FCC rules part 18
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I just got back from the home center. While there I looked at the
instructions for a 42 watt (150 watt equivalent) helical compact fluorescent (the kind that screws in as a replacement for a regular bulb). The instructions said that it complies with fcc rules part 18. If it causes radio interference it should be moved or the radio should be moved. That there may be radiation in the 0.5-30MHz range. And that it should not be used in proximity to marine radio equipment. So my question is: is the sky falling, or is this a non-issue? 73, Lenny W2BVH _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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>From my viewpoint it is a total non-issue.
We've replaced every incandescent bulb in our home and RV with them. Two are within inches of my radios in my shack and there have been no issues as in "to" or "from" the radios. I thought they might respond to RF, but nope, they don't. 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP [hidden email] _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by w2bvh
Lenny,
I have more than 20 CF lamps ranging from 13w to 42w and from several different manufacturers in my house, and have never heard anything I could identify as noise from the devices, with one exception: one of the oldest lamps, a 13w model that was used to light the stairwell down to the basement, caused an AC hash-type noise on my Yaesu FT1000MP at about S2. It was not very loud, but enough to bother me while I was on a net on 7.2Mhz. This lamp was about 20 feet from the radio, and more than 50 feet from the antenna which is a B&W loop fed with coax. Otherwise, I've never had noise problems either from the CF lamps or the 40w flourescent tubes which light the basement. In particular, I have five 19w lamps that light my study area (where the K2 is used on a CW net every morning), and have absolutely no problem with them. Any noise created is below the normal 40/80m noise levels. So, though the potential is there, I think the manufacturers have done a pretty good job of designing tiny switching supplies that are reasonably quiet for these lamps. I'll be interested to see what anybody else has to say on the subject... 73, Van W1WCG ----- Original Message ----- From: "w2bvh" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 8:19 PM Subject: [Elecraft] FCC rules part 18 >I just got back from the home center. While there I looked at the >instructions for a 42 watt (150 watt equivalent) helical compact >fluorescent (the kind that screws in as a replacement for a regular bulb). > > The instructions said that it complies with fcc rules part 18. If it > causes radio interference it should be moved or the radio should be moved. > That there may be radiation in the 0.5-30MHz range. And that it should not > be used in proximity to marine radio equipment. > > So my question is: is the sky falling, or is this a non-issue? > > 73, > Lenny W2BVH > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
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CF bulbs are very efficient, but not without compromises. Home Depot
doesn't bother to tell you that they contain a decent amount of mercury. Somehow the manufacturers obtained an exemption from the usually strict rules. They're banned from many landfills, and in some communities require HazMat handling and disposal. (Don't let your kids or pets play with them.) This would seem to be mitigated by their long lifetime. But my 2-year old, who knocks over lamps once in awhile, doesn't discriminate -- he's broken just as many $6 CF bulbs as normal bulbs. Meanwhile, LED bulbs are on the ascent. They're incredibly expensive now, but this is bound to change. They may turn out to be the rugged, less toxic successor to ordinary bulbs for which mankind has searched for decades. They're also far more efficient than CF's, which is why this topic isn't OT -- they're QRP bulbs :) Wayne N6KR ---- http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
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I think the rise in LED efficiency is actually what's behind the new
political will to provide incentives for CF bulbs....they are about to be eclipsed. 73, Leigh/WA5tZNU? _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
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One hopes!
