Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion
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Hi Clay,
Because this is of general interest, I'm replying to the list. First, LiFePO4 batteries are pretty much ideal for ham applications because of their relatively flat discharge curve, and because their Ah vs weight ratio is a good compromise. For example, an LiFePO4 pack will be above 12.5 for about 80% of capacity and 12V for 90% of capacity, while a lead-acid battery will drop below 12V before it reaches 50% of capacity. Second, LiFePO4 batteries provide a LOT more charge-discharge cycles if treated properly. The result is that if you're going to use them for a lot of years, the longer life more than compensates for their higher cost. Third, LiFePO4 batteries are MUCH safer than Li-ion batteries. Disadvantages of LiFePO4 are initial cost and the fact that they need a special charger. However -- Bioenne told me that they can be safely charged using the West Mountain SuperPWR Gate set for AGM batteries and a power supply that is adjusted to about 14.5 volts. The AGM setting of the PwrGate limits the charging voltage to 14.2V, which is what LiFePO4 batteries need. Also, LiFePO4 batteries do NOT like to be discharged below about 95%, so care must be taken not to fully discharge them. Good battery packs will have control circuity that prevents this. Now, as to how much battery to buy. Start by studying current draw of the radio(s) and other equipment that you'll use with the battery, taking TX/RX duty cycle into account. Also look at weight if you're going to carry it. I bought a 20Ah pack (5.5#) to loan to a friend who was going to pack several miles uphill to activate a rare 6M grid with a KX3 and the 100W amp, and I just bought a 100Ah pack (26#) to run my SO2R shack. If I were going to pack with a KX2 or KX3, I'd buy something much smaller, like 6 - 12 Ah (2 - 4#), or even smaller. Your application carrying a K3/P3 around to chase RFI pulls about 1.6A, (1.8A with the SVGA module in the P3). A KX3 plus PX3 pulls about 350 mA at max screen brightness. Bioenne (and other vendors) package their LiFePO4 batteries more than one way for the same Ah capacity, often to retrofit into existing gear. With Bioenne batteries, I chose the PVC pack, which is lighter weight than the rectangular "solid" format. Bioenne and other battery vendors do NOT say that their chargers are RF-quiet, which is why you would use a PowerGate and known clean supply. To charge from solar, buy a Genasun charge regulator, which IS pretty RF-quiet. I've told Bioenne that they need to find quiet chargers. We'll see how they respond. As to voltages -- I would ONLY buy 12V nominal to power ham gear. If you need other voltages for other gear, look at http://www.batteryspace.com which carries a MUCH broader range of batteries. They're also good people, located in the SF Bay area. Bioenne is in Santa Ana, CA. I've chosen to avoid voltage boost products, which are essentially SMPS, and noisy. Yes, you can set them to be active only on TX, but if you're running two radios, the one you aren't TXing on will hear the noise. As to charging -- LiFePO4 batteries will last a lot longer if they are not fast-charged. A good rule of thumb is their 4 hour or 10 hour discharge current. In other words, for a 20Ah battery, avoid more than about 5A charge current. If you're sizing the battery to power your shack and will be float charging it, the charge current can be added to the capacity to figure how much battery you need. In my application, with worst case of SO2R contesting at 100W, I'll be TX on one radio or the other almost all the time, so I'm looking at roughly 12A worst case. If I wasn't doing SO2R, I could get by with a smaller battery. For non-critical applications like video monitors, router, cable modem, etc, I'm using el-cheapo lead acid batteries from my hamfest stash, and floating them from suitably sized linear wall warts. I've found that for most gear, voltage is not all that critical. For example, my Samsung computer monitors are sold with a 14VDC wall wart, but were still running fine when my lead-acid battery had dropped to 10.5 volts. I've looked around a lot, and so far have not found a better practical battery chemistry than LiFePO4. Another important point. For running electronics of all types, we do NOT want automotive batteries, which are primarily designed to provide a big hunk of current to start the engine, but which don't like to be deeply discharged. Instead, we want deep discharge types. Pay attention to this when selecting a battery. 73, Jim K9YC On Thu,6/30/2016 12:07 PM, Clay Autery wrote: > Jim, > > Looking to get LFP batts for my shack/house/mobile. > > Could you recommend sizing guidance? Is it as simple as multiplying the > voltage x amps to get watts and then dividing by 12VDC to get a 12VDC > current draw, and then spec'ing a batt based on Ah, etc etc... calculate > run time to 80% discharge (they claim up to 90%). > Or do I need to spec for some % overhead. I usually size stuff for 50% > overhead, so that if the device is running flat out it won't push the > supply beyond 50% max continuous. Does that apply here? > > Suggestions on how to get the required voltages I need: > > 5VDC - Probably won't need for now... Can get most of the supply I need > from the laptop docking station via multiple powered USB sockets. > 12 VDC - easy (and run the 18.8 VDC K3s and P3 from 12V if I have to?) > 13.8 VDC - For radio if possible to do it quietly. (12 VDC w/ boost > circuit or 24 VDC with buck circuit... Boost seems more efficient, but > see below) > 19.5 VDC - Laptop (and USB 5VDC) Boost or buck... > > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated... > > At a minimum, I want to get at least one battery to run my K3s/P3 to > hunt RFI with the house service off and then on one branch at a time. > At some point want to put batteries on all HAM, Broadband, Router, and > switches... > > > Thanks... > > ______________________ > Clay Autery, KY5G > MONTAC Enterprises ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: Choosing A Battery For Ham Use
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Jim, this is very helpful info. I'm just in the planning process of taking my station solar and this is information that will help immensely. Thanks.
