio controlled clock and the
> computer/logging
> clock which both adjust automatically and are plenty accurate for
> me ;>)
>
> 73 Craig AC0DS
>
>
>

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by Phil Kane-2

Phil,

Interesting that you should mention "railroad accuracy".
My father worked for the P&LE railroad based out of Pittsburgh. PA.
When he hired on, he was required to buy a pocket watch - an approved
type from an approved jewelery store in Pittsburgh, PA, the railroad
provided a "payment plan" Sorry, but I cannot remember the brand nor the
model watch - of course, that was back in the early 1940s - I don't
know what the rules are today.

73,
Don W3FPR

Phil Kane wrote:
> "Railroad accuracy" is 30 seconds per month, resettable when it gets
> That far out.
>
>
>
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Dave-3

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by John Kountz

Some digital (HF) modes require transmissions timed to start within 1 second
accuracy. I learnt a long time ago not to use the internal K3 clock for that
purpose.

Dave

ww2r

Message: 46
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 00:32:45 +0000
From: The Smiths <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Clock Accuracy
To: <[hidden email]>, <[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

When did 2 second a month, or even 4 minutes in 4 months make a due or die
situation people.. It's a clock guy... reset it if it's wrong.

This is ham radio people, not NASA science...Okay, you're log is off by 2
seconds... How far off do you think the other guy your talking to has his
clock off.. My guess is it doesn't match yours no matter how accurate you
have it in the K3. Are we done yet? I belive Wayne already told you how to
adjust it.

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Clock Accuracy

But those modes are computer generated, and the computer clock can be
easily sync'ed with a NIST standard. I don't know why anyone would want
to use a free-running clock for anything that requires that degree of
accuracy.

The RTC in the K2 or the K3 is intended only for a logging convenience
when no other timepiece is available. I cannot believe it was ever
intended to be a precision clock standard. If you err in your log entry
by 30 seconds, does anyone care?

73,
Don W3FPR

Dave wrote:
> Some digital (HF) modes require transmissions timed to start within 1 second
> accuracy. I learnt a long time ago not to use the internal K3 clock for that
> purpose.
>
> Dave
>
>
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Grant Youngman

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by Craig Smith

Couldn't agree more. I can't imagine chopping my k3 to fiddle with the accuracy of the clock. It's mind bogglingly insane that anyone would even consider doing that. Not that I don't accept that insanity is rampant (or at least that common sense is an old fashioned concept). For goodness sake, people -- BUY A TIMEPIECE!

Grant/NQ5T

On Jun 24, 2010, at 7:05 PM, Craig D. Smith wrote:

>
> Here's how to get around it - ignore the clocks! I don't even bother
> setting them or changing for DST, etc. The only two clocks I use in the
> shack are the wall-mounted radio controlled clock and the computer/logging
> clock which both adjust automatically and are plenty accurate for me ;>)
>
> 73 Craig AC0DS
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO

Re: Clock Accuracy

Time accuracy is important to me as a personal matter. All the timepieces I
depend on are calibration-linked -- my watch (WWVB), my computers (NTP), my
cellphones, GPS, etc.... I also have a bunch of free-running clocks around
the house, of course, but my watch is always accurate to within a few
milliseconds, so that's what I look at when I want to know what time it is.

I think this is really a philosophical and indeed a somewhat emotional
issue. The K3 is arguably the ultimate radio you can get right now, but it
has this feature (the RTC) that admittedly doesn't do a very good job of,
well, doing its job. Should anybody really care? No, probably not. Your
computer clock is the one you really need to be dead-on accurate for ham
radio purposes -- at least until such time as the K3 comes with built-in (no
computer needed) WSJT modes (which, in conjunction with the P3, might
actually be doable).

But I can also see the point of view that says: if you're going to go to the
trouble of designing a RTC into a high-end radio, at least make it a
high-end RTC, capable of keeping itself accurate using WWV, WWVH, WWVB, or
some other method. Or else don't include it. In my opinion, an inaccurate
RTC is simply worthless. It's a waste of CPU cycles. But the reality is,
it's there, and making it accurate after the fact would not be trivial. IMO
this is not a worthwile use of Elecraft's limited R&D resources.

