How far can the KPA1500 amp be from the PS?

[Edward A. Dauer]

The KPA1500 Manual states that “the power supply can be operated remotely” and that the supplied cables are 66 inches long.  It does not say how far apart, beyond the 66 inches, the PS and the amp can be without affecting performance or creating other issues.  

Does anyone know?  There are apparently three cables – the main HV, the 15-pin control, and the 12VDC phono plug cable for remote turn-on of the amp.

I am thinking about buying a KPA1500 but may have trouble bringing 220 VAC into the shack.  One electrician I hired long ago to look at the question told me it could not be done in an aesthetically acceptable way given the nature of the construction of the basement walls where the station is.  That's why I bought the KPA500 rather than a KW amp at the time. There is a 220 VAC outlet in another room on another floor of the house, which might allow me to lay some long cables while I am trying to figure out how to get 220 into the shack.  It is used to power the cook-top so the current capacity is likely sufficient - which I check by looking at the breakers.

The tripping hazard of doing this might itself be unacceptable, but I’d like to think about it.  The other possibility would be using a 220 VAC extension cord and locating the PS in the shack itself, but that seems even more dangerous . . .

Thoughts, anyone?

Thanks, as always,

Ted, KN1CBR            

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[Dave AD6A]

Why not just use the amp as-is near the 220V outlet and run longer RF coax cables to the amp from your operating position?

Dave
AD6A

Sent from my  iPhone X

On Apr 28, 2018, at 6:54 AM, Dauer, Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:

The KPA1500 Manual states that “the power supply can be operated remotely” and that the supplied cables are 66 inches long.  It does not say how far apart, beyond the 66 inches, the PS and the amp can be without affecting performance or creating other issues.  

Does anyone know?  There are apparently three cables – the main HV, the 15-pin control, and the 12VDC phono plug cable for remote turn-on of the amp.

I am thinking about buying a KPA1500 but may have trouble bringing 220 VAC into the shack.  One electrician I hired long ago to look at the question told me it could not be done in an aesthetically acceptable way given the nature of the construction of the basement walls where the station is.  That's why I bought the KPA500 rather than a KW amp at the time. There is a 220 VAC outlet in another room on another floor of the house, which might allow me to lay some long cables while I am trying to figure out how to get 220 into the shack.  It is used to power the cook-top so the current capacity is likely sufficient - which I check by looking at the breakers.

The tripping hazard of doing this might itself be unacceptable, but I’d like to think about it.  The other possibility would be using a 220 VAC extension cord and locating the PS in the shack itself, but that seems even more dangerous . . .

Thoughts, anyone?

Thanks, as always,

Ted, KN1CBR            

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[Don Wilhelm]

Ted,

I would opt for bring the 220 line into the shack.
Ask your electrician about using a receptacle mounted flush on the
floor.  You have likely seen them used in commercial buildings -
conference rooms and other places - the cover plate is usually brass
with a "door" to expose the receptacle itself.  It makes an
aesthetically pleasing installation.

I would not think you would want to extend the K3 to KPA1500 cables very
far.  My guess is that double the stock length would be as far as you
should consider.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/28/2018 9:54 AM, Dauer, Edward wrote:
> The KPA1500 Manual states that “the power supply can be operated remotely” and that the supplied cables are 66 inches long.  It does not say how far apart, beyond the 66 inches, the PS and the amp can be without affecting performance or creating other issues.
>
> Does anyone know?  There are apparently three cables – the main HV, the 15-pin control, and the 12VDC phono plug cable for remote turn-on of the amp.
>
> I am thinking about buying a KPA1500 but may have trouble bringing 220 VAC into the shack.  One electrician I hired long ago to look at the question told me it could not be done in an aesthetically acceptable way given the nature of the construction of the basement walls where the station is.  That's why I bought the KPA500 rather than a KW amp at the time. There is a 220 VAC outlet in another room on another floor of the house, which might allow me to lay some long cables while I am trying to figure out how to get 220 into the shack.  It is used to power the cook-top so the current capacity is likely sufficient - which I check by looking at the breakers.
>
> The tripping hazard of doing this might itself be unacceptable, but I’d like to think about it.  The other possibility would be using a 220 VAC extension cord and locating the PS in the shack itself, but that seems even more dangerous . . .
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[Edward A. Dauer]

Placing both PS and amp where the 220 VAC outlet is accessible is possible; but then I wouldn't be able to see the amp while operating, which I would like to do.  Wouldn't feel comfortable with a 1500 watt amp running way out of sight.  It would also then be in the kitchen on a floor above.  Not aesthetically the best that way, either.

