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Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

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rgconner

Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

Dear Elecraft,

Right now there is no currently produced solution for a harsh condition, i.e. vibration, dust, moisture rated that is more versatile/powerful than a hand held 2m/70cm 5w unit suitable for mounting on say, handlebars of a motorcycle or atv.
Please take into consideration cooling issues and variable power supply as well.

I would gladly pay the current price + 10% to 20% premium for a hardened unit. More would depend on the feature set.

Thanks, and maybe I could torture test a unit for you...

vk2rq

Re: Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

If you are looking for a 2m/70cm mobile rig with more than 5W output (eg. 50W?) to stay in touch with your buddies in the convoy, then the KX3 is simply the wrong solution. Even CB may be a better fit, except for the power/range requirement. After your ride, if you want to set up camp, throw up an antenna and work some HF, then the KX3 is great for that. It's about using the right tool for the right job.

73, Matt VK2RQ

> On 5 May 2014, at 4:28 am, rgconner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Dear Elecraft,
>
> Right now there is no currently produced solution for a harsh condition,
> i.e. vibration, dust, moisture rated that is more versatile/powerful than a
> hand held 2m/70cm 5w unit suitable for mounting on say, handlebars of a
> motorcycle or atv.
> Please take into consideration cooling issues and variable power supply as
> well.
>
> I would gladly pay the current price + 10% to 20% premium for a hardened
> unit. More would depend on the feature set.
>
> Thanks, and maybe I could torture test a unit for you...
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Could-you-make-a-Element-vibration-hardend-VX3-tp7588524.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Mike Morrow-3

Re: Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

In reply to this post by rgconner

>> Please take into consideration cooling issues and variable power supply as
>> well.
>>
>> I would gladly pay the current price + 10% to 20% premium for a hardened
>> unit. More would depend on the feature set.

Have you any experience with such industrial design? That generous 20 percent
premium that you offer is laughable. Try 200 percent...it's much more realistic
for what you ask.

Mike / KK5F
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rgconner

Re: Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

In reply to this post by vk2rq

You must not use CB, or maybe it is just where I live, but if you try and use any channel on the CB the yahoos drown you out.

REmeber, any yahoo can use CB, but a HAM operator has to pass a test. That appears to weed out the yahoos.

I am amazed by all the things this radio does, and does well, but it is apparently a delicate wallflower in everyones opinion.

Maybe it is, I am reluctant to shell out $1000 to prove it right or wrong.

rgconner

Re: Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

Starting to be sorry I asked.

On May 4, 2014, at 4:50 PM, Walter Underwood <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It isn't a delicate wallflower, but it is a pretty expensive and complicated way to get 3W on 2m FM. And it isn't really designed for general-purpose 2m use. Will it have automatic repeater offsets on 2m? Maybe not.
>
> With a dual-band mobile, you can use a high-gain 440 antenna. You'll also have at least 10X the power that the KX3 could produce.
>
> A 2M mobile radio is under $200, and a basic dual-band mobile is under $400.
>
> wunder
> K6WRU
>
> On May 4, 2014, at 3:17 PM, rgconner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> You must not use CB, or maybe it is just where I live, but if you try and use
>> any channel on the CB the yahoos drown you out.
>>
>> REmeber, any yahoo can use CB, but a HAM operator has to pass a test. That
>> appears to weed out the yahoos.
>>
>> I am amazed by all the things this radio does, and does well, but it is
>> apparently a delicate wallflower in everyones opinion.
>>
>> Maybe it is, I am reluctant to shell out $1000 to prove it right or wrong.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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rgconner

Re: Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

Well, I guess that is why the FT-10 failed. $250 dollar handheld in a $500 case? or a $1000 radio in a $500 case?

