Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

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Re: Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

Craig Smith-3
Don et al,

This is a follow up to my original post, and will hopefully help others
in this similar situation.

I went to the Elecraft website "and read the KUSB serial to USB driver
notes", which I originally failed to do. I then went to the FTDI
website, located the correct driver, and found the info on deleting the
original KUSB driver, which was included on the included mini dvd disk.
I reloaded the latest version, which did the trick. The entire install
went smoothly. I've found that having the Elecraft website home page as
my start up browser page has helped me while I'm still learning the K3.
As I monitor the Reflector daily, I'll chime in if anyone needs help.

73,

Craig W6WL

On 2/5/2011 8:23 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Craig,
>
> I am glad to hear you had success.
>
> Unfortunately, many of similar problems are OS and USB to serial
> driver related.  The USB cable itself is not the problem, but the
> available drivers to support it for the various OS versions seems to
> be the biggest problem.
>
> From my recall, the older KUSB with the prolific chipset is
> problematic with Vista and Win7 OS because Prolific does not have
> current drivers for those OS.  Is this a Microsoft problem or is it a
> prolific chipset problem - I am not to be a judge, but it is a problem
> for the end user.  There is no clear indication of who to point the
> "blame finger" toward.   Buyer Beware - real serial ports seem to
> cause few difficulties.  If you have a choice, use the native PC
> serial port rather than the USB to serial adapter.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 2/5/2011 10:54 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> Thanks for the input, Don.
>>
>> I deleted the old firmware file in my local folder, and reloaded just
>> the latest DSP files. Worked perfectly. I really don't think the USB
>> cable is the issue. Anyway, I'm a happy camper!
>>
>> Craig W6WL
>>
>> On 2/5/2011 7:07 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>>>  Don,
>>>
>>> I have trouble blaming the problem on the K3 when the real problem
>>> lies with the Operating System and properly operating drivers (or
>>> lack thereof) for the USB to serial adapters.
>>>
>>> Use of a desktop computer for the hamshack is quite desirable IMHO -
>>> mine sits under the desk and the monitor, keyboard and mouse takes
>>> up less space than a laptop.  If the particular desktop does not
>>> come with serial ports, there are cards available that will add
>>> native serial ports to a desktop.  Laptops are quite another story,
>>> although PCMCIA serial port cards are available and should be more
>>> reliable than USB to serial adapters.
>>>
>>> Desktop computers with serial ports are available at bargain prices
>>> in the off-lease category (I like the IBM off-lease, many of which
>>> have 2 serial ports).  Most are loaded with WinXPpro and cost less
>>> than $150, and are more than adequate for a dedicated ham-station
>>> computer.  Sure, you have to spend additional dollars for a monitor,
>>> but that is small change compared to laptop prices.  The flexibility
>>> offered by a desktop far exceeds the "convenience" of a laptop for
>>> ham use, and is much more reliable (a laptop is a "throw-away"
>>> device if it stops working).
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Don W3FPR
>>>
>>> On 2/5/2011 9:49 PM, don Swetzig wrote:
>>>> I needed to make a real rs232 cable to get mine to work 
>>>>
>>>> The usb adaptors don't work very well including the ones elecraft
>>>> sell.
>>>>
>>>> It's time to work on robustness on the loader instead on new features.
>>>>
>>>> This is a problem that will damage the K3 reputation if it is not
>>>> addressed.  As there are not many pc's that have the real
>>>> ports anymore.
>>>>
>>>> Don
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> KD8NNU
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my Palm Pre on the Now Network from Sprint
>>>> On Feb 5, 2011 8:28 PM,
>>>> [hidden email]<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>
>>>> Subject:     K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download
>>>>
>>>> Date:     Sat, 05 Feb 2011 18:21:05 -0800
>>>>
>>>> From: [hidden email]<[hidden email]>
>>>>
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I hope someone can help me as I tried to update the firmware onto
>>>> my K3
>>>>
>>>> this afternoon. I first tried it five times getting ERR DSE
>>>> E0000202 on
>>>>
>>>> the K3, and xE200006 on the K3Util screen with the details as "DSP1
>>>>
>>>> verification failed, and version verification number failed. Then I
>>>>
>>>> deleted the K3Util program, and connected an Ethernet cable to my
>>>>
>>>> laptop, then reloaded the K3Util software. Tried another five tines
>>>> with
>>>>
>>>> the same error results. I read all the notes online, and I'm stumped.
>>>>
>>>> All the other firmware loads fine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig W6WL
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Craig Smith
>> Craig W Smith Photography
>>
>> 831-423-5800 408-499-0864 (cell) 800-713-0864
>>
>> www.thephotoman.com  (Weddings)
>>
>> www.craigwsmithphotography.com  (Commercial)

