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FS: INRAD Filters for K3

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Eric Rosenberg

FS: INRAD Filters for K3

For sale:

INRAD 718-L 8 pole 500 Hz filter (2)

INRAD 718L 8 pole 1000Hz filter

$125 each

73, Eric W3DQ

Washington, DC

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Elecraft mailing list

power requirements for a K3S, KPA500, KAT500, P3?

Kind of a dumb question however here goes:

I got my K3S a short while ago and now I want to add the KPA500 and KAT500 to it however it just now occurred to me that I should check how much juice I need to power that thing!

I’m currently using an Alinco DM-330MV which I believe puts out 30A continuous however its probably plugged into one the house 15A lines.

So my questions are:

1) Will 15A house line supply enough juice for the K3S, KPA500, KAT500, and in the future a P3 Panadaper?

2) If not can I get away with replacing the breaker with a 20A breaker? 30A?

3) Will the Alinco be big enough or should I upgrade that as well?

Thanks guys,
Michael

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Jim Brown-10

Re: power requirements for a K3S, KPA500, KAT500, P3?

On 6/13/2018 8:02 PM, Michael Gillen via Elecraft wrote:
> Will 15A house line supply enough juice for the K3S, KPA500, KAT500, and in the future a P3 Panadaper?

Yes.

> 2) If not can I get away with replacing the breaker with a 20A breaker?

Only if all the wiring on that breaker is #12 or larger.

> 30A?

Only if all the wiring on that breaker is #10. These are electrical
safety code requirements, which carry the force of law.

> 3) Will the Alinco be big enough

Yes

> or should I upgrade that as well?

No.

73, Jim K9YC

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David Christ

Re: power requirements for a K3S, KPA500, KAT500, P3?

In reply to this post by Eric Rosenberg

DO NOT change the breaker

I am concerned about your so blithely talking about just changing the breaker. The breaker is there to protect the wire and is sized according to the wire. Do not increase the size of the breaker without verifying what the wire gauge is. Quite likely if the breaker is now 15 amp the wire is probably #14. This is common in residential situations. Increasing the breaker will create a fire hazard. Whether that circuit is sufficient depends on the length of the run as well as the size of the wire. Smaller wire and longer runs will have more voltage drop which is not good. Others on this reflector can give you more detail on this.

The Alinco should do OK for the K3S, KAT500, and P3. It doesn’t power anything in the KPA500.

David K0LUM

> On Jun 13, 2018, at 10:02 PM, Michael Gillen via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Kind of a dumb question however here goes:
>
> I got my K3S a short while ago and now I want to add the KPA500 and KAT500 to it however it just now occurred to me that I should check how much juice I need to power that thing!
>
> I’m currently using an Alinco DM-330MV which I believe puts out 30A continuous however its probably plugged into one the house 15A lines.
>
> So my questions are:
>
> 1) Will 15A house line supply enough juice for the K3S, KPA500, KAT500, and in the future a P3 Panadaper?
>
> 2) If not can I get away with replacing the breaker with a 20A breaker? 30A?
>
> 3) Will the Alinco be big enough or should I upgrade that as well?
>
>
> Thanks guys,
> Michael
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: power requirements for a K3S, KPA500, KAT500, P3?

I understand not to change any breakers. Roger that.

Thank you for the quick replies!

Michael
KK6RWK

> On Jun 13, 2018, at 8:25 PM, David Christ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> DO NOT change the breaker
>
>
> I am concerned about your so blithely talking about just changing the breaker. The breaker is there to protect the wire and is sized according to the wire. Do not increase the size of the breaker without verifying what the wire gauge is. Quite likely if the breaker is now 15 amp the wire is probably #14. This is common in residential situations. Increasing the breaker will create a fire hazard. Whether that circuit is sufficient depends on the length of the run as well as the size of the wire. Smaller wire and longer runs will have more voltage drop which is not good. Others on this reflector can give you more detail on this.
>
>
> The Alinco should do OK for the K3S, KAT500, and P3. It doesn’t power anything in the KPA500.
>
> David K0LUM
>
>> On Jun 13, 2018, at 10:02 PM, Michael Gillen via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Kind of a dumb question however here goes:
>>
>> I got my K3S a short while ago and now I want to add the KPA500 and KAT500 to it however it just now occurred to me that I should check how much juice I need to power that thing!
>>
>> I’m currently using an Alinco DM-330MV which I believe puts out 30A continuous however its probably plugged into one the house 15A lines.
>>
>> So my questions are:
>>
>> 1) Will 15A house line supply enough juice for the K3S, KPA500, KAT500, and in the future a P3 Panadaper?
>>
>> 2) If not can I get away with replacing the breaker with a 20A breaker? 30A?
>>
>> 3) Will the Alinco be big enough or should I upgrade that as well?
>>
>>
>> Thanks guys,
>> Michael
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
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>

