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Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

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Phillip Buckholdt-2

Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

Anyone installed the K144XV yet ?
Comments

Phil K8MBY
# 609
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Bruce Beford-2

Re: Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

Phil K8MBY asked:

> Anyone installed the K144XV yet ?
> Comments

I asked the same question earlier this week. No one responded. I note that
the K144XV firmware update utility mentioned in the docs has not been posted
yet. Perhaps the shipment schedule has slipped again.

Some word from Wayne or Eric on the shipment status of the K144XV would most
welcome.

Bruce, N1RX

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wayne burdick

Re: Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

Administrator

Firmware is finished. K144XV PC utility (for loading firmware) is also
finished. A small number of units have been shipped and a lot more are
about to be.

Early reports have been very positive. I suspect some may show up on
the reflector any day now.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Jan 7, 2010, at 12:39 PM, Bruce Beford wrote:

> Phil K8MBY asked:
>
>> Anyone installed the K144XV yet ?
>> Comments
>
> I asked the same question earlier this week. No one responded. I
> note that
> the K144XV firmware update utility mentioned in the docs has not
> been posted
> yet. Perhaps the shipment schedule has slipped again.
>
> Some word from Wayne or Eric on the shipment status of the K144XV
> would most
> welcome.
>
> Bruce, N1RX
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

Administrator

In reply to this post by Bruce Beford-2

We're shipping K144XVs. :-) There are a lot of early orders as part of
a very large backlog. We're working through confirming and shipping
those right now.

The K144XV specific utility hasn't been posted because there is no need
for it yet. We haven't released any firmware updates to the basic 144XV
uC itself. (Its much less complex than the maionK3 code and has been
very stable. ) The K144XV downloader will actually will be part of K3
Utility under a different tab, since the K144XV is a K3 Option. We have
the utility in use internally and are just making sure its ready for
prime time before release. It will certainly be released before we
release any code updates for the K144XV uC.

Most updates for the K144XV operation will be part of the regular K3
firmware, (through normal K3 downloads from K3 Utility) since the
overall operation of the K144XV is controlled from the K3's front panel
uC. most feature changes will happen there.

73, Eric WA6HHQ

Bruce Beford wrote:

> Phil K8MBY asked:
>
>
>> Anyone installed the K144XV yet ?
>> Comments
>>
>
> I asked the same question earlier this week. No one responded. I note that
> the K144XV firmware update utility mentioned in the docs has not been posted
> yet. Perhaps the shipment schedule has slipped again.
>
> Some word from Wayne or Eric on the shipment status of the K144XV would most
> welcome.
>
> Bruce, N1RX
>

AD6XY

Re: Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

I am intrigued.

Why does the K144XV need any firmware apart from on/off like the XV-144? Can it do other things? I have been meaning to ask for a while, how will it control my 2m PA which is not the same as the HF PA, and will it allow a delay for the relays and pre-amp like the XV144 does? Is there volts up the coax for a pre-amp?

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote

The K144XV specific utility hasn't been posted because there is no need
for it yet. We haven't released any firmware updates to the basic 144XV
uC itself. (Its much less complex than the maionK3 code and has been
very stable. )
73, Eric WA6HHQ

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

Administrator

In reply to this post by Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Correction to my posting:

Dick, Our download Utility author, just told me we actually will release
the K144XV utility as a separate downloader form K3 Utility. that's what
we are using now in-house. All my other comments though are correct. ;-)

Running too fast this afternoon!

73, Eric

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote:

> We're shipping K144XVs. :-) There are a lot of early orders as part of
> a very large backlog. We're working through confirming and shipping
> those right now.
>
> The K144XV specific utility hasn't been posted because there is no need
> for it yet. We haven't released any firmware updates to the basic 144XV
> uC itself. (Its much less complex than the maionK3 code and has been
> very stable. ) The K144XV downloader will actually will be part of K3
> Utility under a different tab, since the K144XV is a K3 Option. We have
> the utility in use internally and are just making sure its ready for
> prime time before release. It will certainly be released before we
> release any code updates for the K144XV uC.
>
> Most updates for the K144XV operation will be part of the regular K3
> firmware, (through normal K3 downloads from K3 Utility) since the
> overall operation of the K144XV is controlled from the K3's front panel
> uC. most feature changes will happen there.
>
> 73, Eric WA6HHQ
>
>
>
>
>
> Bruce Beford wrote:
>
>> Phil K8MBY asked:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Anyone installed the K144XV yet ?
>>> Comments
>>>
>>>
>> I asked the same question earlier this week. No one responded. I note that
>> the K144XV firmware update utility mentioned in the docs has not been posted
>> yet. Perhaps the shipment schedule has slipped again.
>>
>> Some word from Wayne or Eric on the shipment status of the K144XV would most
>> welcome.
>>
>> Bruce, N1RX
>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Bruce Beford-2

Re: Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

In reply to this post by Phillip Buckholdt-2

Thanks, Guys. I appreciate the updates.
I am one of those who "ordered early" (within minutes of the page going up).

