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Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

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Bill-4

Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

Discounting the digital capabilities such as memories, DSP, etc. and
only considering actual signal reception: I have had S-lines in the past
(dark dim past), so certainly am familier with them. However, as a point
of curiosity, how does the S-line compare to the K3 (only interested in
SSB). Basically, I am interested in how a top of the line analog
receiver does compares to a K3(S)? The question comes from a QSO
regarding the microprocessor noise of modern rigs covering and/or
distorting received signals. Offline response might be good for this, as
I am sure not many would be interested in the subject.

Thanks, Bill W2BLC K-Line

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Kjeld Holm

Re: Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

Dear Bill,

Parts of the answer can be found at
http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
search for Collins and you will get some 3 - 5 hits.

Vy 73 de OZ1CCM, Kjeld

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill
Sent: 3. juni 2018 15:17
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

Discounting the digital capabilities such as memories, DSP, etc. and
only considering actual signal reception: I have had S-lines in the past
(dark dim past), so certainly am familier with them. However, as a point
of curiosity, how does the S-line compare to the K3 (only interested in
SSB). Basically, I am interested in how a top of the line analog
receiver does compares to a K3(S)? The question comes from a QSO
regarding the microprocessor noise of modern rigs covering and/or
distorting received signals. Offline response might be good for this, as
I am sure not many would be interested in the subject.

Thanks, Bill W2BLC K-Line

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Ron Genovesi

Re: Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

I’m interested. Keep the thread going here

Ron Genovesi
Sent from My iPad

> On Jun 3, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Kjeld Holm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Dear Bill,
>
> Parts of the answer can be found at
> http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
> search for Collins and you will get some 3 - 5 hits.
>
> Vy 73 de OZ1CCM, Kjeld
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill
> Sent: 3. juni 2018 15:17
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver
>
> Discounting the digital capabilities such as memories, DSP, etc. and
> only considering actual signal reception: I have had S-lines in the past
> (dark dim past), so certainly am familier with them. However, as a point
> of curiosity, how does the S-line compare to the K3 (only interested in
> SSB). Basically, I am interested in how a top of the line analog
> receiver does compares to a K3(S)? The question comes from a QSO
> regarding the microprocessor noise of modern rigs covering and/or
> distorting received signals. Offline response might be good for this, as
> I am sure not many would be interested in the subject.
>
> Thanks, Bill W2BLC K-Line
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Henry Pollock - K4TMC

Re: Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

Yes, I would like to here what others can add to this thread. One of my
past hobbies was high-end tube audio electronics, and in numerous set-ups,
they sounded superior to solid-state equipment.

So, my additional question would be...is the microprocessor
noise/distortion affecting the RF signal or just the AF signal, or both?

73,
Henry - K4TMC

On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 7:46 PM, Ron Genovesi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I’m interested. Keep the thread going here
>
> Ron Genovesi
> Sent from My iPad
>
> > On Jun 3, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Kjeld Holm <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Bill,
> >
> > Parts of the answer can be found at
> > http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
> > search for Collins and you will get some 3 - 5 hits.
> >
> > Vy 73 de OZ1CCM, Kjeld
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill
> > Sent: 3. juni 2018 15:17
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [Elecraft] Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver
> >
> > Discounting the digital capabilities such as memories, DSP, etc. and
> > only considering actual signal reception: I have had S-lines in the past
> > (dark dim past), so certainly am familier with them. However, as a point
> > of curiosity, how does the S-line compare to the K3 (only interested in
> > SSB). Basically, I am interested in how a top of the line analog
> > receiver does compares to a K3(S)? The question comes from a QSO
> > regarding the microprocessor noise of modern rigs covering and/or
> > distorting received signals. Offline response might be good for this, as
> > I am sure not many would be interested in the subject.
> >
> > Thanks, Bill W2BLC K-Line
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Martin Sole-3

Re: Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

I run an early, but updated K3, and also an S3 line, among others.
Without wanting to comment on the likely reasons I will say that in some
situations, typically non-intensive, good signal level conditions, the
75S3B here with a 312B4 console and that big 6x4 speaker does have a
certain magical sound quality, even with the 2.1 mechanical filter. The
rigs are on separate desks and not operated at the same time. I think I
could be tempted to pull the S3 receiver and run it with the K3 side by
side and see how it plays.