As I described in reply to one other suggestion:

The "shack" is a spare bedroom in the lowest (of three) level of the house, which because it is built into a hillside and therefore half of it is below grade, has 12 inch concrete walls and a six inch (as I remember it) concrete floor covered only with a carpet and carpet pad.  The ceiling of that room is finished as is the entire interior.  The problem with snaking a line through the walls from the distribution box which is on a deck above ground level is that the entire space between the inside side of the concrete and the drywall is filled with cellular foam insulation.  It was, when we had it built, the recommended way to go for the mountain climate.  I did think to have a conduit put through the wall to allow antenna feedline coax to go through; but the electrician who was there said there is now no way to get a 220 line through the walls without major destruction.  I might bring it overhead (between the finished ceiling of the lower level and the floor of the next level up) but then to get it down to a usable level in the "shack" would require a conduit running down the inside wall surface.  That may be what I will have to do . . .

Or maybe Tesla's idea could be resurrected -- a big inductor inside and a transmitting power source out in the yard. I believe the Wardenclyffe Tower was originally planned for Colorado Springs, only 40 miles from the operating QTH.  Some parts might still be available.

Any other ideas from those who know about these sorts of things?

Tnx,

Ted, KN1CBR

On 4/28/18, 8:55 AM, "Dave AD6A" <[hidden email]> wrote:

    Why not just use the amp as-is near the 220V outlet and run longer RF coax cables to the amp from your operating position?
   
    Dave
    AD6A
   
    Sent from my  iPhone X
   
    On Apr 28, 2018, at 6:54 AM, Dauer, Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:
   
    The KPA1500 Manual states that “the power supply can be operated remotely” and that the supplied cables are 66 inches long.  It does not say how far apart, beyond the 66 inches, the PS and the amp can be without affecting performance or creating other issues.  
   
    Does anyone know?  There are apparently three cables – the main HV, the 15-pin control, and the 12VDC phono plug cable for remote turn-on of the amp.
   
    Thoughts, anyone?
   
    Thanks, as always,
   
    Ted, KN1CBR            
   
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[Jim Brown-10]

On 4/28/2018 11:08 AM, Dauer, Edward wrote:
> I might bring it overhead (between the finished ceiling of the lower level and the floor of the next level up) but then to get it down to a usable level in the "shack" would require a conduit running down the inside wall surface.  That may be what I will have to do . . .

Hi Ted,

This sounds reasonable, but by all means, let your electrician advise
you about how to run the line -- that's part of what good electricians
are good at. :)

I will add this, which I consider very important. Have him pull in at
least one 120V circuit with #10 conductors and the 240V circuit. Inside
the shack, install two 240V/20A outlets and multiple 120V/20A outlets.
These outlets are for station equipment only. It is critical that their
green wires be bonded together IN THE SHACK. An easy way to do this is
to put the wiring inside the shack in steel conduit (EMT) and use
off-the-shelf steel backboxes. Let your electrician tell you local code
requirements for wiring back to the panel.

20A breakers are no more expensive than 15A breakers, #10 wire DOES cost
more, but it minimizes IR drop, improving voltage regulation. The
advantage of using 20A breakers is that you can use 20A outlets, which
are downward compatible with 15A plugs. Do NOT use appliance-style
outlets for the 240V circuit -- instead use the same style of outlet
used for 120V circuits, but with the pin configuration for 240V/20A.
This is what I did in my shack, except that I have two duplex 240V 20A
outlets in a quad box and four quad boxes with 120V outlets. All the
120V outlets are on a single circuit.

FWIW, a single 20A 120V circuit is more than enough to handle all the
radio (and computer) gear in an SO2R ham station, even with two 500W
amps (as long as they don't transmit at the same time).

While what Clay Autrey has advised is certainly not wrong, it may be
overkill (and more expensive). Let your electrician advise you on this
-- depending on the difficulties associated with the cable run, one or
the other may have a cost advantage.

73, Jim K9YC

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[donovanf]

Use metallic or nonmetallic cable raceway to run the wire on the wall.
Its available in many different styles and colors


73
Frank
W3LPL





----- Original Message -----

From: "Edward Dauer" <[hidden email]>
To: "Dave AD6A" <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2018 6:08:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] How far can the KPA1500 amp be from the PS?

