Don's comments on ESSB and AM
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Don I agree with you both physiologically and technically about the ESSB and AM modes on the amateur radio bands. However, we have K3 radios that are configured to support all these modes. For that reason (IMHO), I believe it's important that they be properly supported and maintained by Elecraft or dropped as supported modes. There are at least two popular radios made by competitors that have attracted a portion of customers by offering ESSB as a mode. And there are groupies running AM especially on 160 meters, some with K3s. There are also broadcasters running ESSB in growing numbers with the FLEX and Yaseu 3000/5000 radios. I hear them often. Why? I don't get it but its real. The owner base of K3 users tend represent those who want to experienment and operate with all that's possible. The K3 can do that and play well in the company of the alternatives. 73, John, W1QS ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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It may interest folks Stateside but there is a growing amount of AM activity on 5MHz in the UK, I've had great reports using my K3 on AM. Most of the guys however are using ex military equipment and boat anchors. We do have more bandwidth over here though.
Best regards, Tim Hague Skype m0afj.Tim Sent on my iPad On 29 Jan 2013, at 00:32, John Lawrence <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Don > > I agree with you both physiologically and technically about the ESSB and AM modes on the > amateur radio bands. > > However, we have K3 radios that are configured to support all these modes. For that reason (IMHO), I believe it's important that they be properly supported and maintained by Elecraft or dropped as supported modes. > > There are at least two popular radios made by competitors that have attracted a portion of customers by offering ESSB as a mode. And there are groupies running AM especially on 160 meters, some with K3s. There are also broadcasters running ESSB in growing numbers with the FLEX and Yaseu 3000/5000 radios. I hear them often. Why? I don't get it but its real. The owner base of K3 users tend represent those who want to experienment and operate with all that's possible. The K3 can do that and play well in the company of the alternatives. > > 73, > > > John, W1QS > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Don's comments on ESSB and AM
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In reply to this post by John Lawrence
>...those who want "studio quality" SSB
>should obtain a commercial broadcasting license and use that instead... >...My opinion of AM on the ham bands is similar... Gee, guys, I enjoy AM on 75, 15 and 10m with my vintage equipment, and enjoy even more refurbishing the gear to be able to do that. If you're going to deny me that pleasure, then please deny digital operations in my CW portions of the bands. Ralph, VE7XF ps: I do, however, agree with you about ESSB, so I'm not 'fair and balanced' either :-) pps: When I started, SSB was quite rare on the ham bands. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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On 1/28/2013 11:50 PM, Ralph Parker wrote:
> pps: When I started, SSB was quite rare on the ham bands. Same for me, but AM is nothing I remember fondly, and I was quite happy to see it replaced by a mode that works far better and occupies half the bandwidth. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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I'm not picking a fight.
>>> I was quite happy to see it replaced <<< Jim Sir. Was AM replaced by SSB? Or, was SSB an alternate mode to AM? I'm sure this debate can and has been going on since the devil was a boy. Lets remind ourselves that this a Hobby and we are classified as AMATEUR. PS: Let us respect Eric's request, and irrespective of our opinion, agree to disagree. (((73))) Milverton. >________________________________ > From: Jim Brown <[hidden email]> >To: [hidden email] >Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 2:11 AM >Subject: [Elecraft] The Old Days > >On 1/28/2013 11:50 PM, Ralph Parker wrote: >> pps: When I started, SSB was quite rare on the ham bands. > >Same for me, but AM is nothing I remember fondly, and I was quite happy to see it replaced by a mode that works far better and occupies half the bandwidth. > >73, Jim K9YC >______________________________________________________________ >Elecraft mailing list >Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >Post: mailto:[hidden email] > >This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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That seems like an odd and unnecessary disclaimer, but in reply I'll offer the opinion that the ratio of vinyl to CD's is roughly the same order of magnitude as the ratio of AM to SSB in ham radio*... and I'm pretty sure that most people would say that CDs replaced vinyl long ago. That doesn't mean that AM is an invalid mode, at least not as long as the FCC still allows it, but I think it's pretty certain that the bands would be a horrible mess if everyone was still using AM. 73, Dave AB7E * Before anyone takes issue with my comparison, keep in mind that the ratio of vinyl to CDs is skewed to the high side because CDs themselves are declining in favor of direct downloads. On 1/29/2013 1:26 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > Jim Sir. Was AM replaced by SSB? Or, was SSB an alternate mode to AM? > I'm sure this debate can and has been going on since the devil was a > boy. Lets remind ourselves that this a Hobby and we are classified as > AMATEUR. PS: Let us respect Eric's request, and irrespective of our > opinion, agree to disagree. (((73))) Milverton. >> __ ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Don's comments on ESSB and AM