Chuck NN7U
Chuck Teague
NN7U |
Re: Choosing A Battery For Ham Use
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In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
My RC hobby charger manages these batteries according to specs. I have not
tried but am ready to pull the plug to use them to charge my LIPOs in the field to enjoy more operation time. Any thoughts or experience appreciated. I do RC via boats, cars and sailplanes. Bill K9YEQ -----Original Message----- From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Brown Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 3:29 PM To: Reflector Elecraft <[hidden email]> Subject: [Elecraft] Choosing A Battery For Ham Use Hi Clay, Because this is of general interest, I'm replying to the list. First, LiFePO4 batteries are pretty much ideal for ham applications because of their relatively flat discharge curve, and because their Ah vs weight ratio is a good compromise. For example, an LiFePO4 pack will be above 12.5 for about 80% of capacity and 12V for 90% of capacity, while a lead-acid battery will drop below 12V before it reaches 50% of capacity. Second, LiFePO4 batteries provide a LOT more charge-discharge cycles if treated properly. The result is that if you're going to use them for a lot of years, the longer life more than compensates for their higher cost. Third, LiFePO4 batteries are MUCH safer than Li-ion batteries. Disadvantages of LiFePO4 are initial cost and the fact that they need a special charger. However -- Bioenne told me that they can be safely charged using the West Mountain SuperPWR Gate set for AGM batteries and a power supply that is adjusted to about 14.5 volts. The AGM setting of the PwrGate limits the charging voltage to 14.2V, which is what LiFePO4 batteries need. Also, LiFePO4 batteries do NOT like to be discharged below about 95%, so care must be taken not to fully discharge them. Good battery packs will have control circuity that prevents this. Now, as to how much battery to buy. Start by studying current draw of the radio(s) and other equipment that you'll use with the battery, taking TX/RX duty cycle into account. Also look at weight if you're going to carry it. I bought a 20Ah pack (5.5#) to loan to a friend who was going to pack several miles uphill to activate a rare 6M grid with a KX3 and the 100W amp, and I just bought a 100Ah pack (26#) to run my SO2R shack. If I were going to pack with a KX2 or KX3, I'd buy something much smaller, like 6 - 12 Ah (2 - 4#), or even smaller. Your application carrying a K3/P3 around to chase RFI pulls about 1.6A, (1.8A with the SVGA module in the P3). A KX3 plus PX3 pulls about 350 mA at max screen brightness. Bioenne (and other vendors) package their LiFePO4 batteries more than one way for the same Ah capacity, often to retrofit into existing gear. With Bioenne batteries, I chose the PVC pack, which is lighter weight than the rectangular "solid" format. Bioenne and other battery vendors do NOT say that their chargers are RF-quiet, which is why you would use a PowerGate and known clean supply. To charge from solar, buy a Genasun charge regulator, which IS pretty RF-quiet. I've told Bioenne that they need to find quiet chargers. We'll see how they respond. As to voltages -- I would ONLY buy 12V nominal to power ham gear. If you need other voltages for other gear, look at http://www.batteryspace.com which carries a MUCH broader range of batteries. They're also good people, located in the SF Bay area. Bioenne is in Santa Ana, CA. I've chosen to avoid voltage boost products, which are essentially SMPS, and noisy. Yes, you can set them to be active only on TX, but if you're running two radios, the one you aren't TXing on will hear the noise. As to charging -- LiFePO4 batteries will last a lot longer if they are not fast-charged. A good rule of thumb is their 4 hour or 10 hour discharge current. In other words, for a 20Ah battery, avoid more than about 5A charge current. If you're sizing the battery to power your shack and will be float charging it, the charge current can be added to the capacity to figure how much battery you need. In my application, with worst case of SO2R contesting at 100W, I'll be TX on one radio or the other almost all the time, so I'm looking at roughly 12A worst case. If I wasn't doing SO2R, I could get by with a smaller battery. For non-critical applications like video monitors, router, cable modem, etc, I'm using el-cheapo lead acid batteries from my hamfest stash, and floating them from suitably sized linear wall warts. I've found that for most gear, voltage is not all that critical. For example, my Samsung computer monitors are sold with a 14VDC wall wart, but were still running fine when my lead-acid battery had dropped to 10.5 volts. I've looked around a lot, and so far have not found a better practical battery chemistry than LiFePO4. Another important point. For running electronics of all types, we do NOT want automotive batteries, which are primarily designed to provide a big hunk of current to start the engine, but which don't like to be deeply discharged. Instead, we want deep discharge types. Pay attention to this when selecting a battery. 