Diversity mode preamp

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Re: Diversity mode preamp

Jim Brown-10
On 11/20/2011 4:48 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
> Is there a way to lock the preamp and attenuator functions

I've missed much of the traffic in this thread, BUT -- I have integrated
Beverages into my contest station using one of the excellent preamps
that I believe you designed for DX Engineering. The result is that the
signal level from my Beverages is usually a good match for the level
from my full size transmit antennas, so I don't need to do much level
matching within the K3s.  I developed this system soon after I moved
here and installed the Beverages, and was running TS850s (with the N6TR
mod for RX antenna input), and later with MPs.

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: Contesting use

W8JI
In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3
So, what the K3 really needs then is a contest oriented application on a
computer.  Maybe something rich like PowerSDR but works with the K3 in a
manner where contesting features (logging and contest log management) along
with sophisticated macro control from a visual controls perspective.>>>

No. That would never fly for this application.

Operators need buttons or toggle switches that serve one function. Hands are
too busy.

<<<
Indeed, now that I think about it, this would be a great application if it
were designed to be configurable per each contester.  Arrangements of
controls on the screen, sophisticated macro control via custom U/I, and
other nifty features.>>>

This is a different requirement, and may be one that totally conflicts with
the target market. It may not be workable.

Operators want a big panel, big knobs, and one easy to see and hit button
that does one task. The last thing that sells into this application is a
computer keyboard, mouse, or touch screen application. This is why people
with ten or fifteen radios gravitate to the big boxes even though raw
performance is less.

<<Thus, instead of sitting in front of the K3 with its small format
presentation and the overload commands on the buttons, the computer would be
much more useful if all K3 functions were available.>>

It would be much less useful. The computer screen is full of windows
already, and clicking outside the window will stop the system from
responding.

What would be useful is a toggle switch from 1945. What would be painful is
an iPad or keyboard function.  :-)

What would be super, but I realize can never happen, is a big front panel
with one control for one function. What would be almost as good is being
able to program buttons for dedicated single functions. Like I use M1-M4 for
bandwidth changes. It is much better than the rotary knob to just poke a
preset button.

There are many things that never get used, but I am not aware of any way to
program them to a different use. Like I never use the ATU, because I don't
have one. I never use the ANT, only have one port. Never use the NB or NR,
because with a crowded band it just kills RX performance.

Moving things off the panel, unless it is something up out of the way on
another dedicated panel, is not an option.

73 Tom

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Re: Diversity mode preamp

W8JI
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
> I've missed much of the traffic in this thread, BUT -- I have integrated
> Beverages into my contest station using one of the excellent preamps
> that I believe you designed for DX Engineering. The result is that the
> signal level from my Beverages is usually a good match for the level
> from my full size transmit antennas, so I don't need to do much level
> matching within the K3s.  I developed this system soon after I moved
> here and installed the Beverages, and was running TS850s (with the N6TR
> mod for RX antenna input), and later with MPs.


A good system always balances the signal levels in. Always. I can't imagine
ever having antenna choices that have not been relatively equalized in noise
floor.

The problem is sometimes there is a need to increase or reduce gain on both
RX channels immediately, in just fractions of a second time. Say a strong
station comes on for a while, or we change directions and a modest signal
becomes strong and starts to overload, or one direction has 20 dB more
noise. Another case is the noise floor has crept up, and the op was too busy
to notice and now suddenly does but is busy.

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Re: Diversity mode preamp

ab2tc
In reply to this post by W8JI
But that sequence must have serial command equivalents which could then be supported by logging programs or made into a button macro. Making a macro that turns on or off both preamps or both attenuators also ought to be easy. The important thing is that it is a specific series of commands or button presses that have no side effects beyond the intended operation.

AB2TC - Knut

W8JI wrote
> Maybe I am missing something but won't <A/B> <preamp/att on/off> <A/B>
> work?
> This should have no side effects at all. I don't have the subreceiver but
> often use split and I do any changes to the B side this way. BSET is
> another
> button I never use.


Because:

1.) the operator is busy making two or three QSO's per minute, barely
keeping up with logging keystrokes

2.) unfamiliar with the radio already, and the buttons are close together
and serve multiple functions

3.) has to remember what to do while distracted by a dozen other things

4.) will get totally hosed if something goes wrong by a mistake

 It is competition use under pressure where the operator barely keeps up,
which is different from other use.