--
Craig Smith
Craig W Smith Photography

831-423-5800 408-499-0864 (cell) 800-713-0864

www.thephotoman.com (Weddings)

www.craigwsmithphotography.com (Commercial)

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Re: Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

Bob - W6OPO
In reply to this post by Craig Smith-3
My first time FW upgrade failed too.  The problem?  I use Router a
virtual port defining piece of software microHAM uses for their
product's interfaces to such things as the microKEYER II.
 
In their manual is a warning in Yellow to not perform FW upgrades via
the microKEYER II interface which uses a port in their Router.  Indeed -
don't do it.  microHAM support told me the problem is the Router is
continually polling the radio and interferes with the download.  While
all other features and functions of Elecraft's Utility and Memory Editor
works fine, the FW download does not.
 
I have a desktop PC with no serial ports only lots of USB.  Elecraft
sells a very nice serial RS-232 to USB adapter cable with FTDI chip.
Using the FTDI driver to define a separate USB port as a COM port works
well.  I have also used Prolific drivers for converter cables using
Prolific protocol without any attention.  Both work really well.
 
It will/would be nice to have Elecraft provide a USB port in the radio
like some other manufacturers.  ICOM for instance - absolutely trouble
free and simple.  Copy a file to a thumb drive and stick it in the
radio's USB jack and press Upload.  Also in the case of ICOM's 7800 and
7700, you can plug a USB keyboard in and run RTTY or PSK - from the
keyboard.  No paddle needed.
 
Anyway - microHAM has excellent software and hardware but as they say,
do not attempt to download FW into any radio using an interface with
something like microKEYER II.  So when I want to perform a FW update I
unplug the microKEYER II originating DB-9 from the K3 and plug in the
separate USB/RS232 cable and perform the update.
 
73,
 
Bob - W6OPO
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Re: Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

Craig - AE6RR
Bob,

I had the same experience with my first K3 firmware upgrade.  I had the
radio connected to the microKEYER II in the normal operating configuration
and was trying out the utility, checking filter settings etc. and decided to
do a firmware upgrade.  I had forgotten about micrcoHAM's warning and
proceeded to click the upgrade button, there was no "Are You Sure?" warning
as Microsoft has trained us to expect, it just proceeded to turn the radio
into a brick.

After the thoughts of a road trip to Aptos went through my mind, I
remembered the warning, poked around in the manual and found the recovery
procedure.  I switched to a physical serial port on the PC and after a
couple of attempts managed to turn the brick back into a radio.

The radio queries can be disabled in the microHAM USB Device Router if you
go to the ports tab and click the SET button for the CAT port you will get a
new screen the has a check box for "Disable router queries".  If you are
brave, you could try this.  I am not sure if I am that brave.

It would be nice if the upgrade installation software was a bit more robust
and didn't just give up if it gets a bad record (the records do have
checksums or some other validity check, I hope).  If it would try again
after a bad record, it could probably recover.

73,
- Craig, AE6RR

K3 SN #4877

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob Lanning
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 10:58 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

My first time FW upgrade failed too.  The problem?  I use Router a
virtual port defining piece of software microHAM uses for their
product's interfaces to such things as the microKEYER II.
 
In their manual is a warning in Yellow to not perform FW upgrades via
the microKEYER II interface which uses a port in their Router.  Indeed -
don't do it.  microHAM support told me the problem is the Router is
continually polling the radio and interferes with the download.  While
all other features and functions of Elecraft's Utility and Memory Editor
works fine, the FW download does not.
 
I have a desktop PC with no serial ports only lots of USB.  Elecraft
sells a very nice serial RS-232 to USB adapter cable with FTDI chip.
Using the FTDI driver to define a separate USB port as a COM port works
well.  I have also used Prolific drivers for converter cables using
Prolific protocol without any attention.  Both work really well.
 
It will/would be nice to have Elecraft provide a USB port in the radio
like some other manufacturers.  ICOM for instance - absolutely trouble
free and simple.  Copy a file to a thumb drive and stick it in the
radio's USB jack and press Upload.  Also in the case of ICOM's 7800 and
7700, you can plug a USB keyboard in and run RTTY or PSK - from the
keyboard.  No paddle needed.
 
