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DATA-A tx freq offset with digital modes

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Graham Alston

DATA-A tx freq offset with digital modes

Hi,

I’m very new to Elecraft and K3S so hope this is not too obvious….

I have a K3S connected to my PC with audio tones coming in via MIC IN (in reality the K3S is the remote end of a K3-Twin remote setup).

When I use DATA-A sub mode for CW, the transmission is 600Hz higher than the VFO frequency. I assume this is because DATA-A transmits on the USB and the VFO shows the suppressed carrier frequency?

I want my CW signal to match the VFO, how can I do that?

73, Graham VK3GA

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Ian Kahn, KM4IK

Re: DATA-A tx freq offset with digital modes

Graham,

DATA-A mode is typically used for PSK-31 and some other digital modes. Try using CW mode for CW and see if that doesn’t help resolve the issue.

Hope this helps.

73 de,

--Ian
Ian Kahn, KM4IK
Roswell, GA EM74ua
[hidden email]
10-10 #74624, North Georgia Chapter #2038
PODXS 070 #1962
K3# 281, P3 #688, KAT500 #860, KPA500 #1468

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Graham Alston
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2016 1:38 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] DATA-A tx freq offset with digital modes

Hi,

I’m very new to Elecraft and K3S so hope this is not too obvious….

I have a K3S connected to my PC with audio tones coming in via MIC IN (in reality the K3S is the remote end of a K3-Twin remote setup).

When I use DATA-A sub mode for CW, the transmission is 600Hz higher than the VFO frequency. I assume this is because DATA-A transmits on the USB and the VFO shows the suppressed carrier frequency?

I want my CW signal to match the VFO, how can I do that?

73, Graham VK3GA

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Don Wilhelm

Re: DATA-A tx freq offset with digital modes

In reply to this post by Graham Alston

Graham,

You are sending CW with audio tones, so that is a natural consequence.

I suggest the only "fix" is to put the K3S into SPLIT mode, set VFO B
600Hz lower than VFO A and then link the VFOs (LINK is a menu function now).

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/22/2016 1:37 AM, Graham Alston wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I’m very new to Elecraft and K3S so hope this is not too obvious….
>
> I have a K3S connected to my PC with audio tones coming in via MIC IN (in reality the K3S is the remote end of a K3-Twin remote setup).
>
> When I use DATA-A sub mode for CW, the transmission is 600Hz higher than the VFO frequency. I assume this is because DATA-A transmits on the USB and the VFO shows the suppressed carrier frequency?
>
> I want my CW signal to match the VFO, how can I do that?
>
> 73, Graham VK3GA
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Guy Olinger K2AV

Re: DATA-A tx freq offset with digital modes

In reply to this post by Graham Alston

[In the following text, "both the K3 and the K3S" is represented by "K3/S".
Text applicable to only one or the other will be "K3" or "K3S"]

Hi Graham.

With a warm smile, a soft voice, and friendly demeanor. I have had to go
through this post-analog era "de-analoging" my own radio perceptions, and
have had a fairly painful time of it :>)

The big lesson from my de-analoging was just how much my traditional analog
thinking, ground in by 50 years of analog hamming experience on analog
equipment, was keeping me from moving on. I needed to understand, cope with
and take advantage of very superior digital methods in a new digital era. I
was really pretty clunky. That said, not reporting any genius-level
learning rate on my part to claim superiority...

There is no suppressed carrier in software derived radio (SDR). In the
K3/S the single sideband envelope is generated directly from firmware. It
begins with data from analog to digital converter chips (ADC) on line in or
mic leads. Firmware converts this to SSB representative data, sent to a
digital to analog chip (DAC) directly outputting SSB at the 15 kHz TX IF.
There is no carrier to null or filter out. There is no opposite sideband to
phase out or filter out. There are DAC and frequency conversion artifacts
which need to be removed by one means or another (as in going through a 2.7
kHz wide 8 MHz crystal filter also used for receive).

CW is not a keyed carrier any more. It is directly generated by the DAC
chip to the 15 kHz TX IF from digital data representing an ideal waveform.
The normal keying "sidebands" of the CW signal are also from that data. The
frequency conversion, and linear amplifier stages following, will add some
additional sidebands based on their degree of linearity, hopefully very
well down.