Although I have 1.5kHz and 500Hz filters in the S3 it's not such a
hotshot CW receiver, especially not having the correct bfo offset
crystal which means using the variable bfo. The S3 notch filter is
nothing special I feel and of course it lacks all the other great
benefits that the K3 has. The 2 things I really like on the S3 are the
sound and the tuning rate, I've never been able to replicate either with
the K3. Putting the 312B4 speaker on the K3 might be a good start though.

Martin, HS0ZED

On 04/06/2018 19:49, Henry Pollock - K4TMC wrote:

> Yes, I would like to here what others can add to this thread. One of my
> past hobbies was high-end tube audio electronics, and in numerous set-ups,
> they sounded superior to solid-state equipment.
>
> So, my additional question would be...is the microprocessor
> noise/distortion affecting the RF signal or just the AF signal, or both?
>
> 73,
> Henry - K4TMC
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 7:46 PM, Ron Genovesi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I’m interested. Keep the thread going here
>>
>> Ron Genovesi
>> Sent from My iPad
>>
>>> On Jun 3, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Kjeld Holm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Bill,
>>>
>>> Parts of the answer can be found at
>>> http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
>>> search for Collins and you will get some 3 - 5 hits.
>>>
>>> Vy 73 de OZ1CCM, Kjeld
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill
>>> Sent: 3. juni 2018 15:17
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: [Elecraft] Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver
>>>
>>> Discounting the digital capabilities such as memories, DSP, etc. and
>>> only considering actual signal reception: I have had S-lines in the past
>>> (dark dim past), so certainly am familier with them. However, as a point
>>> of curiosity, how does the S-line compare to the K3 (only interested in
>>> SSB). Basically, I am interested in how a top of the line analog
>>> receiver does compares to a K3(S)? The question comes from a QSO
>>> regarding the microprocessor noise of modern rigs covering and/or
>>> distorting received signals. Offline response might be good for this, as
>>> I am sure not many would be interested in the subject.
>>>
>>> Thanks, Bill W2BLC K-Line
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Don Wilhelm

Re: Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

In reply to this post by Henry Pollock - K4TMC

Henry,

I believe you will find the arguments similar to those among audiophiles
when recorded music was changing from vinyl to CDs.
My take on the subject is that the dynamic range of the digital
techniques exceeded the analog by a wide range you will not be able to
discern the microprocessor noise at normal or even very high listening
levels.

Take a look at the dynamic range and MDS of modern hybrid (like the
K3/K3S) receivers or good SDR receivers (like KX3 or KX2), in comparison
to some of the best analog receivers, and you should find that the
dynamic range is much greater (indicating its resistance to overload and
distortion is greater). That increased dynamic range gives rise to a
better MDS - in other words, it can hear weaker signals.
The mathematics in the DSP code is not going to cause distortion unless
the ADC is overloaded with a strong signal (good design says that should
not happen).

The Sherwood listings will verify what I am saying - yes, there are
several analog tube-type radios in the Sherwood listing, but they are
pretty far down the list.

Any microprocessor noise should only be introduced in the audio section,
and with good design, that should not happen either - oh yes, if you
have very good ears, you might be able to hear some at a very low level
if you turn the AF gain up all the way, but that is not a normal condition.

If your ears feel that the tube audio gear is "warmer" than the solid
state stuff, then consider that the tube gear generates some 2nd and 3rd
order distortion which is normally what makes it sound "warmer". There
are devices available for solid state audio which add a bit of that
"warming sound" to better satisfy the ears of those who like to hear it.

Certainly, the large speaker enclosures used with old tube-type radios
sound much better than the small speakers in compact solid state radios,
so please don't compare based on those speakers. Connect a good quality
audio system to both radios if you want to make a comparison of that sort.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/4/2018 8:49 AM, Henry Pollock - K4TMC wrote:

Henry Pollock - K4TMC

Re: Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

Don,

Thanks for the comments. Good points!

And just to keep the thread from getting off track...my point of reference
relative to tube audio is post 1995 era electronic and speaker designs, not
the "old tube-type radio" and their associated speakers.