I understand the goals of this are entirely different than a small front
panel and people having time to think about what to do, and mistakes are not
devastating.

I don't think there is a solution here for now, because I think the problem
is too specific to contesting with diversity on multiple receiving antennas.

Thanks for all the responses. I'm fully satisfied and appreciate all the
input.

73 Tom

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Re: Diversity mode preamp

Jim Brown-10
On 11/22/2011 10:06 AM, ab2tc wrote:
> But that sequence must have serial command equivalents which could then be
> supported by logging programs or made into a button macro. Making a macro
> that turns on or off both preamps or both attenuators also ought to be easy.
> The important thing is that it is a specific series of commands or button
> presses that have no side effects beyond the intended operation.

This might lead to a solution, Knut.  The first  question is, are there
commands in firmware to do what Tom needs?  I'm pretty N1MM will send a
command string on the serial port (including a USB converted serial),
and the operation could be assigned to almost anything on the keyboard
with a Hotkey program like the one that K1TTT and N2IC recommend.  Is it
called AutoHotKey?  An example that I KNOW is possible is triggering the
DVR memories from F-Keys. The macros to do this are long and a PITA to
type into N1MM, but they work fine.

Tom -- perhaps ask about this on the N1MM list, or ping N2IC and K1TTT
directly.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Contesting use

Guy, K2AV
In reply to this post by W8JI
I would spring for a big front panel only (with some mounting
attachments) that remotes the K3 over a piece of CAT5.  Unplug the
CAT5, it goes normal.  Function of buttons configurable.  Add a "null"
front to replace the regular front panel of the K3 together with a
back plane for the normal front panel to interface the normal front
panel to the rest of a K3.  This would allow a seamless use of the
smaller or larger "remote" front panel. Add an internet front for the
radio and an internet back for the front panel , and run the radio
from anywhere over a LAN or the internet. Publish the interfacing and
let the world write K3 front panel programs for K3's with "null" front
panels.  This would be in keeping with Elecraft's modular, only buy it
if you want it, approach. Put three or four radios up on the same CRT.

73, Guy.

On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Tom W8JI <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So, what the K3 really needs then is a contest oriented application on a
> computer.  Maybe something rich like PowerSDR but works with the K3 in a
> manner where contesting features (logging and contest log management) along
> with sophisticated macro control from a visual controls perspective.>>>
>
> No. That would never fly for this application.
>
> Operators need buttons or toggle switches that serve one function. Hands are
> too busy.
>
> <<<
> Indeed, now that I think about it, this would be a great application if it
> were designed to be configurable per each contester.  Arrangements of
> controls on the screen, sophisticated macro control via custom U/I, and
> other nifty features.>>>
>
> This is a different requirement, and may be one that totally conflicts with
> the target market. It may not be workable.
>
> Operators want a big panel, big knobs, and one easy to see and hit button
> that does one task. The last thing that sells into this application is a
> computer keyboard, mouse, or touch screen application. This is why people
> with ten or fifteen radios gravitate to the big boxes even though raw
> performance is less.
>
> <<Thus, instead of sitting in front of the K3 with its small format
> presentation and the overload commands on the buttons, the computer would be
> much more useful if all K3 functions were available.>>
>
> It would be much less useful. The computer screen is full of windows
> already, and clicking outside the window will stop the system from
> responding.
>
> What would be useful is a toggle switch from 1945. What would be painful is
> an iPad or keyboard function.  :-)
>
> What would be super, but I realize can never happen, is a big front panel
> with one control for one function. What would be almost as good is being
> able to program buttons for dedicated single functions. Like I use M1-M4 for
> bandwidth changes. It is much better than the rotary knob to just poke a
> preset button.
>
> There are many things that never get used, but I am not aware of any way to
> program them to a different use. Like I never use the ATU, because I don't
> have one. I never use the ANT, only have one port. Never use the NB or NR,
> because with a crowded band it just kills RX performance.
>
> Moving things off the panel, unless it is something up out of the way on
> another dedicated panel, is not an option.
>
> 73 Tom
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: Contesting use

J&J Kulp
YES,     YES,    YES,  Sounds like my request from 2 years ago......Pse a BIG front panel for us old goats, contesters, etc....