Placing both PS and amp where the 220 VAC outlet is accessible is possible; but then I wouldn't be able to see the amp while operating, which I would like to do. Wouldn't feel comfortable with a 1500 watt amp running way out of sight. It would also then be in the kitchen on a floor above. Not aesthetically the best that way, either.

As I described in reply to one other suggestion:

The "shack" is a spare bedroom in the lowest (of three) level of the house, which because it is built into a hillside and therefore half of it is below grade, has 12 inch concrete walls and a six inch (as I remember it) concrete floor covered only with a carpet and carpet pad. The ceiling of that room is finished as is the entire interior. The problem with snaking a line through the walls from the distribution box which is on a deck above ground level is that the entire space between the inside side of the concrete and the drywall is filled with cellular foam insulation. It was, when we had it built, the recommended way to go for the mountain climate. I did think to have a conduit put through the wall to allow antenna feedline coax to go through; but the electrician who was there said there is now no way to get a 220 line through the walls without major destruction. I might bring it overhead (between the finished ceiling of the lower level and the floor of the next level up) but then to get it down to a usable level in the "shack" would require a conduit running down the inside wall surface. That may be what I will have to do . . .

Or maybe Tesla's idea could be resurrected -- a big inductor inside and a transmitting power source out in the yard. I believe the Wardenclyffe Tower was originally planned for Colorado Springs, only 40 miles from the operating QTH. Some parts might still be available.

Any other ideas from those who know about these sorts of things?

Tnx,

Ted, KN1CBR

On 4/28/18, 8:55 AM, "Dave AD6A" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Why not just use the amp as-is near the 220V outlet and run longer RF coax cables to the amp from your operating position?

Dave
AD6A

Sent from my  iPhone X

On Apr 28, 2018, at 6:54 AM, Dauer, Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:

The KPA1500 Manual states that “the power supply can be operated remotely” and that the supplied cables are 66 inches long. It does not say how far apart, beyond the 66 inches, the PS and the amp can be without affecting performance or creating other issues.

Does anyone know? There are apparently three cables – the main HV, the 15-pin control, and the 12VDC phono plug cable for remote turn-on of the amp.

Thoughts, anyone?

Thanks, as always,

Ted, KN1CBR

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[Mark Goldberg]

On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Dauer, Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Placing both PS and amp where the 220 VAC outlet is accessible is
> possible; but then I wouldn't be able to see the amp while operating, which
> I would like to do.  Wouldn't feel comfortable with a 1500 watt amp running
> way out of sight.  It would also then be in the kitchen on a floor above.
> Not aesthetically the best that way, either.


Due to some temporary relocation of my ham shack for a home refurbish, I am
using my KPA500 remotely with the KPA500 remote software server running on
a spare netbook near the amp, and the client running on a computer near the
rig. There is one 100 ft long RG214 Coax between the KPA500 and the rig for
RF and one 100 ft small coax with RCA connectors between them for PTT. The
amp and autotuner are at the antenna feed and grounded well. The rig away
on the other side of the house not so well RF grounded, but there is no RFI
so far. That enables me to see the KPA500 status and change the band on the
PC in the shack. They don't yet seem to have the remote software for the
KPA1500 yet, but it is supposed to be coming.

I would probably accept visible conduit to run power if you can't run it in
the walls. As part of the refurbish, drywall was taken out and replaced and
the texture matched so new plumbing and electrical could go in.  They also
replaced insulation. That worked out well, but it was expensive. There is
not really any such thing as can't if you have deep enough pockets!

73,

Mark
W7MLG
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[Edward A. Dauer]

Thanks for the ideas, Mark.  The remote software idea is interesting.  There is a 220 volt outlet already on the outside perimeter deck, which we had put in for the possibility of someday having a hot tub out there – which we never did.  I could put both the amp and the PS in some sort of lockable housing on the deck (which would require hiring a carpenter rather than an electrician.)  I will definitely keep an eye on the development of remote software for the KPA1500.

I remember when we were building the house we asked our contractor about doing something which would have been unusual, I don’t now recall what.  I asked if it could be done.  His answer was like yours – “For enough money, I can do anything.”