73,
Henry - K4TMC

On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Henry,
>
> I believe you will find the arguments similar to those among audiophiles
> when recorded music was changing from vinyl to CDs.
> My take on the subject is that the dynamic range of the digital techniques
> exceeded the analog by a wide range you will not be able to discern the
> microprocessor noise at normal or even very high listening levels.
>
> Take a look at the dynamic range and MDS of modern hybrid (like the
> K3/K3S) receivers or good SDR receivers (like KX3 or KX2), in comparison to
> some of the best analog receivers, and you should find that the dynamic
> range is much greater (indicating its resistance to overload and distortion
> is greater). That increased dynamic range gives rise to a better MDS - in
> other words, it can hear weaker signals.
> The mathematics in the DSP code is not going to cause distortion unless
> the ADC is overloaded with a strong signal (good design says that should
> not happen).
>
> The Sherwood listings will verify what I am saying - yes, there are
> several analog tube-type radios in the Sherwood listing, but they are
> pretty far down the list.
>
> Any microprocessor noise should only be introduced in the audio section,
> and with good design, that should not happen either - oh yes, if you have
> very good ears, you might be able to hear some at a very low level if you
> turn the AF gain up all the way, but that is not a normal condition.
>
> If your ears feel that the tube audio gear is "warmer" than the solid
> state stuff, then consider that the tube gear generates some 2nd and 3rd
> order distortion which is normally what makes it sound "warmer". There are
> devices available for solid state audio which add a bit of that "warming
> sound" to better satisfy the ears of those who like to hear it.
>
> Certainly, the large speaker enclosures used with old tube-type radios
> sound much better than the small speakers in compact solid state radios, so
> please don't compare based on those speakers. Connect a good quality audio
> system to both radios if you want to make a comparison of that sort.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
>
> On 6/4/2018 8:49 AM, Henry Pollock - K4TMC wrote:
>
>> Yes, I would like to here what others can add to this thread. One of my
>> past hobbies was high-end tube audio electronics, and in numerous set-ups,
>> they sounded superior to solid-state equipment.
>>
>> So, my additional question would be...is the microprocessor
>> noise/distortion affecting the RF signal or just the AF signal, or both?
>>
>> 73,
>> Henry - K4TMC
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 7:46 PM, Ron Genovesi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I’m interested. Keep the thread going here
>>>
>>> Ron Genovesi
>>> Sent from My iPad
>>>
>>> On Jun 3, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Kjeld Holm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Bill,
>>>>
>>>> Parts of the answer can be found at
>>>> http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
>>>> search for Collins and you will get some 3 - 5 hits.
>>>>
>>>> Vy 73 de OZ1CCM, Kjeld
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: [hidden email]
>>>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill
>>>> Sent: 3. juni 2018 15:17
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> Subject: [Elecraft] Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver
>>>>
>>>> Discounting the digital capabilities such as memories, DSP, etc. and
>>>> only considering actual signal reception: I have had S-lines in the past
>>>> (dark dim past), so certainly am familier with them. However, as a point
>>>> of curiosity, how does the S-line compare to the K3 (only interested in
>>>> SSB). Basically, I am interested in how a top of the line analog
>>>> receiver does compares to a K3(S)? The question comes from a QSO
>>>> regarding the microprocessor noise of modern rigs covering and/or
>>>> distorting received signals. Offline response might be good for this, as
>>>> I am sure not many would be interested in the subject.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Bill W2BLC K-Line
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>>

Don Wilhelm

Re: Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

Henry,

I understand, but no matter, the thing that causes the "warm" sound for
tube amplifiers is the inherent 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion in the
output transformers. That is nigh-on to impossible to eliminate.
Solid state gear does not normally use output transformers.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/4/2018 10:19 AM, Henry Pollock - K4TMC wrote:

> Don,
>
> Thanks for the comments. Good points!
>
> And just to keep the thread from getting off track...my point of
> reference relative to tube audio is post 1995 era electronic and
> speaker designs, not the "old tube-type radio" and their associated
> speakers.
>
> 73,
> Henry - K4TMC
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> Henry,
>
> I believe you will find the arguments similar to those among
> audiophiles when recorded music was changing from vinyl to CDs.
> My take on the subject is that the dynamic range of the digital
> techniques exceeded the analog by a wide range you will not be
> able to discern the microprocessor noise at normal or even very
> high listening levels.
>
> Take a look at the dynamic range and MDS of modern hybrid (like
> the K3/K3S) receivers or good SDR receivers (like KX3 or KX2), in
> comparison to some of the best analog receivers, and you should
> find that the dynamic range is much greater (indicating its
> resistance to overload and distortion is greater). That increased
> dynamic range gives rise to a better MDS - in other words, it can
> hear weaker signals.
> The mathematics in the DSP code is not going to cause distortion
> unless the ADC is overloaded with a strong signal (good design
> says that should not happen).
>
> The Sherwood listings will verify what I am saying - yes, there
> are several analog tube-type radios in the Sherwood listing, but
> they are pretty far down the list.
>
> Any microprocessor noise should only be introduced in the audio
> section, and with good design, that should not happen either - oh
> yes, if you have very good ears, you might be able to hear some at
> a very low level if you turn the AF gain up all the way, but that
> is not a normal condition.
>
> If your ears feel that the tube audio gear is "warmer" than the
> solid state stuff, then consider that the tube gear generates some
> 2nd and 3rd order distortion which is normally what makes it sound
> "warmer". There are devices available for solid state audio which
> add a bit of that "warming sound" to better satisfy the ears of
> those who like to hear it.
>
> Certainly, the large speaker enclosures used with old tube-type
> radios sound much better than the small speakers in compact solid
> state radios, so please don't compare based on those speakers.
> Connect a good quality audio system to both radios if you want to
> make a comparison of that sort.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
>
> On 6/4/2018 8:49 AM, Henry Pollock - K4TMC wrote:
>
> Yes, I would like to here what others can add to this thread.
> One of my
> past hobbies was high-end tube audio electronics, and in
> numerous set-ups,
> they sounded superior to solid-state equipment.
>
> So, my additional question would be...is the microprocessor
> noise/distortion affecting the RF signal or just the AF
> signal, or both?
>
> 73,
> Henry - K4TMC
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 7:46 PM, Ron Genovesi
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> I’m interested. Keep the thread going here
>
> Ron Genovesi
> Sent from My iPad
>
> On Jun 3, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Kjeld Holm
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Bill,
>
> Parts of the answer can be found at
> http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
> <http://www.sherweng.com/table.html>
> search for Collins and you will get some 3 - 5 hits.
>
> Vy 73 de OZ1CCM, Kjeld
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>
> [mailto:[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>] On Behalf
> Of Bill
> Sent: 3. juni 2018 15:17
> To: [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Elecraft] Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver
>
> Discounting the digital capabilities such as memories,
> DSP, etc. and
> only considering actual signal reception: I have had
> S-lines in the past
> (dark dim past), so certainly am familier with them.
> However, as a point
> of curiosity, how does the S-line compare to the K3
> (only interested in
> SSB). Basically, I am interested in how a top of the
> line analog
> receiver does compares to a K3(S)? The question comes
> from a QSO
> regarding the microprocessor noise of modern rigs
> covering and/or
> distorting received signals. Offline response might be
> good for this, as
> I am sure not many would be interested in the subject.
>
> Thanks, Bill W2BLC K-Line
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
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Joseph Trombino, Jr

Re: Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

In reply to this post by Henry Pollock - K4TMC

Howdy Gang.

I recently sold my S-Line that had a 75S3C receiver in it and I’ve owned two K3’s and now a KX3 and KX2.

I gotta admit that the tube audio was much more pleasant to listen to as compared to the solid state rigs.

Can’t exactly say what the differences are but the tube audio sounded much “fuller and rounder” that the solid state gear.

Don’t know if that poor description helps, but there it is.