jim   K3SW



On Nov 22, 2011, at 1:46 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

> I would spring for a big front panel only (with some mounting
> attachments) that remotes the K3 over a piece of CAT5.  Unplug the
> CAT5, it goes normal.  Function of buttons configurable.  Add a "null"
> front to replace the regular front panel of the K3 together with a
> back plane for the normal front panel to interface the normal front
> panel to the rest of a K3.  This would allow a seamless use of the
> smaller or larger "remote" front panel. Add an internet front for the
> radio and an internet back for the front panel , and run the radio
> from anywhere over a LAN or the internet. Publish the interfacing and
> let the world write K3 front panel programs for K3's with "null" front
> panels.  This would be in keeping with Elecraft's modular, only buy it
> if you want it, approach. Put three or four radios up on the same CRT.
>
> 73, Guy.
>
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Tom W8JI <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> So, what the K3 really needs then is a contest oriented application on a
>> computer.  Maybe something rich like PowerSDR but works with the K3 in a
>> manner where contesting features (logging and contest log management) along
>> with sophisticated macro control from a visual controls perspective.>>>
>>
>> No. That would never fly for this application.
>>
>> Operators need buttons or toggle switches that serve one function. Hands are
>> too busy.
>>
>> <<<
>> Indeed, now that I think about it, this would be a great application if it
>> were designed to be configurable per each contester.  Arrangements of
>> controls on the screen, sophisticated macro control via custom U/I, and
>> other nifty features.>>>
>>
>> This is a different requirement, and may be one that totally conflicts with
>> the target market. It may not be workable.
>>
>> Operators want a big panel, big knobs, and one easy to see and hit button
>> that does one task. The last thing that sells into this application is a
>> computer keyboard, mouse, or touch screen application. This is why people
>> with ten or fifteen radios gravitate to the big boxes even though raw
>> performance is less.
>>
>> <<Thus, instead of sitting in front of the K3 with its small format
>> presentation and the overload commands on the buttons, the computer would be
>> much more useful if all K3 functions were available.>>
>>
>> It would be much less useful. The computer screen is full of windows
>> already, and clicking outside the window will stop the system from
>> responding.
>>
>> What would be useful is a toggle switch from 1945. What would be painful is
>> an iPad or keyboard function.  :-)
>>
>> What would be super, but I realize can never happen, is a big front panel
>> with one control for one function. What would be almost as good is being
>> able to program buttons for dedicated single functions. Like I use M1-M4 for
>> bandwidth changes. It is much better than the rotary knob to just poke a
>> preset button.
>>
>> There are many things that never get used, but I am not aware of any way to
>> program them to a different use. Like I never use the ATU, because I don't
>> have one. I never use the ANT, only have one port. Never use the NB or NR,
>> because with a crowded band it just kills RX performance.
>>
>> Moving things off the panel, unless it is something up out of the way on
>> another dedicated panel, is not an option.
>>
>> 73 Tom
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: Diversity mode preamp

W8JI
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
> This might lead to a solution, Knut.  The first  question is, are there
> commands in firmware to do what Tom needs?

Tom doesn't really need anything. Guest operators are the real worry.
Things have to be easy.

   :-)


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Re: Diversity mode preamp

ab2tc
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
I'll study the command reference manual when I get home and see if the needed commands are there.

AB2TC - Knut

Jim Brown-10 wrote
<snip>
This might lead to a solution, Knut.  The first  question is, are there
commands in firmware to do what Tom needs?  I'm pretty N1MM will send a
command string on the serial port (including a USB converted serial),
and the operation could be assigned to almost anything on the keyboard
with a Hotkey program like the one that K1TTT and N2IC recommend.  Is it
called AutoHotKey?  An example that I KNOW is possible is triggering the
DVR memories from F-Keys. The macros to do this are long and a PITA to
type into N1MM, but they work fine.

Tom -- perhaps ask about this on the N1MM list, or ping N2IC and K1TTT
directly.

73, Jim K9YC
<snip again>
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Re: Diversity mode preamp

Joe Subich, W4TV-4
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10


 > The first  question is, are there commands in firmware to do what Tom
 > needs?