Anyway - microHAM has excellent software and hardware but as they say,
do not attempt to download FW into any radio using an interface with
something like microKEYER II.  So when I want to perform a FW update I
unplug the microKEYER II originating DB-9 from the K3 and plug in the
separate USB/RS232 cable and perform the update.
 
73,
 
Bob - W6OPO
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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Re: Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

>> The radio queries can be disabled in the microHAM USB Device
>> Router if you go to the ports tab and click the SET button for the
>> CAT port you will get a new screen the has a check box for "Disable
>> router queries". If you are brave, you could try this. I am not
>> sure if I am that brave.

"Disable Router queries" will not resolve the problem because Router
will immediately begin polling when the K3 Utility closes the port
for the "reboot" phase of the update.  It is theoretically possible
to set the radio type to "None" and do an update but you can not allow
Router or the microHAM keyer to reset (e.g. power must stay on) during
the "reboot" phase.

Because of the possibility to turning the radio - any radio - or the
microHAM interface into a brick by an improper update (or by buggy
software if microHAM were to allow something like the K3 Utility to
disable the keyer's normal operation), microHAM simply prohibits any
update through the keyer.

73,

    ... Joe Subich, W4TV
        microHAM America, LLC.
        http://www.microHAM-USA.com
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microHAM



On 2/6/2011 2:41 PM, Craig - AE6RR wrote:

> Bob,
>
> I had the same experience with my first K3 firmware upgrade.  I had the
> radio connected to the microKEYER II in the normal operating configuration
> and was trying out the utility, checking filter settings etc. and decided to
> do a firmware upgrade.  I had forgotten about micrcoHAM's warning and
> proceeded to click the upgrade button, there was no "Are You Sure?" warning
> as Microsoft has trained us to expect, it just proceeded to turn the radio
> into a brick.
>
> After the thoughts of a road trip to Aptos went through my mind, I
> remembered the warning, poked around in the manual and found the recovery
> procedure.  I switched to a physical serial port on the PC and after a
> couple of attempts managed to turn the brick back into a radio.
>
> The radio queries can be disabled in the microHAM USB Device Router if you
> go to the ports tab and click the SET button for the CAT port you will get a
> new screen the has a check box for "Disable router queries".  If you are
> brave, you could try this.  I am not sure if I am that brave.
>
> It would be nice if the upgrade installation software was a bit more robust
> and didn't just give up if it gets a bad record (the records do have
> checksums or some other validity check, I hope).  If it would try again
> after a bad record, it could probably recover.
>
> 73,
> - Craig, AE6RR
>
> K3 SN #4877
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob Lanning
> Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 10:58 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download
>
> My first time FW upgrade failed too.  The problem?  I use Router a
> virtual port defining piece of software microHAM uses for their
> product's interfaces to such things as the microKEYER II.
>
> In their manual is a warning in Yellow to not perform FW upgrades via
> the microKEYER II interface which uses a port in their Router.  Indeed -
> don't do it.  microHAM support told me the problem is the Router is
> continually polling the radio and interferes with the download.  While
> all other features and functions of Elecraft's Utility and Memory Editor
> works fine, the FW download does not.
>
> I have a desktop PC with no serial ports only lots of USB.  Elecraft
> sells a very nice serial RS-232 to USB adapter cable with FTDI chip.
> Using the FTDI driver to define a separate USB port as a COM port works
> well.  I have also used Prolific drivers for converter cables using
> Prolific protocol without any attention.  Both work really well.
>
> It will/would be nice to have Elecraft provide a USB port in the radio
> like some other manufacturers.  ICOM for instance - absolutely trouble
> free and simple.  Copy a file to a thumb drive and stick it in the
> radio's USB jack and press Upload.  Also in the case of ICOM's 7800 and
> 7700, you can plug a USB keyboard in and run RTTY or PSK - from the
> keyboard.  No paddle needed.
>
> Anyway - microHAM has excellent software and hardware but as they say,
> do not attempt to download FW into any radio using an interface with
> something like microKEYER II.  So when I want to perform a FW update I
> unplug the microKEYER II originating DB-9 from the K3 and plug in the
> separate USB/RS232 cable and perform the update.
>
> 73,
>
> Bob - W6OPO
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
--


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Re: Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

k6dgw
In reply to this post by AC7AC
On 2/6/2011 10:23 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> Good observation about the plumbing Lu. I'll remember that. Even though the
> K3 is an amazing bit of technology, sometimes I long for the rough
> simplicity of the homebrew station I started out with years ago, Hi!

