Filters for weak signal 160 meter CW and crowded contest bands
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Filters for weak signal 160 meter CW and crowded contest bands
 
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I've seen lots of discussion about K3 filters so here's my question.
I've got the 400 hz 8 pole filter and it works well. During the ARRL 160 contest I had trouble "running" due to someone else doing so about 300 hz up the band. I was thinking about acquiring either the 250 8 pole or the 200 5 pole. Any thoughts? I have not seen any data on the 200 hz filter, but the 250 seems more like a 370 hz filter if you look at the filter plot. Which do I want? Dana, K6NR _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Probably the 200 Hz. You're correct about the "250" which is only ~65 Hz narrower than the 400 (which is actually ~435 Hz if my memory is correct). My 200 measures ~205 Hz at the 6 dB points so you would notice more of a difference with it even though it has wider shoulders (i.e. 5-pole instead of 8-pole). I have both a 500 and 200 and use both on 160. Normally I prefer the 500 but there are times when the 200 is very nice to have...such as in a large nearly simplex DX pileup with lots of strong stations calling. I would normally not want to use the 200 in a contest, because I would miss the guys calling off-frequency, but it's nice to have it available when necessary. Someone else asked about the filter plots on the Elecraft and Inrad websites. I believe all of these were made by George W2VJN before he sold Inrad to N5KO and AG9A. I hope Elecraft or Inrad might ask George to graph the missing filters (all 5-pole and some 8-pole) eventually (including the yet to be introduced variable bandwidth filters). If George cannot do it perhaps Jack K8ZOA could do this. 73, Bill W4ZV |
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Bill W4ZV wrote:
> > Someone else asked about the filter plots on the Elecraft and Inrad > websites. I believe all of these were made by George W2VJN before > he sold > Inrad to N5KO and AG9A. I hope Elecraft or Inrad might ask George > to graph > the missing filters (all 5-pole and some 8-pole) eventually > (including the > yet to be introduced variable bandwidth filters). If George cannot > do it > perhaps Jack K8ZOA could do this. > > 73, Bill W4ZV > > I asked the question about the filter plots. I have written a > program, with Jack's considerable help, that will allow a K3 to self- > characterize it's filters. As each filter is characterized the data > set can be saved by the user and a simple plot drawn by the program. > All the user needs is a stable, clean signal source to inject into > the K3 antenna port. An advantage of this approach over the INRAD/ > Elecraft plots is they are generated while the crystal filter is > installed in the user's K3, not in a test jig in a laboratory. The program is called K3 Filter Tools and can be downloaded free from: http://mysite.verizon.net/ks7d Mike, KS7D _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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I recommend Mike's program to anyone interested in their K3's filter
response. It's relatively simple to use and will give you a good view of the first 60 to 70 dB of the filter response. For a variety of reasons, measuring the K3's filter skirt selectivity at frequencies where the filter's attenuation exceeds 60 or 70 dB using simple equipment and procedures is difficult. Jack K8ZOA Verizon Mail wrote: > Bill W4ZV wrote: > >> Someone else asked about the filter plots on the Elecraft and Inrad >> websites. I believe all of these were made by George W2VJN before >> he sold >> Inrad to N5KO and AG9A. I hope Elecraft or Inrad might ask George >> to graph >> the missing filters (all 5-pole and some 8-pole) eventually >> (including the >> yet to be introduced variable bandwidth filters). If George cannot >> do it >> perhaps Jack K8ZOA could do this. >> >> 73, Bill W4ZV >> >> I asked the question about the filter plots. I have written a >> program, with Jack's considerable help, that will allow a K3 to self- >> characterize it's filters. As each filter is characterized the data >> set can be saved by the user and a simple plot drawn by the program. >> All the user needs is a stable, clean signal source to inject into >> the K3 antenna port. An advantage of this approach over the INRAD/ >> Elecraft plots is they are generated while the crystal filter is >> installed in the user's K3, not in a test jig in a laboratory. >> > > The program is called K3 Filter Tools and can be downloaded free from: http://mysite.verizon.net/ks7d > > Mike, KS7D > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Dana Roode