I appreciate the passion you guys (and the whole staff) pour into all the
Elecraft products.

73,
Bruce N1RX
(K1, KX1, K2, K3... Yada, Yada)

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Matt Zilmer

Re: Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

In reply to this post by Phillip Buckholdt-2

I installed a production K144XV recently. It's been in K3 #24 for
about 10 days, and there haven't been any real issues with it.

Mechanical installation went according to plan, and takes about 60
minutes. There is one power pin that needs to be soldered down to a
pad on the RF Board to power the module. This step take more time
than all the rest.

FM / SSB / CW all worked fine with only a minor calibration on the
WMTR MW. It's a good step to follow, and it's referred to in the
assembly instructions.

On the air testing went well, with FM and SSB working first time and
no K3 transmit adjustments needed. For most if not all users, adding
the K144XV is transparent from the op's point of view. You just added
a band to the radio... No hassle operating it.

The noise figure is extremely low (1.0 dB or less) with the
transverter, so with the K3 using it, it hears quite well. As with
the other bands, you can pretty much receive with preamp off and RF
GAIN at one or two o'clock.

No weirdness on TX either. Just good audio reports like with a
normally equipped K3.

Sensitivity is better than -125 dBm, and I think the MDS is perhaps 10
dB better than this figure. My signal generator only goes down to
-125. At this signal strength, you hear a readily discernable signal
(tone in my case). I've worked quite a few stations > 40 miles out
with just a 3 element Yagi at 20 feet. And that's using only the 10W
provided by the K144XV.

73,
matt W6NIA
K3 #24

On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 12:54:52 -0500, you wrote:

>Anyone installed the K144XV yet ?
>Comments
>
> Phil K8MBY
> # 609
>______________________________________________________________
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wayne burdick

Re: Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

Administrator

On Jan 7, 2010, at 1:54 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote:

> I installed a production K144XV recently. It's been in K3 #24 for
> about 10 days, and there haven't been any real issues with it.
>
> Mechanical installation went according to plan, and takes about 60
> minutes. There is one power pin that needs to be soldered down to a
> pad on the RF Board to power the module. This step take more time
> than all the rest.

This has already been added to production RF boards, but those with
existing K3s will need to solder the pin in.

> Sensitivity is better than -125 dBm, and I think the MDS is perhaps 10
> dB better than this figure....

It's actually more like -144 dBm (500-Hz bandwidth). Maybe you were
referring to FM sensitivity at 10 dB S+N/N? A much wider bandwidth is
used in that case.

Wayne
N6KR

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Matt Zilmer

Re: Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

>
>> Mechanical installation went according to plan, and takes about 60
>> minutes. There is one power pin that needs to be soldered down to a
>> pad on the RF Board to power the module. This step take more time
>> than all the rest.
>
>This has already been added to production RF boards, but those with
>existing K3s will need to solder the pin in.

Well, #24 needed it.
>
>> Sensitivity is better than -125 dBm, and I think the MDS is perhaps 10
>> dB better than this figure....
>
>It's actually more like -144 dBm (500-Hz bandwidth). Maybe you were
>referring to FM sensitivity at 10 dB S+N/N? A much wider bandwidth is
>used in that case.

I was using SSB, 2.8 KHz for this measurement. -125 is the best the
old HP8656B can do. At that level, the signal is solid, readily
usable. I KNOW the MDS is way down from here, but I couldn't measure
it easily.

For FM, I didn't try the measurement. I was too busy with "fun with
distortion" finagling. If I measure FM sensitivity, what would you
expect (er, what did you measure in the lab)?