I don't.  Right after I retired in 2000, and still had an HP-23 power
supply, I resurrected my 40m ARC-5 TX from the basement for SKN.  "This
will be fun and nostalgic," I said.  It was neither.  The rig loaded the
antenna fine, but that's where the "fine" ended.  Ignoring the three
times I got my hand or fingers across the key, making Q's was hugely
tough.  Radios have improved over the years, and I like it.

For the record, I run the K3 Utility on an XP laptop the local "computer
boys" built for me.  I use the USB/232 adapter I got from Elecraft.  I
have never [as in never ever, not even once] had a problem loading new
firmware.  The first time I used Dick's K3 Utility, I forged directly
into it, as we all usually do, and had a problem with finding the
firmware on the laptop once I downloaded it with my FTP Client.
Finally, I retreated to RTFM, and haven't had a problem with it since. :-)

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2011 Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2011
- www.cqp.org
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Re: Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

Craig - AE6RR
In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4
Joe,

Thanks for clarifying this and explaining the operation.

I now have a cable attached to the serial port on my computer that is my
spare or download cable.  I handle all of the normal radio communications
via my microKEYER interfaces (one dedicated to each radio).  I find this
very convenient for switching radios.  I set all of the microKEYERs to the
same CAT port (and any other ports in use) and then use presets to switch
radios.  My other software then doesn't know the difference; it just talks
to the same COM port which is now directed to the selected radio.  This
works well since my radios are all Elecraft and Kenwoods so the commands are
compatible.

I intend to stay out of the "brick" business!

73,
- Craig, AE6RR

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Subich, W4TV [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 11:57 AM
To: Craig - AE6RR
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download


>> The radio queries can be disabled in the microHAM USB Device
>> Router if you go to the ports tab and click the SET button for the
>> CAT port you will get a new screen the has a check box for "Disable
>> router queries". If you are brave, you could try this. I am not
>> sure if I am that brave.

"Disable Router queries" will not resolve the problem because Router
will immediately begin polling when the K3 Utility closes the port
for the "reboot" phase of the update.  It is theoretically possible
to set the radio type to "None" and do an update but you can not allow
Router or the microHAM keyer to reset (e.g. power must stay on) during
the "reboot" phase.

Because of the possibility to turning the radio - any radio - or the
microHAM interface into a brick by an improper update (or by buggy
software if microHAM were to allow something like the K3 Utility to
disable the keyer's normal operation), microHAM simply prohibits any
update through the keyer.

73,

    ... Joe Subich, W4TV
        microHAM America, LLC.
        http://www.microHAM-USA.com
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microHAM



On 2/6/2011 2:41 PM, Craig - AE6RR wrote:
> Bob,
>
> I had the same experience with my first K3 firmware upgrade.  I had the
> radio connected to the microKEYER II in the normal operating configuration
> and was trying out the utility, checking filter settings etc. and decided
to
> do a firmware upgrade.  I had forgotten about micrcoHAM's warning and
> proceeded to click the upgrade button, there was no "Are You Sure?"
warning

> as Microsoft has trained us to expect, it just proceeded to turn the radio
> into a brick.
>
> After the thoughts of a road trip to Aptos went through my mind, I
> remembered the warning, poked around in the manual and found the recovery
> procedure.  I switched to a physical serial port on the PC and after a
> couple of attempts managed to turn the brick back into a radio.
>
> The radio queries can be disabled in the microHAM USB Device Router if you
> go to the ports tab and click the SET button for the CAT port you will get
a
> new screen the has a check box for "Disable router queries".  If you are
> brave, you could try this.  I am not sure if I am that brave.
>
> It would be nice if the upgrade installation software was a bit more
robust