For frequency display, in CW mode the K3/S will display the single
frequency of the central signal.

For SSB and any mode generated through DATA A, the K3/S will display the
traditional amateur radio SSB frequency, which is what you would get if you
could somehow create SSB output from a DC voltage applied to the K3/S
transmitter line in or mic inputs. Note that some other radio services use
center of bandwidth as the frequency for SSB operation.

Use of audio input for keying should be avoided where possible. Note that
you can generate CW, FSK, and PSK without use of audio input, producing
ideal keying and bandwidth. Signals generated this way are without any
audio input artifacts like 60, 120, 180 Hz hum, audio harmonics from low
level distortion, audio noise or hiss, or miscellaneous unwanted audio from
grounding issues, or feedback from mild RF in the shack, or miscellaneous
audio from other apps on the PC bleeding through PC "soundboards".

The state of digital direct signal generation for CW is so clean that it is
simply poor amateur practice to generate CW from audio tones. There are so
many ways to screw up CW in the audio. The reputation of very clean CW from
K3/S depends on the direct data generation of CW in the K3/S

The key jack input on the back of the K3/S is itself converted to data on
one lead of an ADC chip, and sent to the CPU as data, only one data
"channel" on a single multiplexed data line, informing the CPU that the key
is *reported* high or low. That key jack voltage is not used directly for
anything except to be sampled, and advise the CPU whether the jack is keyed
or not. The CPU directs other stuff based upon the *report* of keyed or
not. It can do exactly the same thing from a string of characters converted
in firmware to the *effect* of *reports* of keyed or not. Ditto FSK D and
PSK D.

In a contest, I would not want to be the next station up or down frequency
from you doing audio generation of CW. I urge you to permanently
discontinue that practice.

I would also urge that you use FSK D and PSK D where possible to transmit
instead of audio tones. These are all successfully employed by some remote
users, though I can't speak to the methods or their complexity.

FSK D and PSK D will occupy minimum bandwidth by virtue of ideal waveforms
and be independent of all the audio train issues of gain, noise,
level-based distortion and AC power artifacts between user PC generation,
audio train, and the K3/S.

Use of the K3/S USB "soundcard" in some setups does remove some audio
transmission issues, but you are exporting the "quality control" of
waveforms to the third-party program running on the PC. Third-party
programmers are not going to take responsibility for K3/S output waveshape.

Sorry to rag on, but not excessively sorry. :>)

73 and good luck with all the remote stuff.

Guy K2AV

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 1:37 AM, Graham Alston <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I’m very new to Elecraft and K3S so hope this is not too obvious….
>
> I have a K3S connected to my PC with audio tones coming in via MIC IN (in
> reality the K3S is the remote end of a K3-Twin remote setup).
>
> When I use DATA-A sub mode for CW, the transmission is 600Hz higher than
> the VFO frequency. I assume this is because DATA-A transmits on the USB and
> the VFO shows the suppressed carrier frequency?
>
> I want my CW signal to match the VFO, how can I do that?
>
> 73, Graham VK3GA
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

EricJ-2

Re: DATA-A tx freq offset with digital modes

A very enlightening post, Guy.

Almost every new technology ever invented experiences the same thing. New users tend to work hard to make the new technology work just like the old technology did. Instead of developing new procedures to fit very different technology, they make the new technology fit the old procedures. I worked in the printing and publishing industry for many years.

We were still using some hot metal Linotypes that weren't even made anymore, and when we bought electronic typesetters, managers and workers tried to make them compatible with hot type instead of junking hot type and developing new procedures. It was a long battle. Computer use was the same. People would type on the new word processors, then immediately print a copy to edit from, then go back to the WP enter the edits and immediately print a "clean" copy. One wag early on said the paperless office was about as likely as the paperless bathroom.

Thanks for the very lucid description of how the K3 works.

Eric KE6US

On 9/22/2016 1:21 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

[In the following text, "both the K3 and the K3S" is represented by "K3/S".
Text applicable to only one or the other will be "K3" or "K3S"]

Hi Graham.

