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FT8: "Magic radio"?

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Re: [KX3] FT8 Here's My Comparison of FT8 and Regular Modes

Oh my! I hope we aren't having a pop quiz on this tomorrow!

Wayne wrote:
Many of us have vanishingly little τ, and from earlier posts it’s clear that K is irrational, so I propose reordering the terms as a Taylor series.

Doug wrote:
My limited math abilities express then relationship as-
Dm(S10τ+Oτ)=K

Kd(Sτ+O10τ)=K

--Mark,
KE6BB

null
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Drew AF2Z

Re: FT8: "Magic radio"?

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

According to the KH1 people fully half of the FT8 callers are using the
wrong software or mode. I don't know if the guy I heard yesterday in the
CW portion of 40 meters was one of them but he was warbling away there
for a good long time; nice signal too-- s9+20db.

73,
Drew
AF2Z

On 07/03/18 17:13, Jim Brown wrote:
> On 7/3/2018 1:59 PM, ANDY DURBIN wrote:
>
> If I can work expeditions with FT8, I'll find better things to do with
> my time than sitting in a pileup for hours with guys tuning up or
> calling on top of the DX, which then brings out the childish "cops"
> cursing them and "yelling UP idiot."
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>

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jh3sif

Re: FT8: "Magic radio"?

In reply to this post by Richard-6

I restrict myself to work FT8 with 5W output for 20m to 10m bands where I can use 2 elements quad up about 20 meter.
Although QSO sometimes depends on other station’s receiving capability, 5W is good enough to work many DX stations around the world including long path west Africa and EU.
To work with DX stations in east-asia and OC, I sometime reduce output power to 1W or less.

Working DXs with very small power is really great fun.

73 de JH3SIF, Keith

> 2018/07/04 12:42、Richard <[hidden email]>のメール:
>
> Glad to see someone else enjoying the reality of FT8.
>
> For all those who are running huge power because they think that’s what it takes to work FT8 DX — ruining the enjoyment of others in the process — consider this.
>
> About a week ago, from my little central Florida station, running 75 watts into a hex beam up just 30 feet, I worked 25 Australian stations nearly in a row in the space of 90 minutes. All were over 9000 miles, 11 were over 10,000 miles, and 4 were over 11,000 to 12,000 miles. It was a BALL!
>
> It was amazing but not all that unusual. The fun is catching big ones on light tackle, not shooting them in a barrel with a 12-gauge.
>
> Cheers,
> Richard - W4KBX
>
>> But if you're willing to accept the tradeoff you can make QSO's that would otherwise be IMPOSSIBLE.
>>
>> I worked an HA the other night using FT8 with no repeats needed, and I didn't even see his signal on the waterfall. That's a Q that could not have been made otherwise. I like it!
>>
>> 73,
>> --Lenny W2BVH
>>
>>
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Wes Stewart-2

Re: FT8: "Magic radio"?

In reply to this post by Neil Zampella

Actually, I was in the process of learning about JT65 by doing some listening
tests when FT8 was added to the suite. So I took it up almost immediately after
it was introduced. I think I was up to about 80 "contacts" when someone on the
WSJT-X Yahoo group suggested that JTAlert was a great thing to have. I wasn't
quite sure why, but I installed anyway.

The setup in my shack has a laptop on a shelf above a larger monitor on the
operating desk. Normally, the log is on the laptop and everything else is below
using Windows split screen. I was trying to work a west African station and we
were part way through the QSO when it became clear I was getting QRMed each time
I (my computer) sent a report. After several sequences I saw a brief flash of a
window popping up but straddling both screens so I didn't quite understand what
it was. A few seconds later it happened again but this time I got the gist of
what it was. JTAlert was informing me that my QSO partner was/had been sending
me a text message informing me that he had my report and I should be sending
RRR. At that point I stopped transmitting and unloaded the software. Nuff said.