73, Jim K9YC On Thu,6/30/2016 12:07 PM, Clay Autery wrote: > Jim, > > Looking to get LFP batts for my shack/house/mobile. > > Could you recommend sizing guidance? Is it as simple as multiplying > the voltage x amps to get watts and then dividing by 12VDC to get a > 12VDC current draw, and then spec'ing a batt based on Ah, etc etc... > calculate run time to 80% discharge (they claim up to 90%). > Or do I need to spec for some % overhead. I usually size stuff for > 50% overhead, so that if the device is running flat out it won't push > the supply beyond 50% max continuous. Does that apply here? > > Suggestions on how to get the required voltages I need: > > 5VDC - Probably won't need for now... Can get most of the supply I > need from the laptop docking station via multiple powered USB sockets. > 12 VDC - easy (and run the 18.8 VDC K3s and P3 from 12V if I have to?) > 13.8 VDC - For radio if possible to do it quietly. (12 VDC w/ boost > circuit or 24 VDC with buck circuit... Boost seems more efficient, > but see below) > 19.5 VDC - Laptop (and USB 5VDC) Boost or buck... > > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated... > > At a minimum, I want to get at least one battery to run my K3s/P3 to > hunt RFI with the house service off and then on one branch at a time. > At some point want to put batteries on all HAM, Broadband, Router, and > switches... > > > Thanks... > > ______________________ > Clay Autery, KY5G > MONTAC Enterprises ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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I'm also replying to the list. Jim's advice and observations [I left
them on this] are in total agreement with mine. My LiFePO4 A123 4S1P pack powers my K2 for way longer than I choose to sit on the ground on some SOTA peak. With the K2, over-discharge is self-limiting -- at what amounts to full discharge on the pack, the voltage drops very quickly and the K2 shuts down. Store them with about 75-80% charge. I've had one LiPoly RC pack burst into flames while operating in a Spartan Sprint with my KX1. Fortunately, I was out on the deck, and more fortunately, had the pack on a pigtail external to the KX1 and could fling it over onto the gravel driveway. I understand their use and good attributes in the RC-world, my only advice is charge them outside. :-) Yes, LiFePO4's do require a cell-balancing charger [some say they don't, but then some say the moon landings were faked too], and this complicates a situation where you want to power your station from batteries on a float charger. If ounces matter to you, LiPoly is probably the lightest for the capacity. Hard to beat LiFePO4 if you can tolerate a little more weight however. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016 - www.cqp.org On 6/30/2016 4:17 PM, Bill wrote: > My RC hobby charger manages these batteries according to specs. I have not > tried but am ready to pull the plug to use them to charge my LIPOs in the > field to enjoy more operation time. Any thoughts or experience appreciated. > I do RC via boats, cars and sailplanes. > > Bill > K9YEQ > -----Original Message----- > From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim > Brown > Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 3:29 PM > To: Reflector Elecraft <[hidden email]> > Subject: [Elecraft] Choosing A Battery For Ham Use > > Hi Clay, > > Because this is of general interest, I'm replying to the list. > > First, LiFePO4 batteries are pretty much ideal for ham applications because > of their relatively flat discharge curve, and because their Ah vs weight > ratio is a good compromise. For example, an LiFePO4 pack will be above 12.5 > for about 80% of capacity and 12V for 90% of capacity, while a lead-acid > battery will drop below 12V before it reaches 50% of capacity. > > Second, LiFePO4 batteries provide a LOT more charge-discharge cycles if > treated properly. The result is that if you're going to use them for a lot > of years, the longer life more than compensates for their higher cost. > > Third, LiFePO4 batteries are MUCH safer than Li-ion batteries. > > Disadvantages of LiFePO4 are initial cost and the fact that they need a > special charger. However -- Bioenne told me that they can be safely charged > using the West Mountain SuperPWR Gate set for AGM batteries and a power > supply that is adjusted to about 14.5 volts. The AGM setting of the PwrGate > limits the charging voltage to 14.2V, which is what LiFePO4 batteries need. > Also, LiFePO4 batteries do NOT like to be discharged below about 95%, so > care must be taken not to fully discharge them. Good battery packs will have > control circuity that prevents this. > > Now, as to how much battery to buy. Start by studying current draw of the > radio(s) and other equipment that you'll use with the battery, taking TX/RX > duty cycle into account. Also look at weight if you're going to carry it. I > bought a 20Ah pack (5.5#) to loan to a friend who was going to pack several > miles uphill to activate a rare 6M grid with a > KX3 and the 100W amp, and I just bought a 100Ah pack (26#) to run my SO2R > shack. If I were going to pack with a KX2 or KX3, I'd buy something much > smaller, like 6 - 12 Ah (2 - 4#), or even smaller. Your application > carrying a K3/P3 around to chase RFI pulls about 1.6A, (1.8A with the SVGA > module in the P3). A KX3 plus PX3 pulls about 350 mA at max screen > brightness. > > Bioenne (and other vendors) package their LiFePO4 batteries more than one > way for the same Ah capacity, often to retrofit into existing gear. > With Bioenne batteries, I chose the PVC pack, which is lighter weight than > the rectangular "solid" format. > > Bioenne and other battery vendors do NOT say that their chargers are > RF-quiet, which is why you would use a PowerGate and known clean supply. > To charge from solar, buy a Genasun charge regulator, which IS pretty > RF-quiet. I've told Bioenne that they need to find quiet chargers. > We'll see how they respond. > > As to voltages -- I would ONLY buy 12V nominal to power ham gear. If you > need other voltages for other gear, look at http://www.batteryspace.com > which carries a MUCH broader range of batteries. They're also good people, > located in the SF Bay area. Bioenne is in Santa Ana, CA. > > I've chosen to avoid voltage boost products, which are essentially SMPS, and > noisy. Yes, you can set them to be active only on TX, but if you're running > two