Yes, Preamp Off:      PA0;PA$0;
      Preamp On:       PA1;PA$1;
      Attenuator Off:  RA00;RA$00;
      Attenuator On:   RA01;RA$01;

It's quite simple if one reads the K3 Programmer's Reference instead of
blindly demand changes to the K3 firmware.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 11/22/2011 1:16 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 11/22/2011 10:06 AM, ab2tc wrote:
>> But that sequence must have serial command equivalents which could then be
>> supported by logging programs or made into a button macro. Making a macro
>> that turns on or off both preamps or both attenuators also ought to be easy.
>> The important thing is that it is a specific series of commands or button
>> presses that have no side effects beyond the intended operation.
>
> This might lead to a solution, Knut.  The first  question is, are there
> commands in firmware to do what Tom needs?  I'm pretty N1MM will send a
> command string on the serial port (including a USB converted serial),
> and the operation could be assigned to almost anything on the keyboard
> with a Hotkey program like the one that K1TTT and N2IC recommend.  Is it
> called AutoHotKey?  An example that I KNOW is possible is triggering the
> DVR memories from F-Keys. The macros to do this are long and a PITA to
> type into N1MM, but they work fine.
>
> Tom -- perhaps ask about this on the N1MM list, or ping N2IC and K1TTT
> directly.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: Diversity mode preamp

Jim Brown-10
On 11/22/2011 12:01 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> Yes, Preamp Off:      PA0;PA$0;
>      Preamp On:       PA1;PA$1;
>      Attenuator Off:  RA00;RA$00;
>      Attenuator On:   RA01;RA$01;

Is there a way to do this for both receivers?
>
> It's quite simple if one reads the K3 Programmer's Reference instead of
> blindly demand changes to the K3 firmware.

Yes. Please observe that I was not the one asking for changes, but
rather asking it the commands are already there.  :)

It should also be noted that K6XX, a top contester with a great multi-op
station and an excellent engineer, has been part of the engineering team
at Elecraft for some time now.

 >Tom doesn't really need anything. Guest operators are the real worry.

Understood, and I'm sure that XX understands that too.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Contesting use

Mike Markowski-2
In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV
<Tongue-in-cheek alert>

And customizable buttons like on this keyboard??

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard

or

   http://ergodex.com/mainpage.htm

:-)

73,
Mike ab3ap

On 11/22/2011 01:46 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
> I would spring for a big front panel only (with some mounting
> attachments) that remotes the K3 over a piece of CAT5.  Unplug the
> CAT5, it goes normal.  Function of buttons configurable.  [...]
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Re: Diversity mode preamp

gm3sek
In reply to this post by wayne burdick
Wayne Burdick wrote:

>>> I use B SET to adjust preamp and other settings when using diversity.

>> And using B SET is about the most cumbersome operation imaginable to
>>simply  check (or set) subrx preamp.

>Macros?

With great respect, macros are not the answer to every usability
problem.

Macros are enormously powerful, but they are not a substitute for
cleaning up the rough edges that still remain in the K3's firmware.

Macros need to be used sparingly because the K3 only has two completely
uncommitted programmable keys (PF1 and PF2). Any additional macros will
either block some of the normal functions of the Memory/DVR keys or else
they must be executed from outside the K3. Each of those workarounds
will create problems for a segment of users.

And then there's the SPLIT button. The one button that above all others
*should* be reassignable to a macro, is not!

The K3's SPLIT button simply engages split mode and does nothing more.
Every other high-end transceiver has the option to protect the user from
accidentally transmitting on the same frequency as VFOA - and most DXers
will want to take that option. But in the K3, this 'smart split' option
requires a macro which must then be assigned to some *other*
programmable key. The existing SPLIT button then becomes a booby-trap
for the tired owner; or even worse, it risks a very unpleasant
introduction to the K3 for someone else.

I'm sorry if this reads like a rant, but someone just said "Macros?" one
time too many.


--

73 from Ian GM3SEK
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek
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Re: Diversity mode preamp

Bruce Beford-2
In reply to this post by W8JI
> Yes, Preamp Off:      PA0;PA$0;
>      Preamp On:       PA1;PA$1;
>      Attenuator Off:  RA00;RA$00;
>      Attenuator On:   RA01;RA$01;

> Is there a way to do this for both receivers?

Yes- the commands with the dollar signs ($) target the subrx.
-Bruce, N1RX



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Re: Diversity mode preamp

Joe Subich, W4TV-4
In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

 >> Yes, Preamp Off:      PA0;PA$0;
 >>       Preamp On:       PA1;PA$1;
 >>       Attenuator Off:  RA00;RA$00;
 >>       Attenuator On:   RA01;RA$01;
 >
 > Is there a way to do this for both receivers?