I was thinking about acquiring either the 250 8 pole or the 200 5 pole. Any thoughts? Dana, K6NR Hello Dana. At my noisy QTH in Fairbanks, I often use the 200 Hz filter at a BW of 100 to 200 on 160M. I have both the 500 and 200 filters, but to get the QRN down, and maybe improve the S/N, the narrow filter and setting is best on what is often weak DX for me. On my small city lot I use a rotatable receiving loop (Wellbrook), which can hear better than my Inv-L most times. Also play with the AGC Slope (~3), Threshold (~6-8), CW pitch (~450-600 Hz), and filter insertion loss compensation (~4-6 db) to peak the weak sigs. I put the AGC settings on the PF 1-2 buttons for ready access as changes are often required depending upon the condx. 73 Gary NL7Y _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:33:52 -0800 (PST), Gary NL7Y wrote:
> > >Also play with the AGC Slope (~3), Threshold (~6-8), CW pitch (~450-600 Hz), >and filter insertion loss compensation (~4-6 db) to peak the weak sigs. I >put the AGC settings on the PF 1-2 buttons for ready access as changes are >often required depending upon the condx. > >73 Gary NL7Y >_______________________________________________ I wish I could vary the pitch of a signal directly while listening to it, instead of having the sidetone cover it up. 73, Drew AF2Z _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: Filters for weak signal 160 meter CW and crowded contest bands
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> -----Original Message----- > > I wish I could vary the pitch of a signal directly while > listening to it, instead of having the sidetone cover it up. > > 73, > Drew > AF2Z > Me also. I use different pitches depending on what I'm doing. Higher for casual QSOs, lower for contesting & pileups. It helps spread out closely packed stations. Ditto the sidetone volume. I require several volume settings depending on which speaker or headphones I'm using and by the time I realize that I have it wrong I'm in the middle of a QSO and can't change it without drowning out either myself or the other station. 73 & thanks for listening Carl WS7L K3 #486 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by drewko
I wish I could vary the pitch of a signal directly while listening to it, instead of having the sidetone cover it up. 73, Drew AF2Z Excellent suggestion Drew. My IC-765 has that feature (as do many rigs), and I recently forgot how much I depended upon it until I sent my K3 into Elecraft for upgrades, and started using the 765 again. It does fine tune in real time for the best CW audio/sig strength on the 765, much better than the K3's implementation for me. I wonder if the Elecraft folks can offer that feature in the future? 73 Gary NL7Y _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Jack Smith-6
Note: when using Mike's software, AUTOINF must be set to NOR. Anyone who normally has AUTOINF=1 (e.g. for a SteppIR antenna) will need to manually reset it before using the software in order to get usable data. 73, ... Joe, W4TV > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jack Smith > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 2:09 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter Plots > > > I recommend Mike's program to anyone interested in their K3's filter > response. It's relatively simple to use and will give you a > good view of > the first 60 to 70 dB of the filter response. > > For a variety of reasons, measuring the K3's filter skirt > selectivity at > frequencies where the filter's attenuation exceeds 60 or 70 dB using > simple equipment and procedures is difficult. > > Jack K8ZOA > > Verizon Mail wrote: > > Bill W4ZV wrote: > > > >> Someone else asked about the filter plots on the Elecraft > and Inrad > >> websites. I believe all of these were made by George W2VJN before > >> he sold > >> Inrad to N5KO and AG9A. I hope Elecraft or Inrad might > ask George > >> to graph > >> the missing filters (all 5-pole and some 8-pole) eventually > >> (including the > >> yet to be introduced variable bandwidth filters). If > George cannot > >> do it > >> perhaps Jack K8ZOA could do this. > >> > >> 73, Bill W4ZV > >> > >> I asked the question about the filter plots. I have written a > >> program, with Jack's considerable help, that will allow a > K3 to self- > >> characterize it's filters. As each filter is characterized > the data > >> set can be saved by the user and a simple plot drawn by > the program. > >> All the user needs is a stable, clean signal source to > inject into > >> the K3 antenna port. An advantage of this approach over the INRAD/ > >> Elecraft plots is they are generated while the crystal filter is > >> installed in the user's K3, not in a test jig in a laboratory. > >> > > > > The program is called K3 Filter Tools and can be downloaded > free from: http://mysite.verizon.net/ks7d > > > > Mike, KS7D > > _______________________________________________ > > Elecraft mailing list > > Post to: [hidden email] > > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>> > The program is called K3 Filter Tools and can be downloaded >> free from: http://mysite.verizon.net/ks7d >> > Mike, KS7D > >Note: when using Mike's software, AUTOINF must be set to NOR. >Anyone who normally has AUTOINF=1 (e.g. for a SteppIR antenna) >will need to manually reset it before using the software in >order to get usable data. > Mike's program is an excellent addition to the K3 toolkit... but as Joe points out, be aware that it takes control of the K3 in ways we might not expect. If the K3 is configured for PTT or CW keying using the CTS and/or DTR lines, the Filter Tools program may cause the rig to transmit. (No harm done, as the signal generator was connected to the RX ANT port, but definitely an unexpected event.) Before using *any* new program that takes control of the rig, it is also a good idea to use Elecraft's K3 Utilities program to grab a config file, and then reload the original rig configuration afterwards. -- 73 from Ian GM3SEK http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Ian,
I fixed the problems related to PTT and the program not releasing the serial port in some cases. You can download the updated program from my web site: http://mysite.verizon.net/ks7d/ I am working on the Configauto problem reported by Joe and improved user help. I hope to have another update posted by tonight. Thank you to everyone who has reported problems to me. Mike, ks7d On Jan 18, 2009, at 5:19 AM, Ian White GM3SEK <[hidden email]> wrote: > Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > >>> > The program is called K3 Filter Tools and can be downloaded >>> free from: http://mysite.verizon.net/ks7d >>> > Mike, KS7D > >> >> Note: when using Mike's software, AUTOINF must be set to NOR. >> Anyone who normally has AUTOINF=1 (e.g. for a SteppIR antenna) >> will need to manually reset it before using the software in >> order to get usable data. >> > Mike's program is an excellent addition to the K3 toolkit... but as > Joe points out, be aware that it takes control of the K3 in ways we > might not expect. > > If the K3 is configured for PTT or CW keying using the CTS and/or > DTR lines, the Filter Tools program may cause the rig to transmit. > (No harm done, as the signal generator was connected to the RX ANT > port, but definitely an unexpected event.) > > Before using *any* new program that takes control of the rig, it is > also a good idea to use Elecraft's K3 Utilities program to grab a > config file, and then reload the original rig configuration > afterwards. > > > > -- > > 73 from Ian GM3SEK > http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Verizon Mail wrote:
> >I fixed the problems related to PTT and the program not releasing the >serial port in some cases. You can download the updated program from >my web site: http://mysite.verizon.net/ks7d/ > >I am working on the Configauto problem reported by Joe and improved >user help. I hope to have another update posted by tonight. > >Thank you to everyone who has reported problems to me. > It's we who should thank YOU, Mike! -- 73 from Ian GM3SEK http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by gm3sek
After I used it, my K3 had been changed. Before, it was a 100 W unit. After, only 12. I had to restore an earlier K3 configuration file to restore it. There might have been other K3 changes also that I corrected by this config restore without even knowing they had occurred, so other users should watch for them. Also, I had to reboot the computer to get the serial port back - K3FilterTools apparently did not release it when it exited. OTOH, I recall having some weirdness occur while trying to get the filter scan and might have upset the program and caused these problems myself as I tried to recover from the weirdness - don't remember details of it. Thankfully, my K3 did not transmit into the signal generator - probably would have ruined the little Elecraft XG-2 and w8diz 10 MHz oscillator I was using.. I think this will be a really useful program when we understand how to safely use it. I read all the help files that came with the program, but have not read Jack