radios, the one you aren't TXing on will hear the noise. > > As to charging -- LiFePO4 batteries will last a lot longer if they are not > fast-charged. A good rule of thumb is their 4 hour or 10 hour discharge > current. In other words, for a 20Ah battery, avoid more than about 5A charge > current. > > If you're sizing the battery to power your shack and will be float charging > it, the charge current can be added to the capacity to figure how much > battery you need. In my application, with worst case of SO2R contesting at > 100W, I'll be TX on one radio or the other almost all the time, so I'm > looking at roughly 12A worst case. If I wasn't doing SO2R, I could get by > with a smaller battery. > > For non-critical applications like video monitors, router, cable modem, etc, > I'm using el-cheapo lead acid batteries from my hamfest stash, and floating > them from suitably sized linear wall warts. I've found that for most gear, > voltage is not all that critical. For example, my Samsung computer monitors > are sold with a 14VDC wall wart, but were still running fine when my > lead-acid battery had dropped to 10.5 volts. > > I've looked around a lot, and so far have not found a better practical > battery chemistry than LiFePO4. > > Another important point. For running electronics of all types, we do NOT > want automotive batteries, which are primarily designed to provide a big > hunk of current to start the engine, but which don't like to be deeply > discharged. Instead, we want deep discharge types. Pay attention to this > when selecting a battery. > > 73, Jim K9YC > > On Thu,6/30/2016 12:07 PM, Clay Autery wrote: >> Jim, >> >> Looking to get LFP batts for my shack/house/mobile. >> >> Could you recommend sizing guidance? Is it as simple as multiplying >> the voltage x amps to get watts and then dividing by 12VDC to get a >> 12VDC current draw, and then spec'ing a batt based on Ah, etc etc... >> calculate run time to 80% discharge (they claim up to 90%). >> Or do I need to spec for some % overhead. I usually size stuff for >> 50% overhead, so that if the device is running flat out it won't push >> the supply beyond 50% max continuous. Does that apply here? >> >> Suggestions on how to get the required voltages I need: >> >> 5VDC - Probably won't need for now... Can get most of the supply I >> need from the laptop docking station via multiple powered USB sockets. >> 12 VDC - easy (and run the 18.8 VDC K3s and P3 from 12V if I have to?) >> 13.8 VDC - For radio if possible to do it quietly. (12 VDC w/ boost >> circuit or 24 VDC with buck circuit... Boost seems more efficient, >> but see below) >> 19.5 VDC - Laptop (and USB 5VDC) Boost or buck... >> >> Any ideas would be greatly appreciated... >> >> At a minimum, I want to get at least one battery to run my K3s/P3 to >> hunt RFI with the house service off and then on one branch at a time. >> At some point want to put batteries on all HAM, Broadband, Router, and >> switches... >> >> >> Thanks... >> >> ______________________ >> Clay Autery, KY5G >> MONTAC Enterprises > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message > delivered to [hidden email] > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2016.0.7640 / Virus Database: 4613/12526 - Release Date: 06/30/16 > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: Choosing A Battery For Ham Use
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In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
Thanks Jim! That'll get me started!
______________________ Clay Autery, KY5G MONTAC Enterprises (318) 518-1389 On 6/30/2016 3:28 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > Hi Clay, > > Because this is of general interest, I'm replying to the list. > > First, LiFePO4 batteries are pretty much ideal for ham applications > because of their relatively flat discharge curve, and because their Ah > vs weight ratio is a good compromise. For example, an LiFePO4 pack > will be above 12.5 for about 80% of capacity and 12V for 90% of > capacity, while a lead-acid battery will drop below 12V before it > reaches 50% of capacity. > > Second, LiFePO4 batteries provide a LOT more charge-discharge cycles > if treated properly. The result is that if you're going to use them > for a lot of years, the longer life more than compensates for their > higher cost. > > Third, LiFePO4 batteries are MUCH safer than Li-ion batteries. > > Disadvantages of LiFePO4 are initial cost and the fact that they need > a special charger. However -- Bioenne told me that they can be safely > charged using the West Mountain SuperPWR Gate set for AGM batteries > and a power supply that is adjusted to about 14.5 volts. The AGM > setting of the PwrGate limits the charging voltage to 14.2V, which is > what LiFePO4 batteries need. Also, LiFePO4 batteries do NOT like to > be discharged below about 95%, so care must be taken not to fully > discharge them. Good battery packs will have control circuity that > prevents this. > > Now, as to how much battery to buy. Start by studying current draw of > the radio(s) and other equipment that you'll use with the battery, > taking TX/RX duty cycle into account. Also look at weight if you're > going to carry it. I bought a 20Ah pack (5.5#) to loan to a friend > who was going to pack several miles uphill to activate a rare 6M grid > with a KX3 and the 100W amp, and I just bought a 100Ah pack (26#) to > run my SO2R shack. If I were going to pack with a KX2 or KX3, I'd buy > something much smaller, like 6 - 12 Ah (2 - 4#), or even smaller. > Your application carrying a K3/P3 around to chase RFI pulls about > 1.6A, (1.8A with the SVGA module in the P3). A KX3 plus PX3 pulls > about 350 mA at max screen brightness. > > Bioenne (and other vendors) package their LiFePO4 batteries more than > one way for the same Ah