> and didn't just give up if it gets a bad record (the records do have
> checksums or some other validity check, I hope).  If it would try again
> after a bad record, it could probably recover.
>
> 73,
> - Craig, AE6RR
>
> K3 SN #4877
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob Lanning
> Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 10:58 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download
>
> My first time FW upgrade failed too.  The problem?  I use Router a
> virtual port defining piece of software microHAM uses for their
> product's interfaces to such things as the microKEYER II.
>
> In their manual is a warning in Yellow to not perform FW upgrades via
> the microKEYER II interface which uses a port in their Router.  Indeed -
> don't do it.  microHAM support told me the problem is the Router is
> continually polling the radio and interferes with the download.  While
> all other features and functions of Elecraft's Utility and Memory Editor
> works fine, the FW download does not.
>
> I have a desktop PC with no serial ports only lots of USB.  Elecraft
> sells a very nice serial RS-232 to USB adapter cable with FTDI chip.
> Using the FTDI driver to define a separate USB port as a COM port works
> well.  I have also used Prolific drivers for converter cables using
> Prolific protocol without any attention.  Both work really well.
>
> It will/would be nice to have Elecraft provide a USB port in the radio
> like some other manufacturers.  ICOM for instance - absolutely trouble
> free and simple.  Copy a file to a thumb drive and stick it in the
> radio's USB jack and press Upload.  Also in the case of ICOM's 7800 and
> 7700, you can plug a USB keyboard in and run RTTY or PSK - from the
> keyboard.  No paddle needed.
>
> Anyway - microHAM has excellent software and hardware but as they say,
> do not attempt to download FW into any radio using an interface with
> something like microKEYER II.  So when I want to perform a FW update I
> unplug the microKEYER II originating DB-9 from the K3 and plug in the
> separate USB/RS232 cable and perform the update.
>
> 73,
>
> Bob - W6OPO
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
--


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Re: Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

Don Wilhelm-4
In reply to this post by Craig - AE6RR
  Craig and all,

Dick has indicated several times that the firmware does have checking
data bits, and they are used for validity checks and as an indication
that the firmware downloads are successful.

What is happening in the discussion that has ensued is that the MicroHam
device is adding (or changing) bits in the stream of firmware data that
is being sent to the  K3.  Yes, when an incorrect write is detected by
K3 Utility, it will stop and indicate a failure,

Unfortunately, that corrupted data has already scrambled the K3's
"brain", and it cannot operate, so you have to follow the "Unplug the
power" recovery procedure and try again.

I do not know how any additional degree of "robustness" in K3 Utility
could correct for that condition.

For an analogy of what is happening, I think of a water pipe.  There is
a clean pump (akin to K3 Utility) that checks and puts clean water (the
firmware data bits) in the pipe.  Further down that pipe is an opening
(akin to the Microham) where dirt and other unwanted stuff is inserted.
  No way could one expect clean water out of the far end under that
situation - and it is not the pump's fault.

Bottom line - don't load firmware through a Microham device and expect
good results.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/6/2011 2:41 PM, Craig - AE6RR wrote:
>
> It would be nice if the upgrade installation software was a bit more robust
> and didn't just give up if it gets a bad record (the records do have
> checksums or some other validity check, I hope).  If it would try again
> after a bad record, it could probably recover.
>
> 73,
> - Craig, AE6RR
>
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Re: Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

Ross Primrose N4RP
On 2/6/11 3:36 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> I do not know how any additional degree of "robustness" in K3 Utility
> could correct for that condition.
>

Simple... Don't write ANYTHING to the K3 EEPROM (I assume) until the K3
has received the ENTIRE firmware file w/o errors. Blocks with errors can
always be resent....

73, Ross N4RP

--
FCC Section 97.313(a) “At all times, an amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications.”

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Re: Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

Dick Dievendorff
The PIC18F8722 microcontroller used has 128KB of flash program memory and a bit less than 4KB of RAM. Its a Harvard architecture machine, not the Von Neumann model. Your "simple" suggestion is infeasible. There is no place on chip to buffer the firmware in its entirety.

Dick, K6KR

On Feb 6, 2011, at 14:53, Ross Primrose N4RP <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2/6/11 3:36 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> I do not know how any additional degree of "robustness" in K3 Utility
>> could correct for that condition.
>>
>
> Simple... Don't write ANYTHING to the K3 EEPROM (I assume) until the K3
> has received the ENTIRE firmware file w/o errors. Blocks with errors can
> always be resent....
>
> 73, Ross N4RP
>
> --
> FCC Section 97.313(a) “At all times, an amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications.”
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Re: Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

Craig - AE6RR
Dick,

Would it be possible to check each record or block of data for validity
(checksum, CRC, etc.) and acknowledge (ACK) or request a resend (NAK) from
the PC before writing it to flash?  If a data block is corrupted a resend
could be quested multiple times before giving up, declaring an error and
"bricking" the radio.