I'll borrow an attentuator and a couple patch cables, and see where I
measure the MDS using 500 Hz BW. Want to bet it's within spittin'
distance of -144? :)

I can repost with these results, but I will clear them with you and/or
Eric first. The spec sheet doesn't show MDS.

matt
>
>Wayne
>N6KR
>
>
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Samuel Strongin

Re: Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

In reply to this post by Matt Zilmer

If sensitivity is less -140dbm on 2 meters it is DEAF!!!
Sam kf4yox

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Matt Zilmer" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 4:54 PM
To: "Phillip Buckholdt" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft List" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

> I installed a production K144XV recently. It's been in K3 #24 for
> about 10 days, and there haven't been any real issues with it.
>
> Mechanical installation went according to plan, and takes about 60
> minutes. There is one power pin that needs to be soldered down to a
> pad on the RF Board to power the module. This step take more time
> than all the rest.
>
> FM / SSB / CW all worked fine with only a minor calibration on the
> WMTR MW. It's a good step to follow, and it's referred to in the
> assembly instructions.
>
> On the air testing went well, with FM and SSB working first time and
> no K3 transmit adjustments needed. For most if not all users, adding
> the K144XV is transparent from the op's point of view. You just added
> a band to the radio... No hassle operating it.
>
> The noise figure is extremely low (1.0 dB or less) with the
> transverter, so with the K3 using it, it hears quite well. As with
> the other bands, you can pretty much receive with preamp off and RF
> GAIN at one or two o'clock.
>
> No weirdness on TX either. Just good audio reports like with a
> normally equipped K3.
>
> Sensitivity is better than -125 dBm, and I think the MDS is perhaps 10
> dB better than this figure. My signal generator only goes down to
> -125. At this signal strength, you hear a readily discernable signal
> (tone in my case). I've worked quite a few stations > 40 miles out
> with just a 3 element Yagi at 20 feet. And that's using only the 10W
> provided by the K144XV.
>
> 73,
> matt W6NIA
> K3 #24
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 12:54:52 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Anyone installed the K144XV yet ?
>>Comments
>>
>> Phil K8MBY
>> # 609
>>______________________________________________________________
>>Elecraft mailing list
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>>
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> ______________________________________________________________
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>

wayne burdick

Re: Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

Administrator

On Jan 7, 2010, at 2:12 PM, Samuel Strongin wrote:

> If sensitivity is less -140dbm on 2 meters it is DEAF!!!
> Sam kf4yox\

I already posted a correction to this. It's about -144 dBm. Matt
didn't have a signal generator that could go lower than -125.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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AD6XY

Re: Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

I can not see any reference to noise figure in the brochure. Just MDS and FM sensitivity with no bandwidth.

When I get mine I will measure the noise figure on a test set. It is likely to be under 2dB and I will use a low ENR head!

I suspect like the XV144, the K144XV will need some gain reduction for use with a masthead pre-amp. Signals at the antenna of -30 dBm are not unknown around here resulting in milliwatts at the mixer but the time you add in 20 dB of preamp plus another 20dB of conversion gain.

I am still worried about the diode switching, 2m specific PTT outputs and delays. I assume the usual 20mS delay option is there in the menu like all the other bands. This is not quite long enough when you are sequencing an amplifier and a pre-amp as there is more to switch than just the coaxial relays. When used as an IF for microwaves it will need even longer to allow a waveguide switch to operate but this will be mitigated by the split TX/RX outputs and the low power 2m interface. Where does this come out?

Mike

Giulio Pico - IW3HVB

Re: Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

IMHO an external sequencer is still the best way to have a foolproof
system. Running QRO with a mast mounted lna isn't a good idea if you
don't have one. 20 ms is not enough for sure, as most of the QRO coax
relays have a switching time of that amount or even more....
My sequence timing is around 250 ms, in four steps, including LNA, PA,
Driver, and RTX/XVTR.

73 de Giulio IW3HVB

AD6XY ha scritto:
> snip
>
> I am still worried about the diode switching, 2m specific PTT outputs and
> delays. I assume the usual 20mS delay option is there in the menu like all
> the other bands. This is not quite long enough when you are sequencing an
> amplifier and a pre-amp as there is more to switch than just the coaxial
> relays.
>

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David Pratt

Re: Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

In reply to this post by AD6XY

In a recent message, AD6XY <[hidden email]> wrote ...
>I can not see any reference to noise figure in the brochure. Just MDS and FM
>sensitivity with no bandwidth.

The manual gives this as "1dB nominal".

See
http://www.elecraft.com/manual/K144XV%20Manual%20A3.pdf

73
--
David G4DMP/G3KEP
Leeds, UK
------

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John Lemay

Re: Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

In reply to this post by Giulio Pico - IW3HVB

It looks like "TX Delay" is variable from 8 to 20mS. Perhaps this range
could be increased in the software ?

John G4ZTR

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Giulio Pico - IW3HVB
Sent: 08 January 2010 09:23
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

IMHO an external sequencer is still the best way to have a foolproof
system. Running QRO with a mast mounted lna isn't a good idea if you
don't have one. 20 ms is not enough for sure, as most of the QRO coax
relays have a switching time of that amount or even more....
My sequence timing is around 250 ms, in four steps, including LNA, PA,
Driver, and RTX/XVTR.