capacity, often to retrofit into existing > gear. With Bioenne batteries, I chose the PVC pack, which is lighter > weight than the rectangular "solid" format. > > Bioenne and other battery vendors do NOT say that their chargers are > RF-quiet, which is why you would use a PowerGate and known clean > supply. To charge from solar, buy a Genasun charge regulator, which IS > pretty RF-quiet. I've told Bioenne that they need to find quiet > chargers. We'll see how they respond. > > As to voltages -- I would ONLY buy 12V nominal to power ham gear. If > you need other voltages for other gear, look at > http://www.batteryspace.com which carries a MUCH broader range of > batteries. They're also good people, located in the SF Bay area. > Bioenne is in Santa Ana, CA. > > I've chosen to avoid voltage boost products, which are essentially > SMPS, and noisy. Yes, you can set them to be active only on TX, but if > you're running two radios, the one you aren't TXing on will hear the > noise. > > As to charging -- LiFePO4 batteries will last a lot longer if they are > not fast-charged. A good rule of thumb is their 4 hour or 10 hour > discharge current. In other words, for a 20Ah battery, avoid more than > about 5A charge current. > > If you're sizing the battery to power your shack and will be float > charging it, the charge current can be added to the capacity to figure > how much battery you need. In my application, with worst case of SO2R > contesting at 100W, I'll be TX on one radio or the other almost all > the time, so I'm looking at roughly 12A worst case. If I wasn't doing > SO2R, I could get by with a smaller battery. > > For non-critical applications like video monitors, router, cable > modem, etc, I'm using el-cheapo lead acid batteries from my hamfest > stash, and floating them from suitably sized linear wall warts. I've > found that for most gear, voltage is not all that critical. For > example, my Samsung computer monitors are sold with a 14VDC wall wart, > but were still running fine when my lead-acid battery had dropped to > 10.5 volts. > > I've looked around a lot, and so far have not found a better practical > battery chemistry than LiFePO4. > > Another important point. For running electronics of all types, we do > NOT want automotive batteries, which are primarily designed to provide > a big hunk of current to start the engine, but which don't like to be > deeply discharged. Instead, we want deep discharge types. Pay > attention to this when selecting a battery. > > 73, Jim K9YC > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: Choosing A Battery For Ham Use
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In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
I am giving this one some serious thought.
Anyone else have experience with it? http://www.portableuniversalpower.com/our-products/qrp-ranger/ Mark Lunday, WD4ELG Greensboro, NC FM06be [hidden email] http://wd4elg.blogspot.com ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Does every one who buy's a QRP RANGER one get a cracked upper right
hand foot? ARS N5GE ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email]
Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
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Re: Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion
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In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
Thanks again, Jim for linking to this vendor. Just ordered the 12
Amp/Hr battery they had on promotion with charger to 1) try them out, and 2) to power the K3s/P3 while RFI, et al hunting with all or most of the shack service shut down. ______________________ Clay Autery, KY5G MONTAC Enterprises (318) 518-1389 On 6/30/2016 11:28 AM, Jim Brown wrote: > This sale offers good discounts on some fine backpacking products from > a ham-friendly company. > > 73, Jim K9YC > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion
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Perhaps it would be overkill to consider one of these for my purpose anyway, but
based on this thread my interest was piqued about using one of these in the shack to cover short power outages. I've learned that you CANNOT charge and feed a load at the same time, i.e float charge. On 7/11/2016 5:44 AM, Clay Autery wrote: > Thanks again, Jim for linking to this vendor. Just ordered the 12 > Amp/Hr battery they had on promotion with charger to 1) try them out, > and 2) to power the K3s/P3 while RFI, et al hunting with all or most of > the shack service shut down. > > ______________________ > Clay Autery, KY5G > MONTAC Enterprises > (318) 518-1389 > > On 6/30/2016 11:28 AM, Jim Brown wrote: >> This sale offers good discounts on some fine backpacking products from >> a ham-friendly company. >> >> 73, Jim K9YC >> ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion
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On Mon,7/11/2016 12:58 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
> Perhaps it would be overkill to consider one of these for my purpose > anyway, but based on this thread my interest was piqued about using > one of these in the shack to cover short power outages. I've learned > that you CANNOT charge and feed a load at the same time, i.e float charge. Hi Wes, Where did you learn this? References I can study? I looked and didn't find anything saying that, and that's what I plan to do with the 100Ah battery I just bought. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion
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In reply to this post by Wes Stewart-2
Actually you can charge and operate at the same time. Basic charge voltage is 13.2 and finishing voltage is 14.6 volts. I've never had a problem with any Elecraft (or other) ham gear at either voltage.
