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Clock Accuracy

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W8JI

Clock Accuracy (the moral of the story)

Almost 30 years ago, when I designed the AL1200 amplifier, it included a
rough relative voltmeter like most other amps had except I included a
cheap peak voltage detector.

I thought I'd calibrate the cheap relative voltmeter scale, making the scale
show peak watts instead of zero through ten like most other meters. I warned
it was only accurate into 50 ohm loads, and was a relative meter that read
PEP. It cost the customer nothing, and I thought it was better to have
something that read power with pretty fair accuracy if the load was close to
50 ohms j0 then to just say 0-10.

Over the years we had a flurry compliants like the clock complaints. Never
once did I hear "Hey, at least that's better than zero through ten like my
XYZ".

The lesson I learned was to never give the public some bonus-for-nothing
unless the gift is flawless. Myself, I would be unwilling to pay even $1
more to have an accurate clock in the K3.

73 Tom

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Mike Reublin

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Agreed about the clock. It's hard to imagine any logging software that
can't do a time sync with a NIST server, unless you're in the boonies.
My wristwatch claims to sync with WWV nightly.
I'm not sure what leeway LoTW (or some contests) allows for matching but
it might be as tight as 30 seconds.

73, Mike NF4L

Don Wilhelm wrote:

> But those modes are computer generated, and the computer clock can be
> easily sync'ed with a NIST standard. I don't know why anyone would want
> to use a free-running clock for anything that requires that degree of
> accuracy.
>
> The RTC in the K2 or the K3 is intended only for a logging convenience
> when no other timepiece is available. I cannot believe it was ever
> intended to be a precision clock standard. If you err in your log entry
> by 30 seconds, does anyone care?
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> Dave wrote:
>
>> Some digital (HF) modes require transmissions timed to start within 1 second
>> accuracy. I learnt a long time ago not to use the internal K3 clock for that
>> purpose.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
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Guy, K2AV

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by M0XDF

I'm taking my K3 to field day in the morning. Tonight I will run the
utility and sync the time. It will be a clock in a convenient place
for FD, that can't get knocked off the card table 10 times. Doing
just what it was intended to do. It will be just fine.

On the wall here at home I have a clock with big numbers that
automatically syncs itself to the 60 kHz WWV signal. I PAID for that
on purpose. I expect that one to stay within the second. I paid for
something to stay within the second. Not interested in paying for
that in a K3.

Anyone who wants to come up with an accuracy mod, go right ahead.
Your time. Your expense. Then you can see how many are interested.
I continue to vote for Wayne keeping a very practical bent in his
business. Upgrades need to have broad appeal within our tiny, tiny
ham radio niche. More money spent than money taken in means no
Elecraft. Then you get to have the responsiveness of Yakencom,
permanently.

Get Yakencom to fix something or have any vision. They're telling you
with their past performance how much money is in ham radio, what the
limits of profitability are. They DO know how much money they are
making. Figuring them out is what helps one to know how exceptional
Elecraft is, and what we have to lose.

73, Guy.

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 5:02 AM, David Ferrington, M0XDF
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> No need to apologise and I'm sorry, I guessed you were questioning me since it was my post attached.
> I took no offence and intended none. My post wasn't supposed to be a criticism of your post, of my post etc.
> Lets all lighten up here folks, time is to short (sorry, couldn't resist it :-)
>
> There are those that care about the accuracy of the K3 clock and those that don't. Either way, their opinion should be respected and insight gleamed in what ever way one can from their posts.
> I for one enjoy reading the odd thread that goes on a bit, a light relief from some of the heavier topics.
>
> 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
>
> --
> Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
> find that they very rarely lose or fail.
>
>
>
> On 25 Jun 2010, at 09:32, Alexey Kats wrote:
>
>> Ouch! My apologies, I was responding to the whole trend of negative
>> feelings toward K3 (and K2) clock counter. I did not mean to make it
>> sound like I was responding to your complaints (I don't even recall if
>> you DID complain about anything).
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:27 AM, David Ferrington, M0XDF
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> You miss something :-)
>>>
>>> I'm not complaining about my clock, I think it is just fine, I only use it in the field and like Don, I sync it before I go out - either via the utility or via some other timepiece.
>>> 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
>>> --
>>> In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply. If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it. If you can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense. Is Common Sense divine?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Alexey Kats (neko)
>
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Merv Schweigert

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by Mike Reublin

Mike wrote:
> Agreed about the clock. It's hard to imagine any logging software that
> can't do a time sync with a NIST server, unless you're in the boonies.
> My wristwatch claims to sync with WWV nightly.
> I'm not sure what leeway LoTW (or some contests) allows for matching but
> it might be as tight as 30 seconds.
>
> 73, Mike NF4L
>
>
Try 30 minutes for LOTW. If you are within 30 mins the QSO is ok.
https://p1k.arrl.org/lotw/faq

73 Merv KH7C / K9FD
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Ken Kopp-3

OT: Convenient time source

In reply to this post by Mike Reublin

Last I knew ... from the creator of LOTW ... the
"time match" window for QSO's was +/- 30 minutes.

