Experience with off brand Lithium AAs?

[Steven M. Knapp]

I've found a few "generic" brand Li AA's. I know the Energizer's are the
preferred battery for the KX1, but am curious if anyone has tried these
off-brands that seem to save a couple bucks?

For example I've had good luck with other batteryspace products:

http://batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1506

Thanks!
Steve
KA9QOA
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[k6dgw]

Steven M. Knapp wrote:
> I've found a few "generic" brand Li AA's. I know the Energizer's are the
> preferred battery for the KX1, but am curious if anyone has tried these
> off-brands that seem to save a couple bucks?


Only one data point:  For a trip thru the Canal a year ago, I wanted
something close to 12V to power my KX1 as K6DGW/MM.  On the suggestion
of a friend, I visited the local R/C Model shop and purchased a 3-cell
LiPoly battery pack that provided about 11.8 volts and the KX1 made
around 3 watts.  It is called a "Thunder Power."  It worked well, and
lasted the whole trip.  It is covered with warnings about fire, and I
liked the idea that it plugged into the 12V jack and was external to the
KX1, figuring I could unplug it and toss it overboard from our "balcony"
if it caught fire.

About 3 months later, I noticed that the battery was dead and the cells
had swelled, breaking the filament tape that held them together.  The
battery is now in a coffee can outside, and will go to the e-waste at
the dump the next time I take some.  It was fairly expensive and likely
will be my last experiment with LiPoly for awhile.

K6DGW/MM was a bit underwhelming, regardless of batteries, story at

www.foothill.net/~andreaj/Ham43.htm

73,

Fred K6DGW
Auburn CA CM98lw
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[Mike Morrow-3]

Fred wrote:

>K6DGW/MM was a bit underwhelming, regardless of batteries, story at
>
>www.foothill.net/~andreaj/Ham43.htm

Hi Fred,

Thanks for the very entertaining write-up at the URL you gave.  I can't recall the last time I read something as well-written on the web!  I'm going to keep an eye on you!

For all who haven't yet...go read about Fred's trip!

73,
Mike / KK5F
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[peter gerba]

I read Fred's piece on his travels and battery observations. I have a few to
add:

I earn my living with "photo stuff". The "stuff" consumes many AA batteries.
I buy batteries in great quantity. Lithium AA batteries are by far the best
for long-term camera use (not flash). I use Alkaline cells for equipment
that will be used "just for the day". The newer camera company manufactured
flash units, run much better with Ni-MH rechargeable; I've found the
Panasonic 2300 mAh to work reliably.

I have a few rules I follow that, I'll pass along: If the equipment will not
be used in the next day or two, remove the batteries. Before installing
batteries, inspect them; measure the voltage. Clean the contacts (I use
Scotch Bright) before installation. This will add to the battery life.
Always use fresh batteries; check the date code. Any that are out of date
are pass on to friends.  I have a few pieces of equipment that I use a lot.
They have Lithium batteries installed in them. I check the battery holders
of these units for any "problem batteries" frequently. If the equipment is
going to sit for a while , pull the holder. If they leak, you loose the
holder, not the equipment.

I have seen very expensive cameras rendered beyond repair by leaking
batteries. The new digital cameras require much more DC power than their
film-based brothers, save heavy motor drive use. The LCD display is
necessary if histograms are used for exposure. When used outdoors, the
displays need to be bright and batteries deplete quickly.

One last thought; I'm carefully wording this.. A close friend was manager
for all the "N"inc. brand professional camera repair shops west of Utah. He
told me that over 90% of cameras submitted for repair, due to battery
damage, had the Cu top brand Alkaline in the camera. I don't know the sales
figures for this brand and haven't seen the "paid for" repair stats, but I
don't think they own the market. So, there might be something to this
report.  I've seen others leak but, be careful when using the Cu brand. And
yes, I do use them.

Pete kn6bi

snip..........

Fred wrote:

>K6DGW/MM was a bit underwhelming, regardless of batteries, story at


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[Vic K2VCO]

peter gerba wrote:
> He
> told me that over 90% of cameras submitted for repair, due to battery
> damage, had the Cu top brand Alkaline in the camera. I don't know the sales
> figures for this brand and haven't seen the "paid for" repair stats, but I
> don't think they own the market. So, there might be something to this
> report.  I've seen others leak but, be careful when using the Cu brand. And
> yes, I do use them.