With a warm smile, a soft voice, and friendly demeanor. I have had to go
through this post-analog era "de-analoging" my own radio perceptions, and
have had a fairly painful time of it :>)

The big lesson from my de-analoging was just how much my traditional analog
thinking, ground in by 50 years of analog hamming experience on analog
equipment, was keeping me from moving on. I needed to understand, cope with
and take advantage of very superior digital methods in a new digital era. I
was really pretty clunky. That said, not reporting any genius-level
learning rate on my part to claim superiority...

There is no suppressed carrier in software derived radio (SDR). In the
K3/S the single sideband envelope is generated directly from firmware. It
begins with data from analog to digital converter chips (ADC) on line in or
mic leads. Firmware converts this to SSB representative data, sent to a
digital to analog chip (DAC) directly outputting SSB at the 15 kHz TX IF.
There is no carrier to null or filter out. There is no opposite sideband to
phase out or filter out. There are DAC and frequency conversion artifacts
which need to be removed by one means or another (as in going through a 2.7
kHz wide 8 MHz crystal filter also used for receive).

CW is not a keyed carrier any more. It is directly generated by the DAC
chip to the 15 kHz TX IF from digital data representing an ideal waveform.
The normal keying "sidebands" of the CW signal are also from that data. The
frequency conversion, and linear amplifier stages following, will add some
additional sidebands based on their degree of linearity, hopefully very
well down.

For frequency display, in CW mode the K3/S will display the single
frequency of the central signal.

For SSB and any mode generated through DATA A, the K3/S will display the
traditional amateur radio SSB frequency, which is what you would get if you
could somehow create SSB output from a DC voltage applied to the K3/S
transmitter line in or mic inputs. Note that some other radio services use
center of bandwidth as the frequency for SSB operation.

Use of audio input for keying should be avoided where possible. Note that
you can generate CW, FSK, and PSK without use of audio input, producing
ideal keying and bandwidth. Signals generated this way are without any
audio input artifacts like 60, 120, 180 Hz hum, audio harmonics from low
level distortion, audio noise or hiss, or miscellaneous unwanted audio from
grounding issues, or feedback from mild RF in the shack, or miscellaneous
audio from other apps on the PC bleeding through PC "soundboards".

The state of digital direct signal generation for CW is so clean that it is
simply poor amateur practice to generate CW from audio tones. There are so
many ways to screw up CW in the audio. The reputation of very clean CW from
K3/S depends on the direct data generation of CW in the K3/S

The key jack input on the back of the K3/S is itself converted to data on
one lead of an ADC chip, and sent to the CPU as data, only one data
"channel" on a single multiplexed data line, informing the CPU that the key
is *reported* high or low. That key jack voltage is not used directly for
anything except to be sampled, and advise the CPU whether the jack is keyed
or not. The CPU directs other stuff based upon the *report* of keyed or
not. It can do exactly the same thing from a string of characters converted
in firmware to the *effect* of *reports* of keyed or not. Ditto FSK D and
PSK D.

In a contest, I would not want to be the next station up or down frequency
from you doing audio generation of CW. I urge you to permanently
discontinue that practice.

I would also urge that you use FSK D and PSK D where possible to transmit
instead of audio tones. These are all successfully employed by some remote
users, though I can't speak to the methods or their complexity.

FSK D and PSK D will occupy minimum bandwidth by virtue of ideal waveforms
and be independent of all the audio train issues of gain, noise,
level-based distortion and AC power artifacts between user PC generation,
audio train, and the K3/S.

Use of the K3/S USB "soundcard" in some setups does remove some audio
transmission issues, but you are exporting the "quality control" of
waveforms to the third-party program running on the PC. Third-party
programmers are not going to take responsibility for K3/S output waveshape.

Sorry to rag on, but not excessively sorry. :>)

73 and good luck with all the remote stuff.

Guy K2AV

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 1:37 AM, Graham Alston <[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

I’m very new to Elecraft and K3S so hope this is not too obvious….

I have a K3S connected to my PC with audio tones coming in via MIC IN (in
reality the K3S is the remote end of a K3-Twin remote setup).

When I use DATA-A sub mode for CW, the transmission is 600Hz higher than
the VFO frequency. I assume this is because DATA-A transmits on the USB and
the VFO shows the suppressed carrier frequency?