Probably the most accurate time conveniently available
to most of us is a cell phone.

73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
[hidden email]

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Rick Dettinger-3

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by M0XDF

Yes, but their radios were just boat anchors.

73,
Rick Dettinger K7MW

On Jun 25, 2010, at 12:47 AM, David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote:

> Not that I'm complaining about the clock or criticising those that
> want more accuracy, but there was a time, a long time ago, when
> people didn't have clocks or watches, and even when they got clocks,
> they were very inaccurate - the first clocks didn't have minute hands!
>
> I kinda think they were probably less hurried, more relaxed days.
> 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174

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Mel

Re: Clock Accuracy

Remember what the old wise man said, " Man with a watch, knows what time it is, man with two watches is never sure."

Mel 'Nuf said

--- On Fri, 6/25/10, Rick Dettinger <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Rick Dettinger <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Clock Accuracy
To: "David Ferrington, M0XDF" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft Email" <[hidden email]>
Date: Friday, June 25, 2010, 9:10 AM

Yes, but their radios were just boat anchors.

73,
Rick Dettinger K7MW

On Jun 25, 2010, at 12:47 AM, David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote:

> Not that I'm complaining about the clock or criticising those that
> want more accuracy, but there was a time, a long time ago, when
> people didn't have clocks or watches, and even when they got clocks,
> they were very inaccurate - the first clocks didn't have minute hands!
>
> I kinda think they were probably less hurried, more relaxed days.
> 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174

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Phil Hystad-3

Re: Clock Accuracy (the moral of the story)

In reply to this post by W8JI

"...unwilling to pay even $1 for an accurate clock in the K3"

I bought a Citizen ECO drive watch a few months ago. I liked it because it was solar powered and had a clean face. About once a month I might check it with my internet-updated laptop computer clock. I paid about $175 at Costco for this watch.

But, the mere idea of spending extra for a clock on a radio is silly unless that is a clock for my old Hammarlund HQ-170A. My original HQ-170AC had a clock but I got rid of that in 1967. The one I picked up at a ham fest a few years go did not have a clock -- just an empty but covered spot on the front panel that begs the need for a clock face. I still have this background activity of hunting down a clock for my HQ-170A. Do I need it. No. In fact, the HQ-170A is in my storage garage so it might be considered really lame to spend money on a clock for a radio in storage.

A K3 is not like that. I don't even do the menu selection to display the clock on my K3. If I need to know the time, I have at least three clocks in the room: an analog wall clock, the time on my laptop, and the time on my wrist watch. There is no big empty spot on the front panel of a K3 where a clock is supposed to go.

There must have been a time in the past where a clock on a radio was important. Maybe. That time is certainly not today.

Therefore, Tom, as usual, has the right answer --- unwilling to pay even a $1 for [any kind of clock] in the K3.

73, phil, K7PEH

P.S. If anyone has a clock for an HQ-170A that they would like to sell, let me know. I might go as high as $25 for such a clock. After all, I will be spending about $25 on a bottle of wine to take over to friend's house for dinner tonight. Certainly, a clock is worth the same. The wine: Earthquake Zinfandel.

On Jun 25, 2010, at 4:13 AM, Tom W8JI wrote:

> <some deleted>
>
> Myself, I would be unwilling to pay even $1
> more to have an accurate clock in the K3.
>
> 73 Tom
>
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John_N1JM

Re: Clock Accuracy (the moral of the story)

I haven't read all the responses to this thread but maybe it could be turned off by a menu item, in case someone didn't want it take up cpu cycles.

VE3NFK

Re: Clock Accuracy (the moral of the story)

Just to add a note of ? something to this thread....

You are all correct that the clock is a really meaningless addition to the K3
and in no way would I want any of the Elecraft gang wasting a minute on it..

I just find it an interesting little exercise to see if it could be made more
accurate - for fun only - and only when I have another reason to open it up.

I DON'T use the K3 clock - like most of you I have the darn things everywhere
and the computer is synced to a time standard... it is just a tiny niggling thing
that would be nice to be better (on MY own time and effort)

I am extraordinarily pleased with my radio AND more importantly the excellent
response from K3 - I was most impressed to have a tech answer from Wayne
himself within minutes as to a 'homebrew' possible adjustment.

Cheers to all 73 John VE3NFK

wayne burdick

FWIW: Why there's a real-time clock in the K3

Administrator

I do manual logging when the PC is turned off. I also use the "ALARM"
function of the K3 to remind me when it's time to stop doing email and
start a contest.

I don't wear a watch since they tend to get snagged on things. Most
also conduct electricity, and my hand is often buried inside a rig. I
don't want one of those $19 brushed-aluminum 24-hour clock thingies
that sits on top of the rig, especially when operating portable. My
iPhone tells time pretty well but stays in my pocket. I can't see the
wall clock with my glasses off.