Wes N7WS

On 7/3/2018 6:36 PM, Neil Zampella wrote:

> .. and if you add JT-Alert to the mix, it can do the QRZ lookup for you ..
>
> Neil, KN3ILZ
>
>
> On 7/3/2018 5:32 PM, Carl Yaffey wrote:
>> On Jul 3, 2018, at 4:42 PM, Grant Youngman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> and don’t care to find out what the other guy’s name is or what he/she does
>>> when they aren’t punching at their own keyboard
>> As soon as I start an FT8 “iso”, I go to QRZ and look the person up.
>>
>>
>> Carl Yaffey K8NU
>> Recording studio.
>> [hidden email]
>> 614 268 6353, Columbus OH
>> http://www.carl-yaffey.com
>> http://www.grassahol.com
>> http://www.bluesswing.com
>>
>>
>
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Jim Sheldon

Re: FT8: "Magic radio"?

In reply to this post by Neil Zampella

I thought Eric CLOSED this thread YESTERDAY! Getting tired of deleting
references to FT-8.

------ Original Message ------
From: "Wes Stewart" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: 7/4/2018 8:46:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FT8: "Magic radio"?

>Actually, I was in the process of learning about JT65 by doing some
>listening tests when FT8 was added to the suite. So I took it up
>almost immediately after it was introduced. I think I was up to about
>80 "contacts" when someone on the WSJT-X Yahoo group suggested that
>JTAlert was a great thing to have. I wasn't quite sure why, but I
>installed anyway.
>
>The setup in my shack has a laptop on a shelf above a larger monitor on
>the operating desk. Normally, the log is on the laptop and everything
>else is below using Windows split screen. I was trying to work a west
>African station and we were part way through the QSO when it became
>clear I was getting QRMed each time I (my computer) sent a report.
>After several sequences I saw a brief flash of a window popping up but
>straddling both screens so I didn't quite understand what it was. A
>few seconds later it happened again but this time I got the gist of
>what it was. JTAlert was informing me that my QSO partner was/had been
>sending me a text message informing me that he had my report and I
>should be sending RRR. At that point I stopped transmitting and
>unloaded the software. Nuff said.
>
>Wes N7WS
>
>
>
> On 7/3/2018 6:36 PM, Neil Zampella wrote:
>>.. and if you add JT-Alert to the mix, it can do the QRZ lookup for
>>you ..
>>
>>Neil, KN3ILZ
>>
>>
>>On 7/3/2018 5:32 PM, Carl Yaffey wrote:
>>>On Jul 3, 2018, at 4:42 PM, Grant Youngman <[hidden email]>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>and don’t care to find out what the other guy’s name is or what
>>>>he/she does when they aren’t punching at their own keyboard
>>>As soon as I start an FT8 “iso”, I go to QRZ and look the person up.
>>>
>>>
>>>Carl Yaffey K8NU
>>>Recording studio.
>>>[hidden email]
>>>614 268 6353, Columbus OH
>>>http://www.carl-yaffey.com
>>>http://www.grassahol.com
>>>http://www.bluesswing.com
>>>
>>>
>>
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>
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: FT8: "Magic radio"?

In reply to this post by Wes Stewart-2

> JTAlert was informing me that my QSO partner was/had been sending
> me a text message informing me that he had my report and I should be
> sending RRR. At that point I stopped transmitting and unloaded the
> software.

Which is why I do not enable the text message capability in JT-Alert
or EME operators do not use Ping Jockey, etc. during a schedule.

That is *not* a failure of the mode - be it CW, JT65, JT9, FT8, PSK31,
RTTY or whatever.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2018-07-04 9:46 AM, Wes Stewart wrote:

> Actually, I was in the process of learning about JT65 by doing some
> listening tests when FT8 was added to the suite. So I took it up almost
> immediately after it was introduced. I think I was up to about 80
> "contacts" when someone on the WSJT-X Yahoo group suggested that JTAlert
> was a great thing to have. I wasn't quite sure why, but I installed
> anyway.
>
> The setup in my shack has a laptop on a shelf above a larger monitor on
> the operating desk. Normally, the log is on the laptop and everything
> else is below using Windows split screen. I was trying to work a west
> African station and we were part way through the QSO when it became
> clear I was getting QRMed each time I (my computer) sent a report.
> After several sequences I saw a brief flash of a window popping up but
> straddling both screens so I didn't quite understand what it was. A few
> seconds later it happened again but this time I got the gist of what it
> was. JTAlert was informing me that my QSO partner was/had been sending
> me a text message informing me that he had my report and I should be
> sending RRR. At that point I stopped transmitting and unloaded the
> software. Nuff said.
>
> Wes N7WS
>

Wes Stewart-2

Re: FT8: "Magic radio"?

