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Difficulty with K3 Utility RS232 Interface

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Craig Smith

Difficulty with K3 Utility RS232 Interface

I am trying to do a "configuration save" with the latest released K3
utility. I'm using a straight-thru 6 foot RS232 connection and get an error
message saying "K3 Get command failed to return the expected response after
several attempts". I posted a help request on the reflector about this a
week or so ago, and Dick Dievendorff was kind enough to respond with some
possible ways to remedy the problem. He suggested that it was possibly a
bad cable. I bought a new cable, and it behaves identically. BTW, both
cables look fine with a continuity check. Straight-thru in each of the 9
pins and the shells. He also sent me a couple of non-released versions of
the K3 Utility, thinking that they might help the situation. Unfortunately,
they behaved similarly. So I'm ready to move past the cable and software
and look at the hardware.

I've tried the obvious things like reseating the RS232 connectors. Also, I
get the same message when running the I/F at each of the 4 speeds. This
same RS232 I/F to the K3 works flawlessly with the K3 Utility in terms of
reading and changing filter parameters and CW memory bank contents. It also
works perfectly for rig control/logging with both N3FJP and N1MM contest
software. I have had absolutely no problems with noise from the computer or
with RF in the shack. The K3 is SN 608, so has over a year under its belt
with never any other RS232 I/F problem. I've also used this same I/F
several months ago to do a configuration save and install new K3 firmware.
It worked just fine then.

The present situation is that I'm running version 2.02 firmware and would
very much like to update it to version 3.11 so that I can have access to
some of the latest features. But I'm hesitant to try a firmware install if
the RS232 I/F is "flakey". The last thing I want is to have the K3 totally
inoperable due to a botched attempt at a firmware upgrade.

I saw that there was a mod in the modification list that removes the 100 uH
inductor from the RS232 return line. Thought this was worth a try, so
jumpered out the inductor. Unfortunately no change in the situation. While
I had the RS232, ACC I/O board out of the K3, I checked to see if there was
anything else obvious there. Nothing definitive, but a couple of things to
note:

The RS232 Application note states that "Do not use the metal shell of the
RS232 or ACC connectors for chassis ground. They are normally isolated from
the chassis." On my board, the RS232 connector shell is isolated and the
ACC connector shell is tied to frame ground. Is this normal? What is the
reason for wanting the shells isolated? Can this contribute to the problem
I'm having?

There is a deviance between the latest K3 schematic and my RS232 hardware.
On both the RXD out and TXD in lines, my hardware has a 220 ohm resistor in
series with the inductors. No resistors are shown in the schematic. Please
clarify.

Unfortunately, I have no other computer here with RS232, so can't try
changing computers.

What should I try next ?????

I'm copying the reflector in case anyone else would like to offer
suggestions.

Thanks and 73
.... Craig AC0DS

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Iain MacDonnell - N6ML-2

Re: Difficulty with K3 Utility RS232 Interface

Hi Craig,

This is a guess, but I suspect that your current firmware is too old to
support saving its configuration with the up-to-date K3 Utility - it's
probably trying to use some command that doesn't exist in that firmware,
to read some configuration.

It sounds like your RS232 setup is working fine. If it was me, I'd "bite
the bullet" and go ahead with the firmware update... but you may be less
adventurous ;)

~Iain / N6ML

Craig D. Smith wrote:

> I am trying to do a "configuration save" with the latest released K3
> utility. I'm using a straight-thru 6 foot RS232 connection and get an error
> message saying "K3 Get command failed to return the expected response after
> several attempts". I posted a help request on the reflector about this a
> week or so ago, and Dick Dievendorff was kind enough to respond with some
> possible ways to remedy the problem. He suggested that it was possibly a
> bad cable. I bought a new cable, and it behaves identically. BTW, both
> cables look fine with a continuity check. Straight-thru in each of the 9
> pins and the shells. He also sent me a couple of non-released versions of
> the K3 Utility, thinking that they might help the situation. Unfortunately,
> they behaved similarly. So I'm ready to move past the cable and software
> and look at the hardware.
>
> I've tried the obvious things like reseating the RS232 connectors. Also, I
> get the same message when running the I/F at each of the 4 speeds. This
> same RS232 I/F to the K3 works flawlessly with the K3 Utility in terms of
> reading and changing filter parameters and CW memory bank contents. It also
> works perfectly for rig control/logging with both N3FJP and N1MM contest
> software. I have had absolutely no problems with noise from the computer or
> with RF in the shack. The K3 is SN 608, so has over a year under its belt
> with never any other RS232 I/F problem. I've also used this same I/F
> several months ago to do a configuration save and install new K3 firmware.
> It worked just fine then.
>
> The present situation is that I'm running version 2.02 firmware and would
> very much like to update it to version 3.11 so that I can have access to
> some of the latest features. But I'm hesitant to try a firmware install if
> the RS232 I/F is "flakey". The last thing I want is to have the K3 totally
> inoperable due to a botched attempt at a firmware upgrade.
>
> I saw that there was a mod in the modification list that removes the 100 uH
> inductor from the RS232 return line. Thought this was worth a try, so
> jumpered out the inductor. Unfortunately no change in the situation. While
> I had the RS232, ACC I/O board out of the K3, I checked to see if there was
> anything else obvious there. Nothing definitive, but a couple of things to
> note:
>
> The RS232 Application note states that "Do not use the metal shell of the
> RS232 or ACC connectors for chassis ground. They are normally isolated from
> the chassis." On my board, the RS232 connector shell is isolated and the
> ACC connector shell is tied to frame ground. Is this normal? What is the
> reason for wanting the shells isolated? Can this contribute to the problem
> I'm having?
>
> There is a deviance between the latest K3 schematic and my RS232 hardware.
> On both the RXD out and TXD in lines, my hardware has a 220 ohm resistor in
> series with the inductors. No resistors are shown in the schematic. Please
> clarify.
>
> Unfortunately, I have no other computer here with RS232, so can't try
> changing computers.
>
> What should I try next ?????
>
> I'm copying the reflector in case anyone else would like to offer
> suggestions.
>
>
> Thanks and 73
> .... Craig AC0DS
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

KK7P

Re: Difficulty with K3 Utility RS232 Interface

In reply to this post by Craig Smith

Hello Craig!

> The RS232 Application note states that "Do not use the metal shell of the
> RS232 or ACC connectors for chassis ground. They are normally isolated from
> the chassis."...

The intent is to use pin 5 of the RS232 and the appropriate pins of the
ACC interface, for signal ground and not to depend on shell-to-case
bonding for passing signals.

> There is a deviance between the latest K3 schematic and my RS232 hardware.
> On both the RXD out and TXD in lines, my hardware has a 220 ohm resistor in
> series with the inductors. No resistors are shown in the schematic. Please
> clarify.

Early K3s had series resistors in the RS232 signal path. This is not a
problem.

***

I suspected the issue you are having is related to the vast differences
in version 2.02 (June 2008) usage of Front Panel Flash memory and the
current usage of that memory.

I loaded my K3 with your version of code (MCU2.02, FPF 0.02, DSP 1.77).
Sure enough, I can't do a configuration file save, either. I got the
exact error message you are seeing.

I then loaded the latest versions with no problems, and successfully did
a configuration save.

Thus, I think my suspicion of the differences in flash usage being
responsible for your inability to do a configuration save is correct.

In general, when new, stable versions of code are released, consider
updating at that time even if it has features you don't care about.
Utility generally understands the recent versions and will handle the
differences correctly. After long periods, code cleanup or other
measures may result in incompatibility with much older versions of firmware.

73,

Lyle KK7P

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Dick Dievendorff

Re: Difficulty with K3 Utility RS232 Interface

In reply to this post by Iain MacDonnell - N6ML-2

The K3 commands used to save the K3 configuration have been in the MCU
firmware, unchanged, for as long as the save configuration capability has
been offered. I don't believe that this is the issue. (It's not a bad
guess, though!)

