Farnsworth and keyer memory loading (K3 Wishlist)

[Ken_ke2n]

I do not want to bring up the pro's and con's of Farnsworth CW (discussed in many many posts in the elecraft forum, but not specifically in the K3 area).

I would just mention that this is a pretty standard technique on EME, to deal with libration fading.

I was quite frustated to have to send by hand, or use an external keyer with the K3, this weekend.

Has somebody raised this to a wish list item?

A related thing that would be nice (and may actually be required) for this to work, is to be able to load the CW messages from your PC into the K3 memories, using the K3 Utility program.

I would note that Winkeyer2 (K1EL) provides this feature using a parameter called FARNS in the setup menu. It forces the letters to go at different (faster) rate, while the letter spacing is set by the basic speed setting.

Ken

[AC7AC]

CONTENTS DELETED

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[Ken_ke2n]

<quote author="Ron D'Eau Claire">
Why wouldn't you just QSZ? That's the time-tested method of getting Morse
through during weak/fading sig cdx. <unquote>

Believe me, repetition of the call signs is done in the extreme in EME.

Each time, the listener tries to keep track of what he *thinks* he heard and eventually builds up a best guess at the call sign. I typically send my call 6 times twice over in an exchange.

One thing that is usually NOT done is sending slowly (QRS). This is because the fading punches holes in the middle of long characters. A "J" becomes "A" "T" for example.

So you send  around 15 WPM, trying to get a whole character through between fades. It becomes important to know if you have heard two characters, or one with a hole in the middle. Hence the use of exaggerated character spacing (a.k.a. Farnsworth).

Ken

[Julian, G4ILO]

Ken_ke2n wrote

So you send  around 15 WPM, trying to get a whole character through between fades. It becomes important to know if you have heard two characters, or one with a hole in the middle. Hence the use of exaggerated character spacing (a.k.a. Farnsworth).

That's an interesting justification and I've learned something from reading it. But I think the question has to be asked as to why what is a pretty specialized requirement needs to be built into the K3 rather than performed by an external box or computer software. It seems to me a bit like asking if the K3 could have a built-in WSPR beacon mode. :)

[Vic K2VCO]

Ken_ke2n wrote:

> I do not want to bring up the pro's and con's of Farnsworth CW (discussed in
> many many posts in the elecraft forum, but not specifically in the K3 area).
>
> I would just mention that this is a pretty standard technique on EME, to
> deal with libration fading.
>
> I was quite frustated to have to send by hand, or use an external keyer with
> the K3, this weekend.
>
> Has somebody raised this to a wish list item?

I would not like to see this added to the  K3. It's quite specialized,
and I'm sure there would have to be a way to adjust the spacing. Not
everything has to be built into the radio -- that's why there are
external keyers, etc.

> A related thing that would be nice (and may actually be required) for this
> to work, is to be able to load the CW messages from your PC into the K3
> memories, using the K3 Utility program.

Yes, it would be nice to load both CW and frequency memories from the
utility.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco

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[Ken_ke2n]

well - most built-in keyers have some way to adjust the sending -

for example a "weight" control seems to be the very least that you find on almost every transceiver that features a keyer

and

this is a Wish List, after all

;-)

----- Original Message -----

From: [hidden email]

To: [hidden email]

Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 23:23

Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Farnsworth and EME

Ken_ke2n wrote:

So you send  around 15 WPM, trying to get a whole character through between fades. It becomes important to know if you have heard two characters, or one with a hole in the middle. Hence the use of exaggerated character spacing (a.k.a. Farnsworth).

That's an interesting justification and I've learned something from reading it. But I think the question has to be asked as to why what is a pretty specialized requirement needs to be built into the K3 rather than performed by an external box or computer software. It seems to me a bit like asking if the K3 could have a built-in WSPR beacon mode. :)

---

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[gm3sek]

Vic Rosenthal wrote:

>Ken_ke2n wrote:
>> I do not want to bring up the pro's and con's of Farnsworth CW (discussed in
>> many many posts in the elecraft forum, but not specifically in the K3 area).
>>  I would just mention that this is a pretty standard technique on
>>EME, to
>> deal with libration fading.
>>  I was quite frustated to have to send by hand, or use an external
>>keyer with
>> the K3, this weekend.
>>  Has somebody raised this to a wish list item?
>
>I would not like to see this added to the  K3. It's quite specialized,
>and I'm sure there would have to be a way to adjust the spacing. Not
>everything has to be built into the radio -- that's why there are
>external keyers, etc.
>

It's a well known feature of Morse Code that certain patterns of letters
are more readable when sent with a small amount of extra spacing. Most
operators do this automatically (and often unconsciously) when keying by
hand, and in common with most other electronic keyers the K3 allows
this.