Float charge would work just fine but I wouldn't make a habit of it. The control modules wired between cells need 14.6 volts (for 4S configurations) to trigger their cell balancing ability. Lead acid cells balance automatically when in series. LiFePO4 cells do not. But beware the charger RFI. The 10 amp chargers from BioennoPower are strong generators and I can't use them in the shack to recharge either the battery in use or any other battery while I'm on 80 meter CW. I'm testing some alternative high amp chargers and have found at least one that is RFI quiet. I'll be testing a second, less expensive, alternative this week. -- Marc > On Jul 11, 2016, at 3:58 PM, Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Perhaps it would be overkill to consider one of these for my purpose anyway, but based on this thread my interest was piqued about using one of these in the shack to cover short power outages. I've learned that you CANNOT charge and feed a load at the same time, i.e float charge. > >> On 7/11/2016 5:44 AM, Clay Autery wrote: >> Thanks again, Jim for linking to this vendor. Just ordered the 12 >> Amp/Hr battery they had on promotion with charger to 1) try them out, >> and 2) to power the K3s/P3 while RFI, et al hunting with all or most of >> the shack service shut down. >> >> ______________________ >> Clay Autery, KY5G >> MONTAC Enterprises >> (318) 518-1389 >> >>> On 6/30/2016 11:28 AM, Jim Brown wrote: >>> This sale offers good discounts on some fine backpacking products from >>> a ham-friendly company. >>> >>> 73, Jim K9YC > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion
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In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
I'd like to know the source of this as well. My shack power is 100W of
Siemens PV on the roof, a 10A charge controller diode-ORed with a Samlex 1235 set to 13.62V. The output charges a 75AH Optima battery, which powers the equipment 24/7. I've never had any trouble with it in the four years I've used it. 73, matt W6NIA On 7/11/2016 1:46 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > On Mon,7/11/2016 12:58 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: >> Perhaps it would be overkill to consider one of these for my purpose >> anyway, but based on this thread my interest was piqued about using >> one of these in the shack to cover short power outages. I've learned >> that you CANNOT charge and feed a load at the same time, i.e float >> charge. > > Hi Wes, > > Where did you learn this? References I can study? I looked and didn't > find anything saying that, and that's what I plan to do with the 100Ah > battery I just bought. > > 73, Jim K9YC > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] -- Always store beer in a dark place. - R. Heinlein Matt Zilmer, W6NIA [Shiraz] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion
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In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list
On Mon,7/11/2016 1:49 PM, Marc Veeneman via Elecraft wrote:
> But beware the charger RFI. The 10 amp chargers from BioennoPower are strong generators and I can't use them in the shack to recharge either the battery in use or any other battery while I'm on 80 meter CW. Thanks for all of your input, Marc. Be sure to tell BioennoPower that the charger they sold you is unacceptable, and return it for credit. I've already told them it's a problem that they must solve if they are to be successful in the ham marketplace, but they should hear it from other customers. When I asked, they told me that the chargers they sell are noisy, so I didn't buy one. They told me that one of their dealers out east had recommended using the PowerGate jumpered for AGM batteries with a linear supply adjusted to provide the charging current, and that they would consider that an in-warranty setup. I'm currently doing that with a 100Ah battery I just bought, but I'm not thrilled with it. The difference between 12V and 14.2 volts doesn't matter for ham gear except that higher voltage reduces IMD in the K3 output stage at full power output. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion
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In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
I'd like to see the reference on that one, too. As I EVENTUALLY will
add high Ah batts to run pretty much all my household electronics, et al. Even if this is a true issue, no matter. Will just have to engineer around it.... 2x batts with power consumption fed "clock" and auto-switching comes to mind as a 1st brainstorm. :-) ______________________ Clay Autery, KY5G MONTAC Enterprises (318) 518-1389 On 7/11/2016 3:46 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > On Mon,7/11/2016 12:58 PM, Wes Stewart wrote: >> Perhaps it would be overkill to consider one of these for my purpose >> anyway, but based on this thread my interest was piqued about using >> one of these in the shack to cover short power outages. I've learned >> that you CANNOT charge and feed a load at the same time, i.e float >> charge. > > Hi Wes, > > Where did you learn this? References I can study? I looked and didn't > find anything saying that, and that's what I plan to do with the 100Ah > battery I just bought. > > 73, Jim K9YC > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion
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In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list
Sounds like an engineering challenge to me... if it hasn't been