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In reply to this post by M0AFJ
Tim, M0AFJ
AM operation here is made up by a niche of interesting guys who are enjoying the hobby just like the antique auto folks. The group here is made up of mostly long term retired hams who are having FUN with AM. Being able to join in with a K3 on AM is just another example of the flexibility of this great radio. And yes, the K3 offers outstanding AM quality over the air. Thanks 73, John, W1QS ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by David Gilbert
It always "pains me to no end" when some of the "older things" are compared
unfavorably to some of the newer technology. A lot of "older" things served us VERY WELL giving us what then were "wonders" when we had nothing else better! Spark telegraphy WAS a mess and crude! But it worked and saved a lot of lives at sea that would have been lost. It was replaced by "CW" or continuous wave Morse transmitters and regenerative receivers which were invented by the efforts of Lee deForest and Edwin Armstrong. Armstrong later invented the superheterodyne receiver which is still the "standard" receiver design! Radiotelephone started with "AM" or Amplitude Modulation which everyone used until SSSC (single sideband suppressed carrier) popularly known as just "SSB" replaced it very slowly after World War 2. Armstrong AGAIN invented wideband FM which didn't really "take off" until much after WW2 in broadcasting. It became a staple for VHF/UHF radio communication for business band, police and industrial use for "two way" communication. There are digitally enhanced forms of VHF/UHF radio now widely used such as "cell phones" and other types of devices only dreamed of not more than 2-3 decades ago! "Ancient AM" is still used today, but basically only for two purposes. One is AM broadcasting from about 550-1700 Khz. A holdover from "ancient times" dying but "still alive and kicking" Second it is used for aircraft communication from about 108-135 Mhz or so. An ESSENTIAL to safe airborne communications and safety. The military still uses it in the 225-400 Mhz band in mostly jet aircraft. WHY not SSB or FM? well because it "does the job" and it is reliable and the circuitry is much simpler! Yes we do have satellite communication...BUT..this requires very complex infrastructure which is much more subject to possible failure due the very complexity of the systems. Also very expensive in the first place. Lastly older "Morse" telegraphy commonly called "CW" by the last users: the Amateur Radio Service. You MUST learn to send and receive Morse code. It requires the simplest of transmitters and receivers and only the ability to use one's "brain" and ears! No complex "interpreters" in the form of other equipment is required (like digital computers) to send and receive messages. Messages can be sent in an encrypted form or a foreign language without the operator knowing what the message might contain! YES, maybe some people have declared it obsolete, but it is STILL useful and still practiced by hundreds of thousands of "ham" operators all over the globe. There is still a "place" for the "old stuff" along with all the newer, unusual, "Gee Whiz" technology coming out and being conceived YET by inventors and engineers worldwide. A lot of it is "old" but still is "useful"! Don't knock it too badly! 73, Sandy W5TVW -----Original Message----- From: David Gilbert Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 3:04 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Old Days That seems like an odd and unnecessary disclaimer, but in reply I'll offer the opinion that the ratio of vinyl to CD's is roughly the same order of magnitude as the ratio of AM to SSB in ham radio*... and I'm pretty sure that most people would say that CDs replaced vinyl long ago. That doesn't mean that AM is an invalid mode, at least not as long as the FCC still allows it, but I think it's pretty certain that the bands would be a horrible mess if everyone was still using AM. 73, Dave AB7E * Before anyone takes issue with my comparison, keep in mind that the ratio of vinyl to CDs is skewed to the high side because CDs themselves are declining in favor of direct downloads. On 1/29/2013 1:26 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > Jim Sir. Was AM replaced by SSB? Or, was SSB an alternate mode to AM? I'm > sure this debate can and has been going on since the devil was a boy. Lets > remind ourselves that this a Hobby and we are classified as AMATEUR. PS: > Let us respect Eric's request, and irrespective of our opinion, agree to > disagree. (((73))) Milverton. >> __ ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6064 - Release Date: 01/28/13 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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* On 2013 29 Jan 14:34 -0600, Sandy wrote:
> "Ancient AM" is still used today, but basically only for two > purposes. One is AM broadcasting from about 550-1700 Khz. A > holdover from "ancient times" dying but "still alive and kicking" > Second it is used for aircraft communication from about 108-135 Mhz > or so. An ESSENTIAL to safe airborne communications and safety. > The military still uses it in the 225-400 Mhz band in mostly jet > aircraft. WHY not SSB or FM? well because it "does the job" and it > is reliable and the circuitry is much simpler! The conclusion here may well be part of it. A coworker who worked in avionics in a former life told me that the use of AM for aircraft communications is indeed for the ease of tuning but also because a weaker station can be heard under a stronger one unlike with FM and its capture effect (likely true for digital). AM allows an air controller or other aircraft to hear an emergency call when another station is transmitting. Based on my experience, I have no reason to doubt his conclusion. 73, de Nate, N0NB >> -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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The conclusion here may well be part of it. A coworker who worked in avionics in a former life told me that the use of AM for aircraft communications is indeed for the ease of tuning but also because a weaker station can be heard under a stronger one unlike with FM and its capture effect (likely true for digital). AM allows an air controller or other aircraft to hear an emergency call when another station is transmitting. Based on my experience, I have no reason to doubt his conclusion. 73, de Nate, N0NB >> Nate, that is exactly the reason AM is still used for aviation. 73 Bill NZ0T (old pilot). |
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The old Four-Course Radio Range depended on the fact that two AM signals
on the same frequency mix linearly. Off course one way, the pilot heard primarily an "N". Off course the other, primarily an "A". On course, the two covered each other and he heard a steady tone. It is extremely sensitive, you didn't have to be very far off course before you began to hear the letter faintly under the tone. The other huge advantage was it required only an AM radio and headphones in the aircraft. CONSOL, a 30's/early 40's aircraft nav system is another example. Fairly complex phased antennas on the ground. In the airplane, all the navigator had to do was count the number of dots he heard before they merged into a tone, and then look on a chart to determine his bearing to the station. Again, just an AM receiver. CONSOL was used by both the German and Allied air forces, possibly the only such system ever. The Allied planes used it to compute the winds crossing the Channel before they reached the coastline. Old isn't always crude. I've never transmitted AM with my K3, I don't have the filter(s), but it works with WWV. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013 - www.cqp.org On 1/29/2013 1:58 PM, NZ0T wrote: > > Nate, that is exactly the reason AM is still used for aviation. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by NZ0T
I was personally in military avionics during the days of the SCR-522 and
ARC-3 (both VHF). Later with the Collins ARC-27 and the RCA ARC-34 which were both UHF sets (225-400 Mhz.) I know FM was proposed by some at one time and it was nixed due to the "capture effect" and SSB also proposed but nixed due to additional complications of tighter frequency stability. They finally "split" the channeling to get more frequency space assignable by using smaller guard bands between channels. I was gone from the military avionics when that happened. In an Air National Guard group flying F-102A's at the time. They are now flying F-15's! That has been some time ago when everything was vacuum tubes! 73, Sandy W5TVW -----Original Message----- From: NZ0T Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 3:58 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Old Days The conclusion here may well be part of it. A coworker who worked in avionics in a former life told me that the use of AM for aircraft communications is indeed for the ease of tuning but also because a weaker station can be heard under a stronger one unlike with FM and its capture effect (likely true for digital). AM allows an air controller or other aircraft to hear an emergency call when another station is transmitting. Based on my experience, I have no reason to doubt his conclusion. 73, de Nate, N0NB >> Nate, that is exactly the reason AM is still used for aviation. 73 Bill NZ0T (old pilot). -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Don-s-comments-on-ESSB-and-AM-tp7569294p7569345.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6064 - Release Date: 01/28/13 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Nate Bargmann
What little bit of flying I did was in J-3's and the Aeronca Champion. Both
had no electrical system and we paid attention to the tower and the "donut gun" for visual signals on the ground and in the traffic pattern. Once you got out of the pattern, you were on your own VFR only! A pilot had to keep his head "out of his ass" at all times to survive if he was prudent! 73, Sandy W5TVW -----Original Message----- From: Ron D'Eau Claire Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 6:38 PM To: 'Elecraft List' Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Old Days That was the reason I was given when I was flying a lot in the 1950's. And, on more than one occasion it proved correct when another aircraft "stepped" on my exchange with the tower. Probably unbelievable to pilots today, but in the 50's it was common to fly into large commercial airports such as McCarren in Las Vegas, Lindbergh in San Diego or LAX Los Angeles International on tower blinker lights alone too! Talk about the "old days" Hi!! 73, Ron AC7AC -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Walter Underwood Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 1:23 PM To: Elecraft List Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Old Days This is exactly why AM is used instead of FM. It has better weak signal performance and two signals mix linearly. wunder K6WRU ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6064 - Release Date: 01/28/13 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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