I and the rest of the K3 support team will continue to work with Craig to
resolve this problem. One-of-a-kind problems are very much worth digging
into, so that we solve the problem and make the necessary changes so that
others aren't inconvenienced in the future. That's one of the several ways
products improve. Maybe it's marginal hardware somewhere along the path.
I've made several software changes that add or adjust retries to better
tolerate marginal hardware issues. Maybe I can make an adjustment that
solves Craig's problem with his existing hardware.

I'll be adding a diagnostic trace to the K3 Utility save/restore config so
that Craig can capture and send me the details of the command stream that is
causing problems. Maybe I can supply a software change to get Craig (and
other future users) past this problem.

Dick, K6KR

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Iain MacDonnell -
N6ML
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 9:55 AM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Difficulty with K3 Utility RS232 Interface

Hi Craig,

This is a guess, but I suspect that your current firmware is too old to
support saving its configuration with the up-to-date K3 Utility - it's
probably trying to use some command that doesn't exist in that firmware,
to read some configuration.

It sounds like your RS232 setup is working fine. If it was me, I'd "bite
the bullet" and go ahead with the firmware update... but you may be less
adventurous ;)

~Iain / N6ML

Craig D. Smith wrote:
> I am trying to do a "configuration save" with the latest released K3
> utility. I'm using a straight-thru 6 foot RS232 connection and get an
error
> message saying "K3 Get command failed to return the expected response
after
> several attempts". I posted a help request on the reflector about this a
> week or so ago, and Dick Dievendorff was kind enough to respond with some
> possible ways to remedy the problem. He suggested that it was possibly a
> bad cable. I bought a new cable, and it behaves identically. BTW, both
> cables look fine with a continuity check. Straight-thru in each of the 9
> pins and the shells. He also sent me a couple of non-released versions of
> the K3 Utility, thinking that they might help the situation.
Unfortunately,
> they behaved similarly. So I'm ready to move past the cable and software
> and look at the hardware.
>
> I've tried the obvious things like reseating the RS232 connectors. Also,
I
> get the same message when running the I/F at each of the 4 speeds. This
> same RS232 I/F to the K3 works flawlessly with the K3 Utility in terms of
> reading and changing filter parameters and CW memory bank contents. It
also
> works perfectly for rig control/logging with both N3FJP and N1MM contest
> software. I have had absolutely no problems with noise from the computer
or
> with RF in the shack. The K3 is SN 608, so has over a year under its belt
> with never any other RS232 I/F problem. I've also used this same I/F
> several months ago to do a configuration save and install new K3 firmware.
> It worked just fine then.
>
> The present situation is that I'm running version 2.02 firmware and would
> very much like to update it to version 3.11 so that I can have access to
> some of the latest features. But I'm hesitant to try a firmware install
if
> the RS232 I/F is "flakey". The last thing I want is to have the K3
totally
> inoperable due to a botched attempt at a firmware upgrade.
>
> I saw that there was a mod in the modification list that removes the 100
uH
> inductor from the RS232 return line. Thought this was worth a try, so
> jumpered out the inductor. Unfortunately no change in the situation.
While
> I had the RS232, ACC I/O board out of the K3, I checked to see if there
was
> anything else obvious there. Nothing definitive, but a couple of things
to
> note:
>
> The RS232 Application note states that "Do not use the metal shell of the
> RS232 or ACC connectors for chassis ground. They are normally isolated
from
> the chassis." On my board, the RS232 connector shell is isolated and the
> ACC connector shell is tied to frame ground. Is this normal? What is the
> reason for wanting the shells isolated? Can this contribute to the
problem
> I'm having?
>
> There is a deviance between the latest K3 schematic and my RS232 hardware.
> On both the RXD out and TXD in lines, my hardware has a 220 ohm resistor
in
> series with the inductors. No resistors are shown in the schematic.
Please

> clarify.
>
> Unfortunately, I have no other computer here with RS232, so can't try
> changing computers.
>
> What should I try next ?????
>
> I'm copying the reflector in case anyone else would like to offer
> suggestions.
>
>
> Thanks and 73
> .... Craig AC0DS
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Iain MacDonnell - N6ML-2

Re: Difficulty with K3 Utility RS232 Interface

Dick Dievendorff wrote:
> The K3 commands used to save the K3 configuration have been in the MCU
> firmware, unchanged, for as long as the save configuration capability has
> been offered. I don't believe that this is the issue. (It's not a bad
> guess, though!)