Ted, KN1CBR

From: Mark Goldberg <[hidden email]>
Date: Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 1:29 PM
To: "Dauer, Edward" <[hidden email]>
Cc: Dave AD6A <[hidden email]>, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] How far can the KPA1500 amp be from the PS?



On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Dauer, Edward <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
Placing both PS and amp where the 220 VAC outlet is accessible is possible; but then I wouldn't be able to see the amp while operating, which I would like to do.  Wouldn't feel comfortable with a 1500 watt amp running way out of sight.  It would also then be in the kitchen on a floor above.  Not aesthetically the best that way, either.

Due to some temporary relocation of my ham shack for a home refurbish, I am using my KPA500 remotely with the KPA500 remote software server running on a spare netbook near the amp, and the client running on a computer near the rig. There is one 100 ft long RG214 Coax between the KPA500 and the rig for RF and one 100 ft small coax with RCA connectors between them for PTT. The amp and autotuner are at the antenna feed and grounded well. The rig away on the other side of the house not so well RF grounded, but there is no RFI so far. That enables me to see the KPA500 status and change the band on the PC in the shack. They don't yet seem to have the remote software for the KPA1500 yet, but it is supposed to be coming.

I would probably accept visible conduit to run power if you can't run it in the walls. As part of the refurbish, drywall was taken out and replaced and the texture matched so new plumbing and electrical could go in.  They also replaced insulation. That worked out well, but it was expensive. There is not really any such thing as can't if you have deep enough pockets!

73,

Mark
W7MLG



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[kstover]

Ed,

I live in a 4 level split. Not a good situation for my knees and running power lines.
I assume the breaker box is on an outside wall. Here is what I did .

I went outside.
My shack in on level three, half buried in soil. Ground level comes up to just below the windows.
I had an electrician look at the situation and we decided to run the power for that room in conduit...outside.
It's 25 feet from the power panel in the basement to the shack.

The conduit is connected to the house just below the siding on concrete. Some very large conductors fill the conduit and make their way along the bottom of the house to a point just past the first stud in a closet in the shack. The panel is installed there and I have 2 240V 20A lines and 3 120V  20A lines

It's just like running power to an outbuilding or garage except the building Is a particular floor of the house.

It got painted when the house got painted last year and it just disappeared.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Dauer, Edward
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2018 1:09 PM
To: Dave AD6A <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] How far can the KPA1500 amp be from the PS?

Placing both PS and amp where the 220 VAC outlet is accessible is possible; but then I wouldn't be able to see the amp while operating, which I would like to do.  Wouldn't feel comfortable with a 1500 watt amp running way out of sight.  It would also then be in the kitchen on a floor above.  Not aesthetically the best that way, either.

As I described in reply to one other suggestion:

The "shack" is a spare bedroom in the lowest (of three) level of the house, which because it is built into a hillside and therefore half of it is below grade, has 12 inch concrete walls and a six inch (as I remember it) concrete floor covered only with a carpet and carpet pad.  The ceiling of that room is finished as is the entire interior.  The problem with snaking a line through the walls from the distribution box which is on a deck above ground level is that the entire space between the inside side of the concrete and the drywall is filled with cellular foam insulation.  It was, when we had it built, the recommended way to go for the mountain climate.  I did think to have a conduit put through the wall to allow antenna feedline coax to go through; but the electrician who was there said there is now no way to get a 220 line through the walls without major destruction.  I might bring it overhead (between the finished ceiling of the lower level and the floor of the next level up) but then to get it down to a usable level in the "shack" would require a conduit running down the inside wall surface.  That may be what I will have to do . . .

Or maybe Tesla's idea could be resurrected -- a big inductor inside and a transmitting power source out in the yard. I believe the Wardenclyffe Tower was originally planned for Colorado Springs, only 40 miles from the operating QTH.  Some parts might still be available.

Any other ideas from those who know about these sorts of things?

Tnx,

Ted, KN1CBR

On 4/28/18, 8:55 AM, "Dave AD6A" <[hidden email]> wrote:

    Why not just use the amp as-is near the 220V outlet and run longer RF coax cables to the amp from your operating position?
   
    Dave
    AD6A
   
    Sent from my  iPhone X
   
    On Apr 28, 2018, at 6:54 AM, Dauer, Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:
   
    The KPA1500 Manual states that “the power supply can be operated remotely” and that the supplied cables are 66 inches long.  It does not say how far apart, beyond the 66 inches, the PS and the amp can be without affecting performance or creating other issues.  
   
