D104 mic
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Anyone ever use a D-104 (non amp) on a K3. How does it sound?
Chris W7CTH ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Chris,
Unmodified, it will probably sound terrible (very 'bright with lots of highs, weak lows), but with a bit of work, it will sound great - just like Astatic intended. The D-104 element is either crystal or ceramic, and wants to work into a high impedance (like the grid of a vacuum tube with a 1 megohm 'grid leak' resistor) load. Modern transceivers present a much lower impedance load (nominally 600 ohms). I have seen some comments that the simple insertion of a 1 megohm resistor in series with the AF line is all that is needed. That may be the first thing to try. I strongly suggest you use the K3 monitor function with the K3 in TEST mode and record your audio on the computer - listen to the recording to see what it sounds like (that is almost impossible to judge while listening With a single FET buffer or an op amp between the D-104 and the K3 (or any other transceiver), the D-104 will "come to life" just as it did with the old vacuum tube rigs. An op amp solution is a natural because the characteristic of an op amp is very high input impedance and low output impedance - perfect for the D-104. An LM358 wired as a unity gain buffer should do the job nicely, and for the voltage swings involved (small) the LM358 can be powered from the +8 volts available at the front microphone jack pin 6. If you would want to use the rear microphone jack, the FET solution would be better because the voltage to drive the FET can be supplied by turning bias on. I am not going to give you a circuit diagram because I have not developed and tried it out. There is another solution - that is to replace the original element with an electret element, or with a Heil HC-4 or HC-5 element (Heil offers a kit for that). 73, Don W3FPR Chris Hembree wrote: > Anyone ever use a D-104 (non amp) on a K3. How does it sound? > Chris W7CTH > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Chris W7CTH
Hi, Chris,
Heil makes a conversion kit for the D-104. I am using it and have had great results. If you would like more information, please see my eHam review at http://www.eham.net/reviews/review/65769 73, John, WA6L |
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In reply to this post by Chris W7CTH
It will sound great if you add a J310 or similar JFET source follower. Very
flat clean response. A source follower is very simple. Use a low voltage .01 uF or .05 uF disc cap to the gate. Use a 100k to 1 meg ohm resistor from gate to ground. Put a 560 ohm source resistor to ground, and couple the source to the K3 through a .47 uF cap. The drain is bypassed and decoupled to a 9 volt battery or clean 12 volt supply. If you have a lot of RF you might need to decouple the audio output line. The size of the gate resistor will control loading on the D104 and the frequency response. The higher the resistance the more the low frequency response. Until I started using a Sennheiser computer headset I used a D104 head on all my rigs. 73 Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Hembree" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 7:11 PM Subject: [Elecraft] D104 mic > Anyone ever use a D-104 (non amp) on a K3. How does it sound? > Chris W7CTH > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
Unmodified, it will probably sound terrible (very 'bright with lots of > highs, weak lows), but with a bit of work, it will sound great - just > like Astatic intended. > My experience is different. When I first got my K3, I used an unmodified crystal-element D-104 I've had since 1956. No amps, no anything. I didn't do anything special with the K3 except adjust gain and ALC controls per the K3 manual. On the air checks with guru K9YC and on the 3830 net after an NCCC Sprint resulted in superb voice-quality reports. So, plug it in and give it a try (with on-the-air checks from people you trust). 73, Hank, W6SX Mammoth Lakes, California Elevation 8083 feet in John Muir's Range of Light ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by W8JI
> Use a 100k to 1 meg ohm resistor from gate to ground. Put a
> 560 ohm source resistor to ground, and couple the source to the K3 through > a > .47 uF cap. I agree with comments from Tom and Don. However, the "leak" resistor from the FET's gate to ground usually isn't necessary as the crystal cartridge itself often provides ample leak to bias the FET. The source resistor can be calculated to set mid-point bias a bit more precisely by taking the reciprocal of the FET's transconductance (gm or gfs) value. For example, the Fairchild MPF-102 is specified with a gm value between 2000 uS and 5000 uS. The geometric mean of those values is about 3,000 uS. The reciprocal value is 333. So, a 330-ohm source resistor to ground is a good choice when the actual gm value is unknown. I would stay away from op-amp solutions for a number of reasons: First, unless a bi-polar supply is used, a voltage divider must normally be set up to bias the op-amp's non-inverting input, and consequently, the op-amp output to half the supply voltage. However, some op-amps are designed to operate from single supplies, contain internal dividers, and require no external divider components. Second, the parts count can get to be quite a bit more than a single FET. Finally, unless a JFET-input op-amp or biFET op-amp is used (e.g., Texas Instruments TL071), obtaining stable operation and achieving a high input Z into the megohm range is pretty difficult. The biFET designs can more easily achieve this. As Don pointed out, some folks use a 1 to 5 meg resistor between the D-104 cartridge and the low-Z input of a transceiver. That re-establishes balance in frequency response from the cartridge but it also sets up a very asymmetric voltage divider, the equivalent of which is a pot with its wiper arm nearly at ground potential. Often, the result is low level and poor audio SNR. All things considered (RF immunity, single supply, low parts count, low current, super high input Z, and very low output Z), it's pretty hard to beat a single FET when used as a source follower with crystal mics. Although I do own a condenser mic, my primary mic is ca. 1935 Shure 70H crystal type with a JFET interface. With that combination, response is reasonably flat to about 80 Hz. Paul, W9AC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by W8JI