:)

> I and the rest of the K3 support team will continue to work with Craig to
> resolve this problem. One-of-a-kind problems are very much worth digging
> into, so that we solve the problem and make the necessary changes so that
> others aren't inconvenienced in the future. That's one of the several ways
> products improve. Maybe it's marginal hardware somewhere along the path.
> I've made several software changes that add or adjust retries to better
> tolerate marginal hardware issues. Maybe I can make an adjustment that
> solves Craig's problem with his existing hardware.

But since Kyle reproduced the problem with the older firmware, it
doesn't sound like a hardware issue...

> I'll be adding a diagnostic trace to the K3 Utility save/restore config so
> that Craig can capture and send me the details of the command stream that is
> causing problems. Maybe I can supply a software change to get Craig (and
> other future users) past this problem.

Yeah, I was going to ask if you had the tracing capability. Meanwhile,
using PortMon[1] to capture the traffic on the serial port might reveal
some clues...

~Iain / N6ML

[1] http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896644.aspx

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Iain MacDonnell -
> N6ML
> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 9:55 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Difficulty with K3 Utility RS232 Interface
>
>
> Hi Craig,
>
> This is a guess, but I suspect that your current firmware is too old to
> support saving its configuration with the up-to-date K3 Utility - it's
> probably trying to use some command that doesn't exist in that firmware,
> to read some configuration.
>
> It sounds like your RS232 setup is working fine. If it was me, I'd "bite
> the bullet" and go ahead with the firmware update... but you may be less
> adventurous ;)
>
> ~Iain / N6ML
>
>
>
> Craig D. Smith wrote:
>> I am trying to do a "configuration save" with the latest released K3
>> utility. I'm using a straight-thru 6 foot RS232 connection and get an
> error
>> message saying "K3 Get command failed to return the expected response
> after
>> several attempts". I posted a help request on the reflector about this a
>> week or so ago, and Dick Dievendorff was kind enough to respond with some
>> possible ways to remedy the problem. He suggested that it was possibly a
>> bad cable. I bought a new cable, and it behaves identically. BTW, both
>> cables look fine with a continuity check. Straight-thru in each of the 9
>> pins and the shells. He also sent me a couple of non-released versions of
>> the K3 Utility, thinking that they might help the situation.
> Unfortunately,
>> they behaved similarly. So I'm ready to move past the cable and software
>> and look at the hardware.
>>
>> I've tried the obvious things like reseating the RS232 connectors. Also,
> I
>> get the same message when running the I/F at each of the 4 speeds. This
>> same RS232 I/F to the K3 works flawlessly with the K3 Utility in terms of
>> reading and changing filter parameters and CW memory bank contents. It
> also
>> works perfectly for rig control/logging with both N3FJP and N1MM contest
>> software. I have had absolutely no problems with noise from the computer
> or
>> with RF in the shack. The K3 is SN 608, so has over a year under its belt
>> with never any other RS232 I/F problem. I've also used this same I/F
>> several months ago to do a configuration save and install new K3 firmware.
>> It worked just fine then.
>>
>> The present situation is that I'm running version 2.02 firmware and would
>> very much like to update it to version 3.11 so that I can have access to
>> some of the latest features. But I'm hesitant to try a firmware install
> if
>> the RS232 I/F is "flakey". The last thing I want is to have the K3
> totally
>> inoperable due to a botched attempt at a firmware upgrade.
>>
>> I saw that there was a mod in the modification list that removes the 100
> uH
>> inductor from the RS232 return line. Thought this was worth a try, so
>> jumpered out the inductor. Unfortunately no change in the situation.
> While
>> I had the RS232, ACC I/O board out of the K3, I checked to see if there
> was
>> anything else obvious there. Nothing definitive, but a couple of things
> to
>> note:
>>
>> The RS232 Application note states that "Do not use the metal shell of the
>> RS232 or ACC connectors for chassis ground. They are normally isolated
> from
>> the chassis." On my board, the RS232 connector shell is isolated and the
>> ACC connector shell is tied to frame ground. Is this normal? What is the
>> reason for wanting the shells isolated? Can this contribute to the
> problem
>> I'm having?
>>
>> There is a deviance between the latest K3 schematic and my RS232 hardware.
>> On both the RXD out and TXD in lines, my hardware has a 220 ohm resistor
> in
>> series with the inductors. No resistors are shown in the schematic.
> Please
>> clarify.
>>
>> Unfortunately, I have no other computer here with RS232, so can't try
>> changing computers.
>>
>> What should I try next ?????
>>
>> I'm copying the reflector in case anyone else would like to offer
>> suggestions.
>>
>>
>> Thanks and 73
>> .... Craig AC0DS
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Richard Davis-5