wayne burdick

Re: Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

Administrator

In reply to this post by rgconner

It was a perfectly valid question, Russell. "Hardening" the KX3 would be useful for high-vibration applications, but definitely on the expensive side. I'm not sure we could justify the engineering time or that we'd have a large enough market for it.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On May 4, 2014, at 4:51 PM, Russell Conner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Starting to be sorry I asked.
>
> On May 4, 2014, at 4:50 PM, Walter Underwood <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> It isn't a delicate wallflower, but it is a pretty expensive and complicated way to get 3W on 2m FM. And it isn't really designed for general-purpose 2m use. Will it have automatic repeater offsets on 2m? Maybe not.
>>
>> With a dual-band mobile, you can use a high-gain 440 antenna. You'll also have at least 10X the power that the KX3 could produce.
>>
>> A 2M mobile radio is under $200, and a basic dual-band mobile is under $400.
>>
>> wunder
>> K6WRU
>>
>> On May 4, 2014, at 3:17 PM, rgconner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> You must not use CB, or maybe it is just where I live, but if you try and use
>>> any channel on the CB the yahoos drown you out.
>>>
>>> REmeber, any yahoo can use CB, but a HAM operator has to pass a test. That
>>> appears to weed out the yahoos.
>>>
>>> I am amazed by all the things this radio does, and does well, but it is
>>> apparently a delicate wallflower in everyones opinion.
>>>
>>> Maybe it is, I am reluctant to shell out $1000 to prove it right or wrong.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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rgconner

Re: Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

I understand, I have an electronics background too, just like I'd imagine
anyone attracted to your fine product. I can see the time and passion you
put into your product.

You could have come back and said "we are working on it" or "It is most of
the way there, it just is not water resistant" or "We know someone who has
a modification guide" I figured no harm in asking.... boy was I wrong.

Unfortunately, this thread, and the other thread, have convinced me I have
to pass on your excellent product.

Makes me a very sad HAM.

On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It was a perfectly valid question, Russell. "Hardening" the KX3 would be
> useful for high-vibration applications, but definitely on the expensive
> side. I'm not sure we could justify the engineering time or that we'd have
> a large enough market for it.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> On May 4, 2014, at 4:51 PM, Russell Conner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Starting to be sorry I asked.
> >
> > On May 4, 2014, at 4:50 PM, Walter Underwood <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> It isn't a delicate wallflower, but it is a pretty expensive and
> complicated way to get 3W on 2m FM. And it isn't really designed for
> general-purpose 2m use. Will it have automatic repeater offsets on 2m?
> Maybe not.
> >>
> >> With a dual-band mobile, you can use a high-gain 440 antenna. You'll
> also have at least 10X the power that the KX3 could produce.
> >>
> >> A 2M mobile radio is under $200, and a basic dual-band mobile is under
> $400.
> >>
> >> wunder
> >> K6WRU
> >>
> >> On May 4, 2014, at 3:17 PM, rgconner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> You must not use CB, or maybe it is just where I live, but if you try
> and use
> >>> any channel on the CB the yahoos drown you out.
> >>>
> >>> REmeber, any yahoo can use CB, but a HAM operator has to pass a test.
> That
> >>> appears to weed out the yahoos.
> >>>
> >>> I am amazed by all the things this radio does, and does well, but it is
> >>> apparently a delicate wallflower in everyones opinion.
> >>>
> >>> Maybe it is, I am reluctant to shell out $1000 to prove it right or
> wrong.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
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> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
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>

Jim Brown-10

Re: Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

On 5/4/2014 5:41 PM, Russell Conner wrote:
> You could have come back and said "we are working on it" or "It is most of
> the way there, it just is not water resistant" or "We know someone who has
> a modification guide" I figured no harm in asking.... boy was I wrong.

Russell,

You're being unfair. You got a direct response (and on the weekend, too)
from Wayne, N6KR, one of the two OWNERS of Elecraft, and who is the
designer of the KX3. Try that with any other company. His response was
honest, direct, and not at all unreasonable. He understands the market
for his products, he understands the cost of a "hardened" radio, and he
knows that his customers don't need it and certainly would be unwilling
to pay the high added cost. I suspect that, with your electronics
background, if you looked at the radio in question, you would agree.