answered "open source" before I get to that step, one that I might take on... A flexible design that is "quiet" and treat the LiFePO battery(ies) as they "need" for maximal lifespan, and allowing them to be used for operation w/ "float", and/or standard charging... CC/CV charging PLUS. ______________________ Clay Autery, KY5G MONTAC Enterprises (318) 518-1389 On 7/11/2016 3:49 PM, Marc Veeneman via Elecraft wrote: > Actually you can charge and operate at the same time. Basic charge voltage is 13.2 and finishing voltage is 14.6 volts. I've never had a problem with any Elecraft (or other) ham gear at either voltage. > > Float charge would work just fine but I wouldn't make a habit of it. The control modules wired between cells need 14.6 volts (for 4S configurations) to trigger their cell balancing ability. Lead acid cells balance automatically when in series. LiFePO4 cells do not. > > But beware the charger RFI. The 10 amp chargers from BioennoPower are strong generators and I can't use them in the shack to recharge either the battery in use or any other battery while I'm on 80 meter CW. > > I'm testing some alternative high amp chargers and have found at least one that is RFI quiet. I'll be testing a second, less expensive, alternative this week. > -- Marc ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion
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In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
That seals it... HAM "quiet" charging/operation system is definitely on
the list now. I bought the little 2A charger to get me by with my little 12 Ah batt for use with RFI/noise hunting for now. But I'm going to start reading/researching and putting together a requirements list for a "proper" charging/operating system for the LiFePO batts. I like the idea/concept of the PowerGate, RigRunner, etc... And it would be nice to have a system that could run from a large cap LFP and still charge... while during non-op periods could charge to capacity and thence complete the cell balancing... (I'm assuming that is how it works generally). Time to learn something new... :-) As an aside... Jim, I think I read in one of the Bioenno batt docs that the output voltage is somewhere around 12.8 VDC... so it is "closer" to nominal... A "nice to have feature" in a system WOULD be to be able to find a way to "boost" the voltage to 13.8+ to realize the lower full power IMD, WHILE simultaneously keeping the power system "quiet". Not a priority right now. ______________________ Clay Autery, KY5G MONTAC Enterprises (318) 518-1389 On 7/11/2016 4:55 PM, Jim Brown wrote: > On Mon,7/11/2016 1:49 PM, Marc Veeneman via Elecraft wrote: >> But beware the charger RFI. The 10 amp chargers from BioennoPower >> are strong generators and I can't use them in the shack to recharge >> either the battery in use or any other battery while I'm on 80 meter CW. > > Thanks for all of your input, Marc. Be sure to tell BioennoPower that > the charger they sold you is unacceptable, and return it for credit. > I've already told them it's a problem that they must solve if they are > to be successful in the ham marketplace, but they should hear it from > other customers. > > When I asked, they told me that the chargers they sell are noisy, so I > didn't buy one. They told me that one of their dealers out east had > recommended using the PowerGate jumpered for AGM batteries with a > linear supply adjusted to provide the charging current, and that they > would consider that an in-warranty setup. I'm currently doing that > with a 100Ah battery I just bought, but I'm not thrilled with it. > > The difference between 12V and 14.2 volts doesn't matter for ham gear > except that higher voltage reduces IMD in the K3 output stage at full > power output. > > 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion
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In reply to this post by Clay Autery
I've given the reference already.
I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it, I'm just the messenger. I suppose that when I posted my first message I should have added, "According to the vendor, you cannot..." On 7/12/2016 6:39 AM, Clay Autery wrote: > I'd like to see the reference on that one, too. As I EVENTUALLY will > add high Ah batts to run pretty much all my household electronics, et al. > Even if this is a true issue, no matter. Will just have to engineer > around it.... 2x batts with power consumption fed "clock" and > auto-switching comes to mind as a 1st brainstorm. :-) > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion
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Well, please pardon my inquiry. I must have missed your earlier posting
of it. Have a nice day. O:-) ______________________ Clay Autery, KY5G MONTAC Enterprises (318) 518-1389 On 7/12/2016 11:29 AM, Wes Stewart wrote: > I've given the reference already. > > I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it, I'm just the messenger. I > suppose that when I posted my first message I should have added, > "According to the vendor, you cannot..." > > On 7/12/2016 6:39 AM, Clay Autery wrote: >> I'd like to see the reference on that one, too. As I EVENTUALLY will >> add high Ah batts to run pretty much all my household electronics, et >> al. >> Even if this is a true issue, no matter. Will just have to engineer >> around it.... 2x batts with power consumption fed "clock" and >> auto-switching comes to mind as a 1st brainstorm. :-) ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: Fwd: Bioenno's July Promotion
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In reply to this post by Wes Stewart-2
Hi Wes, et al.