Re: Difficulty with K3 Utility RS232 Interface

In reply to this post by Dick Dievendorff

I would appreciate the same consideration as is being given Craig. I
reported this issue on April 24 as follows:

*** begin quote ***

>On this subject I offer the following:

>Just today, I attempted to save my K3 configuration using a fresh newly
>downloaded K3 Utility. The "save configuration" option failed with the
>following notice:

>+--------------------------------
>| Window title: POWER ON BANNER ERROR
>|
>| Error Msg: K3 Get command failed to return the expected response |
> | after several attempts.
>+--------------------------------

>Does this look familiar to any one?

>I am moving up from MCU 2.46/FPF0.02/DSP1_1.92 ...yeah, I
>know--ancient history. :-)

>Is it possible that the K3 Utility assumes it will only be used to
>update from some MCU version more recent that 2.46? ...say the first
>one that introduces the 'power on banner' feature?

>Since I could not get a backup of the existing configuration, I did not
>attempt to do an upgrade.

>Thoughts appreciated,

>Richard
>K5BWV

>====================================================

***end of quote***

Richard Davis
K5BWV

=====================================================

Dick Dievendorff wrote:

> The K3 commands used to save the K3 configuration have been in the MCU
> firmware, unchanged, for as long as the save configuration capability has
> been offered. I don't believe that this is the issue. (It's not a bad
> guess, though!)
>
> I and the rest of the K3 support team will continue to work with Craig to
> resolve this problem. One-of-a-kind problems are very much worth digging
> into, so that we solve the problem and make the necessary changes so that
> others aren't inconvenienced in the future. That's one of the several ways
> products improve. Maybe it's marginal hardware somewhere along the path.
> I've made several software changes that add or adjust retries to better
> tolerate marginal hardware issues. Maybe I can make an adjustment that
> solves Craig's problem with his existing hardware.
>
> I'll be adding a diagnostic trace to the K3 Utility save/restore config so
> that Craig can capture and send me the details of the command stream that is
> causing problems. Maybe I can supply a software change to get Craig (and
> other future users) past this problem.
>
> Dick, K6KR
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Iain MacDonnell -
> N6ML
> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 9:55 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Difficulty with K3 Utility RS232 Interface
>
>
> Hi Craig,
>
> This is a guess, but I suspect that your current firmware is too old to
> support saving its configuration with the up-to-date K3 Utility - it's
> probably trying to use some command that doesn't exist in that firmware,
> to read some configuration.
>
> It sounds like your RS232 setup is working fine. If it was me, I'd "bite
> the bullet" and go ahead with the firmware update... but you may be less
> adventurous ;)
>
> ~Iain / N6ML
>
>
>
> Craig D. Smith wrote:
>> I am trying to do a "configuration save" with the latest released K3
>> utility. I'm using a straight-thru 6 foot RS232 connection and get an
> error
>> message saying "K3 Get command failed to return the expected response
> after
>> several attempts". I posted a help request on the reflector about this a
>> week or so ago, and Dick Dievendorff was kind enough to respond with some
>> possible ways to remedy the problem. He suggested that it was possibly a
>> bad cable. I bought a new cable, and it behaves identically. BTW, both
>> cables look fine with a continuity check. Straight-thru in each of the 9
>> pins and the shells. He also sent me a couple of non-released versions of
>> the K3 Utility, thinking that they might help the situation.
> Unfortunately,
>> they behaved similarly. So I'm ready to move past the cable and software
>> and look at the hardware.
>>
>> I've tried the obvious things like reseating the RS232 connectors. Also,