No, it's not a failure of the mode, but a question of personal ethics. Other
ops have theirs, I have mine.

On 7/4/2018 7:13 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
> > JTAlert was informing me that my QSO partner was/had been sending
> > me a text message informing me that he had my report and I should be
> > sending RRR. At that point I stopped transmitting and unloaded the
> > software.
>
> Which is why I do not enable the text message capability in JT-Alert
> or EME operators do not use Ping Jockey, etc. during a schedule.
>
> That is *not* a failure of the mode - be it CW, JT65, JT9, FT8, PSK31,
> RTTY or whatever.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2018-07-04 9:46 AM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>> Actually, I was in the process of learning about JT65 by doing some listening
>> tests when FT8 was added to the suite. So I took it up almost immediately
>> after it was introduced. I think I was up to about 80 "contacts" when
>> someone on the WSJT-X Yahoo group suggested that JTAlert was a great thing to
>> have. I wasn't quite sure why, but I installed anyway.
>>
>> The setup in my shack has a laptop on a shelf above a larger monitor on the
>> operating desk. Normally, the log is on the laptop and everything else is
>> below using Windows split screen. I was trying to work a west African station
>> and we were part way through the QSO when it became clear I was getting QRMed
>> each time I (my computer) sent a report. After several sequences I saw a
>> brief flash of a window popping up but straddling both screens so I didn't
>> quite understand what it was. A few seconds later it happened again but this
>> time I got the gist of what it was. JTAlert was informing me that my QSO
>> partner was/had been sending me a text message informing me that he had my
>> report and I should be sending RRR. At that point I stopped transmitting and
>> unloaded the software. Nuff said.
>>
>> Wes N7WS
>>
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Russ Tobolic

Re: [KX3] FT8 Here's My Comparison of FT8 and Regular Modes

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

A Taylor series is quite appropriate since FT8 was invented by Joe Taylor ;-)
Russ, N3CO

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 10:28 PM, Wayne Burdick<[hidden email]> wrote: Yeah, sorry. Math joke....

Wayne

> On Jul 3, 2018, at 7:21 PM, Robert Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Just in case there are others like me ....who did not know what a Taylor Series is :
>
> In mathematics, a Taylor series is a representation of a function as an infinite sum of terms
> that are calculated from the values of the function's derivatives at a single point.
>
> Source - Wikipedia
>
> Cheers
> Rob
> VK5ZIK
>
> On 4 July 2018 at 11:03, Wayne Burdick [hidden email] [KX3] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Doug,
>
> I accept your gauntlet and will submit one final OT post despite my business partner’s attempt to shut it down.
>
> To wit:
>
> Many of us have vanishingly little τ, and from earlier posts it’s clear that K is irrational, so I propose reordering the terms as a Taylor series.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
> > On Jul 3, 2018, at 6:27 PM, Doug Millar <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I was thinking about the differences between using the digital modes on HF and Knob and Dial modes, and I came up with this comparison.
> >
> > Basically ft8 and digital modes take more work on the setup end and are easy to operate and "knob and dial" radios have little setup and the most time is spent directing the operation. Both take the same amount of effort but are inverse.
> > My limited math abilities express then relationship as-
> >
> > Dm(S10τ+Oτ)=K
> >
> > Kd(Sτ+O10τ)=K
> >
> > Where Dm= Digital Mode Kd=Knob and Dial radios S= Setup
> > O= Operating τ= Time K= Total effort
> >
> >
> > Revisions welcome----- Doug Millar K6JEY

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Barry

Re: [KX3] FT8 Here's My Comparison of FT8 and Regular Modes

First, I haven't read through this entire thread.

I've been a RTTY guy for a long time and am in the #1 spot on the RTTY DXCC
Honor Roll. That said, I don't get FT8 at all. Turn on your radio and
computer, come back an hour later and see what you worked - really?

I've been in an antenna limited condo for 9 years now. I'd rather not get
on the air than make QSOs (if that's still the correct term) with FT8.

Barry W2UP

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Wes Stewart-2

Re: FT8: "Magic radio"?