73, Joe W2KJ

> On Jun 4, 2018, at 8:49 AM, Henry Pollock - K4TMC <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yes, I would like to here what others can add to this thread. One of my
> past hobbies was high-end tube audio electronics, and in numerous set-ups,
> they sounded superior to solid-state equipment.
>
> So, my additional question would be...is the microprocessor
> noise/distortion affecting the RF signal or just the AF signal, or both?
>
> 73,
> Henry - K4TMC
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 7:46 PM, Ron Genovesi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I’m interested. Keep the thread going here
>>
>> Ron Genovesi
>> Sent from My iPad
>>
>>> On Jun 3, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Kjeld Holm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Bill,
>>>
>>> Parts of the answer can be found at
>>> http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
>>> search for Collins and you will get some 3 - 5 hits.
>>>
>>> Vy 73 de OZ1CCM, Kjeld
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill
>>> Sent: 3. juni 2018 15:17
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: [Elecraft] Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver
>>>
>>> Discounting the digital capabilities such as memories, DSP, etc. and
>>> only considering actual signal reception: I have had S-lines in the past
>>> (dark dim past), so certainly am familier with them. However, as a point
>>> of curiosity, how does the S-line compare to the K3 (only interested in
>>> SSB). Basically, I am interested in how a top of the line analog
>>> receiver does compares to a K3(S)? The question comes from a QSO
>>> regarding the microprocessor noise of modern rigs covering and/or
>>> distorting received signals. Offline response might be good for this, as
>>> I am sure not many would be interested in the subject.
>>>
>>> Thanks, Bill W2BLC K-Line
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>
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>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>> ______________________________________________________________
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

There is a clear and accurate technical reason. Musically pleasing to
our ears is the difference between an audio signal containing 2nd or
even order harmonics vs. a signal containing 3rd or odd order harmonics.

Even harmonics (i.e., second order harmonics) are considered to sound
fat and warm, although they can be muddy and soft sounding as well. Odd
harmonics (i.e., third order harmonics) are considered harsher and
edgier sounding. A pure square wave gives only odd harmonics. A pure
sawtooth wave gives both even and odd harmonics. A pure sine wave has
no harmonics other than the fundamental.

And now you know the rest of the story.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 6/4/2018 9:43 AM, Joseph Trombino, Jr wrote:

> Howdy Gang.
>
> I recently sold my S-Line that had a 75S3C receiver in it and I’ve owned two K3’s and now a KX3 and KX2.
>
> I gotta admit that the tube audio was much more pleasant to listen to as compared to the solid state rigs.
>
> Can’t exactly say what the differences are but the tube audio sounded much “fuller and rounder” that the solid state gear.
>
> Don’t know if that poor description helps, but there it is.
>
> 73, Joe W2KJ
>

David Christ

Re: Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

In reply to this post by Henry Pollock - K4TMC

I can’t find the article/reference right now, but I recall reading about an experiment that NBC/RCA/Bell Labs ran in the 1930s while developing Hi-FI. An Orchestra sat behind a curtain. Between the curtain and the orchestra was a physical acoustic filter that had the bandpass of a typical AM radio/speaker of the day. The filter could be switched in or out. The audience said the limited bandpass sounded more natural. This was attributed to people being used to the sound of the radio but not a live orchestra.

Those of us who grew up with the Collins/National/Hammarlund tube gear probably had our standard of how receivers should sound established by those units. The memory of the sights, smells, and sounds of our youth are with us forever.

David K0LUM

> On Jun 4, 2018, at 9:43 AM, Joseph Trombino, Jr <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Howdy Gang.
>
> I recently sold my S-Line that had a 75S3C receiver in it and I’ve owned two K3’s and now a KX3 and KX2.
>
> I gotta admit that the tube audio was much more pleasant to listen to as compared to the solid state rigs.
>
> Can’t exactly say what the differences are but the tube audio sounded much “fuller and rounder” that the solid state gear.
>
> Don’t know if that poor description helps, but there it is.
>
> 73, Joe W2KJ

Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

In reply to this post by Henry Pollock - K4TMC

Probably be like taking your 1967 Camaro out for a test drive It.
Even a bottom end econobox handles better these days.
(Maybe not as fast, but a helluva more "zippy".)

The S-Line was used in a different time and literally can't hold a candle to much of anything made in the 21st century.

Don't get me wrong, I LUV boatanchor radios, Collins especially, but their rating on Rob's list make it painfully clear as to their performance.

73, Charlie k3ICH

PS, Yes I DID own a 327/4spd 1967 Camaro convertible and my wife (girl-friend at the time) had '68 with the Bee-Nose stripe.
Mine had a 2.73:1 rear end and would bang the speedo past 120 MPH. 3 - 4 shift point was around 95 MPH.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Henry Pollock - K4TMC
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2018 8:49 AM
To: Ron Genovesi <[hidden email]>
Cc: Bill <[hidden email]>; Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

Yes, I would like to here what others can add to this thread. One of my past hobbies was high-end tube audio electronics, and in numerous set-ups, they sounded superior to solid-state equipment.