> I
>> get the same message when running the I/F at each of the 4 speeds. This
>> same RS232 I/F to the K3 works flawlessly with the K3 Utility in terms of
>> reading and changing filter parameters and CW memory bank contents. It
> also
>> works perfectly for rig control/logging with both N3FJP and N1MM contest
>> software. I have had absolutely no problems with noise from the computer
> or
>> with RF in the shack. The K3 is SN 608, so has over a year under its belt
>> with never any other RS232 I/F problem. I've also used this same I/F
>> several months ago to do a configuration save and install new K3 firmware.
>> It worked just fine then.
>>
>> The present situation is that I'm running version 2.02 firmware and would
>> very much like to update it to version 3.11 so that I can have access to
>> some of the latest features. But I'm hesitant to try a firmware install
> if
>> the RS232 I/F is "flakey". The last thing I want is to have the K3
> totally
>> inoperable due to a botched attempt at a firmware upgrade.
>>
>> I saw that there was a mod in the modification list that removes the 100
> uH
>> inductor from the RS232 return line. Thought this was worth a try, so
>> jumpered out the inductor. Unfortunately no change in the situation.
> While
>> I had the RS232, ACC I/O board out of the K3, I checked to see if there
> was
>> anything else obvious there. Nothing definitive, but a couple of things
> to
>> note:
>>
>> The RS232 Application note states that "Do not use the metal shell of the
>> RS232 or ACC connectors for chassis ground. They are normally isolated
> from
>> the chassis." On my board, the RS232 connector shell is isolated and the
>> ACC connector shell is tied to frame ground. Is this normal? What is the
>> reason for wanting the shells isolated? Can this contribute to the
> problem
>> I'm having?
>>
>> There is a deviance between the latest K3 schematic and my RS232 hardware.
>> On both the RXD out and TXD in lines, my hardware has a 220 ohm resistor
> in
>> series with the inductors. No resistors are shown in the schematic.
> Please
>> clarify.
>>
>> Unfortunately, I have no other computer here with RS232, so can't try
>> changing computers.
>>
>> What should I try next ?????
>>
>> I'm copying the reflector in case anyone else would like to offer
>> suggestions.
>>
>>
>> Thanks and 73
>> .... Craig AC0DS
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Dick Dievendorff

Re: Difficulty with K3 Utility RS232 Interface

It could be the same issue. I'll look into this early next week. I haven't
been going back to test each and MCU level with each new K3 Utility
revision. Apparently I missed something.

Have you tried saving a configuration from a current MCU revision?

73 de Dick, K6KR

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Davis [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 3:05 PM
To: Dick Dievendorff
Cc: 'Iain MacDonnell - N6ML'; [hidden email];
[hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Difficulty with K3 Utility RS232 Interface

I would appreciate the same consideration as is being given Craig. I
reported this issue on April 24 as follows:

*** begin quote ***

>On this subject I offer the following:

>Just today, I attempted to save my K3 configuration using a fresh newly
>downloaded K3 Utility. The "save configuration" option failed with the
>following notice:

>+--------------------------------
>| Window title: POWER ON BANNER ERROR
>|
>| Error Msg: K3 Get command failed to return the expected response |
> | after several attempts.
>+--------------------------------

>Does this look familiar to any one?

>I am moving up from MCU 2.46/FPF0.02/DSP1_1.92 ...yeah, I
>know--ancient history. :-)

>Is it possible that the K3 Utility assumes it will only be used to
>update from some MCU version more recent that 2.46? ...say the first
>one that introduces the 'power on banner' feature?

>Since I could not get a backup of the existing configuration, I did not
>attempt to do an upgrade.