I want my CW signal to match the VFO, how can I do that?

73, Graham VK3GA

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>

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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Kidder, George

Re: DATA-A tx freq offset with digital modes

Eric,

As an old duffer who has done lots of scientific writing over the last
60 years, I have never found that I could ACCURATELY proofread from a
computer screen. For some reason, my eye skips over some really howlers
which I do catch in the printed copy. And along with this is the
growing incidence of spellchecker errors, in which the wrong real word
is substituted for a misspelled word with another meaning. (My favorite
error was the substitution of "wooden" for "woolen" in a sentence which
was intended to read "[she] was the type of girl who looks like she
wears woolen underwear." I hope the younger generations are better than
I am, but looking as the printed results does not encourage this belief.

George, W3HBM
PS - I hope this short message is error-free, but don't count on it - I
didn't print it out.

> A very enlightening post, Guy.
>
> Almost every new technology ever invented experiences the same thing. New users tend to work hard to make the new technology work just like the old technology did. Instead of developing new procedures to fit very different technology, they make the new technology fit the old procedures. I worked in the printing and publishing industry for many years.
>
> We were still using some hot metal Linotypes that weren't even made anymore, and when we bought electronic typesetters, managers and workers tried to make them compatible with hot type instead of junking hot type and developing new procedures. It was a long battle. Computer use was the same. People would type on the new word processors, then immediately print a copy to edit from, then go back to the WP enter the edits and immediately print a "clean" copy. One wag early on said the paperless office was about as likely as the paperless bathroom.
>
> Thanks for the very lucid description of how the K3 works.
>
> Eric KE6US
>
> On 9/22/2016 1:21 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>
> [In the following text, "both the K3 and the K3S" is represented by "K3/S".
> Text applicable to only one or the other will be "K3" or "K3S"]
>
> Hi Graham.
>
> With a warm smile, a soft voice, and friendly demeanor. I have had to go
> through this post-analog era "de-analoging" my own radio perceptions, and
> have had a fairly painful time of it :>)
>
> The big lesson from my de-analoging was just how much my traditional analog
> thinking, ground in by 50 years of analog hamming experience on analog
> equipment, was keeping me from moving on. I needed to understand, cope with
> and take advantage of very superior digital methods in a new digital era. I
> was really pretty clunky. That said, not reporting any genius-level
> learning rate on my part to claim superiority...
>
> There is no suppressed carrier in software derived radio (SDR). In the
> K3/S the single sideband envelope is generated directly from firmware. It
> begins with data from analog to digital converter chips (ADC) on line in or
> mic leads. Firmware converts this to SSB representative data, sent to a
> digital to analog chip (DAC) directly outputting SSB at the 15 kHz TX IF.
> There is no carrier to null or filter out. There is no opposite sideband to
> phase out or filter out. There are DAC and frequency conversion artifacts
> which need to be removed by one means or another (as in going through a 2.7
> kHz wide 8 MHz crystal filter also used for receive).
>
> CW is not a keyed carrier any more. It is directly generated by the DAC
> chip to the 15 kHz TX IF from digital data representing an ideal waveform.
> The normal keying "sidebands" of the CW signal are also from that data. The
> frequency conversion, and linear amplifier stages following, will add some
> additional sidebands based on their degree of linearity, hopefully very
> well down.
>
> For frequency display, in CW mode the K3/S will display the single
> frequency of the central signal.
>
> For SSB and any mode generated through DATA A, the K3/S will display the
> traditional amateur radio SSB frequency, which is what you would get if you
> could somehow create SSB output from a DC voltage applied to the K3/S
> transmitter line in or mic inputs. Note that some other radio services use
> center of bandwidth as the frequency for SSB operation.
>
> Use of audio input for keying should be avoided where possible. Note that
> you can generate CW, FSK, and PSK without use of audio input, producing
> ideal keying and bandwidth. Signals generated this way are without any
> audio input artifacts like 60, 120, 180 Hz hum, audio harmonics from low
> level distortion, audio noise or hiss, or miscellaneous unwanted audio from
> grounding issues, or feedback from mild RF in the shack, or miscellaneous
> audio from other apps on the PC bleeding through PC "soundboards".
>
> The state of digital direct signal generation for CW is so clean that it is
> simply poor amateur practice to generate CW from audio tones. There are so
> many ways to screw up CW in the audio. The reputation of very clean CW from
> K3/S depends on the direct data generation of CW in the K3/S
>
> The key jack input on the back of the K3/S is itself converted to data on
> one lead of an ADC chip, and sent to the CPU as data, only one data
> "channel" on a single multiplexed data line, informing the CPU that the key
> is *reported* high or low. That key jack voltage is not used directly for
> anything except to be sampled, and advise the CPU whether the jack is keyed
> or not. The CPU directs other stuff based upon the *report* of keyed or
> not. It can do exactly the same thing from a string of characters converted
> in firmware to the *effect* of *reports* of keyed or not. Ditto FSK D and
> PSK D.
>
> In a contest, I would not want to be the next station up or down frequency
> from you doing audio generation of CW. I urge you to permanently
> discontinue that practice.
>
> I would also urge that you use FSK D and PSK D where possible to transmit
> instead of audio tones. These are all successfully employed by some remote
> users, though I can't speak to the methods or their complexity.
>
> FSK D and PSK D will occupy minimum bandwidth by virtue of ideal waveforms
> and be independent of all the audio train issues of gain, noise,
> level-based distortion and AC power artifacts between user PC generation,
> audio train, and the K3/S.
>
> Use of the K3/S USB "soundcard" in some setups does remove some audio
> transmission issues, but you are exporting the "quality control" of
> waveforms to the third-party program running on the PC. Third-party
> programmers are not going to take responsibility for K3/S output waveshape.
>
> Sorry to rag on, but not excessively sorry. :>)
>
> 73 and good luck with all the remote stuff.
>
> Guy K2AV
>
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 1:37 AM, Graham Alston <[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I’m very new to Elecraft and K3S so hope this is not too obvious….
>
> I have a K3S connected to my PC with audio tones coming in via MIC IN (in
> reality the K3S is the remote end of a K3-Twin remote setup).
>
> When I use DATA-A sub mode for CW, the transmission is 600Hz higher than
> the VFO frequency. I assume this is because DATA-A transmits on the USB and
> the VFO shows the suppressed carrier frequency?
>
> I want my CW signal to match the VFO, how can I do that?
>
> 73, Graham VK3GA
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

