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Help with K3S upgrades

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hbjr

Help with K3S upgrades

I have just installed the 1 PPM TXCO in my K3S. I bought the K3S last
October as a kit and have installed many options since then.

One thing I'm concerned with is the reference calibration. Without a good
frequency counter, I'm using WWV on 15Mhz and using beat cancelation. My
ears are pretty good, but no match for a good frequency counter.

Any guys in the NW GA area (Tennessee, Alabama, and North Carolina area
really) that would be willing to help me set that reference calibration with
a good counter? I'd be willing to pay you for your time!

I guess I could send the rig back to California, I just don't want to be
without it for a several weeks.

Any takers?

Hank
K4HYJ

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Grant Youngman-2

Re: Help with K3S upgrades

What are you going to count? Beats?

Doing it by ear will be fine. There’s certainly no reason to send the radio to California.

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091 KX3 #8342

>
> One thing I'm concerned with is the reference calibration. Without a good
> frequency counter, I'm using WWV on 15Mhz and using beat cancelation. My
> ears are pretty good, but no match for a good frequency counter.
>

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Don Wilhelm

Re: Help with K3S upgrades

In reply to this post by hbjr

Hank,

You don't need a highly accurate frequency counter. You can get closer
with the beat note method.

You can use an audio spectrum analyzer (like Spectrogram or SpectrumLab)
running on your computer and the K3S rear headphone jack connected to
your soundcard Line In.

That will give you a visual display. When you turn on SPOT, if the two
audio frequencies are far enough apart, you will see two both of them.
When both frequencies are quite close, they will appear as one signal.
When they are VERY close, you will see the "signal" begin to oscillate
in amplitude - when that oscillation slows to zero, that is the beat
point you are seeking. In practice it is difficult to get it to exactly
zero, but get it as slow as possible - one or two oscillations each
minute is practical using that method.

If you need Spectrogram (Windows application), go to my website
www.w3fpr.com and scroll near the bottom of the opening page to find the
links. Those are internal links on my website, and the files have been
thoroughly scrubbed for virus - although Norton does not like them
because they do not have a large enough user list for that application.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 5/25/2019 1:23 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> I have just installed the 1 PPM TXCO in my K3S. I bought the K3S last
> October as a kit and have installed many options since then.
>
> One thing I'm concerned with is the reference calibration. Without a good
> frequency counter, I'm using WWV on 15Mhz and using beat cancelation. My
> ears are pretty good, but no match for a good frequency counter.
>
> Any guys in the NW GA area (Tennessee, Alabama, and North Carolina area
> really) that would be willing to help me set that reference calibration with
> a good counter? I'd be willing to pay you for your time!
>

Rick WA6NHC-2

Re: Help with K3S upgrades

By ear is very close but if you already have WSJT-X, there is a calibrate mode for the last few Hertz.

Rick WA6NHC

Smell Czech correction happen

> On May 25, 2019, at 11:08 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hank,
>
> You don't need a highly accurate frequency counter. You can get closer with the beat note method.
>
> You can use an audio spectrum analyzer (like Spectrogram or SpectrumLab) running on your computer and the K3S rear headphone jack connected to your soundcard Line In.
>
> That will give you a visual display. When you turn on SPOT, if the two audio frequencies are far enough apart, you will see two both of them.
> When both frequencies are quite close, they will appear as one signal.
> When they are VERY close, you will see the "signal" begin to oscillate in amplitude - when that oscillation slows to zero, that is the beat point you are seeking. In practice it is difficult to get it to exactly zero, but get it as slow as possible - one or two oscillations each minute is practical using that method.
>
> If you need Spectrogram (Windows application), go to my website www.w3fpr.com and scroll near the bottom of the opening page to find the links. Those are internal links on my website, and the files have been thoroughly scrubbed for virus - although Norton does not like them because they do not have a large enough user list for that application.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>> On 5/25/2019 1:23 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> I have just installed the 1 PPM TXCO in my K3S. I bought the K3S last
>> October as a kit and have installed many options since then.
>> One thing I'm concerned with is the reference calibration. Without a good
>> frequency counter, I'm using WWV on 15Mhz and using beat cancelation. My
>> ears are pretty good, but no match for a good frequency counter.
>> Any guys in the NW GA area (Tennessee, Alabama, and North Carolina area
>> really) that would be willing to help me set that reference calibration with
>> a good counter? I'd be willing to pay you for your time!
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Help with K3S upgrades

Yes that is correct.........but one needs to make sure the sound card
calibration is correct.