Smith's writeup on the method yet. Jerry W4UK At 10:19 1/18/2009, Ian White GM3SEK wrote: >Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > > >> > The program is called K3 Filter Tools and can be downloaded > >> free from: http://mysite.verizon.net/ks7d > >> > Mike, KS7D > > > > >Note: when using Mike's software, AUTOINF must be set to NOR. > >Anyone who normally has AUTOINF=1 (e.g. for a SteppIR antenna) > >will need to manually reset it before using the software in > >order to get usable data. > > >Mike's program is an excellent addition to the K3 toolkit... but as Joe >points out, be aware that it takes control of the K3 in ways we might >not expect. > >If the K3 is configured for PTT or CW keying using the CTS and/or DTR >lines, the Filter Tools program may cause the rig to transmit. (No harm >done, as the signal generator was connected to the RX ANT port, but >definitely an unexpected event.) > >Before using *any* new program that takes control of the rig, it is also >a good idea to use Elecraft's K3 Utilities program to grab a config >file, and then reload the original rig configuration afterwards. > > > >-- > >73 from Ian GM3SEK >http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek >_______________________________________________ >Elecraft mailing list >Post to: [hidden email] >You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by gm3sek
This is very interesting and useful. It looks a little bit like a Borland app but I expect it is not.
I am currently sweeping my 2.7kHz filter but I expect the limit will be the phase noise of the synth. I may try using my 10MHz reference instead. I found a gain of 100 was about right for my K3 on 28MHz with -30 dBm input. While the program is excellent there are one or two issues I have noticed. The first time I tried the linearity check I had the volume up - loud mistake! It takes a very long time to sweep a filter this way, it may be better to implement some form of variable sweep based say on the difference between the last value. One tends to want detail in the passband but not so much in the stopband. One thing we are missing is phase response (AM/PM), I would be interested to know if there is any way to measure this with a sound card. There are a few rough edges, it is easy to crash if you enter nothing into a checkbox that is not explicitly checked. The stop button does not always get enough attention paid to it. (Application->ProcessMessages ?) Mike My 400Hz filter response +-10kHz - Not very good! Phase noise due to the grid. I have edited this because I found a much better synth I had forgotten I had made. http://www.sdr-kits.net/ It is at least 20 dB better than my 10MHz reference box, which uses a cheap PC oscillator locked to GPS. Downside is that it drifts. The limit now should be the phase noise of the K3. Close in: Frequency dBV Frequency dBV 9999 -48.7 9999.05 -47.7 9999.1 -46.8 9999.15 -46.1 9999.2 -45.3 9999.25 -44.6 9999.3 -43.2 9999.35 -42.1 9999.4 -41.0 9999.45 -39.9 9999.5 -37.9 9999.55 -37.2 9999.6 -33.1 9999.65 -16.2 9999.7 - 5.9 9999.75 - 2.7 9999.8 - 1.3 9999.85 - 0.5 9999.9 - 0.1 9999.95 0.0 10000 0.0 10000.05 - 0.6 10000.1 - 2.2 10000.15 - 7.3 10000.2 -21.9 10000.25 -33.6 10000.3 -36.7 10000.35 -38.3 10000.4 -40.2 10000.45 -41.6 10000.5 -41.9 10000.55 -43.6 10000.6 -44.2 10000.65 -45.0 10000.7 -46.5 10000.75 -47.4 10000.8 -48.3 10000.85 -49.1 10000.9 -49.5 10000.95 -50.6 10001 -51.3 Far Out: Frequency dBV 9990 -88.6 9990.5 -88.5 9991 -88.3 9991.5 -88.3 9992 -88.2 9992.5 -88.2 9993 -87.7 9993.5 -87.3 9994 -86.7 9994.5 -85.6 9995 -84.2 9995.5 -82.3 9996 -79.8 9996.5 -76.6 9997 -73.4 9997.5 -68.9 9998 -63.7 9998.5 -56.9 9999 -49.4 9999.5 -38.4 10000 - 0.1 10000.5 -42.3 10001 -51.5 10001.5 -58.5 10002 -65.5 10002.5 -70.4 10003 -74.5 10003.5 -77.8 10004 -80.7 10004.5 -82.9 10005 -84.5 10005.5 -86.0 10006 -86.9 10006.5 -87.3 10007 -87.8 10007.5 -88.1 10008 -88.2 10008.5 -88.4 10009 -88.5 10009.5 -88.5 10010 -88.8 |
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In reply to this post by Jerry Flanders
Jerry:
I've not seen any setup corruption from the K3 Filter program, but I have not tried all my K3's functions after running the filter program. I hope to add a web page with some details on how to use the filter program, but my project list is expanding faster than the time available to complete them, so I can't promise it will be done soon. Jack K8ZOA www.cliftonlaboratories.com Jerry Flanders wrote: > After I used it, my K3 had been changed. Before, it was a 100 W unit. > After, only 12. I had to restore an earlier K3 configuration file to > restore it. There might have been other K3 changes also that I > corrected by this config restore without even knowing they had > occurred, so other users should watch for them. > > Also, I had to reboot the computer to get the serial port back - > K3FilterTools apparently did not release it when it exited. > > OTOH, I recall having some weirdness occur while trying to get the > filter scan and might have upset the program and caused these > problems myself as I tried to recover from the weirdness - don't > remember details of it. > > Thankfully, my K3 did not transmit into the signal generator - > probably would have ruined the little Elecraft XG-2 and w8diz 10 MHz > oscillator I was using.. > > I think this will be a really useful program when we understand how > to safely use it. I read all the help files that came with the > program, but have not read Jack Smith's writeup on the method yet. > > Jerry W4UK > > At 10:19 1/18/2009, Ian White GM3SEK wrote: > >> Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: >> >> >>>>> The program is called K3 Filter Tools and can be downloaded >>>>> >>>> free from: http://mysite.verizon.net/ks7d >>>> >>>>> Mike, KS7D >>>>> >>> Note: when using Mike's software, AUTOINF must be set to NOR. >>> Anyone who normally has AUTOINF=1 (e.g. for a SteppIR antenna) >>> will need to manually reset it before using the software in >>> order to get usable data. >>> >>> >> Mike's program is an excellent addition to the K3 toolkit... but as Joe >> points out, be aware that it takes control of the K3 in ways we might >> not expect. >> >> If the K3 is configured for PTT or CW keying using the CTS and/or DTR >> lines, the Filter Tools program may cause the rig to transmit. (No harm >> done, as the signal generator was connected to the RX ANT port, but >> definitely an unexpected event.) >> >> Before using *any* new program that takes control of the rig, it is also >> a good idea to use Elecraft's K3 Utilities program to grab a config >> file, and then reload the original rig configuration afterwards. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> 73 from Ian GM3SEK >> http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek >> _______________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Post to: [hidden email] >> You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): >> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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I too had the serial port lockup, and had to reboot windows to release the
hold on it. The program explictly should leave the RTS/DTR alone. Once I started a scan I was never able to stop it. Doc doesn't give any help about how to set RF gain, and what the numbers mean. That would be really helpful. I think it would be helpful to have the scan automatically add or subtract the preamp to extend the vertical range of the scan off the passband. Note that I'm not deleting the program. I will get good at using it however it works. But I notice more about the program when I'm trying to learn it. What's the most vertical skirt db's anyone has gotten and what were your input and RF gain settings to get it. 73, Guy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Smith" <[hidden email]> To: "Jerry Flanders" <[hidden email]> Cc: <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 12:47 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter Plots > Jerry: > > I've not seen any setup corruption from the K3 Filter program, but I > have not tried all my K3's functions after running the filter program. > > I hope to add a web page with some details on how to use the filter > program, but my project list is expanding faster than the time > available to complete them, so I can't promise it will be done soon. > > Jack K8ZOA > www.cliftonlaboratories.com > > > Jerry Flanders wrote: >> After I used it, my K3 had been changed. Before, it was a 100 W unit. >> After, only 12. I had to restore an earlier K3 configuration file to >> restore it. There might have been other K3 changes also that I >> corrected by this config restore without even knowing they had >> occurred, so other users should watch for them. >> >> Also, I had to reboot the computer to get the serial port back - >> K3FilterTools apparently did not release it when it exited. >> >> OTOH, I recall having some weirdness occur while trying to get the >> filter scan and might have upset the program and caused these >> problems myself as I tried to recover from the weirdness - don't >> remember details of it. >> >> Thankfully, my K3 did not transmit into the signal generator - >> probably would have ruined the little Elecraft