This is also why there's an LED reading lamp built into the KX1. Just thinking ahead :) Wayne On Apr 14, 2007, at 7:03 PM, Leigh L Klotz, Jr. wrote: > I think the rise in LED efficiency is actually what's behind the new > political will to provide incentives for CF bulbs....they are about to > be eclipsed. > 73, > Leigh/WA5tZNU? > > --- http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
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And you're sure it's not because no one makes a CF
lamp small enough to fit inside a KX1?? 8-) 73, Ken Alexander, VE3HLS --- wayne burdick <[hidden email]> wrote: > One hopes! > > This is also why there's an LED reading lamp built > into the KX1. Just > thinking ahead :) > > Wayne _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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> And you're sure it's not because no one makes a CF
> lamp small enough to fit inside a KX1?? 8-) I think everyone is missing the two essential points. 1) The KX1 is actually a transceiver built into a logbook night light, and 2) If Mercury is put into a CF lamp which then fails, it is no longer harmful to the environment. 73, Lyle KK7P (whose house is filled with CF lamps and also has a logbook night light with a built-in transceiver...) _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
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--- Lyle Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 1) The KX1 is actually a transceiver built into a > logbook night light, and Good point! That said; I think my old Heathkit HW-101 was actually a nuclear reactor built inside a ham transceiver, considering the heat it gave off. > 2) If Mercury is put into a CF lamp which then > fails, it is no longer > harmful to the environment. As long as the failure isn't the result of breakage of the glass envelope, and as long as the expired lamp doesn't end up in a landfill, where it will undoubtedly be broken. And to think they used to let us roll little blobs of mercury around in the palms of our hands in school to show us what it looked like. And I distincly remember mixing chopped up asbestos with water to use as a sort of modeling medium, which we made into small objects...ashtrays mostly, for our parents! Geesh! 73, Ken Alexander, VE3HLS _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
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In reply to this post by KK7P
I've been looking at LED bulbs also. I hate changing lightbulbs for reasons I don't fully understand and the long life is a real attraction. The problem today is not so much the cost. The initial cost is high, but over the life of the bulb, they actually cost less than incandescent bulbs not even including the cost of power. The bigger problem is that they just don't put out much light. For $40 or $50 you can buy a bulb that will last 50,000 hours or more vs. 750 hours for an incandescent and it consumes 8 watts. The light output is about 200 lumens which is about the same as a 25 watt incandescent. That is, not enough for most stuff.
They are getting better though. Someday soon maybe.
Bob
On 4/14/07, Lyle Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> And you're sure it's not because no one makes a CF |
RE: Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
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In reply to this post by Ken Alexander-2
I've managed to buy a number of those fluorescent bulbs that make a huge
amount of RF racket! Some are quiet, some aren't. Many years ago we switched to 40 watt incandescent bulbs in most places throughout our home, which we find plenty bright for 99% of our needs. I've put CF bulbs in places where it's very hard to change the bulb (top of stairwells, the high fixture on the porch, etc) but have avoided them elsewhere. Living here in N.W. Oregon in a town of <20K people who owns its own electric company, it's unusual for us to see an electric bill that tops $25/month even though my XYL and I both work at home and we run an electric hot water heater and A/C in the summer in addition to all of our lights and appliances. It was half that before the great California "power crunch" of a few years ago saw a lot of our power sent south. I don't complain; it helps keep the lights on in Aptos! Our electricity comes from spinning turbines at the Bonneville dam on the Columbia river a few miles northeast of us. Even with a fish ladder Bonneville's not terribly salmon-friendly (booo!) but no CO2 emissions (yea!). When I was a teenager I was messing about with a homebrew vacuum pump (wanted to make my own tubes!). I found a design that required a couple of pounds of mercury! Went to a local chemical lab and after explaining what I was doing they GAVE me a large crock full of mercury to use. It was marked "contaminated" but I never knew with what! The pump worked. Made lots of low pressure vessels to play around with on my homebrew 6-foot tall Tesla coil, but never made a "valve" with gain. Still, it was great fun, and I got an "A" in science class once again. But even back then (mid 1950's) I didn't handle the mercury with my bare hands. Already we had learned the lesson: "Don't touch it, don't taste it, don't smell it." Ron AC7AC _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Van W1WCG