EricJ-2

Re: DATA-A tx freq offset with digital modes

You haven't adjusted to on-screen technology, because paper technology is familiar. That was the main point I saw in Guy's note. Many of us hams are hung up on analog technology, and some of us insist on imposing this on digital technology such as the K3. We want the K3 to work like the old analog stuff did/does. Older people have to relearn things to deal with new technology as new technology. Younger people who grow up on the new digital technology will likely do the same thing when they are older and technology again changes.

I wrote professionally for half my life (autos and motorcycles). I started on a manual typewriter then an electric. When the TRS-80 came out and Michael Shrayer's Electric Pencil became available, I switched completely to composing, editing and submitting electronically by about 1980. Affordable printers were crappy 40 column thermal dot matrix at first, then mostly paper dot-matrix. I learned to do as much as I could on the screen to avoid those abysmal printers. It turned out to be a good decision.

All that said, I love my analog (mostly) technology K2's. hi.

Eric KE6US

On 9/22/2016 3:26 PM, George Kidder wrote:

Eric,

As an old duffer who has done lots of scientific writing over the last 60 years, I have never found that I could ACCURATELY proofread from a computer screen. For some reason, my eye skips over some really howlers which I do catch in the printed copy. And along with this is the growing incidence of spellchecker errors, in which the wrong real word is substituted for a misspelled word with another meaning. (My favorite error was the substitution of "wooden" for "woolen" in a sentence which was intended to read "[she] was the type of girl who looks like she wears woolen underwear." I hope the younger generations are better than I am, but looking as the printed results does not encourage this belief.

George, W3HBM
PS - I hope this short message is error-free, but don't count on it - I didn't print it out.

A very enlightening post, Guy.

Almost every new technology ever invented experiences the same thing. New users tend to work hard to make the new technology work just like the old technology did. Instead of developing new procedures to fit very different technology, they make the new technology fit the old procedures. I worked in the printing and publishing industry for many years.