So, my additional question would be...is the microprocessor noise/distortion affecting the RF signal or just the AF signal, or both?

73,
Henry - K4TMC

On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 7:46 PM, Ron Genovesi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I’m interested. Keep the thread going here
>
> Ron Genovesi
> Sent from My iPad
>
> > On Jun 3, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Kjeld Holm <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Bill,
> >
> > Parts of the answer can be found at
> > http://www.sherweng.com/table.html
> > search for Collins and you will get some 3 - 5 hits.
> >
> > Vy 73 de OZ1CCM, Kjeld
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill
> > Sent: 3. juni 2018 15:17
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [Elecraft] Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver
> >
> > Discounting the digital capabilities such as memories, DSP, etc. and
> > only considering actual signal reception: I have had S-lines in the
> > past (dark dim past), so certainly am familier with them. However,
> > as a point of curiosity, how does the S-line compare to the K3 (only
> > interested in SSB). Basically, I am interested in how a top of the
> > line analog receiver does compares to a K3(S)? The question comes
> > from a QSO regarding the microprocessor noise of modern rigs
> > covering and/or distorting received signals. Offline response might
> > be good for this, as I am sure not many would be interested in the subject.
> >
> > Thanks, Bill W2BLC K-Line
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
> > email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> > [hidden email]
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
> > email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> > [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]

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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

In reply to this post by Bill-4

Rob Sherwood’s tables show that the 75S3B has about the lowest MDS of any receiver ever made.

The dancing 75S3B analog signal strength meter needle is more appealing to me than a row of LCD indicator segments.

The 75S3B tuning rate is pretty high compared to the K3(s).

Tubes can be found, but it takes effort.

The 75S3B first IF is very wide so all the selectivity is imposed by the mechanical filters in the 455 KHz IF. Thus, signals that can form IMD products are present at the 2nd mixer. Probably one reason for the 75S3B’s lower IMD performance.

Rob Sherwood’s papers show that the 32S3B transmitter has very low 2-tone IMD compared with most of the recent TX that use solid state drivers and finals.

Yes, I did have an S-Line station for 15 years, but now it is K-Line.

73,

Bob Rennard - N7WY
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Jim - N4ST

Re: Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

In reply to this post by Charlie T, K3ICH

Love my K3S and certainly wouldn't trade it.
But, if I could have an S-Line receiver AND the background noise environment of that era, I would trade.
The plethora of snap, crackle, pops and buzzes associated with endless switching power supplies, routers, TVs, etc. create listener fatigue.

_____________
73,
Jim - N4ST

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Charlie T
Sent: Monday, June 4, 2018 11:50
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

Probably be like taking your 1967 Camaro out for a test drive It.
Even a bottom end econobox handles better these days.
(Maybe not as fast, but a helluva more "zippy".)

The S-Line was used in a different time and literally can't hold a candle to much of anything made in the 21st century.

Don't get me wrong, I LUV boatanchor radios, Collins especially, but their rating on Rob's list make it painfully clear as to their performance.

73, Charlie k3ICH

PS, Yes I DID own a 327/4spd 1967 Camaro convertible and my wife (girl-friend at the time) had '68 with the Bee-Nose stripe.
Mine had a 2.73:1 rear end and would bang the speedo past 120 MPH. 3 - 4 shift point was around 95 MPH.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Henry Pollock - K4TMC
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2018 8:49 AM
To: Ron Genovesi <[hidden email]>
Cc: Bill <[hidden email]>; Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

Yes, I would like to here what others can add to this thread. One of my past hobbies was high-end tube audio electronics, and in numerous set-ups, they sounded superior to solid-state equipment.

So, my additional question would be...is the microprocessor noise/distortion affecting the RF signal or just the AF signal, or both?

73,
Henry - K4TMC

On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 7:46 PM, Ron Genovesi <[hidden email]> wrote:

<SNIP>

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Wes Stewart-2

Re: Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

In reply to this post by Charlie T, K3ICH

I bought a new '69 Plymouth Roadrunner 383 cid AT. Historic data say that its
0-60 mph time was 7.3 seconds and the quarter mile time was 14.7.