Elecraft is a small company, they make a small range of products, all
primarly aimed at the HF ham bands, all are designed and built in the
US, and they don't sell through dealers that add cost to the consumer.

73, Jim K9YC
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k6dgw

Re: Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

In reply to this post by vk2rq

On 5/4/2014 2:47 PM, Matt VK2RQ wrote:

> After your ride, if you want to set
> up camp, throw up an antenna and work some HF, then the KX3 is great
> for that. It's about using the right tool for the right job.

I believe he said he had just passed his Technician license, somewhat
limiting on HF. I'll agree with all the rest, KX3 is not the
recommended radio. A large group of hams provide comm support for the
Western States Endurance Run and the Tevis Cup Endurance Ride on parts
of the historic Western States Trail from Sacramento to Salt Lake City
in the Sierra Nevada. Very rugged territory, we use a lot of repeaters,
but simplex VHF works very well with HT's over 5-7 mi ranges.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
- www.cqp.org

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Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT

Re: Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

On 5/4/2014 6:13 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> Elecraft is a small company, they make a small range of products, all
> primarly aimed at the HF ham bands, all are designed and built in the
> US, and they don't sell through dealers that add cost to the consumer.
Russell is also being unfair in that he's trying to use a radio designed
for very long range if and when propagation is good, and use it for very
reliable short range (under 30 miles?) communication and it doesn't
cover the frequencies that are well suited for that.

Several decades on 2m and 1.25m tells me that what Phil says is true: he
should be able to get 30 miles (or more) reliably in all but the
twistiest terrain.

Then he seems to be upset that we tell him that it's a great radio but
not for what he wants it to do.

... and he compares the KX3 to a Galaxy S4. There are probably more
Galaxy S4 phones sold in a week than HF radios sold new in a full year
(by all manufacturers worldwide). Samsung can spread their R&D costs
across far many more devices -- and families of devices.

Russell, we're sorry if you didn't like the advice. We all want you to
get something that works for what you need. We're trying to help.

73 -- Lynn
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rgconner

Re: Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

In reply to this post by k6dgw

Yes, but I have at least 2 Generals and an extra class in the group... I
can give them control of the rig and use their license at camp, yes?

On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 6:40 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 5/4/2014 2:47 PM, Matt VK2RQ wrote:
>
> After your ride, if you want to set
>> up camp, throw up an antenna and work some HF, then the KX3 is great
>> for that. It's about using the right tool for the right job.
>>
>
> I believe he said he had just passed his Technician license, somewhat
> limiting on HF. I'll agree with all the rest, KX3 is not the recommended
> radio. A large group of hams provide comm support for the Western States
> Endurance Run and the Tevis Cup Endurance Ride on parts of the historic
> Western States Trail from Sacramento to Salt Lake City in the Sierra
> Nevada. Very rugged territory, we use a lot of repeaters, but simplex VHF
> works very well with HT's over 5-7 mi ranges.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
> - www.cqp.org
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

rgconner

Re: Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

In reply to this post by Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT

No, I hear that part about the high bands, I get that part now that someone
has said it. I now understand the radio restrictions, and that the 2m
module is going to be very low power.

"Several decades on 2m and 1.25m tells me that what Phil says is true: he
should be able to get 30 miles (or more) reliably in all but the twistiest
terrain."

Except I keep saying over and over we ARE IN THOSE TWISTIES.
and the hand helds are effective only part of the time. And yet, no one
seems to be listening to me on that point. It gets frustrating. Hell, I am
very frustrated.

having people tell me "use CB", "use 5w" over and over when I have said
those solutions are not meeting the requirements is frustrating, yes?