Lenny, I have more than 20 CF lamps ranging from 13w to 42w and from several different manufacturers in my house, and have never heard anything I could identify as noise from the devices, with one exception: one of the oldest lamps, a 13w model that was used to light the stairwell down to the basement, caused an AC hash-type noise on my Yaesu FT1000MP at about S2. It was not very loud, but enough to bother me while I was on a net on 7.2Mhz. This lamp was about 20 feet from the radio, and more than 50 feet from the antenna which is a B&W loop fed with coax. Otherwise, I've never had noise problems either from the CF lamps or the 40w flourescent tubes which light the basement. In particular, I have five 19w lamps that light my study area (where the K2 is used on a CW net every morning), and have absolutely no problem with them. Any noise created is below the normal 40/80m noise levels. So, though the potential is there, I think the manufacturers have done a pretty good job of designing tiny switching supplies that are reasonably quiet for these lamps. I'll be interested to see what anybody else has to say on the subject... 73, Van W1WCG ---------------------------------------------------------------------- We have a couple (four, to be precise) CF bulbs in the house, two of which are in the two bedside reading lamps in our bedroom. Whenever the XYL or myself switches (or is it "switch"?) any of these lamps the cable TV box switches off the current program on the TV and shows the main menu. Never fails... Waiting for Wayne to figure out how to make a LED bedside lamp big enough to conceal a K2, so I can sneak it into the bedroom, and pretend the headphones are for the iPod... Cheers, Alan 8P9BM _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED] (warning: way OT)
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In reply to this post by Ron D'Eau Claire-2
I remember in freshman physics lab at Caltech in 1957 one of my fellow students said he had figured out a weapon for the perfect crime. He made a mold and cast a mercury knife with the help of some liquid nitrogen. He held in in an asbestos glove (another dangerous substance, of course) and went around the lab making threatening gestures (until it started to melt). Bob, N7XY _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Ron D'Eau Claire-2
Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> Living here in N.W. Oregon in a town of <20K people who owns its own > electric company, it's unusual for us to see an electric bill that tops > $25/month even though my XYL and I both work at home and we run an electric > hot water heater and A/C in the summer in addition to all of our lights and > appliances. It was half that before the great California "power crunch" of a > few years ago saw a lot of our power sent south. I don't complain; it helps > keep the lights on in Aptos! California [aka "The Dimly Lit State"] will forgive you this one time, Ron. However, be careful, our Governor can likely beat up your Governor. To the subject, I have a related question: "When did light bulbs become 'Industrial, Scientific, and Medical' equipment [i.e. 47CFR18]?" ISM equipment operates in ISM bands, one of which used to be 11 meters in the 0.5 - 30MHz range, and may still be for all I know. Another is occupied by your microwave oven ... and everyone else's too. They are confined to those bands, however ... I think. Don't light bulbs fall under 47CFR15? If they generate RF totally incidental to their operation, they would be incidental radiators [e.g. loose hardware on a power pole]. If they generate RF to facilitate their operation, but that operation does not involve radiation of the RF, they would be unintentional radiators [e.g. my computer, BPL]. If the generation and radiation of RF is essential to their operation, they are intentional radiators [e.g. my remote reading thermometer on 443.920]. Part 15 devices can legally radiate anywhere [as in 0.5 - 30 MHz], but only under some very strict constraints. Inquiring minds would like to know. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2007 CQP Oct 6-7 - www.cqp.org PS: Many years ago, my Elmer acquired a diathermy machine for parts. It comprised -- I'm not making this up -- 2-250TH's in a self-excited oscillator circuit. The frequency control was a variable capacitor, and the panel at the capacitor knob had a 27MHz frequency range marked on it, with a warning, "Do not operate outside this range." It had AC on the plates. _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
RE: Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED] (warning: wayOT)
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In reply to this post by Bob Nielsen
In the late 1950's was a great traveling road show put on by General
Electric that went to high schools showing off the wonders of science and engineering to encourage kids to follow a career in those fields. The whole school would spend an hour-long "assembly" in the auditorium watching the show. One of the demonstrations was to pour mercury into a hammer-shaped mold, pour liquid nitrogen over it, pick up the now-solid hammer with a heavily-gloved hand and drive some nails through some wood 2X4s with it, then lay it in a pan. A few minutes later the mercury could be poured back into the bottle. Ron AC7AC -----Original Message----- I remember in freshman physics lab at Caltech in 1957 one of my fellow students said he had figured out a weapon for the perfect crime. He made a mold and cast a mercury knife with the help of some liquid nitrogen. He held in in an asbestos glove (another dangerous substance, of course) and went around the lab making threatening gestures (until it started to melt). Bob, N7XY _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
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In reply to this post by Ken Alexander-2
Ken Alexander wrote:
> And to think they used to let us roll little blobs of > mercury around in the palms of our hands in school to > show us what it looked like. And I distincly remember > mixing chopped up asbestos with water to use as a sort > of modeling medium, which we made into small > objects...ashtrays mostly, for our parents! Geesh! > > 73, > > Ken Alexander, VE3HLS > > And we survived! No seat belts or kid's car seats back then, too And I never had to be told not to eat paint chips, either! -- 73 de Larry W2LJ QRP - When you care to use the very least! http://www.w2lj.qrpradio.com http://w2lj.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by w2bvh
We've used nothing but CF bulbs in our home for the past 7 years and I've never experienced RFI from any of them. The desk lamp in the shack is about a foot from the K2 and the IC-706 with nary a whisper of interference. Now the COMPAQ laptop is another story!