I went looking through emails from you to find the reference, because I wanted to read it. I did not locate or recognize the reference in those emails. That aside... For conversation purposes I'll begin this assuming a flooded wet cell battery. That's because I have a pair of T-105 6 volt 225AH cells in series in my RV to supply the "house" "12" VDC needs. T-105's have been very common in golf carts for decades. In larger RV's it's not uncommon to see four T-105's in series parallel to supply house 12VDC. T-105's are large deep cycle flooded wet cells. They are an easy choice for an RV's house DC circuits. It's a very mature application, over 30 years of this scheme in RV's. An RV has extensive "12" volt wiring. The actual satisfactory running DC voltage on the house DC wiring can be 11 to 14.4 volts. To supply the house DC from RV park AC mains, the RV uses a high amperage three stage battery charger, with anywhere from 35 to 100 amps bulk charge rate depending on the specific battery type and configuration. Nomenclature in the RV business for this charger is "converter/charger" which I will denote hereafter with "C/C". The C/C serves two functions: 1) Supplies all the myriad 12 volt RV stuff: lights, blowers, fans, plus controls for fridge, heat, hot water heater, just to name a few. It converts the park AC to DC. 2) Charges the batteries to keep them ready for a common and deliberate operation of the RV without an AC voltage source, as in a park without electric hookups during no-generators-running quiet time. It's very common to run an AC generator from early afternoon until after supper to supply air conditioning, power the microwave, and recharge batteries. Then the generator is shut down and all runs off the house batteries until the next afternoon. A lot of us keep small inverters, 12VDC to 120V, to power cellphone chargers, game boxes, etc, when on batteries. The charging stages are: 1) Bulk charge, current limited. Where up to 80% of the battery energy capacity is replaced by the charger at maximum steady current amp rating of the charger. This charge current continues until the battery voltage reaches 14.4 volts. 2) Absorption charge, voltage limited. Voltage is held at a constant 14.4 volts and the current declines until the battery is 98% charged. 3) Float charge, voltage and current limited. Not more than 13.4 volts and usually less than 1 amp of current **into the battery**. This in time will bring the battery to 100% charged or close to it. This maintenance float charge will not boil or heat batteries but will maintain the batteries at 100% readiness and prevent cycling during long term inactivity. Some Gel Cell and AGM batteries may require different settings or chargers specific to the battery. This is related to differing optimal voltages and heat sensitivities. But the rough concept is the same. When the C/C is running from RV park or generator AC, the RV's DC bus is supplied from the C/C. In float charge the C/C will supply the RV DC at 13.4 VDC. If the AC cuts out at the park or the generator goes off, the house DC circuits will begin to discharge the battery. The battery voltage will quickly drop to the normal battery discharge curve in the upper 12.x range and continue down. When the AC comes back on, before it kicks in, the C/C detects that the battery is down on the discharge curve and re-initiates at step 1). The stink when many hams talk about operating their shack with a battery float, is that they envision hooking a battery to the output of a plain single voltage Astron RS35 or some such, the usual 13.8 volts regulated, fixed supply. One cannot properly care for a battery this way, because it needs the three charge stages for good health. If what one meant by float was a "single voltage float", then no, one cannot *properly* float a battery on one's ham station. After the first discharge event, the battery will not recharge to full charge. It needs the bulk charge voltage to recharge. However, I would not call my RV a "battery float", because "float" is only *one* charge condition of the three RV C/C charge states. But I do have ham friends who call that "float" because that's how the wires run. This little double meaning can make for some confused conversations until the specifics are brought to light. If what you meant is battery always in the circuit, no blip switching interruptions from the "uninterruptible" UPS, then yes, you can use the RV style setup in a ham station, **with a list of caveats**. You probably do not want to use T-105's for a number of reasons. But you will need to obtain a three or four stage charger setup designed for an appropriate battery. Caveats: a) You need an RV style charger-converter, or equivalent specifically matched to the battery. Some equivalents have been described in this thread. b) The bulk charge rate of the C/C must match the battery normal charge maximum. More C/C bulk charge amps than the battery max normal charge rate is NOT better. Slightly less is OK. A lot less will take a long time to return to full charge, leaving you low on charge in case of a double power outage. c) The bulk charge rate of the matched C/C - battery combo should be at least at the next step up from the max station DC amperage draw. This is so that you can run the station under normal AC supply situations at float 13.4 VDC without ever kicking into battery discharge because you turned something on. You want to save your limited number of discharge cycles, and related ventures into bulk charge rate, to actual events and stay away from bulk charge induced heat, etc, unless it's actually a battery supply event. d) In the flooded cell case, the normal C/C switching between 14.4 and 13.4 VDC, or approaching 11 VDC from a partly discharged battery must not be a problem for any of your DC station equipment. There is a parallel requirement for other battery/charger combinations that you must quantify. e) Cost of a battery and multi-stage charger suitable for a) through d) in your station environment and with bulk charge rate that covers your station's draw may exceed what you want to pay to have a Field Day Class 1E station at the ready 24/7. Throwing a lawn tractor battery across your single voltage Astron supply may appear to work, but will be very limited in its effectiveness because after the first discharge it will never return to full charge. Some may call this arrangement "working" and answer the question about float in the positive, but it is in fact severely handicapped, and does not lend itself to healthy batteries. As usual, the devil is in the details. There is a nice entry level treatise that reads well at https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/battery-basics.html My first encounter with the rather complex issues of battery floating and discharge were with AT&T Long Lines in the 60's, where we had such things as 10,000 ampere 12 VDC supplies for many thousands of tube filaments, with delta 440 AC driving huge motor generators in parallel, and strings of low gravity 2' x 2' x 5' single cell batteries floating across the discharge bus, and end cells to switch into the string to maintain 12 volts as the batteries went into their normal discharge curves. Carelessness in the battery room could get you burned, blinded, possibly killed. Also having a major switching center go down because of batteries in Washington, DC, could get one in a lot of trouble with various branches of government. We had Bell Laboratories, Bell System Practices, and lots of management in our ear all the time about how to do the batteries. Zero tolerance for battery screw-ups, for any reason. 73 and good luck, Guy K2AV On Tuesday, July 12, 2016, Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote: > I've given the reference already. > > I'm not saying I necessarily agree with it, I'm just the messenger. I > suppose that when I posted my first message I should have added, "According > to the vendor, you cannot..." > > On 7/12/2016 6:39 AM, Clay Autery wrote: > >> I'd like to see the reference on that one, too. As I EVENTUALLY will >> add high Ah batts to run pretty much all my household electronics, et al. >> Even if this is a true issue, no matter. Will just have to engineer >> around it.... 2x batts with power consumption fed "clock" and >> auto-switching comes to mind as a 1st brainstorm. :-) >> > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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