We were still using some hot metal Linotypes that weren't even made anymore, and when we bought electronic typesetters, managers and workers tried to make them compatible with hot type instead of junking hot type and developing new procedures. It was a long battle. Computer use was the same. People would type on the new word processors, then immediately print a copy to edit from, then go back to the WP enter the edits and immediately print a "clean" copy. One wag early on said the paperless office was about as likely as the paperless bathroom.

Thanks for the very lucid description of how the K3 works.

Eric KE6US

On 9/22/2016 1:21 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

[In the following text, "both the K3 and the K3S" is represented by "K3/S".
Text applicable to only one or the other will be "K3" or "K3S"]

Hi Graham.

With a warm smile, a soft voice, and friendly demeanor. I have had to go
through this post-analog era "de-analoging" my own radio perceptions, and
have had a fairly painful time of it :>)

The big lesson from my de-analoging was just how much my traditional analog
thinking, ground in by 50 years of analog hamming experience on analog
equipment, was keeping me from moving on. I needed to understand, cope with
and take advantage of very superior digital methods in a new digital era. I
was really pretty clunky. That said, not reporting any genius-level
learning rate on my part to claim superiority...

There is no suppressed carrier in software derived radio (SDR). In the
K3/S the single sideband envelope is generated directly from firmware. It
begins with data from analog to digital converter chips (ADC) on line in or
mic leads. Firmware converts this to SSB representative data, sent to a
digital to analog chip (DAC) directly outputting SSB at the 15 kHz TX IF.
There is no carrier to null or filter out. There is no opposite sideband to
phase out or filter out. There are DAC and frequency conversion artifacts
which need to be removed by one means or another (as in going through a 2.7
kHz wide 8 MHz crystal filter also used for receive).

CW is not a keyed carrier any more. It is directly generated by the DAC
chip to the 15 kHz TX IF from digital data representing an ideal waveform.
The normal keying "sidebands" of the CW signal are also from that data. The
frequency conversion, and linear amplifier stages following, will add some
additional sidebands based on their degree of linearity, hopefully very
well down.

For frequency display, in CW mode the K3/S will display the single
frequency of the central signal.

For SSB and any mode generated through DATA A, the K3/S will display the
traditional amateur radio SSB frequency, which is what you would get if you
could somehow create SSB output from a DC voltage applied to the K3/S
transmitter line in or mic inputs. Note that some other radio services use
center of bandwidth as the frequency for SSB operation.

Use of audio input for keying should be avoided where possible. Note that
you can generate CW, FSK, and PSK without use of audio input, producing
ideal keying and bandwidth. Signals generated this way are without any
audio input artifacts like 60, 120, 180 Hz hum, audio harmonics from low
level distortion, audio noise or hiss, or miscellaneous unwanted audio from
grounding issues, or feedback from mild RF in the shack, or miscellaneous
audio from other apps on the PC bleeding through PC "soundboards".

The state of digital direct signal generation for CW is so clean that it is
simply poor amateur practice to generate CW from audio tones. There are so
many ways to screw up CW in the audio. The reputation of very clean CW from
K3/S depends on the direct data generation of CW in the K3/S

The key jack input on the back of the K3/S is itself converted to data on
one lead of an ADC chip, and sent to the CPU as data, only one data
"channel" on a single multiplexed data line, informing the CPU that the key
is *reported* high or low. That key jack voltage is not used directly for
anything except to be sampled, and advise the CPU whether the jack is keyed
or not. The CPU directs other stuff based upon the *report* of keyed or
not. It can do exactly the same thing from a string of characters converted
in firmware to the *effect* of *reports* of keyed or not. Ditto FSK D and
PSK D.

In a contest, I would not want to be the next station up or down frequency
from you doing audio generation of CW. I urge you to permanently
discontinue that practice.

I would also urge that you use FSK D and PSK D where possible to transmit
instead of audio tones. These are all successfully employed by some remote
users, though I can't speak to the methods or their complexity.

FSK D and PSK D will occupy minimum bandwidth by virtue of ideal waveforms
and be independent of all the audio train issues of gain, noise,
level-based distortion and AC power artifacts between user PC generation,
audio train, and the K3/S.