A week ago I bought a 2018 VW GTI 2.0L DCT. Motor Trend says 0-60 is 6.0 and
14.5 seconds for the 1/4 mile.

The Plymouth was hard pressed to stop from 60 mph, didn't handle and had
Chrysler reliability, i.e. none. People still lust for them. The only old car
I wish I still owned was a '56 Corvette.

Wes N7WS

ps. My other car is a '09 Pontiac G8 GT.

On 6/4/2018 8:49 AM, Charlie T wrote:

> Probably be like taking your 1967 Camaro out for a test drive It.
> Even a bottom end econobox handles better these days.
> (Maybe not as fast, but a helluva more "zippy".)
>
> The S-Line was used in a different time and literally can't hold a candle to much of anything made in the 21st century.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I LUV boatanchor radios, Collins especially, but their rating on Rob's list make it painfully clear as to their performance.
>
> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>
>
> PS, Yes I DID own a 327/4spd 1967 Camaro convertible and my wife (girl-friend at the time) had '68 with the Bee-Nose stripe.
> Mine had a 2.73:1 rear end and would bang the speedo past 120 MPH. 3 - 4 shift point was around 95 MPH.

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

In reply to this post by Joseph Trombino, Jr

On 2018-06-04 10:43 AM, Joseph Trombino, Jr wrote:
> I gotta admit that the tube audio was much more pleasant to listen
> to as compared to the solid state rigs.

The tube receivers had audio output stages capable of several (> 10)
watts output - typically run in class A or AB. Modern solid state
receivers are generally more limited in output (the K3 output amp
is rated for 3.1 Watts into a 4 Ohm load).

When the solid state amp is run anywhere near the power output of the
tube amplifier the THD+N rises dramatically. For example, the K3
audio amplifier is already 1% TND+N at just 1 Watt into an 8 Ohm
load!

Put a quality 25 W (per channel) amplifier and pair of 8" diameter
speakers on the K3 and I suspect one would be hard put to distinguish
between the S-line receiver and K3 receiver in terms of tonal quality
and distortion. The K3 would certainly have fewer RF/IF distortion
products.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

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Ronnie Hull

Re: Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

Just so happens I’m in the market for a 75S3B if anyone has a clean operational unit for sale

W5SUM

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 4, 2018, at 2:03 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-06-04 10:43 AM, Joseph Trombino, Jr wrote:
>> I gotta admit that the tube audio was much more pleasant to listen
>> to as compared to the solid state rigs.
>
> The tube receivers had audio output stages capable of several (> 10)
> watts output - typically run in class A or AB. Modern solid state
> receivers are generally more limited in output (the K3 output amp
> is rated for 3.1 Watts into a 4 Ohm load).
>
> When the solid state amp is run anywhere near the power output of the
> tube amplifier the THD+N rises dramatically. For example, the K3
> audio amplifier is already 1% TND+N at just 1 Watt into an 8 Ohm
> load!
>
> Put a quality 25 W (per channel) amplifier and pair of 8" diameter
> speakers on the K3 and I suspect one would be hard put to distinguish
> between the S-line receiver and K3 receiver in terms of tonal quality
> and distortion. The K3 would certainly have fewer RF/IF distortion
> products.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Edward R Cole

Re: Compare: K3 to Collins S-line receiver

In reply to this post by Bill-4

I feed my K3 speaker output direct to an old ten-inch National Radio
speaker, which simply mounted in a metal speaker box and open on the
back. Like the sound better than new modern speakers (amplified or not).

But I confess to running Western Mountain COMspkr's with my KX3 or my
900-MHz surplus MOT Spectra. I set the tone (Hi Cut) knob to treble
on the COMspkr's.

Never had a Collin's radio. The 75A4 was new when I began ham radio*
and the Engineering Dept. at MSU had the newest s-line stuff in
1960's. I operated the VHF transceiver (KWM-2?) a little bit.

73, Ed - KL7UW
*my first receiver was a Knight Ocean Hopper (kit) and then a
HQ100C. After college it was a Clegg Interceptor-B with HF convertor.

Put a quality 25 W (per channel) amplifier and pair of 8" diameter
speakers on the K3 and I suspect one would be hard put to distinguish
between the S-line receiver and K3 receiver in terms of tonal quality
and distortion. The K3 would certainly have fewer RF/IF distortion
products.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
[hidden email]

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