>Thoughts appreciated,

>Richard
>K5BWV

>====================================================

***end of quote***

Richard Davis
K5BWV

=====================================================

Dick Dievendorff wrote:

> causing problems. Maybe I can supply a software change to get Craig (and
> other future users) past this problem.
>
> Dick, K6KR
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Iain MacDonnell -
> N6ML
> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 9:55 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Difficulty with K3 Utility RS232 Interface
>
>
> Hi Craig,
>
> This is a guess, but I suspect that your current firmware is too old to
> support saving its configuration with the up-to-date K3 Utility - it's
> probably trying to use some command that doesn't exist in that firmware,
> to read some configuration.
>
> It sounds like your RS232 setup is working fine. If it was me, I'd "bite
> the bullet" and go ahead with the firmware update... but you may be less
> adventurous ;)
>
> ~Iain / N6ML
>
>
>
> Craig D. Smith wrote:
>> I am trying to do a "configuration save" with the latest released K3
>> utility. I'm using a straight-thru 6 foot RS232 connection and get an
> error
>> message saying "K3 Get command failed to return the expected response
> after
>> several attempts". I posted a help request on the reflector about this a
>> week or so ago, and Dick Dievendorff was kind enough to respond with some
>> possible ways to remedy the problem. He suggested that it was possibly a
>> bad cable. I bought a new cable, and it behaves identically. BTW, both
>> cables look fine with a continuity check. Straight-thru in each of the 9
>> pins and the shells. He also sent me a couple of non-released versions

>> the K3 Utility, thinking that they might help the situation.
> Unfortunately,
>> they behaved similarly. So I'm ready to move past the cable and software
>> and look at the hardware.
>>
>> I've tried the obvious things like reseating the RS232 connectors. Also,
> I
>> get the same message when running the I/F at each of the 4 speeds. This
>> same RS232 I/F to the K3 works flawlessly with the K3 Utility in terms of
>> reading and changing filter parameters and CW memory bank contents. It
> also
>> works perfectly for rig control/logging with both N3FJP and N1MM contest
>> software. I have had absolutely no problems with noise from the computer
> or
>> with RF in the shack. The K3 is SN 608, so has over a year under its

belt
>> with never any other RS232 I/F problem. I've also used this same I/F
>> several months ago to do a configuration save and install new K3
firmware.

>> It worked just fine then.
>>
>> The present situation is that I'm running version 2.02 firmware and would
>> very much like to update it to version 3.11 so that I can have access to
>> some of the latest features. But I'm hesitant to try a firmware install
> if
>> the RS232 I/F is "flakey". The last thing I want is to have the K3
> totally
>> inoperable due to a botched attempt at a firmware upgrade.
>>
>> I saw that there was a mod in the modification list that removes the 100
> uH
>> inductor from the RS232 return line. Thought this was worth a try, so
>> jumpered out the inductor. Unfortunately no change in the situation.
> While
>> I had the RS232, ACC I/O board out of the K3, I checked to see if there
> was
>> anything else obvious there. Nothing definitive, but a couple of things
> to
>> note:
>>
>> The RS232 Application note states that "Do not use the metal shell of the
>> RS232 or ACC connectors for chassis ground. They are normally isolated
> from
>> the chassis." On my board, the RS232 connector shell is isolated and the
>> ACC connector shell is tied to frame ground. Is this normal? What is

the
>> reason for wanting the shells isolated? Can this contribute to the
> problem
>> I'm having?
>>
>> There is a deviance between the latest K3 schematic and my RS232
hardware.

>> On both the RXD out and TXD in lines, my hardware has a 220 ohm resistor
> in
>> series with the inductors. No resistors are shown in the schematic.
> Please
>> clarify.
>>
>> Unfortunately, I have no other computer here with RS232, so can't try
>> changing computers.
>>
>> What should I try next ?????
>>
>> I'm copying the reflector in case anyone else would like to offer
>> suggestions.
>>
>>
>> Thanks and 73
>> .... Craig AC0DS
>>
>>
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>>
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>
>

Richard Davis-5

Re: Difficulty with K3 Utility RS232 Interface

Dick Dievendorff wrote:
> It could be the same issue. I'll look into this early next week. I haven't
> been going back to test each and MCU level with each new K3 Utility
> revision. Apparently I missed something.
>
> Have you tried saving a configuration from a current MCU revision?