Elecraft mailing list

Re: power requirements for a K3S, KPA500, KAT500, P3?

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Thanks for the thorough answer Jim!

Michael
KK6RWK

> On Jun 13, 2018, at 8:15 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 6/13/2018 8:02 PM, Michael Gillen via Elecraft wrote:
>> Will 15A house line supply enough juice for the K3S, KPA500, KAT500, and in the future a P3 Panadaper?
>
> Yes.
>
>> 2) If not can I get away with replacing the breaker with a 20A breaker?
>
> Only if all the wiring on that breaker is #12 or larger.
>
>> 30A?
>
> Only if all the wiring on that breaker is #10. These are electrical safety code requirements, which carry the force of law.
>
>> 3) Will the Alinco be big enough
>
> Yes
>
>> or should I upgrade that as well?
>
> No.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: power requirements for a K3S, KPA500, KAT500, P3?

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

AND, if there's any sort of electrical fire and it is discovered a 20 A breaker was installed with 14Ga wire, you fire insurance becomes instantly "non-functus".
That's Latin for "You're screwed".

Charlie k3ICH

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 11:16 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] power requirements for a K3S, KPA500, KAT500, P3?

On 6/13/2018 8:02 PM, Michael Gillen via Elecraft wrote:
> Will 15A house line supply enough juice for the K3S, KPA500, KAT500, and in the future a P3 Panadaper?

Yes.

> 2) If not can I get away with replacing the breaker with a 20A breaker?

Only if all the wiring on that breaker is #12 or larger.

> 30A?

Only if all the wiring on that breaker is #10. These are electrical safety code requirements, which carry the force of law.

> 3) Will the Alinco be big enough

Yes

> or should I upgrade that as well?

No.

73, Jim K9YC

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Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: Error in your comments Charlie

Holy Frijoles!!

I did NOT know that.

I DID know you can use 20A/120V * outlets on 15 Amp circuits, but I hadn't
heard about the breaker spec down-grade as well.

I recently changed out all my kitchen outlets to the 20A * type mainly just
to get a heavier duty outlet. The code called for two separate 20A/12ga
circuits in any kitchen which is what I used when I wired the house in 1974.
The socket we use for a typical coffee maker recently felt too warm after
brewing a pot, so after 40+ years, I felt it was time for a new socket
anyway, so why not go with the heavier ones. Of course, I may be fooling
myself as the size of the actual brass used in them MAY be the same as the
regular 15A outlets.

73, Charlie k3ICH

*In 20A/120V outlets, the neutral side (white wire terminal) can accept
either the normal 15A parallel blade plug, or the 20A version where the
neutral blade is perpendicular to the hot (black) blade.

Subject: Error in your comments Charlie

Charlie you should check the latest and greatest NEC code book. 20A on #14
is OK on certain types of #14

Yes I don't agree with it but that is the new book.

John k9uwa

>

>

>

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

AC Power for the Station

And in replacing receptacles, I found the original 1980 wiring in our
house was done by the "strip and push-in" connections.   Many I found
were loose, some showed signs of heating.   I took on the project to
replace all of the receptacles and switches in the house.   In doing so,
I did NOT use the push-in method, but turned a hook on the end of every
wire and put it around the screw in the correct direction.   While it
may or may not make a difference, I sleep better at night and no longer
notice near as much lamp flicker from time to time. And, I didn't buy
the "cheapies" for replacements. By the time the project was finished,
I had a 5 gallon bucket nearly full of switches and receptacles for the
trash.