Funny.  I've had several leakage incidents, all with other brands of
Alkaline cells.  I decided to switch to this brand because I have never
had an incident with them!

I guess my statistically insignificant anecdotal evidence is...not
significant.  But I wish the battery manufacturers would try harder in
this area, given the amount of damage it can do.  I would definitely pay
a premium for leak-free batteries.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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[peter gerba]

Hi Vic;

Ya, stuff doesn't make any sense.. I've been told that there are but 3 or 4
actual (major) manufactures of consumer batteries in world and that Union
Carbide is the only large one here. All the "branding" is from the 3 or 4
makers. Do you have any idea if this is true?

The AA Photo E^2 Cells I use are Eveready, made in USA, the CR 123 "E" Li
are Konnoc made, who knows where, The Dura Cells are made here (and they do
own up and will pay for camera repair do to leakage). The Li for my Kodak
Digital are made in both Japan and China.. got me.

I use a 18 Ah Power-Sonic Lead Acid on the K2 and have some small L-A
batteries on the bench and they are all made in China.

I can't keep track any longer. I too will pay a premium for quality, if I
can find it.

The only rule that is golden with batteries is.. inspect carefully before
installing. If they are going to leak they usually will show signs and be
low in voltage. In a normal batch most batteries test well over the voltage
Spec. If they are under, I toss them. Lithium Ion will work well long past
their expiration date i.e., the voltage will be up. Just check the casing
for any slight bulge before using them. I'll put the out of date Li in a
flashlight not a camera.

pete

-----Original Message-----
From: Vic K2VCO [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 2:36 PM
To: peter gerba; Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Experience with off brand Lithium AAs?


peter gerba wrote:
> He
> told me that over 90% of cameras submitted for repair, due to battery
> damage, had the Cu top brand Alkaline in the camera. I don't know the
sales
> figures for this brand and haven't seen the "paid for" repair stats, but I
> don't think they own the market. So, there might be something to this
> report.  I've seen others leak but, be careful when using the Cu brand.
And
> yes, I do use them.

Funny.  I've had several leakage incidents, all with other brands of
Alkaline cells.  I decided to switch to this brand because I have never
had an incident with them!

I guess my statistically insignificant anecdotal evidence is...not
significant.  But I wish the battery manufacturers would try harder in
this area, given the amount of damage it can do.  I would definitely pay
a premium for leak-free batteries.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco

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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

Pete wrote:

I've been told that there are but 3 or 4 actual (major) manufactures of
consumer batteries in world and that Union Carbide is the only large one
here. All the "branding" is from the 3 or 4 makers. Do you have any idea if
this is true?

------------------------

Some years ago I wrote a documentary film about the manufacture of tires in
the USA. One of the interesting points I learned about was that brand-name
tires end up with all sorts of "off-brand" labels in service stations,
discount dealerships, etc. While all the tires came from the same assembly
line, the tires were *not* the same!

At the final testing stages of the tires they were graded according to the
quality of the finished product. Any tire safe to run on a vehicle was sold.
Only the tires meeting the highest standards got the manufacturer's 'brand'
name on them. All lesser quality tires received various other brands. Those
other buyers knew exactly what they were getting. Each one had certain
specifications the tires had to meet; they just weren't as high quality as
the "branded" tires. Poorer tires went for less, all the way down to those
just good enough to use at all. So, while all the tires came from the same
plant, they were definitely *not* equal.

I ran into the same thing in both automobile manufacturing and the
manufacture of gasoline in the USA. (Journalism can be very interesting!) In
that case it was a major American tire manufacturer who sold a variety of
automobile models in different price ranges. Almost anyone familiar with the
cars knew that a part from one model, such as a wheel bearing, would fit on
other models as well. But they weren't equal. The parts for the
higher-priced models were purchased with much tighter specifications and
quality standards than those for the lower priced models. That allowed parts
suppliers to sell more of their parts since not every part has to meet the
same high standards, so they could charge less overall. The auto
manufacturer could then sell the 'lesser' models for less because of lower
parts costs.