I prefer to use CW mode with CWT active .   Tune the radio to one of the
WWV frequencies. Thn press and release SPOT. This will match the
sidetone to the WWV carrier and adjust the radio to the correct
frequency. If for example, one tunes to 15.000.000 and presses SPOT
the radio may then move to 15.000.002. If so, adjust the Ref Cal down
about 3 or 4 Hz. And do the procedure again. It will take 3 or 4 times
and adjustments to get the radio "dead nuts on".   Once done, then tune
up from WWV or down from WWV by 10 to 20 Hz and press SPOT again. The
radio should come to 15.000.000.   Thus no listening, no zero beating,
no computer, no external software is needed. Everything is referenced
to the internal Reference. This also assures the sidetone frequency is
accurate at the user selected frequency.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 5/25/2019 1:39 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) wrote:

> By ear is very close but if you already have WSJT-X, there is a calibrate mode for the last few Hertz.
>
> Rick WA6NHC
>
> Smell Czech correction happen
>
>> On May 25, 2019, at 11:08 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hank,
>>
>> You don't need a highly accurate frequency counter. You can get closer with the beat note method.
>>
>> You can use an audio spectrum analyzer (like Spectrogram or SpectrumLab) running on your computer and the K3S rear headphone jack connected to your soundcard Line In.
>>
>> That will give you a visual display. When you turn on SPOT, if the two audio frequencies are far enough apart, you will see two both of them.
>> When both frequencies are quite close, they will appear as one signal.
>> When they are VERY close, you will see the "signal" begin to oscillate in amplitude - when that oscillation slows to zero, that is the beat point you are seeking. In practice it is difficult to get it to exactly zero, but get it as slow as possible - one or two oscillations each minute is practical using that method.
>>
>> If you need Spectrogram (Windows application), go to my website www.w3fpr.com and scroll near the bottom of the opening page to find the links. Those are internal links on my website, and the files have been thoroughly scrubbed for virus - although Norton does not like them because they do not have a large enough user list for that application.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>>> On 5/25/2019 1:23 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>> I have just installed the 1 PPM TXCO in my K3S. I bought the K3S last
>>> October as a kit and have installed many options since then.
>>> One thing I'm concerned with is the reference calibration. Without a good
>>> frequency counter, I'm using WWV on 15Mhz and using beat cancelation. My
>>> ears are pretty good, but no match for a good frequency counter.
>>> Any guys in the NW GA area (Tennessee, Alabama, and North Carolina area
>>> really) that would be willing to help me set that reference calibration with
>>> a good counter? I'd be willing to pay you for your time!
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

W2xj

Re: Help with K3S upgrades

In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC-2

Using WWV as a reference for precision frequency calibration is a bad idea. Propagation creates doppler effect. WWVB is better but still not perfect. A cheap GPS reference is the best (but still not perfect) option.

Sent from my iPad

> On May 25, 2019, at 2:39 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> By ear is very close but if you already have WSJT-X, there is a calibrate mode for the last few Hertz.
>
> Rick WA6NHC
>
> Smell Czech correction happen
>
>> On May 25, 2019, at 11:08 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hank,
>>
>> You don't need a highly accurate frequency counter. You can get closer with the beat note method.
>>
>> You can use an audio spectrum analyzer (like Spectrogram or SpectrumLab) running on your computer and the K3S rear headphone jack connected to your soundcard Line In.
>>
>> That will give you a visual display. When you turn on SPOT, if the two audio frequencies are far enough apart, you will see two both of them.
>> When both frequencies are quite close, they will appear as one signal.
>> When they are VERY close, you will see the "signal" begin to oscillate in amplitude - when that oscillation slows to zero, that is the beat point you are seeking. In practice it is difficult to get it to exactly zero, but get it as slow as possible - one or two oscillations each minute is practical using that method.
>>
>> If you need Spectrogram (Windows application), go to my website www.w3fpr.com and scroll near the bottom of the opening page to find the links. Those are internal links on my website, and the files have been thoroughly scrubbed for virus - although Norton does not like them because they do not have a large enough user list for that application.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>>> On 5/25/2019 1:23 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>> I have just installed the 1 PPM TXCO in my K3S. I bought the K3S last
>>> October as a kit and have installed many options since then.
>>> One thing I'm concerned with is the reference calibration. Without a good
>>> frequency counter, I'm using WWV on 15Mhz and using beat cancelation. My
>>> ears are pretty good, but no match for a good frequency counter.
>>> Any guys in the NW GA area (Tennessee, Alabama, and North Carolina area
>>> really) that would be willing to help me set that reference calibration with
>>> a good counter? I'd be willing to pay you for your time!
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Rick WA6NHC-2

Re: Help with K3S upgrades

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

On 5/25/2019 12:16 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
> Yes that is correct.........but one needs to make sure the sound card
> calibration is correct.
>
>

By the WWV method, I can get the (out of phase) WOW to about 1 every
four or five seconds; pretty durned close (enough).

With the software approach, any sound card error (which can vary a lot)
is corrected so any software using it, is dead on.

Bottom line is that unless you're attempting the ARRL FMT, a few hertz
won't be noticed by most; aging ears just aren't that good a test and
most software isn't that critical either.

Rick nhc

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hbjr

Re: Help with K3S upgrades

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Gentlemen…
Thank you for your help!!

I tried both Bob and Don’s method after letting the K3S warm up for about 30 minutes tuned into a SW broadcast.

After using Bob’s CWT method on 20 Mhz (conditions finally improved enough to get a good S9+ signal), I could tune to any strong broadcast signal and use the CWT and SPOT function and the frequency display would be perfect. Tuning 50 Hz away – either side – and pressing SPOT would bring the frequency back to the correct frequency.