On Fri, 9 Jul 2010 20:47:36 -0400, Tom W8JI wrote:
>It will sound great if you add a J310 or similar JFET source follower. Hams spend WAY too much time hand-wringing about impedance matching in audio circuits. Audio circuits have not been impedance matched for nearly 50 years! As long as the input Z of the preamp is not so low that it loads the mic severely, everything should be fine. The input Z of the K3 mic circuit is on the order of 10K. That's pretty high, and most mics ought to be quite happy with it. For a passive mic, the downside of excessive loading is usually some modification of the frequency response, some loss of level, but no distortion. TXEQ can easily fix any response problems, and the K3 has plenty of mic gain to make up for any loss. Tom's advice is solid if it's a VERY high Z mic, BUT it may also depend on the version of D104 that you have. I haven't played with a D104 for nearly 40 years, so don't know enough about that to have an opinion that matters. :) I would first try it straight into the K3 as Hank did, adjust levels per Elecraft intructions, then get someone with good audio ears to talk you into TXEQ settings on the air. If you can't make it sound right, then follow Tom's advice and build the follower circuit. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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I like a microphone that has proper level and response so I don't need to
run gain up near full open and works with any rig without cranking the lows up ten or 15 dB, thus the reason the reason my D104 has a source follower that makes the mic output Z lower than the radio input Z so it appears as a voltage source. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] D104 mic > On Fri, 9 Jul 2010 20:47:36 -0400, Tom W8JI wrote: > >>It will sound great if you add a J310 or similar JFET source follower. > > Hams spend WAY too much time hand-wringing about impedance matching in > audio circuits. Audio circuits have not been impedance matched for > nearly 50 years! As long as the input Z of the preamp is not so low > that it loads the mic severely, everything should be fine. The input Z > of the K3 mic circuit is on the order of 10K. That's pretty high, and > most mics ought to be quite happy with it. > > For a passive mic, the downside of excessive loading is usually some > modification of the frequency response, some loss of level, but no > distortion. TXEQ can easily fix any response problems, and the K3 has > plenty of mic gain to make up for any loss. > > Tom's advice is solid if it's a VERY high Z mic, BUT it may also depend > on the version of D104 that you have. I haven't played with a D104 for > nearly 40 years, so don't know enough about that to have an opinion > that matters. :) I would first try it straight into the K3 as Hank did, > adjust levels per Elecraft intructions, then get someone with good > audio ears to talk you into TXEQ settings on the air. If you can't make > it sound right, then follow Tom's advice and build the follower > circuit. > > 73, Jim K9YC > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by WA6L
This will probably end up qualifying for the lamest question ever asked but I would really like to get on the air for IARU.
I just set up my K3 in a new location after Field Day and I've been working the digital modes no problem. I switched over to USB on 20m this morning and plugged in my Heil ProSet and... no audio into the K3. I checked the obvious - mic gain, monitor gain, connections, etc but no joy - I cannot budge the ACL meter and nothing heard in my monitor. PTT is working just no audio into the radio. I even tried a different mic into the front panel jack (Obviously switching to the front panel input) and same result, no audio. I double checked that the Line In is still delivering audio and it is. Just nothing via the mic inputs. Any ideas about what stupid thing I'm doing? TIA 73 de Eric, KG6MZS ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by WA6L
I'm using one too. It Works great, good reports and is easy to install.
Plus, the D104 is a beautiful mike. Hi, Chris, Heil makes a conversion kit for the D-104. I am using it and have had great results. If you would like more information, please see my eHam review at http://www.eham.net/reviews/review/65769 73, John, WA6L -- ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3: No Audio into FP or RP Mic?
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In reply to this post by hank_stamper
Eric,
Does the Heil ProSet need bias on to work?? I don't have one, but remember someone else having that problem, I think. 73, Don, WB5HAK ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3: No Audio into FP or RP Mic?
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Only the one with the iC element, which we sell as the Proset-K2 (for
the K2 and K3). The Heil HC4, HC5 and Goldline dynamic elements do not need bias turned on. 73, Eric _..._ On 7/10/2010 9:59 AM, Don Cunningham wrote: > Eric, > Does the Heil ProSet need bias on to work?? I don't have one, but remember > someone else having that problem, I think. > 73, > Don, WB5HAK > > __ > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3: No Audio into FP or RP Mic?