For the ham station, I ran a dedicated 240 volt circuit with #10 wire
but used a 20A breaker in the panel.   Likewise a dedicated 120 volt
circuit, #10 wire and a 20A breaker.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 6/14/2018 7:27 AM, Charlie T wrote:

> Holy Frijoles!!
>
> I did NOT know that.
>
>
>
> I DID know you can use 20A/120V * outlets on 15 Amp circuits, but I hadn't
> heard about the breaker spec down-grade as well.
>
>
>
> I recently changed out all my kitchen outlets to the 20A * type mainly just
> to get a heavier duty outlet. The code called for two separate 20A/12ga
> circuits in any kitchen which is what I used when I wired the house in 1974.
> The socket we use for a typical coffee maker recently felt too warm after
> brewing a pot, so after 40+ years, I felt it was time for a new socket
> anyway, so why not go with the heavier ones. Of course, I may be fooling
> myself as the size of the actual brass used in them MAY be the same as the
> regular 15A outlets.
>
>
>
> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>
>
>
> *In 20A/120V outlets, the neutral side (white wire terminal) can accept
> either the normal 15A parallel blade plug, or the 20A version where the
> neutral blade is perpendicular to the hot (black) blade.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Subject: Error in your comments Charlie
>
>
>
> Charlie you should check the latest and greatest NEC code book. 20A on #14
> is OK on certain types of #14
>
>
>
> Yes I don't agree with it but that is the new book.
>
>
>
> John k9uwa
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

ke9uw

Re: AC Power for the Station

I always get the 20A outlets and switches (if needed for a motor driving circuit) for everything. I have been using the strip, push in, and tighten the screw to clamp down on the wire type. They seem very good as to contact.

Chuck KE9UW

________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Bob McGraw K4TAX [[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2018 8:07 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] AC Power for the Station

And in replacing receptacles, I found the original 1980 wiring in our
house was done by the "strip and push-in" connections. Many I found
were loose, some showed signs of heating. I took on the project to
replace all of the receptacles and switches in the house. In doing so,
I did NOT use the push-in method, but turned a hook on the end of every
wire and put it around the screw in the correct direction. While it
may or may not make a difference, I sleep better at night and no longer
notice near as much lamp flicker from time to time. And, I didn't buy
the "cheapies" for replacements. By the time the project was finished,
I had a 5 gallon bucket nearly full of switches and receptacles for the
trash.

For the ham station, I ran a dedicated 240 volt circuit with #10 wire
but used a 20A breaker in the panel. Likewise a dedicated 120 volt
circuit, #10 wire and a 20A breaker.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 6/14/2018 7:27 AM, Charlie T wrote:

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Chuck, KE9UW

Elecraft mailing list

Re: AC Power for the Station

Hey guys thank you for the responses however I did not intend for this to get derailed into a discussion about home wiring.

Michael
KK6RWK

> On Jun 14, 2018, at 6:12 AM, hawley, charles j jr <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I always get the 20A outlets and switches (if needed for a motor driving circuit) for everything. I have been using the strip, push in, and tighten the screw to clamp down on the wire type. They seem very good as to contact.
>
> Chuck KE9UW
>
> ________________________________________
> From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Bob McGraw K4TAX [[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2018 8:07 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] AC Power for the Station
>
> And in replacing receptacles, I found the original 1980 wiring in our
> house was done by the "strip and push-in" connections. Many I found
> were loose, some showed signs of heating. I took on the project to
> replace all of the receptacles and switches in the house. In doing so,
> I did NOT use the push-in method, but turned a hook on the end of every
> wire and put it around the screw in the correct direction. While it
> may or may not make a difference, I sleep better at night and no longer
> notice near as much lamp flicker from time to time. And, I didn't buy
> the "cheapies" for replacements. By the time the project was finished,
> I had a 5 gallon bucket nearly full of switches and receptacles for the
> trash.
>
> For the ham station, I ran a dedicated 240 volt circuit with #10 wire
> but used a 20A breaker in the panel. Likewise a dedicated 120 volt
> circuit, #10 wire and a 20A breaker.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
> On 6/14/2018 7:27 AM, Charlie T wrote:
>> Holy Frijoles!!
>>
>> I did NOT know that.
>>
>>
>>
>> I DID know you can use 20A/120V * outlets on 15 Amp circuits, but I hadn't
>> heard about the breaker spec down-grade as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> I recently changed out all my kitchen outlets to the 20A * type mainly just
>> to get a heavier duty outlet. The code called for two separate 20A/12ga
>> circuits in any kitchen which is what I used when I wired the house in 1974.
>> The socket we use for a typical coffee maker recently felt too warm after
>> brewing a pot, so after 40+ years, I felt it was time for a new socket
>> anyway, so why not go with the heavier ones. Of course, I may be fooling
>> myself as the size of the actual brass used in them MAY be the same as the
>> regular 15A outlets.
>>
>>
>>
>> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>>
>>
>>
>> *In 20A/120V outlets, the neutral side (white wire terminal) can accept
>> either the normal 15A parallel blade plug, or the 20A version where the
>> neutral blade is perpendicular to the hot (black) blade.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Subject: Error in your comments Charlie
>>
>>
>>
>> Charlie you should check the latest and greatest NEC code book. 20A on #14
>> is OK on certain types of #14
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes I don't agree with it but that is the new book.
>>
>>
>>
>> John k9uwa
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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>
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Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT-3