Use of the K3/S USB "soundcard" in some setups does remove some audio
transmission issues, but you are exporting the "quality control" of
waveforms to the third-party program running on the PC. Third-party
programmers are not going to take responsibility for K3/S output waveshape.

Sorry to rag on, but not excessively sorry. :>)

73 and good luck with all the remote stuff.

Guy K2AV

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 1:37 AM, Graham Alston <[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

I’m very new to Elecraft and K3S so hope this is not too obvious….

I have a K3S connected to my PC with audio tones coming in via MIC IN (in
reality the K3S is the remote end of a K3-Twin remote setup).

When I use DATA-A sub mode for CW, the transmission is 600Hz higher than
the VFO frequency. I assume this is because DATA-A transmits on the USB and
the VFO shows the suppressed carrier frequency?

I want my CW signal to match the VFO, how can I do that?

73, Graham VK3GA

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Graham Alston

Re: DATA-A tx freq offset with digital modes

In reply to this post by Guy Olinger K2AV

Hello Guy, Ian, Don, Eric, Ed…...

Very enlightening posts, thank you!

As a ham who has only, in the last 12 months, returned on air after 30 years, this information is very relevant.

So on your advice I did some more testing and can confirm that using WinK3Suite remotely via the RemoteRig K3-Twin system works perfectly for CW/RTTY/PSK. No need to use Fldigi/sound card or USB for those modes….nice and clean.

For JT65/JT9, which cannot be provided “in the box”, I am forced to use the sound card tones at the control end of the remote link (which the RemoteRig appliances send to the remote K3S via the MIC IN).

Elecraft Support insist that I should use DATA-A and keep a close eye on the ALC so as not to cause any spectrum problems. Ed, thanks for doing the tests. I assume WSJT-X is the same as WSJT10, so I think I’m all good.

I must say that I am having a ball on these new digital modes and enjoying DX’ing much more than I ever did 30 years ago. The ability to work an Iraq station on JT65 at -20dB who was running 30W into a dipole is extraordinary, particularly from this part of the world in a declining sunspot cycle.