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In reply to this post by Don Cunningham
Hi Don,
Thanks for the reply. It was working fine on whatever setting the bias was on before Field Day. Also the same thing happens with a Kenwood MC-60 plugged into the front panel jack after switching to that input. Only my computer's sound card seems to move the ALC meter via the Line In input. I have memory settings for digital and SSB on each band so the inputs, mode and the like get switched with the memory. 73 de Eric, KG6MZS On Jul 10, 2010, at 9:59 AM, Don Cunningham wrote: > Eric, > Does the Heil ProSet need bias on to work?? I don't have one, but remember someone else having that problem, I think. > 73, > Don, WB5HAK > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Bob Stevens-2
I forgot to add that the element in the mic conversion is the HC5
-----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob Stevens Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 11:49 AM To: 'WA6L'; [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] D104 mic I'm using one too. It Works great, good reports and is easy to install. Plus, the D104 is a beautiful mike. Hi, Chris, Heil makes a conversion kit for the D-104. I am using it and have had great results. If you would like more information, please see my eHam review at http://www.eham.net/reviews/review/65769 73, John, WA6L -- ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by hank_stamper
Hi, Eric,
I think you posted this to me instead of to the Elecraft reflector. I am just about the worst person you could ask about this, as I work 99.9% CW and digital modes and almost never connect a mic. You might want to repost it to the reflector.
Good luck and 73, John, WA6L On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 9:56 AM, Eric Fitzgerald-2 [via Elecraft] <[hidden email]> wrote: This will probably end up qualifying for the lamest question ever asked but I would really like to get on the air for IARU. |
Re: K3: No Audio into FP or RP Mic?
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In reply to this post by hank_stamper
Hi Mike;
Thanks for the reply. My memory presets switch the MIC SEL to rear panel, so MIC+LIN setting doesn't matter as you noted. Just for grins I just tried it both ways with no joy. I'm sure this is a really stupid thing I am doing but I just can't figure it out. What is maddening is that I had this all set up and working fine before Field Day. 73 de Eric, KG6MZS On Jul 10, 2010, at 12:05 PM, Mike Kravitz wrote: > Hi Eric, > > If you leave CONFIG:MIC SEL showing LINE mode you also must have MIC+LIN turned on. (It's a MENU item, not a CONFIG item). If you don't need line-in, just turn the CONFIG:MIC SEL to either FP or RP. > > 73, > Mike K2MK > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Bob Stevens-2
I know a lot of people do this. But once done, it's no longer a D-104 -- it's just one more HC-5 in a fancy housing. This is one case where it may look like a duck, but doesn't necessarily sound like a duck. I recognize some may consider that a plus :-)
I understand it, but it is a shame that Astatic can no longer economically manufacture the original cartridge for something this venerable, if not downright iconic ... Grant/NQ5T On Jul 10, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Bob Stevens wrote: > I forgot to add that the element in the mic conversion is the HC5 > > > > Heil makes a conversion kit for the D-104. I am using it and have had great > results. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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On 7/10/2010 7:37 PM, Grant Youngman wrote:
> I understand it, but it is a shame that Astatic can no longer > economically manufacture the original cartridge for something > this venerable, if not downright iconic ... Definitely iconic - the D-104 was the overwhelmingly first choice of the out-of-band-and-overpower CBers for use with their modified Yaesu FT-101E transceivers in the 1970s. Some of those folks eventually "saw the light", got their ham licenses, abandoned CB, and became good hams. 'Nuf said... ;-) -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 (lic. before there was a CB) ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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> Definitely iconic - the D-104 was the overwhelmingly first > choice of the out-of-band-and-overpower CBers for use with > their modified Yaesu FT-101E transceivers in the 1970s. Some > of those folks eventually "saw the light", got their ham > licenses, abandoned CB, and became good hams. My first exposure to the D104 was in 1962 when I rode my bicycle over to see Bob, W8YAT, who had an outstanding 160 meter AM signal with his Viking Valiant transmitter. My neighbor Fred, W8IQC, used one on his Ranger I transmitter, so they were very popular even in the early 60's and for non-CB'ers. My oldest D104 has been with me since the 70's when I used it with a Drake line. Still ticking just fine and still excellent audio after all these years, and with the little cheap FET mod works great with either low or very high impedance loads 40 years later! 73 Tom ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Tom and Gang - The D104 is a lot older. It was the first product of
the Astatic Corporation founded in 1934 and made in Youngstown, Ohio. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astatic_Corporation 73 Bob W7AVK K3/100 kit s/n 4365 On 7/11/2010 1:42 PM, Tom W8JI wrote: > My first exposure to the D104 was in 1962 when I rode my bicycle over to see > Bob, W8YAT, who had an outstanding 160 meter AM signal with his Viking > Valiant transmitter. My neighbor Fred, W8IQC, used one on his Ranger I > transmitter, so they were very popular even in the early 60's and for > non-CB'ers. My oldest D104 has been with me since the 70's when I used it > with a Drake line. Still ticking just fine and still excellent audio after > all these years, and with the little cheap FET mod works great with either > low or very high impedance loads 40 years later! > > 73 Tom > > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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