Another option would be to validate the serial connection with some test
data before starting the actual download.

As a bare minimum, I would suggest a warning box that would popup when a
download is started.  

Something like:

"Do not attempt this with a microHAM USB interface or any other
non-compatible interface - Click OK to proceed".

I do highly commend Elecraft for including a "bootstrap loader" in the
firmware which allows the user to correct the problem without having to send
the radio back to the factory which is the case with many other upgradeable
products.

73,
- Craig, AE6RR

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dick Dievendorff
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 1:08 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Elecraft; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

The PIC18F8722 microcontroller used has 128KB of flash program memory and a
bit less than 4KB of RAM. Its a Harvard architecture machine, not the Von
Neumann model. Your "simple" suggestion is infeasible. There is no place on
chip to buffer the firmware in its entirety.

Dick, K6KR

On Feb 6, 2011, at 14:53, Ross Primrose N4RP <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2/6/11 3:36 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> I do not know how any additional degree of "robustness" in K3 Utility
>> could correct for that condition.
>>
>
> Simple... Don't write ANYTHING to the K3 EEPROM (I assume) until the K3
> has received the ENTIRE firmware file w/o errors. Blocks with errors can
> always be resent....
>
> 73, Ross N4RP
>
> --
> FCC Section 97.313(a) "At all times, an amateur station must use the
minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired
communications."
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Re: Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

Dick Dievendorff
We do check each block with a checksum. We do have a per block ACK. I can't tell if a Microham device us inline...



Dick

On Feb 6, 2011, at 15:43, "Craig - AE6RR" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dick,
>
> Would it be possible to check each record or block of data for validity
> (checksum, CRC, etc.) and acknowledge (ACK) or request a resend (NAK) from
> the PC before writing it to flash?  If a data block is corrupted a resend
> could be quested multiple times before giving up, declaring an error and
> "bricking" the radio.
>
> Another option would be to validate the serial connection with some test
> data before starting the actual download.
>
> As a bare minimum, I would suggest a warning box that would popup when a
> download is started.  
>
> Something like:
>
> "Do not attempt this with a microHAM USB interface or any other
> non-compatible interface - Click OK to proceed".
>
> I do highly commend Elecraft for including a "bootstrap loader" in the
> firmware which allows the user to correct the problem without having to send
> the radio back to the factory which is the case with many other upgradeable
> products.
>
> 73,
> - Craig, AE6RR
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dick Dievendorff
> Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 1:08 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: Elecraft; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download
>
> The PIC18F8722 microcontroller used has 128KB of flash program memory and a
> bit less than 4KB of RAM. Its a Harvard architecture machine, not the Von
> Neumann model. Your "simple" suggestion is infeasible. There is no place on
> chip to buffer the firmware in its entirety.
>
> Dick, K6KR
>
> On Feb 6, 2011, at 14:53, Ross Primrose N4RP <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 2/6/11 3:36 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>>> I do not know how any additional degree of "robustness" in K3 Utility
>>> could correct for that condition.
>>>
>>
>> Simple... Don't write ANYTHING to the K3 EEPROM (I assume) until the K3
>> has received the ENTIRE firmware file w/o errors. Blocks with errors can
>> always be resent....
>>
>> 73, Ross N4RP
>>
>> --
>> FCC Section 97.313(a) "At all times, an amateur station must use the
> minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired
> communications."
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Re: Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

ab2tc
Hi all,

I have loaded virtually every firmware version that ever came out without a single incident, using several different USB adapters (never had a real serial port with the K3) and several computers. So I don't have problem with this at all. With this said, it does appear that a few things could be improved when there *is* a problem with the communications. The idea of testing the serial communications before committing to the update is a good one. Also it does seem that the utility could be improved in it's ability to recover from errors and give more meaningful messages to the users. Bootloaders are inherently dumb and they need to be in order to keep them small. To expect it to be able to cope with "unexpected" commands is simply expecting too much.

AB2TC - Knut

PS. The PIC processor with 128kb of flash and 4kB of RAM, oboy that seems like a flashback to another century to me. I am amazed at the Elecraft programmers being able to cram the current functionality into this extremely limited space.

Dick Dievendorff wrote
We do check each block with a checksum. We do have a per block ACK. I can't tell if a Microham device us inline...