In almost every case the difference was in reliability and performance. For
example, a big issue with tires is what they called "conicity" - or the
"roundness" of the tire with weight on it - hence, how smoothly it rides.

Yes, all gasoline is indistinguishable when it flows from the refinery. But,
when it arrives at the distribution station, lots of chemicals are added to
it that give each "brand" it's unique properties and features.

I never did a report on battery manufacturing, but I'd be astonished if the
same thing wasn't true of them as well.

Do you always get more if you pay more? Absolutely not.

But that doesn't make the corollary true. You don't get the same quality
when you pay less. Even if you know the part came from the same plant.

Ron AC7AC

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[Joe-aa4nn]

I'm guessing, then, the 1GB PC2700 333MHz memory card
I purchased from an internet site $40 cheaper than same spec
memory card on the Dell site is inferior and could fail soon?
de Joe, aa4nn
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you always get more if you pay more? Absolutely not.
But that doesn't make the corollary true. You don't get the same quality
when you pay less. Even if you know the part came from the same plant.
Ron AC7AC

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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

Okay - in the third para of my last message I *meant* automobile mfgr, not
tire mfgr. Egad!

Ron AC7AC

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[peter gerba]

Hi Ron;

Interesting..

I knew the engineer who was Mgr. for the Pentium Group at Intel. he told me
that all the CPUs came off the same Fab. They were tested and graded for
performance. The better ones (fast) were sold at a premium. The poorer ones
were the Celeron line of CPU.

When I was in school I worked at the Hubline Bottling plant in Palo Alto. I
put Vodka bottles on a belt at the beginning of the filling process. I had
huge pallets of glass bottles around me. I would flip a case of bottles on
the belt at a time. When I came on duty.. The manager told me what size they
were filling at the time. This might be a quart, fifth, pint or 1/2 pint.
The bigger stuff was on another line. There were 3 brands: Smirnoff, Popoff
and something that began with an R and had a Russian Logo on the bottle. It
didn't matter what brand of bottle I placed on the belt, as long as the
bottle was the right size for the run.  I asked one of the suit and tie guys
about the difference in branding, noting that all the vodka that went in the
bottles was the same. The cost between the expensive stuff and the cheap
stuff was vast. He told me that the glass bottle on the Smirnoff product had
more expensive art work and that more money was spent marketing that product
so the price was higher. "It's all in the marketing son" as I recall.

pete

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 4:15 PM
To: 'Elecraft Reflector'
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Experience with off brand Lithium AAs?


Pete wrote:

I've been told that there are but 3 or 4 actual (major) manufactures of
consumer batteries in world and that Union Carbide is the only large one
here. All the "branding" is from the 3 or 4 makers. Do you have any idea if
this is true?

------------------------

Some years ago I wrote a documentary film about the manufacture of tires in
the USA. One of the interesting points I learned about was that brand-name
tires end up with all sorts of "off-brand" labels in service stations,
discount dealerships, etc. While all the tires came from the same assembly
line, the tires were *not* the same!

At the final testing stages of the tires they were graded according to the
quality of the finished product. Any tire safe to run on a vehicle was sold.
Only the tires meeting the highest standards got the manufacturer's 'brand'
name on them. All lesser quality tires received various other brands. Those
other buyers knew exactly what they were getting. Each one had certain
specifications the tires had to meet; they just weren't as high quality as
the "branded" tires. Poorer tires went for less, all the way down to those
just good enough to use at all. So, while all the tires came from the same
plant, they were definitely *not* equal.

I ran into the same thing in both automobile manufacturing and the
manufacture of gasoline in the USA. (Journalism can be very interesting!) In
that case it was a major American tire manufacturer who sold a variety of
automobile models in different price ranges. Almost anyone familiar with the
cars knew that a part from one model, such as a wheel bearing, would fit on
other models as well. But they weren't equal. The parts for the
higher-priced models were purchased with much tighter specifications and
quality standards than those for the lower priced models. That allowed parts
suppliers to sell more of their parts since not every part has to meet the
same high standards, so they could charge less overall. The auto
manufacturer could then sell the 'lesser' models for less because of lower
parts costs.