On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 6:44 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 5/4/2014 6:13 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>
>> Elecraft is a small company, they make a small range of products, all
>> primarly aimed at the HF ham bands, all are designed and built in the US,
>> and they don't sell through dealers that add cost to the consumer.
>>
> Russell is also being unfair in that he's trying to use a radio designed
> for very long range if and when propagation is good, and use it for very
> reliable short range (under 30 miles?) communication and it doesn't cover
> the frequencies that are well suited for that.
>
> Several decades on 2m and 1.25m tells me that what Phil says is true: he
> should be able to get 30 miles (or more) reliably in all but the twistiest
> terrain.
>
> Then he seems to be upset that we tell him that it's a great radio but not
> for what he wants it to do.
>
> ... and he compares the KX3 to a Galaxy S4. There are probably more
> Galaxy S4 phones sold in a week than HF radios sold new in a full year (by
> all manufacturers worldwide). Samsung can spread their R&D costs across
> far many more devices -- and families of devices.
>
> Russell, we're sorry if you didn't like the advice. We all want you to
> get something that works for what you need. We're trying to help.
>
> 73 -- Lynn
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

rgconner

Re: Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Wayne, looking at how well your unit is put together and designed, (and I
work with a lot of IBM Mainframe/RS600 gear from the last 30 years, so I
know good engineering when I see it) I am pretty sure that I could build a
sealed, finned, aluminum case with rubber standoffs, and a flexible plastic
cover to protect the buttons and provide some sealing around the knobs.

I have a Maker Shed nearby with a 3d scanner and CNC lathe + laser cutter,
so I could certainly make myself one, but unlikely to be commercially
viable, as you point out.

maybe I will be ready for such a challenge in a few months.

On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT

Re: Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

In reply to this post by rgconner

On 5/4/2014 6:49 PM, Russell Conner wrote:
> "Several decades on 2m and 1.25m tells me that what Phil says is true:
> he should be able to get 30 miles (or more) reliably in all but the
> twistiest terrain."
>
> Except I keep saying over and over we ARE IN THOSE TWISTIES.
> and the hand helds are effective only part of the time. And yet, no
> one seems to be listening to me on that point. It gets frustrating.
> Hell, I am very frustrated.

We're frustrated too.

I never told you that your handheld would absolutely work. In fact,
I'll tell you flat out that when you're in the twisties, the only
sure-fire solution is to put a repeater where it can see all of the
twisties. Depending on the twisties, you might need more than one
repeater, crosslinked.

I don't know if anyone else on this list is (or was) into VHF Amateur
Radio Direction Finding (T-Hunting) as practiced in Southern
California. I can tell you from several years of working my way to the
top of that aspect of the hobby that we consistently found places that
lead the competition into the twisties where they lost the signal, and
sometimes never found their way out.

T-Hunting is scored by driving distance, and one night we set up a hunt
where the winner drove 50 miles (straight line was about 20 miles) and
fourth place drove 110 miles.

If you're looking up at the terrain, talking to someone beyond the ridge
is going to be nearly impossible. If you're in a hole, talking to
someone outside the hole is just not going to work.

You can't get what you want. You can get 95% of it, and you can get
better than you're doing with 5 watts. I'm trying to get you to think
about your antennas and how they work because I think you can get some
improvement there, and that's usually fairly inexpensive.

... and I pointed out the Motorcycle Amateur Radio Club because they're
likely far more expert at your specific needs than I. I don't ride.

We saved you from buying a very nice, very trick, slightly expensive
radio that will do a lot, but will not work as well for you as a
high-power 2 meter rig that costs much less. I also spent some time
tracking down an example of an amplifier, and a link to the antenna
pages on the MARC web site.

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Raymond Sills

Re: Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

In reply to this post by k6dgw

Well, as Wayne, said... it could be done, but would hardly be worth
doing so as a business venture. Maybe the Air Force will come along
with a big contract for MIL-spec KX3s. Or not.

And, as much as I love the KX3, it's not the tool for the job for
group communication on a bike run. Anymore than a Goldwing is the
right bike for someone who needs to travel to some campus classrooms
two or three times a week, that are on the on the other side of town.
A scooter would do that job just fine.