In reply to this post by Neil Zampella

I quoted the context.

On 7/3/2018 6:35 PM, Neil Zampella wrote:

> Wes,
>
> you're taking that out of context.   The structured messages allow for
> redundancy if some of the original message is missing. The decoder can take
> the sync symbols so that the system can understand what type of message it is,
> it still needs the callsign and signal report.
>
> More details can be found here:
> https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/k1jt/wsjtx-doc/wsjtx-main-1.9.1.html#PROTOCOLS
> and here https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/k1jt/FrankeTaylor_QEX_2016.pdf
> which covers JT65, but which forms some of the basis for the other JT/FT
> protocols.
>
> Neil, KN3ILZ
>
>
> On 7/3/2018 5:16 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>> In a message to this group back in February I wrote:
>>
>>    Quoting G4WJS: "For FT8 the net effect is that
>>    up to about 5 seconds of a message may be missing yet still
>>    be decoded. The amount missing can be either a truncation or
>>    parts of the message below the decoding threshold. The FT8
>>    message is structured with sync symbols at the start, middle
>>    and end so missing the start or end may have less impact
>>    than missing other parts since mostly sync symbols may be
>>    lost and they contain no message information."
>>
>> Hence, I dubbed the mode, "Imaginary" since it hears things that aren't there.
>>
>> Wes N7WS

Ken G Kopp

Re: [KX3] FT8 Here's My Comparison of FT8 and Regular Modes

In reply to this post by Barry

Well-said Barry.

IMO, it's a stretch to call FT8 legitimate.

But then I'm an old poop ... licensed since 1951 ... and CW all the time.

73!

Ken Kopp - K0PP

73!

On Wed, Jul 4, 2018, 13:00 Barry <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jim Brown-10

Re: [KX3] FT8 Here's My Comparison of FT8 and Regular Modes

In reply to this post by Barry

> First, I haven't read through this entire thread.
>
> I've been a RTTY guy for a long time and am in the #1 spot on the RTTY DXCC
> Honor Roll. That said, I don't get FT8 at all. Turn on your radio and
> computer, come back an hour later and see what you worked - really?

NOT really. An exaggeration by those who don't want to use the mode and
discredit those who do.

What do I know -- I'm one of the younger guys -- only licensed since
1955, Extra only since 1959, primarily worked CW all my life except for
contributing to our club score for contests. I do a lot of RTTY
contesting, but I have yet to meet anyone who can copy RTTY with their
two ears.

And radio is FAR more than pushing buttons, yelling in to a mic, or
doing CW. It also includes maximizing your station and understanding
propagation, antennas, transmission lines, noise suppression, and
operating skill. It is totally false that WSJT modes require no
operating skills. Knowing where to place your signal in the waterfall,
what to do when QRM causes problems, understanding that you can call a
station when he's having difficulty with another QSO (the equivalent of
"tail-ending" with other modes) and so on, are also a factor.

If you don't like a mode (or don't want to learn it) don't use it, but
don't disparage it by saying things about it that aren't correct.

73, Jim K9YC

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: [KX3] FT8 Here's My Comparison of FT8 and Regular Modes

Licensed in 1958, through the years and even today, I operate AFSK, PSK, JT-65, FT-8, CW, SSB, and AM. Each mode has its enjoyable culture and its upside and downside. That's ham radio. If one doesn't like it.....don't operate it, but don't chastise those that do.

"If one doesn't have something good to say......best say nothing."

Bob, K4TAX

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 4, 2018, at 2:36 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> First, I haven't read through this entire thread.
>>
>> I've been a RTTY guy for a long time and am in the #1 spot on the RTTY DXCC
>> Honor Roll. That said, I don't get FT8 at all. Turn on your radio and
>> computer, come back an hour later and see what you worked - really?
>
> NOT really. An exaggeration by those who don't want to use the mode and discredit those who do.
>
> What do I know -- I'm one of the younger guys -- only licensed since 1955, Extra only since 1959, primarily worked CW all my life except for contributing to our club score for contests. I do a lot of RTTY contesting, but I have yet to meet anyone who can copy RTTY with their two ears.
>
> And radio is FAR more than pushing buttons, yelling in to a mic, or doing CW. It also includes maximizing your station and understanding propagation, antennas, transmission lines, noise suppression, and operating skill. It is totally false that WSJT modes require no operating skills. Knowing where to place your signal in the waterfall, what to do when QRM causes problems, understanding that you can call a station when he's having difficulty with another QSO (the equivalent of "tail-ending" with other modes) and so on, are also a factor.
>
> If you don't like a mode (or don't want to learn it) don't use it, but don't disparage it by saying things about it that aren't correct.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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John_N1JM

Re: [KX3] FT8 Here's My Comparison of FT8 and Regular Modes

In reply to this post by Barry

Not my cup of tea either.