Yes, this does it for both receivers ... for example PA0; does the
main receiver and PA$0l does the KRX3.

 > Yes. Please observe that I was not the one asking for changes, but
 > rather asking it the commands are already there.  :)

I know that but it takes less time to read the programmers guide and
write the macros in AutoHotkey (add CATASC for N1MM to send the
information in the CAT stream) than has been wasted on this topic in
the last two days.

It would very little time to design a keyboard with microprocessor
and two serial ports ... DATA IN and DATA OUT ... to set between the
computer and K3 to add any given number of special commands (like
the four already shown).  The hardware is probably available off the
shelf from X-Keys.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 11/22/2011 3:23 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 11/22/2011 12:01 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>> Yes, Preamp Off:      PA0;PA$0;
>>       Preamp On:       PA1;PA$1;
>>       Attenuator Off:  RA00;RA$00;
>>       Attenuator On:   RA01;RA$01;
>
> Is there a way to do this for both receivers?
>>
>> It's quite simple if one reads the K3 Programmer's Reference instead of
>> blindly demand changes to the K3 firmware.
>
> Yes. Please observe that I was not the one asking for changes, but
> rather asking it the commands are already there.  :)
>
> It should also be noted that K6XX, a top contester with a great multi-op
> station and an excellent engineer, has been part of the engineering team
> at Elecraft for some time now.
>
>   >Tom doesn't really need anything. Guest operators are the real worry.
>
> Understood, and I'm sure that XX understands that too.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Contesting use

Bill W4ZV
In reply to this post by Mike Markowski-2
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Re: Diversity mode preamp

W8JI
In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4
> I know that but it takes less time to read the programmers guide and
> write the macros in AutoHotkey (add CATASC for N1MM to send the
> information in the CAT stream) than has been wasted on this topic in
> the last two days.

Fine. Some people who use N1MM will get used to that.

Now tell me how to get it to work for the people who insist on using CT and
want to operate.

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Re: Diversity mode preamp

ab2tc
In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4
Hi again,

I did get the latest programmer's reference and see to my surprise that it is more than a year old and I don't see any sign of an errata addendum. As I know for sure that there are more recent additions (such as the fine resolution S-meter request) how do I find the latest information?

AB2TC - Knut

PS. The below information would seem to solve the OP's problem by creating a macro using these commands.

Joe Subich, W4TV-4 wrote
>> Yes, Preamp Off:      PA0;PA$0;
 >>       Preamp On:       PA1;PA$1;
 >>       Attenuator Off:  RA00;RA$00;
 >>       Attenuator On:   RA01;RA$01;
 >
 > Is there a way to do this for both receivers?

Yes, this does it for both receivers ... for example PA0; does the
main receiver and PA$0l does the KRX3.

<snip>
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Re: Diversity mode preamp

Joe Subich, W4TV-4
In reply to this post by W8JI

> Now tell me how to get it to work for the people who insist on using
> CT and want to operate.

Give up on the dinosaur dung, move to Win-Test (which has an interface
identical to CT) and make use of the LUA scripting capability to do the
same thing there.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 11/22/2011 5:15 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:

>> I know that but it takes less time to read the programmers guide and
>> write the macros in AutoHotkey (add CATASC for N1MM to send the
>> information in the CAT stream) than has been wasted on this topic in
>> the last two days.
>
> Fine. Some people who use N1MM will get used to that.
>
> Now tell me how to get it to work for the people who insist on using CT
> and want to operate.
>
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Re: Diversity mode preamp

W8JI
Thanks for all the help, and the links to Yaesu radios by W4ZV.

73 All! Topic closed for me anyway.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Tom W8JI" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Diversity mode preamp


>
>> Now tell me how to get it to work for the people who insist on using
>> CT and want to operate.
>
> Give up on the dinosaur dung, move to Win-Test (which has an interface
> identical to CT) and make use of the LUA scripting capability to do the
> same thing there.
>
> 73,
>
>    ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 11/22/2011 5:15 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
>>> I know that but it takes less time to read the programmers guide and
>>> write the macros in AutoHotkey (add CATASC for N1MM to send the
>>> information in the CAT stream) than has been wasted on this topic in
>>> the last two days.
>>
>> Fine. Some people who use N1MM will get used to that.
>>
>> Now tell me how to get it to work for the people who insist on using CT
>> and want to operate.
>>
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