+/- 2 seconds per day is just inaccurate enough to remind me to tune
into WWV about once a month :)

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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Larry - K2GN

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by Mel

I KNOW WHAT TIME IT IS!!!!
IT'S TIME TO QUIT!!!!!!
ENUF ALREADY!!!!!

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Andrew Moore-3

Re: FWIW: Why there's a real-time clock in the K3

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

> I do manual logging when the PC is turned off

Ditto on philosophy of watch, brushed aluminum clock, and manual logging.

I leave it on the subrx display spot all the time (no subrx here)

I'm glad they're there (both K2 and K3).

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I do manual logging when the PC is turned off. I also use the "ALARM"
> function of the K3 to remind me when it's time to stop doing email and
> start a contest.
>
> I don't wear a watch since they tend to get snagged on things. Most
> also conduct electricity, and my hand is often buried inside a rig. I
> don't want one of those $19 brushed-aluminum 24-hour clock thingies
> that sits on top of the rig, especially when operating portable. My
> iPhone tells time pretty well but stays in my pocket. I can't see the
> wall clock with my glasses off.
>
> +/- 2 seconds per day is just inaccurate enough to remind me to tune
> into WWV about once a month :)
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
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Laurent F6DEX

Re: Clock Accuracy

In reply to this post by VE3NFK

Hello

A suggestion for Wayne/Eric :

1) a CAT command to update the clock so that third party software can update constantly at least once at each seession.

2) a MENU to correct time error

73, Laurent F6DEX

Laurent F6DEX

Dick Dievendorff

Re: Clock Accuracy

CAT commands have always been available that can be used to set the K3 Date and Time. This is how the K3 Utility sets the date and time to match the PC clock.

Dick, K6KR

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 26, 2010, at 1:44 AM, Laurent F6DEX <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hello
>
> A suggestion for Wayne/Eric :
>
> 1) a CAT command to update the clock so that third party software can update
> constantly at least once at each seession.
>
> 2) a MENU to correct time error
>
> 73, Laurent F6DEX
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Clock-Accuracy-tp5218803p5224853.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Laurent F6DEX

Re: Clock Accuracy

Dick

Can you tell me what CAT command is available to set date/time . I don't see it documented in the programming manual.

73, Laurent

Laurent F6DEX

Dick Dievendorff

Re: Clock Accuracy

It is a series of K3 commands. The K3 utility emulates what you would do from the front panel. The commands used are SWT to tap various switches, MNxxx to open the config:time menu, DS to read the VFO A display, and UP and DN to change the hours, minutes, and seconds to match your time source.

73 de Dick. K6KR

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 27, 2010, at 2:53 AM, Laurent F6DEX <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Dick
>
> Can you tell me what CAT command is available to set date/time . I don't see
> it documented in the programming manual.
>
> 73, Laurent
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Clock-Accuracy-tp5218803p5227456.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Laurent F6DEX

Re: Clock Accuracy

Dick

Thank you. This is the way the K3 utility sets up the clock and I never noticed since it is very fast.
I will emulate same commands. However a true and "transparent" cat command would be better.

Laurent F6DEX

Laurent F6DEX

Richard W Hemingway

Re: Poor RX on SSB

I have just finished my K3 kit and it seems to be working just fine.
However, I have been trying to tune into FD on SSB and find poor
reception. I should explain that I live in a retirement community
and only have a Isotron 20M antenna sitting on the top of a bookcase
by a window on the second floor. However, that said I should further
explain tht I usually can receive SSB fairly well. I am receiving CW
great and PSK (which I usually use) pretty well. The SSB signals
seem to be down in the mud, while the CW signals are very strong.

I am new to this reflector (and to the K3) and this may be a dumb
question. Any help on this or advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,

73
Dick, N5XRD
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Brett Howard

Re: Poor RX on SSB

Check your filter settings... Being that you are receiving narrower
signals ok but not wider ones I suspect that you have a problem with a
filter offset setting (make sure you put in the - if you have a negative
offset)

Let us know if you figure anything else out or have any further
questions.

~Brett

On Sun, 2010-06-27 at 13:52 -0500, Richard Hemingway wrote:

> I have just finished my K3 kit and it seems to be working just fine.
> However, I have been trying to tune into FD on SSB and find poor
> reception. I should explain that I live in a retirement community
> and only have a Isotron 20M antenna sitting on the top of a bookcase
> by a window on the second floor. However, that said I should further
> explain tht I usually can receive SSB fairly well. I am receiving CW
> great and PSK (which I usually use) pretty well. The SSB signals
> seem to be down in the mud, while the CW signals are very strong.
>
> I am new to this reflector (and to the K3) and this may be a dumb
> question. Any help on this or advice would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> 73
> Dick, N5XRD
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1234