Re: AC Power for the Station

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Many of the newer receptacles have a similar hole, but the screw is
actually connected to an internal clamp.

These are very nearly as easy to use as the old push-in receptacles, but
far more secure since you're actually tightening the screw on the side
to secure the clamp.

73 -- Lynn

On 6/14/2018 6:07 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
> And in replacing receptacles, I found the original 1980 wiring in our
> house was done by the "strip and push-in" connections.
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Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT-3

Re: power requirements for a K3S, KPA500, KAT500, P3?

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

NO! The wire will get very hot, and you may burn down your house as a
result.

On 6/13/2018 8:02 PM, Michael Gillen via Elecraft wrote:
> 2) If not can I get away with replacing the breaker with a 20A breaker? 30A?
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Phil Kane-2

Re: AC Power for the Station

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

On 6/14/2018 6:07 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:

> For the ham station, I ran a dedicated 240 volt circuit with #10 wire
> but used a 20A breaker in the panel. Likewise a dedicated 120 volt
> circuit, #10 wire and a 20A breaker.

You can always /undersize/ the breaker - the code specifies *maximum*
current for the wire size. (In the past several months I've been doing
more electrical EE work than electronic EE work projects :) )

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane (P.E.)
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT-3

Re: AC Power for the Station

It depends on the inspector.

You're correct about code and safety. Bigger wire has less loss and
will stay cooler.

Inspectors may look at a job, see a 15 amp breaker and yellow NM, and
insist on the "correct size" breakers, and the "correct" 15/20A outlets.

Sadly, code is often what the local inspector thinks it is.

73 -- Lynn

On 6/14/2018 8:53 AM, Phil Kane wrote:
> You can always/undersize/ the breaker - the code specifies*maximum*
> current for the wire size. (In the past several months I've been doing
> more electrical EE work than electronic EE work projects:) )
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ANDY DURBIN

power requirements for a K3S, KPA500, KAT500, P3?

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

"Will 15A house line supply enough juice for the K3S, KPA500, KAT500, and in the future a P3 Panadaper?"

When I added my KPA500 to my TS-590S station I found the drop in mains voltage unacceptable. I made some changes in power distribution and now have a web power switch connected directly to the 120 V outlet. That web power switch feeds the KPA500 directly and feeds the other station equipment via breakout strips. One port of the web switch has a permanently installed "kill-a-watt" monitor.

The outlet I'm plugged into is just the other side of the house wall from the breaker panel. With this power distribution arrangement I run my KPA500 at 500 W output and PA voltage does not usually drop below 60 V.

In a spot check on 20 m (the band at which my KPA500 efficiency seems to be worst) I saw 119.0 V with KPA500 standby and 113.4 V with key down 500 W RF output. The situation is a bit worse when the heat pump is running but doesn't seem to cause any operational problems.

If I ever build a real station I'll include 240 V outlets.

73,
Andy k3wyc

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Jim Brown-10

Re: AC Power for the Station

In reply to this post by Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT-3

On 6/14/2018 8:47 AM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
> Many of the newer receptacles have a similar hole, but the screw is
> actually connected to an internal clamp.
>
> These are very nearly as easy to use as the old push-in receptacles,
> but far more secure since you're actually tightening the screw on the
> side to secure the clamp.