Best 73, Graham VK3GA

> On 23 Sep 2016, at 6:21 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> [In the following text, "both the K3 and the K3S" is represented by "K3/S". Text applicable to only one or the other will be "K3" or "K3S"]
>
> Hi Graham.
>
> With a warm smile, a soft voice, and friendly demeanor. I have had to go through this post-analog era "de-analoging" my own radio perceptions, and have had a fairly painful time of it :>)
>
> The big lesson from my de-analoging was just how much my traditional analog thinking, ground in by 50 years of analog hamming experience on analog equipment, was keeping me from moving on. I needed to understand, cope with and take advantage of very superior digital methods in a new digital era. I was really pretty clunky. That said, not reporting any genius-level learning rate on my part to claim superiority...
>
> There is no suppressed carrier in software derived radio (SDR). In the K3/S the single sideband envelope is generated directly from firmware. It begins with data from analog to digital converter chips (ADC) on line in or mic leads. Firmware converts this to SSB representative data, sent to a digital to analog chip (DAC) directly outputting SSB at the 15 kHz TX IF. There is no carrier to null or filter out. There is no opposite sideband to phase out or filter out. There are DAC and frequency conversion artifacts which need to be removed by one means or another (as in going through a 2.7 kHz wide 8 MHz crystal filter also used for receive).
>
> CW is not a keyed carrier any more. It is directly generated by the DAC chip to the 15 kHz TX IF from digital data representing an ideal waveform. The normal keying "sidebands" of the CW signal are also from that data. The frequency conversion, and linear amplifier stages following, will add some additional sidebands based on their degree of linearity, hopefully very well down.
>
> For frequency display, in CW mode the K3/S will display the single frequency of the central signal.
>
> For SSB and any mode generated through DATA A, the K3/S will display the traditional amateur radio SSB frequency, which is what you would get if you could somehow create SSB output from a DC voltage applied to the K3/S transmitter line in or mic inputs. Note that some other radio services use center of bandwidth as the frequency for SSB operation.
>
> Use of audio input for keying should be avoided where possible. Note that you can generate CW, FSK, and PSK without use of audio input, producing ideal keying and bandwidth. Signals generated this way are without any audio input artifacts like 60, 120, 180 Hz hum, audio harmonics from low level distortion, audio noise or hiss, or miscellaneous unwanted audio from grounding issues, or feedback from mild RF in the shack, or miscellaneous audio from other apps on the PC bleeding through PC "soundboards".
>
> The state of digital direct signal generation for CW is so clean that it is simply poor amateur practice to generate CW from audio tones. There are so many ways to screw up CW in the audio. The reputation of very clean CW from K3/S depends on the direct data generation of CW in the K3/S
>
> The key jack input on the back of the K3/S is itself converted to data on one lead of an ADC chip, and sent to the CPU as data, only one data "channel" on a single multiplexed data line, informing the CPU that the key is *reported* high or low. That key jack voltage is not used directly for anything except to be sampled, and advise the CPU whether the jack is keyed or not. The CPU directs other stuff based upon the *report* of keyed or not. It can do exactly the same thing from a string of characters converted in firmware to the *effect* of *reports* of keyed or not. Ditto FSK D and PSK D.
>
> In a contest, I would not want to be the next station up or down frequency from you doing audio generation of CW. I urge you to permanently discontinue that practice.
>
> I would also urge that you use FSK D and PSK D where possible to transmit instead of audio tones. These are all successfully employed by some remote users, though I can't speak to the methods or their complexity.
>
> FSK D and PSK D will occupy minimum bandwidth by virtue of ideal waveforms and be independent of all the audio train issues of gain, noise, level-based distortion and AC power artifacts between user PC generation, audio train, and the K3/S.
>
> Use of the K3/S USB "soundcard" in some setups does remove some audio transmission issues, but you are exporting the "quality control" of waveforms to the third-party program running on the PC. Third-party programmers are not going to take responsibility for K3/S output waveshape.
>
> Sorry to rag on, but not excessively sorry. :>)
>
> 73 and good luck with all the remote stuff.
>
> Guy K2AV
>
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 1:37 AM, Graham Alston <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I’m very new to Elecraft and K3S so hope this is not too obvious….
>
> I have a K3S connected to my PC with audio tones coming in via MIC IN (in reality the K3S is the remote end of a K3-Twin remote setup).
>
> When I use DATA-A sub mode for CW, the transmission is 600Hz higher than the VFO frequency. I assume this is because DATA-A transmits on the USB and the VFO shows the suppressed carrier frequency?
>
> I want my CW signal to match the VFO, how can I do that?
>
> 73, Graham VK3GA
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
> Post: mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net <http://www.qsl.net/>
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
> Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>

Terry Schieler-2

Re: DATA-A tx freq offset with digital modes

In reply to this post by EricJ-2

I agree, Eric. I started in ham radio in 1962. I love tapping into the new technology but it's not as easy as you grow older. My son continues to beat me up over the fact that I still have my newspaper delivered every day. Tramping through the snow and rain to retrieve it. Sometimes it's wet and it gets thinner of content each week. But I'd much prefer plopping into my big leather chair with my morning paper than trying to read the same thing on a computer screen. Same goes for books, magazines and instruction manuals. Works for me.

Terry, W0FM

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric J [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2016 9:15 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] DATA-A tx freq offset with digital modes

You haven't adjusted to on-screen technology, because paper technology is familiar. That was the main point I saw in Guy's note. Many of us hams are hung up on analog technology, and some of us insist on imposing this on digital technology such as the K3. We want the K3 to work like the old analog stuff did/does. Older people have to relearn things to deal with new technology as new technology. Younger people who grow up on the new digital technology will likely do the same thing when they are older and technology again changes.

I wrote professionally for half my life (autos and motorcycles). I started on a manual typewriter then an electric. When the TRS-80 came out and Michael Shrayer's Electric Pencil became available, I switched completely to composing, editing and submitting electronically by about 1980. Affordable printers were crappy 40 column thermal dot matrix at first, then mostly paper dot-matrix. I learned to do as much as I could on the screen to avoid those abysmal printers. It turned out to be a good decision.

All that said, I love my analog (mostly) technology K2's. hi.

Eric KE6US

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