73, John N1JM (antenna limited)

Barry wrote

> First, I haven't read through this entire thread.
>
> I've been a RTTY guy for a long time and am in the #1 spot on the RTTY
> DXCC
> Honor Roll. That said, I don't get FT8 at all. Turn on your radio and
> computer, come back an hour later and see what you worked - really?
>
> I've been in an antenna limited condo for 9 years now. I'd rather not get
> on the air than make QSOs (if that's still the correct term) with FT8.
>
> Barry W2UP
>
>
>
> --
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Carl-N8VZ

Re: [KX3] FT8 Here's My Comparison of FT8 and Regular Modes

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Right on, Jim. You said it all. I don’t understand complaining about a mode you obviously have never used. As someone else said, FT8 has its positives and negatives. What I don’t like are the ops running a gallon or more. I consider QRO for the JT modes and PSK to be 100 Watts. I’ve only gone that high a few times to bag a difficult one. I usually use about 35 watts, which some purists will say is way too much. I’ve worked stations around the world who report they were using 1 watt or less. If properly used, these weak signal modes are truly amazing!

73,

Carl

Sent from my iPhone
===========================
Carl Jón Denbow, N8VZ
17 Coventry Lane
Athens, Ohio 45701-3718

[hidden email]
www.n8vz.com
EM89wh

IRLP 4533 Echolink 116070

PSK and JT65 Forever!
===========================

On Jul 4, 2018, at 3:36 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

Barry

Re: [KX3] FT8 Here's My Comparison of FT8 and Regular Modes

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Jim Brown-10 wrote
> I do a lot of RTTY contesting, but I have yet to meet anyone who can copy
> RTTY with their
> two ears.

I guess we never met, Jim. I can copy CQ, 599, and my callsign in Baudot
RTTY.

Many years ago, there was a Dxpedition I was calling. There was a selective
fade when he responded to the pileup and it didn't print. However, I knew
he came back to me from what I heard. When he came back with the TU, my
callsign printed to confirm it. Baudot RTTY is slow. I can copy CW at
almost twice its speed, but that isn't a requirement, as I know a few other
RTTY contesters who can also recognize their calls on RTTY.

Barry W2UP

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Re: [KX3] FT8 Here's My Comparison of FT8 and Regular Modes

In reply to this post by Russ Tobolic

Yes, but does it converge? If so, what is the asymtote? :-)

And, BTW, I don't see either Fun or Thrill factored in, and I consider them significant factors.

73,
Brandy, N1HO
On Wednesday, July 4, 2018, 2:41:02 PM EDT, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

A Taylor series is quite appropriate since FT8 was invented by Joe Taylor ;-)
Russ, N3CO

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Re: FT8: "Magic radio"?

In reply to this post by ANDY DURBIN

I've been using FT8 extensively, if not exclusively at times, on 6M.

I've operated 6M since the mid-80's from the Midwest (Missouri). Propagation
on 6M here is often a black hole for RF. Using FT8, there have been frequent
EU, SA and JA openings, whereas in prior years they have been few and far
between. It's not just propagation, it's the sensitivity FT8 brings to the
table that has allowed the band openings to be realized. It might truly be a
"Magic Radio" on the "Magic Band."

I still check the CW and phone segments, and it's often "crickets" there
while it's quite active on FT8. The mode has definitely enhanced my 6M
experience.

I concur with the comments that using FT8 to its full advantage requires
operator intervention and some degree of skill. It's not simply an
"appliance mode."

Lou, W0FK

-----
St. Louis, MO

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that
genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

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"The difference between stupidity and genius is that
genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

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