(Declaration of personal interest: one of those patterns is "SEK".)

I believe Ken's main point was that when code is stored in a K3 memory,
all the subtle articulation of hand sending is destroyed.  On playback,
any extended spacing is forced down to a standard letter space.

This is a known problem, but fortunately there is also a quick fix: a
simple prosign that inserts an extra half-letter-space when played back
from memory. Obviously it isn't perfect - which is why some keyers like
the Microkeyer allow much finer adjustment - but experience with keying
macros in N1MMlogger and Writelog shows that the simple
half-letter-space is a very good first step.



--

73 from Ian GM3SEK
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[Ken_ke2n]

>I believe Ken's main point was that when code is stored in a K3 memory,
>all the subtle articulation of hand sending is destroyed.  On playback,
>any extended spacing is forced down to a standard letter space.

>This is a known problem, but fortunately there is also a quick fix: a
>simple prosign that inserts an extra half-letter-space when played back
>from memory.

Well said, Ian.

This pro-sign is a proposal then? I do  not find it in the manual.
73
Ken

[Ken_ke2n]

quote
I would not like to see this added to the  K3. It's quite specialized,
unquote

Actually all the ARRL code practice tranmissions from 5-13 WPM use this method of keying,
(obviously not sending with a bank of K3's)

Some of us "grew up" on this, back in the day when your novice license expired in 1 year and you had to get from 5 WPM to 13 WPM in that time, or go QRT. If I have to QRS for someone, I like to send the same way.

One way for the K3 program to do this, would be to insert one parameter into the CW generation routine that reduced the number of 'clock ticks' for dots, dashes and intraletter spaces, while leaving the inter-letter and inter-word space alone.

Alternatively, you could extend the inter-letter and inter-word spaces and leave the dits/dahs alone.

Seems to me not all that hard, if the keying is generated by software.

There are more sophisticated adjustments some keyers allow, related to QSK. Those are the ones I consider to be 'quite sophisticated'.

 = = = =

just think of all the customization you can do to voice-

 8-band equalizer
 compression
 noise gate
 ESSB
 peak-to-average adjustment
 filter selection

CW is the poor cousin, by comparison.

Ken

[David Cutter]

> I used to do this with SD = SuperDuper from EI5DI
David
G3UNA

>
> >I believe Ken's main point was that when code is stored in a K3 memory,
> >all the subtle articulation of hand sending is destroyed.  On playback,
> >any extended spacing is forced down to a standard letter space.
>
> >This is a known problem, but fortunately there is also a quick fix: a
> >simple prosign that inserts an extra half-letter-space when played back
> >from memory.
>
> Well said, Ian.
>
> This pro-sign is a proposal then? I do  not find it in the manual.
> 73
> Ken
>

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[David Cutter]

I used to do this with SuperDuper logging program from EI5DI and it reduced repeats a lot in contests.
David
G3UNA

>
> From: Ken_ke2n <[hidden email]>
> Date: 2008/11/17 Mon AM 09:11:37 GMT
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Farnsworth and keyer memory loading (K3 Wishlist)
>
>
> >I believe Ken's main point was that when code is stored in a K3 memory,
> >all the subtle articulation of hand sending is destroyed.  On playback,
> >any extended spacing is forced down to a standard letter space.
>
> >This is a known problem, but fortunately there is also a quick fix: a
> >simple prosign that inserts an extra half-letter-space when played back
> >from memory.
>
> Well said, Ian.
>
> This pro-sign is a proposal then? I do  not find it in the manual.
> 73
> Ken
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Farnsworth-and-keyer-memory-loading-%28K3-Wishlist%29-tp1507132p1508617.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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[gm3sek]

Ken_ke2n wrote:

>
>>I believe Ken's main point was that when code is stored in a K3 memory,
>>all the subtle articulation of hand sending is destroyed.  On playback,
>>any extended spacing is forced down to a standard letter space.
>
>>This is a known problem, but fortunately there is also a quick fix: a
>>simple prosign that inserts an extra half-letter-space when played back
>>from memory.
>
>Well said, Ian.
>
>This pro-sign is a proposal then? I do  not find it in the manual.

Very well, let's call it a formal request: a control prosign that can be
used when recording CW into K3 memories, which on playback will insert
an additional half-letter-space.

SP (run together) seems to be vacant.



--

73 from Ian GM3SEK
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