Doug W6JD -------------- Original message -------------- From: w2bvh <[hidden email]> > I just got back from the home center. While there I looked at the > instructions for a 42 watt (150 watt equivalent) helical compact > fluorescent (the kind that screws in as a replacement for a regular bulb). > > The instructions said that it complies with fcc rules part 18. If it > causes radio interference it should be moved or the radio should be > moved. That there may be radiation in the 0.5-30MHz range. And that it > should not be used in proximity to marine radio equipment. > > So my question is: is the sky falling, or is this a non-issue? > > 73, > Lenny W2BVH > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
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In reply to this post by Larry Makoski W2LJ
I have told the story many times of how we used to play with mercury in our
hands! Now they will shut down a whole school for something like that and bring in a hazmat team. Guess ignorance is bliss! 73, Mike N4JX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Makoski" <[hidden email]> To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED] > Ken Alexander wrote: >> And to think they used to let us roll little blobs of >> mercury around in the palms of our hands in school to >> show us what it looked like. And I distincly remember >> mixing chopped up asbestos with water to use as a sort >> of modeling medium, which we made into small >> objects...ashtrays mostly, for our parents! Geesh! >> >> 73, >> >> Ken Alexander, VE3HLS >> >> > > And we survived! No seat belts or kid's car seats back then, too And I > never had to be told not to eat paint chips, either! > > -- > 73 de Larry W2LJ > QRP - When you care to use the very least! > > http://www.w2lj.qrpradio.com > http://w2lj.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
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In reply to this post by Larry Makoski W2LJ
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007, Larry Makoski wrote:
> > And we survived! No seat belts or kid's car seats back then, too And I > never had to be told not to eat paint chips, either! 'Course not, your momma was prolly so unliberated that she wuz at home raisin' ya up...and did funny stuff like clean, so's ther wuzn't no chips///and if there were your dad most likely scraped and repainted. At 89 my Mom is always wondering how my brother and I could have survived without all the protections of the do-gooders. Thom www.baltimorehon.com/ Home of the Baltimore Lexicon www.tlchost.net/hosting/ Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
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In reply to this post by KK7P
Here is a link to a presentation by the CEO of Lumileds, maker of the
Luxeon LEDs you see in those flashlights for sale at hamfests. I attended a presentation of this talk and got to ask some questions about warm-white lighting, but apparently the video feed of the talk is not available. "LEDs for Solid State Lighting and Other Emerging Applications: Status, Trends, and Challenges" M. George Craford LumiLeds Lighting <http://www.ewh.ieee.org/r6/scv/eds/slides/20051213-George-Craford-Lumileds.pdf > The beginning is good, but slides 14-28 are skippable; after that the technical content picks up again. In particular, slide 31 shows the target efficiencies and costs needed to compete with CF, and later slides show the technical challenges and possible avenues for remedying them. This talk is now a couple of years old, so one hopes advances have been made. I see 100 lm/w LEDs for sale now, but not in the warm white (3300K) range, only "daylight" (5000K) and up, and single colors. The conclusion of this talk is that general-purpose LED lighting will happen, but the timing is hard to predict. It is possible that the push to legislate use of CF is an attempt by the CF industry to cement their use before LED lighting reaches this stage. 73, Leigh/WA5ZNU _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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