73 de Ray
K2ULR
KX3 #211

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mcduffie

Re: Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

In reply to this post by rgconner

On Sun, 4 May 2014 18:49:42 -0700, Russell Conner wrote:

> Except I keep saying over and over we ARE IN THOSE TWISTIES.
> and the hand helds are effective only part of the time. And yet, no one
> seems to be listening to me on that point. It gets frustrating. Hell, I am
> very frustrated.

You're also missing a point. What you are asking is nearly impossible. Low
band (six meters) works fairly well for that, but it takes a little power (that
will cost you with the MC electrical system), and reasonable antenna (1/4 wave
or so). I've seen it work in mountainous terrain, and heavily wooded areas,
something that 70cm and even 2m don't do well without help. Decades ago, the
law enforcement community found the answer, and they implemented it. It takes
mountain top repeaters to cover things properly. Even then, you'll have some
dead spots, depending on terrain.

You seem to know little about propagation, and unwilling to accept that there
isn't always a good answer for your situation. The best you can do is choose
the right frequency for the job to be done, that of covering everything between
the front of the pack and the rear of the pack, and then do the best you can do
to get that job done. That means the best antennas you can find, the highest
power you can run, and training your operators to know what to do to make the
best of them. Obviously, there is a practical limit to all of those things and
what you can do because of cost, size, environmental concerns, electrical
capacity, etc.

Do your best, and deal with the rest.

Gary - AG0N
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rgconner

Re: Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

Let me worry about the power provided by the bike, make recommendations
based on my actual requirements. We are doing short 15 sec info and
commands every 5 to 15 minutes, not rehearsing Hamlet over the air.

1/4 wave is only 1.5 meters, six feet. Need to flip it over when I get in
the garage, but doable

Power? could power a enough watts to fry me where I sat on the bike.

I know repeaters are the answer, but 5w on 2m, 70cm won't open them unless
I am right on them, under 20 miles.

10w on 6m sounded like it would give us better coverage without going to
25w on 2m or 70cm.

Maybe not, I think at this point I have settled on the FT-60 with a 25-35w
amp in the back.

Much cheaper, ~$200 for the amp, already have the HT and the proper Diamond
1/2 antenna.
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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: Could you make a Element/vibration hardend VX3?

Administrator

In reply to this post by mcduffie

Folks - Let's end this thread for now. Its morphing way OT and is also exceeding
the single topic limit for this splinter off of the original thread.

73,

Eric
List Moderator
elecraft.com

On 5/4/2014 8:20 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> On Sun, 4 May 2014 18:49:42 -0700, Russell Conner wrote:
>
>> Except I keep saying over and over we ARE IN THOSE TWISTIES.
>> and the hand helds are effective only part of the time. And yet, no one
>> seems to be listening to me on that point. It gets frustrating. Hell, I am
>> very frustrated.
> You're also missing a point. What you are asking is nearly impossible. Low
> band (six meters) works fairly well for that, but it takes a little power (that
> will cost you with the MC electrical system), and reasonable antenna (1/4 wave
> or so). I've seen it work in mountainous terrain, and heavily wooded areas,
> something that 70cm and even 2m don't do well without help. Decades ago, the
> law enforcement community found the answer, and they implemented it. It takes
> mountain top repeaters to cover things properly. Even then, you'll have some
> dead spots, depending on terrain.
>
> You seem to know little about propagation, and unwilling to accept that there
> isn't always a good answer for your situation. The best you can do is choose
> the right frequency for the job to be done, that of covering everything between
> the front of the pack and the rear of the pack, and then do the best you can do
> to get that job done. That means the best antennas you can find, the highest
> power you can run, and training your operators to know what to do to make the
> best of them. Obviously, there is a practical limit to all of those things and
> what you can do because of cost, size, environmental concerns, electrical
> capacity, etc.
>
> Do your best, and deal with the rest.
>
> Gary - AG0N
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