Dick

<snip>
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Re: Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

Mike WA8BXN
In reply to this post by Dick Dievendorff
>From what I have been reading about the protocol used, it seems it is not at
all robust. Someone else said this as well. The ACKs and NAKs are a good
start. These are at times being lost it appears. The utility should have a
timer that lets it resend a frame if there is not ACK or NAK that gets back
to the utility. If that is done, then each frame will also have to have a
sequence number so the radio can recognize a duplicate frame it has already
ACKed that got lost. Alternately, a load address for the data would do it by
just overwriting the same place with the resent data.
 
73 - Mike WA8BXN
 
 
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Re: Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

Dick Dievendorff
In reply to this post by Dick Dievendorff


Dick

On Feb 6, 2011, at 15:08, Dick Dievendorff <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The PIC18F8722 microcontroller used has 128KB of flash program memory and a bit less than 4KB of RAM. Its a Harvard architecture machine, not the Von Neumann model. Your "simple" suggestion is infeasible. There is no place on chip to buffer the firmware in its entirety.
>
> Dick, K6KR
>
> On Feb 6, 2011, at 14:53, Ross Primrose N4RP <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 2/6/11 3:36 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>>> I do not know how any additional degree of "robustness" in K3 Utility
>>> could correct for that condition.
>>>
>>
>> Simple... Don't write ANYTHING to the K3 EEPROM (I assume) until the K3
>> has received the ENTIRE firmware file w/o errors. Blocks with errors can
>> always be resent....
>>
>> 73, Ross N4RP
>>
>> --
>> FCC Section 97.313(a) “At all times, an amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications.”
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Re: Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

Dick Dievendorff
In reply to this post by ab2tc
The serial communications are tested before sending firmware. There is a per block checksum test and Ack. There is no on chip storage of sufficient to buffer very much firmware. The program store is 128KB and the available RAM is less than 4K.

I can work on the error messages, and specific suggestions are welcome. I'm perhaps too close to this or stayed too close to the early prototype's
message text.

73 de Dick, K6KR

On Feb 6, 2011, at 16:27, ab2tc <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi all,
>
> I have loaded virtually every firmware version that ever came out without a
> single incident, using several different USB adapters (never had a real
> serial port with the K3) and several computers. So I don't have problem with
> this at all. With this said, it does appear that a few things could be
> improved when there *is* a problem with the communications. The idea of
> testing the serial communications before committing to the update is a good
> one. Also it does seem that the utility could be improved in it's ability to
> recover from errors and give more meaningful messages to the users.
> Bootloaders are inherently dumb and they need to be in order to keep them
> small. To expect it to be able to cope with "unexpected" commands is simply
> expecting too much.
>
> AB2TC - Knut
>
> PS. The PIC processor with 128kb of flash and 4kB of RAM, oboy that seems
> like a flashback to another century to me. I am amazed at the Elecraft
> programmers being able to cram the current functionality into this extremely
> limited space.
>
>
> Dick Dievendorff wrote:
>>
>> We do check each block with a checksum. We do have a per block ACK. I
>> can't tell if a Microham device us inline...
>>
>>
>>
>> Dick
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Fwd-K3-Failed-DSP-Firmware-Download-tp5996916p5998672.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Re: Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

Gary Gregory
Hmmm..seems like this failed FW load is caused by operator
forgetfullness..don't think that's a word...by owners of Microham
products.

I sure don't need "windoze' to remind me to turn something off or
check some other device is present and running etc, etc, etc.

Maybe I live in the dark ages in Oz but never felt a need to purchase
"other' devices to use with my K3 either.

Maybe Elecraft could include a large sheet of paper in each K3
shipment that states the warning for Microham products when wanting to
do a download but please no message on the LCD of the K3 and no more
Windoze warnings either.