73 de Giulio IW3HVB

AD6XY ha scritto:
> snip
>
> I am still worried about the diode switching, 2m specific PTT outputs and
> delays. I assume the usual 20mS delay option is there in the menu like all
> the other bands. This is not quite long enough when you are sequencing an
> amplifier and a pre-amp as there is more to switch than just the coaxial
> relays.
>

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Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy

Re: Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

In reply to this post by David Pratt

David,

Wayne said: "It's actually more like -144 dBm (500-Hz bandwidth)." I assume
that this refers to a K144XV installed in a K3.

This equates to a noise figure of 3db.

To achieve a lower noise figure, the gain used in the K144XV would have to
be greater, which would further reduce the overall dynamic range (IMDDR3) of
the K3 assembly on 2m.

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD

David Pratt wrote on Friday, January 08, 2010 at 9:34 AM

> In a recent message, AD6XY <[hidden email]> wrote ...
>>I can not see any reference to noise figure in the brochure. Just MDS and
>>FM
>>sensitivity with no bandwidth.
>
> The manual gives this as "1dB nominal".
>
> See
> http://www.elecraft.com/manual/K144XV%20Manual%20A3.pdf
>
> 73
> --
> David G4DMP/G3KEP
> Leeds, UK

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

In reply to this post by John Lemay

The K3 has a TX INHibit input on the ACC connector that will inhibit RF
for any length of time you desire. Drive it with an output from your
sequencer that indicates "sequence completed". See the manual for details.

73,
Don W3FPR

John Lemay wrote:

> It looks like "TX Delay" is variable from 8 to 20mS. Perhaps this range
> could be increased in the software ?
>
> John G4ZTR
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Giulio Pico - IW3HVB
> Sent: 08 January 2010 09:23
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Elecraft[K-3] K144XV
>
> IMHO an external sequencer is still the best way to have a foolproof
> system. Running QRO with a mast mounted lna isn't a good idea if you
> don't have one. 20 ms is not enough for sure, as most of the QRO coax
> relays have a switching time of that amount or even more....
> My sequence timing is around 250 ms, in four steps, including LNA, PA,
> Driver, and RTX/XVTR.
>
> 73 de Giulio IW3HVB
>
> AD6XY ha scritto:
>
>> snip
>>
>> I am still worried about the diode switching, 2m specific PTT outputs and
>> delays. I assume the usual 20mS delay option is there in the menu like all
>> the other bands. This is not quite long enough when you are sequencing an
>> amplifier and a pre-amp as there is more to switch than just the coaxial
>> relays.
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> database 4752 (20100107) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
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> database 4752 (20100107) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
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>
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wayne burdick

Re: K144XV sensitivity

Administrator

In reply to this post by Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy

I just measured the MDS of a production K144XV: -145 dBm. This is
with the module installed in a K3. It'll probably vary slightly from
one unit to the next.

73,
Wayne

----
http://www.elecraft.com

On Jan 8, 2010, at 2:44 AM, "Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy" <[hidden email]
> wrote:

> David,
>
> Wayne said: "It's actually more like -144 dBm (500-Hz bandwidth)."
> I assume
> that this refers to a K144XV installed in a K3.
>
> This equates to a noise figure of 3db.
>
> To achieve a lower noise figure, the gain used in the K144XV would
> have to
> be greater, which would further reduce the overall dynamic range
> (IMDDR3) of
> the K3 assembly on 2m.
>
> 73,
> Geoff
> GM4ESD
>
>
> David Pratt wrote on Friday, January 08, 2010 at 9:34 AM
>
>> In a recent message, AD6XY <[hidden email]> wrote ...
>>> I can not see any reference to noise figure in the brochure. Just
>>> MDS and
>>> FM
>>> sensitivity with no bandwidth.
>>
>> The manual gives this as "1dB nominal".
>>
>> See
>> http://www.elecraft.com/manual/K144XV%20Manual%20A3.pdf
>>
>> 73
>> --
>> David G4DMP/G3KEP
>> Leeds, UK
>
>
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AD6XY

Re: Elecraft[K-3] K144XV

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

I know this - so does everyone. I have actually read the manual. However, there is only one TX inhibit and it is shared with the K3 on signal, which I happen to be using. Even if I was not using it the inhibit might easily be set to the default K3 ON and be ignored. Perhaps one of the DIGOUT lines could be used, but it would be better to have a longer delay and a seperate 2m PTT output.

Don Wilhelm-4 wrote

The K3 has a TX INHibit input on the ACC connector that will inhibit RF
for any length of time you desire. Drive it with an output from your
sequencer that indicates "sequence completed". See the manual for details.

73,
Don W3FPR

Jo