Some of these receptacles, including those that you're describing as
strip and push-in, are cheap JUNK. By all means, buy the better grade
stuff with a screw that tightens a plate to the conductors.

73, Jim K9YC

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Rick WA6NHC-2

Re: AC Power for the Station

As a retired career firefighter (line Captain), I say:

A POX on the push in connections. One should NEVER use them, they are
bound to fail sooner due to the mechanics involved (each un/plug flexes
the internals and the binding spring and eventually fails) and they WILL
cause issues (such as arcing, overheating, causing a fire). It was
worse in decades past, when aluminum wire was allowed in code, now
thankfully that is not (the bimetal reactions were an <impolite phrase>
and aluminum melts MUCH lower than copper, it was sheer stupid).

Use the screw downs, ALWAYS, always, ALWAYS. Plus, even if it costs
more, get something made in this country with a known quality brand.
Consider the extra couple bucks as cheap insurance. Quality matters.
Do not count on the UL Listing, it means exactly zero.

If you're having an electrician do the install, demand in writing, that
only the screw downs will be used AND quality plugs, not the contractor
special of the day.

Rick NHC

On 6/14/2018 10:48 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
>
> Some of these receptacles, including those that you're describing as
> strip and push-in, are cheap JUNK. By all means, buy the better grade
> stuff with a screw that tightens a plate to the conductors.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

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Jim Brown-10

Re: power requirements for a K3S, KPA500, KAT500, P3?

In reply to this post by ANDY DURBIN

On 6/14/2018 10:18 AM, ANDY DURBIN wrote:
> When I added my KPA500 to my TS-590S station I found the drop in mains voltage unacceptable.

I'd bet that was because of the IR drop in the long #14 wires feeding
the outlet (and maybe other stuff running off that circuit).

Yes, 240VAC is better, simply because it requires half the current, and
thus half the IR drop.

> With this power distribution arrangement I run my KPA500 at 500 W output and PA voltage does not usually drop below 60 V.

Remember that there's a three-position jumper that selects a transformer
tap inside the amp to adjust for line voltage. Access it by removing the
top cover, and RTFM to learn how to set it. Unplug from power, of
course. The KPA will go into protect mode if the HV is too high when NOT
transmitting (greater than about 82V) and too low when transmitting
(less than about 55V), so the key is to watch that voltage after
changing the jumper.

We run two K3/KPA500 for 7QP and CQP county expeditions from two Yamaha
2000i generators, which are providing 120V. We're running about 40 ft of
#10-3 from the generator to the outlet where the amps are plugged in,
and typically get 500W from the amp. Team leader W6GJB bought a
"strapping kit" to run the generators in parallel, and changed the
breaker on the one feeding the station to 30A. We do this for the
generators -- they're happier in parallel with keyed CW.

73, Jim K9YC

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Rose

Re: AC Power for the Station

In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC-2

Well said, Rick!

73!

Ken - K0PP

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018, 12:09 Rick WA6NHC <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As a retired career firefighter (line Captain), I say:
>
> A POX on the push in connections. One should NEVER use them, they are
> bound to fail sooner due to the mechanics involved (each un/plug flexes
> the internals and the binding spring and eventually fails) and they WILL
> cause issues (such as arcing, overheating, causing a fire). It was
> worse in decades past, when aluminum wire was allowed in code, now
> thankfully that is not (the bimetal reactions were an <impolite phrase>
> and aluminum melts MUCH lower than copper, it was sheer stupid).
>
> Use the screw downs, ALWAYS, always, ALWAYS. Plus, even if it costs
> more, get something made in this country with a known quality brand.
> Consider the extra couple bucks as cheap insurance. Quality matters.
> Do not count on the UL Listing, it means exactly zero.
>
> If you're having an electrician do the install, demand in writing, that
> only the screw downs will be used AND quality plugs, not the contractor
> special of the day.
>
> Rick NHC
>
>
> On 6/14/2018 10:48 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
> >
> > Some of these receptacles, including those that you're describing as
> > strip and push-in, are cheap JUNK. By all means, buy the better grade
> > stuff with a screw that tightens a plate to the conductors.
> >
> > 73, Jim K9YC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]