In almost every case the difference was in reliability and performance. For
example, a big issue with tires is what they called "conicity" - or the
"roundness" of the tire with weight on it - hence, how smoothly it rides.

Yes, all gasoline is indistinguishable when it flows from the refinery. But,
when it arrives at the distribution station, lots of chemicals are added to
it that give each "brand" it's unique properties and features.

I never did a report on battery manufacturing, but I'd be astonished if the
same thing wasn't true of them as well.

Do you always get more if you pay more? Absolutely not.

But that doesn't make the corollary true. You don't get the same quality
when you pay less. Even if you know the part came from the same plant.

Ron AC7AC

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[peter gerba]

It's Sunday, relax.

No one is grading this stuff..

p.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 4:28 PM
To: 'Elecraft Reflector'
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Experience with off brand Lithium AAs?


Okay - in the third para of my last message I *meant* automobile mfgr, not
tire mfgr. Egad!

Ron AC7AC

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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

Joe, AA4NN, wrote:

I'm guessing, then, the 1GB PC2700 333MHz memory card
I purchased from an internet site $40 cheaper than same spec memory card on
the Dell site is inferior and could fail soon? de Joe, aa4nn
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Do you always get more if you pay more? Absolutely not.
But that doesn't make the corollary true. You don't get the same quality
when you pay less. Even if you know the part came from the same plant. Ron
AC7AC

--------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------

It might. It might not. You left out the other sentence:

"Do you always get more if you pay more? Absolutely not."

My point was that the fact that many products come from the same
manufacturers does not mean they are equal.

What we often don't know is whether a cheaper product isn't just as good for
the intended purposes.

Years ago John Glenn, talking about having ridden a Mercury capsule aloft
for America's first orbital flight in space, observed that he was placing
his life in the hands of those who made millions of parts "..all supplied by
the lowest bidder..."

What he left out was that those parts were bid, tested and supplied by
manufacturers working to very complete and exacting specifications. That was
my work in the early 60s: "Component Engineering", writing component
specifications for programs including some of the stuff going into the
manned space program. The trick was to pin down every important criteria a
part had to meet: whether it was a nut, or a battery, or the turbine that
pumped fuel into a rocket motor.

The "lowest bidder" Glenn referred to was the one who could supply parts
meeting *every* specification at the lowest cost.

Unfortunately, when we're standing in the aisle at the discount store, we
don't have a complete set of specifications with us for our "intended use"
nor do the manufacturers offer any detailed specifications or warranties. A
long time ago one manufacturer (Ray-O-Vac??) offered to replace any
flashlight ruined by a leaking battery. I haven't seen anything like that in
years!

Still, I buy name brand batteries because I "feel" more confident using
them.

And that speaks to something else I learned a long time ago: I, and everyone
I've known, makes choices for emotional reasons. We choose what we do based
on how we feel about it. Only after doing that do we apply "logic" to
justify the choice!

Ron AC7AC


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[N2EY]

In a message dated 7/2/06 7:46:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:


> all the CPUs came off the same Fab. They were tested and graded for
> performance. The better ones (fast) were sold at a premium. The poorer ones
> were the Celeron line of CPU.
>

That's been the way of it since at least the first Pentiums, and probably
earlier. It makes perfect sense - here's why:

When a line first begins making processors, the % of processors that will
pass all the highspeed tests low, while the % that will pass the lower speed
tests is greater. So they are priced and spec'd so that the entire run is
(hopefully) bought up. If they priced 'em all the same, there would be a shortage of
highspeed processors and a surplus of lowspeed ones.

As the manufacturing process matures, the yield of highspeed processors
increases.

The really good news is that *all* of them are tested so thoroughly that the
possibility of a bad one getting through the process is very low.

--

One invention that changed the world is a companion to the microprocessor:
the microprocessor tester. Without the ability to automatically and decisively
test the processors, they would be too unreliable for practical use.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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[Nick Waterman]

> When a line first begins making processors, the % of processors that
> will pass all the highspeed tests low, while the % that will pass the
> lower speed tests is greater. So they are priced and spec'd so that
> the entire run is (hopefully) bought up. If they priced 'em all the
> same, there would be a shortage of highspeed processors and a surplus
> of lowspeed ones.