XG-2 and w8diz 10 MHz >> oscillator I was using.. >> >> I think this will be a really useful program when we understand how >> to safely use it. I read all the help files that came with the >> program, but have not read Jack Smith's writeup on the method yet. >> >> Jerry W4UK >> >> At 10:19 1/18/2009, Ian White GM3SEK wrote: >> >>> Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: >>> >>> >>>>>> The program is called K3 Filter Tools and can be downloaded >>>>>> >>>>> free from: http://mysite.verizon.net/ks7d >>>>> >>>>>> Mike, KS7D >>>>>> >>>> Note: when using Mike's software, AUTOINF must be set to NOR. >>>> Anyone who normally has AUTOINF=1 (e.g. for a SteppIR antenna) >>>> will need to manually reset it before using the software in >>>> order to get usable data. >>>> >>>> >>> Mike's program is an excellent addition to the K3 toolkit... but as Joe >>> points out, be aware that it takes control of the K3 in ways we might >>> not expect. >>> >>> If the K3 is configured for PTT or CW keying using the CTS and/or DTR >>> lines, the Filter Tools program may cause the rig to transmit. (No harm >>> done, as the signal generator was connected to the RX ANT port, but >>> definitely an unexpected event.) >>> >>> Before using *any* new program that takes control of the rig, it is also >>> a good idea to use Elecraft's K3 Utilities program to grab a config >>> file, and then reload the original rig configuration afterwards. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> 73 from Ian GM3SEK >>> http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Elecraft mailing list >>> Post to: [hidden email] >>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): >>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >>> >>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Post to: [hidden email] >> You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): >> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Jerry Flanders
Jerry wrote:
> After I used it, my K3 had been changed. Before, it was a 100 W unit. > After, only 12. I had to restore an earlier K3 configuration file to > restore it. There might have been other K3 changes also that I > corrected by this config restore without even knowing they had > occurred, so other users should watch for them. When you begin the dBV Linearity or Filter Sweep procedure, the program records the K3's settings for AGC, Preamp, Attenuator, RF Gain, Mode, Power, VFO Frequency, Filter Number, and Filter Bandwidth. During the procedure the program turns off AGC, Preamp and Attenuator if they are on, and sets the Power to 0.0 watts (just in case). At the completion of the procedure the user can click the Reset K3 button to return their K3 to the state it was in before the procedure began, or when they close the form their K3 will be reset automatically. Of course, if the program is prematurely terminated by the user it will not have been able to reset the K3. > Also, I had to reboot the computer to get the serial port back - > K3FilterTools apparently did not release it when it exited. This was a problem with the original program posted on the web site. If the program was terminated by using the File Exit command it would release the serial port, but not if it was ended by using the Control Box (my bad). This issue was fixed and the revised program uploaded to my web site on Thursday evening (1/15/09). > Thankfully, my K3 did not transmit into the signal generator - > probably would have ruined the little Elecraft XG-2 and w8diz 10 MHz > oscillator I was using. Accidental transmits are the reason the program sets Power output to 0.0 watts when the procedures are running. However, if the user has set Config Autoinfo to Auto 1, the K3 can be keyed when the user first connects to their K3. This problem has been fixed, but the revised program has not been uploaded to my web site yet. I plan to upload it this evening along with some other revisions I am working on. Thank you for reporting the problems you had using the program. That way I can fix them. Mike, KS7D _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV
Because of the K3's range between noise contamination of the reading and