Bill W5WVO

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Grant Youngman" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:22 PM
To: "Elecraft Email" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Clock Accuracy

> Couldn't agree more. I can't imagine chopping my k3 to fiddle with the
> accuracy of the clock. It's mind bogglingly insane that anyone would even
> consider doing that. Not that I don't accept that insanity is rampant (or
> at least that common sense is an old fashioned concept). For goodness
> sake, people -- BUY A TIMEPIECE!
>
> Grant/NQ5T
>
>
> On Jun 24, 2010, at 7:05 PM, Craig D. Smith wrote:
>
>>
>> Here's how to get around it - ignore the clocks! I don't even bother
>> setting them or changing for DST, etc. The only two clocks I use in the
>> shack are the wall-mounted radio controlled clock and the
>> computer/logging
>> clock which both adjust automatically and are plenty accurate for me ;>)
>>
>> 73 Craig AC0DS
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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>
>

Mark Stennett

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by Dave-3

I prefer that my K3 know what frequency it is on more than what time it is.

On 6/24/2010 8:52 PM, Dave wrote:

> Some digital (HF) modes require transmissions timed to start within 1 second
> accuracy. I learnt a long time ago not to use the internal K3 clock for that
> purpose.
>
> Dave
>
> ww2r
>
>
>
> Message: 46
> Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 00:32:45 +0000
> From: The Smiths<[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Clock Accuracy
> To:<[hidden email]>,<[hidden email]>
> Cc: Elecraft Reflector<[hidden email]>
> Message-ID:<[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> When did 2 second a month, or even 4 minutes in 4 months make a due or die
> situation people.. It's a clock guy... reset it if it's wrong.
>
> This is ham radio people, not NASA science...Okay, you're log is off by 2
> seconds... How far off do you think the other guy your talking to has his
> clock off.. My guess is it doesn't match yours no matter how accurate you
> have it in the K3. Are we done yet? I belive Wayne already told you how to
> adjust it.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

Dave-3

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

i used to use the windows XCP "sync by internet to NIST time" function but
after having my computer clock set 14 seconds and 17 seconds off utc i
ALWAYS double check and independant source...the k3 is the most convenient

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Wilhelm [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 9:15 PM
To: Dave
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Clock Accuracy

But those modes are computer generated, and the computer clock can be
easily sync'ed with a NIST standard. I don't know why anyone would want
to use a free-running clock for anything that requires that degree of
accuracy.

The RTC in the K2 or the K3 is intended only for a logging convenience
when no other timepiece is available. I cannot believe it was ever
intended to be a precision clock standard. If you err in your log entry
by 30 seconds, does anyone care?

73,
Don W3FPR

Dave wrote:
> Some digital (HF) modes require transmissions timed to start within 1
second
> accuracy. I learnt a long time ago not to use the internal K3 clock for
that
> purpose.
>
> Dave
>
>

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Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA

Re: Clock Accuracy

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

M0XDF

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Over here, I don't think the new rail companies know what a clock or a watch is!

I must be lucky, my clock has only lost 5 minutes in 5 months.

73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
--
The lame man who keeps the right road outstrips the runner who takes a wrong one. The more active and swift the latter is, the further he will go astray.
-Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)

On 25 Jun 2010, at 02:40, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Interesting that you should mention "railroad accuracy".
> My father worked for the P&LE railroad based out of Pittsburgh. PA.
> When he hired on, he was required to buy a pocket watch - an approved
> type from an approved jewelery store in Pittsburgh, PA, the railroad
> provided a "payment plan" Sorry, but I cannot remember the brand nor the
> model watch - of course, that was back in the early 1940s - I don't
> know what the rules are today.

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M0XDF

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO

Not that I'm complaining about the clock or criticising those that want more accuracy, but there was a time, a long time ago, when people didn't have clocks or watches, and even when they got clocks, they were very inaccurate - the first clocks didn't have minute hands!

I kinda think they were probably less hurried, more relaxed days.
73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
--
Don't say you don't have enough time. You have exactly the same number of
hours per day that were given to Helen Keller, Pasteur, Michaelangelo,
Mother Teresa, Leonardo da Vinci, Thomas Jefferson, and Albert Einstein.
-H. Jackson Brown, Jr., writer

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Alexey Kats

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by M0XDF

I apologize if it is inappropriate, but I am getting REALLY confused.

1 minute off in a month. It is 15 seconds off in a week. Let's say it
takes TWO minutes to correct it (maybe an overstatement, but still...)
Now, do you really mind spending extra TWO MINUTES correcting the
embedded clock than spending TWO MINUTES actually talking or listening
to somebody? Or do I miss something in this discussion?

I would GUESS that this is all about wrong expectation - instead of
treating embedded watch as a convenience some people come to
conclusion that since K3 as a TRANSCEIVER is a precision instrument it
must be just as accurate in all its other functions (embedded watch
should be accurate to millisecond, output watt-meter should be
accurate to milliwatt, or power source voltage should be accurate to
millivolt). Well, it is not and it should not. It is merely an
instrument for our hobbies, and it is better to define its quality by
its PRIMARY function than put it down because its secondary function
is not up to par.