I tried Don’s method using. I regularly check my soundcard calibration using FLDIGI’s method. I’m using the Timewave PK-232sc+ for a soundcard. It is very stable – checking it today it required no tweaking. After running the spectrum analyzer, the tuning was dead-on as far as the waterfall showed.

Both great ideas!!!! Thanks again for all of the replies. I learned more about my radio today!

Hank
K4HYJ
K3S, P3, KX3

From: Bob McGraw K4TAX
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2019 3:19 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Help with K3S upgrades

Yes that is correct.........but one needs to make sure the sound card
calibration is correct.

I prefer to use CW mode with CWT active .   Tune the radio to one of the
WWV frequencies. Thn press and release SPOT. This will match the
sidetone to the WWV carrier and adjust the radio to the correct
frequency. If for example, one tunes to 15.000.000 and presses SPOT
the radio may then move to 15.000.002. If so, adjust the Ref Cal down
about 3 or 4 Hz. And do the procedure again. It will take 3 or 4 times
and adjustments to get the radio "dead nuts on".   Once done, then tune
up from WWV or down from WWV by 10 to 20 Hz and press SPOT again. The
radio should come to 15.000.000.   Thus no listening, no zero beating,
no computer, no external software is needed. Everything is referenced
to the internal Reference. This also assures the sidetone frequency is
accurate at the user selected frequency.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 5/25/2019 1:39 PM, Rick Bates (WA6NHC) wrote:

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Help with K3S upgrades

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Glad you found the information of assistance.    I suggest a bit longer
warm up than 30 minutes, but for starters, 30 minutes is OK.   I usually
go for 1 hr to 2 hrs in a temperature stable environment.
But.......that's just me.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 5/25/2019 3:19 PM, HB wrote:

> Gentlemen…
> Thank you for your help!!
>
> I tried both Bob and Don’s method after letting the K3S warm up for about 30 minutes tuned into a SW broadcast.
>
> After using Bob’s CWT method on 20 Mhz (conditions finally improved enough to get a good S9+ signal), I could tune to any strong broadcast signal and use the CWT and SPOT function and the frequency display would be perfect. Tuning 50 Hz away – either side – and pressing SPOT would bring the frequency back to the correct frequency.
>
> I tried Don’s method using. I regularly check my soundcard calibration using FLDIGI’s method. I’m using the Timewave PK-232sc+ for a soundcard. It is very stable – checking it today it required no tweaking. After running the spectrum analyzer, the tuning was dead-on as far as the waterfall showed.
>
> Both great ideas!!!! Thanks again for all of the replies. I learned more about my radio today!
>
> Hank
> K4HYJ
> K3S, P3, KX3
>

Elecraft mailing list

Re: Help with K3S upgrades

Agreed. I've have the external ref module which actually measures the
TCXO frequency and on my K3 the drift is pretty close to over after 60
minutes. I've tracked it all the way to four hours. It is useful to keep
an eye on the front panel temp (DISP - FP). The TXCO is located in close
order with the front panel and that influences the drift. Mine usually
tops out at 37 to 39C.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 25/05/2019 17:24, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
> Glad you found the information of assistance. I suggest a bit longer
> warm up than 30 minutes, but for starters, 30 minutes is OK. I usually
> go for 1 hr to 2 hrs in a temperature stable environment.
> But.......that's just me.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
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hbjr

Re: Help with K3S upgrades

Good advice!!

I'll redo the procedure after the radio has been in use for an hour. I don't usually have the LCD illuminated because of the lighting at my desk - does the display contribute that much heat?

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Mike Harris via Elecraft
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2019 6:10 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Help with K3S upgrades

Agreed. I've have the external ref module which actually measures the TCXO frequency and on my K3 the drift is pretty close to over after 60 minutes. I've tracked it all the way to four hours. It is useful to keep an eye on the front panel temp (DISP - FP). The TXCO is located in close order with the front panel and that influences the drift. Mine usually tops out at 37 to 39C.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 25/05/2019 17:24, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
> Glad you found the information of assistance. I suggest a bit
> longer warm up than 30 minutes, but for starters, 30 minutes is OK.
> I usually go for 1 hr to 2 hrs in a temperature stable environment.
> But.......that's just me.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
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Edward R Cole

Re: Help with K3S upgrades

In reply to this post by hbjr

(Sorry but could not resist)

I have my K3 with TCXO03 and EXREF referenced to 10-MHz (OCXO +/- 5
E-12) and check it with my EIP538 Counter with ext ref to a +/- 5
E-11 Rubidium.
Then transmit and check frequency - done! At 28-MHz I am usually
within 2-Hz (and obviously that gets better at lower frequencies).
http://www.kl7uw.com/Rubidium.htm
http://www.kl7uw.com/K3EXREF.htm

WWV signal not strong enough or reliable, here. Rubidium only beat
by GPSDO as reference.

Not your usual HF station equipment, but then I mostly do VHF - mw.

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
[hidden email]

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