non-linearity due to hardware AGC, you will see between 60 and 70 dB of usable dynamic range in the plot. I see around 70 dB on my K3 with the hardware AGC modification, whilst Mike sees around 60 dB on his K3 built before the hardware AGC modification. The reason for first determining the appropriate manual gain setting is to set the gain at the point where the test signal just starts to hit non-linearity in the filter passband. This allows one to use a test signal of arbitrary strength, instead of saying "apply a test signal of -50 dBm" which requires a calibrated signal generator or test oscillator. By adjusting the manual gain using the linearity program you can use a test signal anywhere between -50 dBm or so up to -20 dBm or even greater. Mike and I tried a number of experiments with stitching together pieces of the plot taken at different gain settings with the thought that the dynamic range could be extended to 100 dB or more. While I have not given up on this thought, the K3 has some quirks that make it difficult to implement without much more thought and tinkering. Jack K8ZOA Guy Olinger, K2AV wrote: > I too had the serial port lockup, and had to reboot windows to release > the hold on it. The program explictly should leave the RTS/DTR > alone. Once I started a scan I was never able to stop it. Doc > doesn't give any help about how to set RF gain, and what the numbers > mean. That would be really helpful. > > I think it would be helpful to have the scan automatically add or > subtract the preamp to extend the vertical range of the scan off the > passband. > > Note that I'm not deleting the program. I will get good at using it > however it works. But I notice more about the program when I'm trying > to learn it. > > What's the most vertical skirt db's anyone has gotten and what were > your input and RF gain settings to get it. > > 73, Guy. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Smith" > <[hidden email]> > To: "Jerry Flanders" <[hidden email]> > Cc: <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]> > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 12:47 PM > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Filter Plots > > >> Jerry: >> >> I've not seen any setup corruption from the K3 Filter program, but I >> have not tried all my K3's functions after running the filter program. >> >> I hope to add a web page with some details on how to use the filter >> program, but my project list is expanding faster than the time >> available to complete them, so I can't promise it will be done soon. >> >> Jack K8ZOA >> www.cliftonlaboratories.com >> >> >> Jerry Flanders wrote: >>> After I used it, my K3 had been changed. Before, it was a 100 W unit. >>> After, only 12. I had to restore an earlier K3 configuration file to >>> restore it. There might have been other K3 changes also that I >>> corrected by this config restore without even knowing they had >>> occurred, so other users should watch for them. >>> >>> Also, I had to reboot the computer to get the serial port back - >>> K3FilterTools apparently did not release it when it exited. >>> >>> OTOH, I recall having some weirdness occur while trying to get the >>> filter scan and might have upset the program and caused these >>> problems myself as I tried to recover from the weirdness - don't >>> remember details of it. >>> >>> Thankfully, my K3 did not transmit into the signal generator - >>> probably would have ruined the little Elecraft XG-2 and w8diz 10 MHz >>> oscillator I was using.. >>> >>> I think this will be a really useful program when we understand how >>> to safely use it. I read all the help files that came with the >>> program, but have not read Jack Smith's writeup on the method yet. >>> >>> Jerry W4UK >>> >>> At 10:19 1/18/2009, Ian White GM3SEK wrote: >>> >>>> Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> The program is called K3 Filter Tools and can be downloaded >>>>>>> >>>>>> free from: http://mysite.verizon.net/ks7d >>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike, KS7D >>>>>>> >>>>> Note: when using Mike's software, AUTOINF must be set to NOR. >>>>> Anyone who normally has AUTOINF=1 (e.g. for a SteppIR antenna) >>>>> will need to manually reset it before using the software in >>>>> order to get usable data. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Mike's program is an excellent addition to the K3 toolkit... but as >>>> Joe >>>> points out, be aware that it takes control of the K3 in ways we might >>>> not expect. >>>> >>>> If the K3 is configured for PTT or CW keying using the CTS and/or DTR >>>> lines, the Filter Tools program may cause the rig to transmit. (No >>>> harm >>>> done, as the signal generator was connected to the RX ANT port, but >>>> definitely an unexpected event.) >>>> >>>> Before using *any* new program that takes control of the rig, it is >>>> also >>>> a good idea to use Elecraft's K3 Utilities program to grab a config >>>> file, and then reload the original rig configuration afterwards. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> 73 from Ian GM3SEK >>>> http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Elecraft mailing list >>>> Post to: [hidden email] >>>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >>>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): >>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >>>> >>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >>>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Elecraft mailing list >>> Post to: [hidden email] >>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): >>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >>> >>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Post to: [hidden email] >> You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): >> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com >> > > > Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV
Guy wrote:
> I too had the serial port lockup, and had to reboot windows to release the > hold on it. Please download the most recent version of the program. This problem has been fixed. >The program explicitly should leave the RTS/DTR alone. The program does not use the RTS or DTS lines, but if the K3 has Config Autoinfo set to Auto 1 the K3 could be keyed. I have revised the program to disable the RTS/DTR lines while it is running. This version will be uploaded to my web site tonight. >Once I started a scan I was never able to stop it. The scans/procedures operate under control of a Do Loop and as a result the program is slow to respond while the scan is in progress. Usually, if the user clicks Stop Test/Stop Sweep the procedure will end within several seconds. Sometimes you have to click the button a second time. The procedures are purposely slow because each time the RF Gain or Frequency are incremented it is necessary to wait a couple of seconds for the dBV reading to settle. >Doc doesn't give any help about how to set RF gain, and what the numbers >mean. That would be really helpful. Agreed. I am working on improved Help now and this enhancement will be included. > I think it would be helpful to have the scan automatically add or subtract > the preamp to extend the vertical range of the scan off the passband. I will ask Jack Smith about this. He is the technical expert. Thank you for your observations and suggestions Guy. Mike, KS7D _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by AD6XY
AD6XY wrote:
> This is very interesting and useful. It looks a little bit like a Borland > app > but I expect it is not. It is a VB6 application. I used the older VB technology to keep the program small and to avoid users having to download .Net updates which consume a lot of resources and can take 30 minutes or more to download even on a fast Internet connection. > The first time I tried the linearity check I had the volume up - loud > mistake! I hadn't thought about having the program turn the AF gain down for users. I can add that capability if it would be desirable. > It takes a very long time to sweep a filter this way, it may be better to > implement some form of variable sweep based say on the difference between > the last value. One tends to want detail in the passband but not so much > in > the stopband. I will look into this change. May want to make it optional for users to implement. Or I suppose the user could just set the frequency range narrower to focus on the passband portion of the response. > One thing we are missing is phase response (AM/PM), I would be interested > to > know if there is any way to measure this with a sound card. Maybe Jack Smith can respond to this question. I have no idea. > There are a few rough edges, it is easy to crash if you enter nothing into > a > checkbox that is not explicitly checked. Could you point me to the unchecked checkbox that caused the program to crash? > The stop button does not always get > enough attention paid to it. (Application->ProcessMessages ?) The scans/procedures operate under control of a Do Loop and as a result the program is slow to respond while the scan is in progress. Usually, if the user clicks Stop Test/Stop Sweep the procedure will end within several seconds. Sometimes you have to click the button a second time. The procedures are purposely slow because each time the RF Gain or Frequency are incremented it is necessary to wait a couple of seconds for the dBV reading to settle. The program uses Application.DoEvents to track events while the loop is running and allow the user to stop a scan. Thank you for your observations and suggestions. Mike, KS7D _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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