Never had an issue with FW downloads with either my PC or eeC PC
netbook both running XP and pretty much all have been from the ftp
site and Beta versions..YMMV

73's
Gary

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Dick Dievendorff <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The serial communications are tested before sending firmware. There is a per block checksum test and Ack. There is no on chip storage of sufficient to buffer very much firmware. The program store is 128KB and the available RAM is less than 4K.
>
> I can work on the error messages, and specific suggestions are welcome. I'm perhaps too close to this or stayed too close to the early prototype's
> message text.
>
> 73 de Dick, K6KR
>
> On Feb 6, 2011, at 16:27, ab2tc <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I have loaded virtually every firmware version that ever came out without a
>> single incident, using several different USB adapters (never had a real
>> serial port with the K3) and several computers. So I don't have problem with
>> this at all. With this said, it does appear that a few things could be
>> improved when there *is* a problem with the communications. The idea of
>> testing the serial communications before committing to the update is a good
>> one. Also it does seem that the utility could be improved in it's ability to
>> recover from errors and give more meaningful messages to the users.
>> Bootloaders are inherently dumb and they need to be in order to keep them
>> small. To expect it to be able to cope with "unexpected" commands is simply
>> expecting too much.
>>
>> AB2TC - Knut
>>
>> PS. The PIC processor with 128kb of flash and 4kB of RAM, oboy that seems
>> like a flashback to another century to me. I am amazed at the Elecraft
>> programmers being able to cram the current functionality into this extremely
>> limited space.
>>
>>
>> Dick Dievendorff wrote:
>>>
>>> We do check each block with a checksum. We do have a per block ACK. I
>>> can't tell if a Microham device us inline...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dick
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Fwd-K3-Failed-DSP-Firmware-Download-tp5996916p5998672.html
>> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
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>



--
Gary
VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile
http://www.qsl.net/vk4fd/
K3 #679
For everything else there's Mastercard!!!
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Re: Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

GW0ETF
In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
In the >3 years of running my K3 I can only remember once having to do a forced reload and it was completely straightforward.....don't understand the stress this seems to generate.

Since moving to a netbook recently I've been rebooting my desktop every time I wanted to do a firmware upload using a hardware serial port; but I do remember in the past uploading through my Microham CW Keyer via Router with minimal fuss (though can't remember the reason for the previous forced upload...!). So when I needed to upgrade from v4.22 a couple of days ago I thought I'd try the Router again and it went without a hitch and saved all the booting up and swapping cables in the spider infested mess at the back of my underdesk PC.

Ofcourse I went into the set up on Router and set to 'No Radio' and 'Disable Router Queries'. You can if you wish store these settings under separate profiles for a single click setup. If it doesn't work and you end up with a 'brick' I can always switch on my desktop PC and do a forced upload via rs232 - what's the panic?

73,

Stewart Rolfe, GW0ETF

Don Wilhelm-4 wrote
 
Bottom line - don't load firmware through a Microham device and expect
good results.

73,
Don W3FPR
r
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Re: Fwd: K3 Failed DSP Firmware Download

Jack Brabham KZ5A
In reply to this post by Dick Dievendorff
This discussion of the firmware updating process brings to mind the
phrase "under-engineered".

Too bad this problem doesn't also cause a short first "dit" at 80 wpm,
in which case I'm sure it's remedy would be a top priority for Elecraft.


73 Jack KZ5A



On 2/6/2011 6:02 PM, Dick Dievendorff wrote:

> The serial communications are tested before sending firmware. There is a per block checksum test and Ack. There is no on chip storage of sufficient to buffer very much firmware. The program store is 128KB and the available RAM is less than 4K.
>
> I can work on the error messages, and specific suggestions are welcome. I'm perhaps too close to this or stayed too close to the early prototype's
> message text.
>
> 73 de Dick, K6KR
>
> On Feb 6, 2011, at 16:27, ab2tc<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I have loaded virtually every firmware version that ever came out without a
>> single incident, using several different USB adapters (never had a real
>> serial port with the K3) and several computers. So I don't have problem with
>> this at all. With this said, it does appear that a few things could be
>> improved when there *is* a problem with the communications. The idea of
>> testing the serial communications before committing to the update is a good
>> one. Also it does seem that the utility could be improved in it's ability to
>> recover from errors and give more meaningful messages to the users.
>> Bootloaders are inherently dumb and they need to be in order to keep them
>> small. To expect it to be able to cope with "unexpected" commands is simply
>> expecting too much.
>>
>> AB2TC - Knut
>>
>> PS. The PIC processor with 128kb of flash and 4kB of RAM, oboy that seems
>> like a flashback to another century to me. I am amazed at the Elecraft
>> programmers being able to cram the current functionality into this extremely
>> limited space.
>>
>>
>> Dick Dievendorff wrote:
>>> We do check each block with a checksum. We do have a per block ACK. I
>>> can't tell if a Microham device us inline...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dick
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Fwd-K3-Failed-DSP-Firmware-Download-tp5996916p5998672.html
>> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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12