Oh, and for the person who said he likes to compare his computer clock
to his K3. I'd suggest revisiting the whole idea of comparing
"untrusted" time source with "independent" time source. What makes you
think that "independent" is any better than "untrusted"? If you have
two watches, one is 30 MINUTES BEHIND correct time and another is 30
MINUTES AHEAD correct time, does it really tell you anything if you
compare those two? (I mean "anything" besides of that you can't trust
either one?) Comparing untrusted watch with the one you TRUST is fine,
but comparing it with the one you KNOW to be not precise but WISHING
to be precise is, pretty much, wishful thinking, at best.

In any case, can we stop trashing K{2|3} clock here? It servers its
purpose, after all. It is not perfect, it is not as stable as primary
frequency, but does it really matter? This is the tranceiver, after
all, not an atomic clock. I am afraid than next thing people will
complain about would be instability caused by side effects of
relativity theory after they travel around the globe several times.

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:42 AM, David Ferrington, M0XDF
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Over here, I don't think the new rail companies know what a clock or a watch is!
>
> I must be lucky, my clock has only lost 5 minutes in 5 months.
>
> 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174

--
Alexey Kats (neko)
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Alexey Kats

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by M0XDF

Thank you, David, you managed to summarize what I was trying to say in
one single (although long) sentence.

My apologies to the reflector audience, I should have thought about
eloquence before I posted my version of the "oh, come on" response.

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:47 AM, David Ferrington, M0XDF
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Not that I'm complaining about the clock or criticising those that want more accuracy, but there was a time, a long time ago, when people didn't have clocks or watches, and even when they got clocks, they were very inaccurate - the first clocks didn't have minute hands!
>
> I kinda think they were probably less hurried, more relaxed days.
> 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
> --
> Don't say you don't have enough time. You have exactly the same number of
> hours per day that were given to Helen Keller, Pasteur, Michaelangelo,
> Mother Teresa, Leonardo da Vinci, Thomas Jefferson, and Albert Einstein.
> -H. Jackson Brown, Jr., writer
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>

--
Alexey Kats (neko)
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M0XDF

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by Alexey Kats

You miss something :-)

I'm not complaining about my clock, I think it is just fine, I only use it in the field and like Don, I sync it before I go out - either via the utility or via some other timepiece.
73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
--
In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply. If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it. If you can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense. Is Common Sense divine?

On 25 Jun 2010, at 09:12, Alexey Kats wrote:

> I apologize if it is inappropriate, but I am getting REALLY confused.
>
> 1 minute off in a month. It is 15 seconds off in a week. Let's say it
> takes TWO minutes to correct it (maybe an overstatement, but still...)
> Now, do you really mind spending extra TWO MINUTES correcting the
> embedded clock than spending TWO MINUTES actually talking or listening
> to somebody? Or do I miss something in this discussion?

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Alexey Kats

Re: Clock Accuracy

Ouch! My apologies, I was responding to the whole trend of negative
feelings toward K3 (and K2) clock counter. I did not mean to make it
sound like I was responding to your complaints (I don't even recall if
you DID complain about anything).

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:27 AM, David Ferrington, M0XDF
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> You miss something :-)
>
> I'm not complaining about my clock, I think it is just fine, I only use it in the field and like Don, I sync it before I go out - either via the utility or via some other timepiece.
> 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
> --
> In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply. If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it. If you can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense. Is Common Sense divine?

--
Alexey Kats (neko)
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M0XDF

Re: Clock Accuracy

No need to apologise and I'm sorry, I guessed you were questioning me since it was my post attached.
I took no offence and intended none. My post wasn't supposed to be a criticism of your post, of my post etc.
Lets all lighten up here folks, time is to short (sorry, couldn't resist it :-)

There are those that care about the accuracy of the K3 clock and those that don't. Either way, their opinion should be respected and insight gleamed in what ever way one can from their posts.
I for one enjoy reading the odd thread that goes on a bit, a light relief from some of the heavier topics.

73 de M0XDF, K3 #174

--
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.

On 25 Jun 2010, at 09:32, Alexey Kats wrote:

> Ouch! My apologies, I was responding to the whole trend of negative
> feelings toward K3 (and K2) clock counter. I did not mean to make it
> sound like I was responding to your complaints (I don't even recall if
> you DID complain about anything).
>
> On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:27 AM, David Ferrington, M0XDF
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> You miss something :-)
>>
>> I'm not complaining about my clock, I think it is just fine, I only use it in the field and like Don, I sync it before I go out - either via the utility or via some other timepiece.
>> 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
>> --
>> In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply. If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it. If you can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense. Is Common Sense divine?
>
>
>
> --
> Alexey Kats (neko)

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