It's not just speed, either. Quite often large chunks of circuitry will
fail, so they'll be deliberately disabled ("fuses" on the chip are
deliberately blown, or even lasered off) and sold as a different model,
for example a 4Meg cache might have a microscopic speck of dust ruining
a few rows, so they disable that half of the cache and sell it as a 2Meg
cache version, or the really extreme case - you might have half a
dual-core CPU disabled and the other half sold as a single-core CPU.

It's much better than the alternative, where you used to get about 2
working chips off each wafer - frequently less than a 1% success ratio.

--
"Nosey" Nick Waterman, G7RZQ, K2 #5209.
use Std::Disclaimer;    [hidden email]
COFFEE.SYS missing Insert cup in cup holder and press any key
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[Karl Larsen]

Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> Joe, AA4NN, wrote:
>
> I'm guessing, then, the 1GB PC2700 333MHz memory card
> I purchased from an internet site $40 cheaper than same spec memory card on
> the Dell site is inferior and could fail soon? de Joe, aa4nn
>  
    No. In fact you may have determined the cost to Dell for stocking
the part and advertising. If you really got a 1GB PC2700 333MHz your set
up. I imagine your building yourself a computer. 1 Gig of ram with a 1
Gig swap directory will make a fast computer!

    I build my own computers from sources on the Internet. The 1 GB RAM
has to date been too expensive but looks like my next one may be like yours.

73 Karl

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> Do you always get more if you pay more? Absolutely not.
> But that doesn't make the corollary true. You don't get the same quality
> when you pay less. Even if you know the part came from the same plant. Ron
> AC7AC
>
> --------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------------
>
> It might. It might not. You left out the other sentence:
>
> "Do you always get more if you pay more? Absolutely not."
>
> My point was that the fact that many products come from the same
> manufacturers does not mean they are equal.
>
> What we often don't know is whether a cheaper product isn't just as good for
> the intended purposes.
>
> Years ago John Glenn, talking about having ridden a Mercury capsule aloft
> for America's first orbital flight in space, observed that he was placing
> his life in the hands of those who made millions of parts "..all supplied by
> the lowest bidder..."
>
> What he left out was that those parts were bid, tested and supplied by
> manufacturers working to very complete and exacting specifications. That was
> my work in the early 60s: "Component Engineering", writing component
> specifications for programs including some of the stuff going into the
> manned space program. The trick was to pin down every important criteria a
> part had to meet: whether it was a nut, or a battery, or the turbine that
> pumped fuel into a rocket motor.
>
> The "lowest bidder" Glenn referred to was the one who could supply parts
> meeting *every* specification at the lowest cost.
>
> Unfortunately, when we're standing in the aisle at the discount store, we
> don't have a complete set of specifications with us for our "intended use"
> nor do the manufacturers offer any detailed specifications or warranties. A
> long time ago one manufacturer (Ray-O-Vac??) offered to replace any
> flashlight ruined by a leaking battery. I haven't seen anything like that in
> years!
>
> Still, I buy name brand batteries because I "feel" more confident using
> them.
>
> And that speaks to something else I learned a long time ago: I, and everyone
> I've known, makes choices for emotional reasons. We choose what we do based
> on how we feel about it. Only after doing that do we apply "logic" to
> justify the choice!
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
>
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[Stuart Rohre]

I have had all three leading consumer brands of alkaline batteries leak, and
several of the industrial size we use at work.   The enemies of all alkaline
cells are heat and moisture, and time.

A number of all types of alkaline cells have reversed polarity in a string
of series cells, usually of AA size.

Keeping your portable dry cell powered gear in an insulated beer cooler, or
similar protection while in the hot car, or outdoors may prolong the battery
life.

Expensive things like antenna analyzers require one to proactively check the
cells from time to time, and take them out if not using the equipment for a
prolonged period.

Stuart
K5KVH


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[wayne burdick]

Looks like an inexpensive alternative for the KX1 and K1, Steve --
thanks. Haven't tried them myself.

73,

Wayne
N6KR


Steven M. Knapp wrote:

> http://batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1506

---

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