Let's see....

The first step in the firmware upgrade should be to save the current
configuration in the event that there is an unanticipated adverse
outcome. Reader of this list can recall many examples.

Saving the current configuration is the first step in the case of the
prudently skeptical user. I am one of those users. There may be few
among us K3 owners. My view is there should be more of them.

This first step must of necessity be performed with the then existing
firmware installed in the K3.

So, my question to you Dick is:

How do I get the 'current MCU revision' loaded into the K3 without
ignoring the configuration save step?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

...and then there is the first principle of software engineering:

"BACKWARD COMPATIBILITY. Subsequent releases are always fully
compatible with all previous releases."

Perhaps that plaque needs to be dusted off and put up over the entrance
to Elecraft.

.....'this is one fine mess you've got us in Ollie'..... :-)

Richard
K5BWV

>
> 73 de Dick, K6KR
>
>
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Dick Dievendorff

Re: Difficulty with K3 Utility RS232 Interface

Richard: We disagree on your first point. Config restore restores what
is destroyed by EEINIT and is not normally a required part of the MCU
firmware load process. If you wish to save config before each firmware
load, by all means do so. It would severely inconvenience others that
load firmware many times a day if the utility required this step.

I'll look into the config save issue with very old firmware next week
when I return home. I had apparently erroneously concluded that these
issues were related to marginal cables. It now appears possible that I
have an unintended dependency on newer MCU commands. I'll try loading
very early firmware to verify this hypothesis and see what's going on.
If I find something, I'll send you an early copy of a newer K3 Utility
to verify that it addresses the issue are observing. If you'd prefer
not to wait, go ahead and load current firmware. What's saved in
config save is current control settings and calibration and filter
config. If you can redo those, there's little reason to worry about
losing config. Specifically config save does not save the frequency
memories, CW message memories or the power on banner. It saves only
the EEPROM that is erased during EEINIT.

73 de Dick, K6KR

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 24, 2009, at 10:56 PM, Richard Davis <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>
> Dick Dievendorff wrote:
>> It could be the same issue. I'll look into this early next week.
>> I haven't
>> been going back to test each and MCU level with each new K3 Utility
>> revision. Apparently I missed something.
>> Have you tried saving a configuration from a current MCU revision?
>
> Let's see....
>
> The first step in the firmware upgrade should be to save the current
> configuration in the event that there is an unanticipated adverse
> outcome. Reader of this list can recall many examples.
>
> Saving the current configuration is the first step in the case of
> the prudently skeptical user. I am one of those users. There may
> be few among us K3 owners. My view is there should be more of them.
>
> This first step must of necessity be performed with the then
> existing firmware installed in the K3.
>
> So, my question to you Dick is:
>
> How do I get the 'current MCU revision' loaded into the K3 without
> ignoring the configuration save step?
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ...and then there is the first principle of software engineering:
>
> "BACKWARD COMPATIBILITY. Subsequent releases are always fully
> compatible with all previous releases."
>
> Perhaps that plaque needs to be dusted off and put up over the
> entrance to Elecraft.
>
> .....'this is one fine mess you've got us in Ollie'..... :-)
>
> Richard
> K5BWV
>
>> 73 de Dick, K6KR

Jon Kåre Hellan

Re: Difficulty with K3 Utility RS232 Interface

Dick Dievendorff wrote:
> I'll look into the config save issue with very old firmware next week
> when I return home. I had apparently erroneously concluded that these
> issues were related to marginal cables. It now appears possible that I
> have an unintended dependency on newer MCU commands. I'll try loading
> very early firmware to verify this hypothesis and see what's going on.

Excellent. I haven't had a problem with this, but it's an important use case. Sometimes life takes
over, and you're away from the radio for years. Then you pick up your kit, now with ancient firmware,
and want to catch up. We all go through these phases.

73
Jon LA4RT, Trondheim, Norway

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