    Does anyone know?  There are apparently three cables – the main HV, the 15-pin control, and the 12VDC phono plug cable for remote turn-on of the amp.
   
    Thoughts, anyone?
   
    Thanks, as always,
   
    Ted, KN1CBR            
   
    ______________________________________________________________
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[Don Wilhelm]

Ted,

The routing of the 240 volt wiring is a discussion between you and the
electrician - but there is always "a way" - even if that means drilling
through concrete (not nice, but possible).

Unless the wiring route is short, take Jim Beown's (K9YC) advice about
conductor sizes.  Large conductors are not required for the current
draw, but oversize wire will help reduce the voltage drop when current
is drawn.

Putting all shack receptacles on a dedicated circuit for both 240 volts
and 120 volts AC will help a lot with received noise in your receiver,
and will isolate your shack powering from other circuits in the house.
K9YC gives good advice on this subject, even though your electrician may
consider it overkill for Jim's recommended wire size.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/28/2018 2:08 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote:
> Placing both PS and amp where the 220 VAC outlet is accessible is possible; but then I wouldn't be able to see the amp while operating, which I would like to do.  Wouldn't feel comfortable with a 1500 watt amp running way out of sight.  It would also then be in the kitchen on a floor above.  Not aesthetically the best that way, either.
>
> As I described in reply to one other suggestion:
>
> The "shack" is a spare bedroom in the lowest (of three) level of the house, which because it is built into a hillside and therefore half of it is below grade, has 12 inch concrete walls and a six inch (as I remember it) concrete floor covered only with a carpet and carpet pad.  The ceiling of that room is finished as is the entire interior.  The problem with snaking a line through the walls from the distribution box which is on a deck above ground level is that the entire space between the inside side of the concrete and the drywall is filled with cellular foam insulation.  It was, when we had it built, the recommended way to go for the mountain climate.  I did think to have a conduit put through the wall to allow antenna feedline coax to go through; but the electrician who was there said there is now no way to get a 220 line through the walls without major destruction.  I might bring it overhead (between the finished ceiling of the lower level and the floor of the next lev
 el up) but then to get it down to a usable level in the "shack" would require a conduit running down the inside wall surface.  That may be what I will have to do . . .
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[rich hurd WC3T]

At the risk of spinning this off topic, I am reminded of the lesson I
learned years ago when I drilled a through hole through the foundation for
our low voltage walkway wiring.

I wondered at the efficacy of my brand new shiny Dewalt hammer drill
because it was taking me freaking hours to go a few inches through the
concrete.  After a couple of these tortuous hours, I cursed and looked
closely at the drill - and noticed that the direction switch was on
"reverse".   Attention to detail is important in any endeavor.

On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 19:55 Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ted,
>
> The routing of the 240 volt wiring is a discussion between you and the
> electrician - but there is always "a way" - even if that means drilling
> through concrete (not nice, but possible).
>
> Unless the wiring route is short, take Jim Beown's (K9YC) advice about
> conductor sizes.  Large conductors are not required for the current
> draw, but oversize wire will help reduce the voltage drop when current
> is drawn.
>
> Putting all shack receptacles on a dedicated circuit for both 240 volts
> and 120 volts AC will help a lot with received noise in your receiver,
> and will isolate your shack powering from other circuits in the house.
> K9YC gives good advice on this subject, even though your electrician may
> consider it overkill for Jim's recommended wire size.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 4/28/2018 2:08 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote:
> > Placing both PS and amp where the 220 VAC outlet is accessible is
> possible; but then I wouldn't be able to see the amp while operating, which
> I would like to do.  Wouldn't feel comfortable with a 1500 watt amp running
> way out of sight.  It would also then be in the kitchen on a floor above.
> Not aesthetically the best that way, either.
> >
> > As I described in reply to one other suggestion:
> >
> > The "shack" is a spare bedroom in the lowest (of three) level of the
> house, which because it is built into a hillside and therefore half of it
> is below grade, has 12 inch concrete walls and a six inch (as I remember
> it) concrete floor covered only with a carpet and carpet pad.  The ceiling
> of that room is finished as is the entire interior.  The problem with
> snaking a line through the walls from the distribution box which is on a
> deck above ground level is that the entire space between the inside side of
> the concrete and the drywall is filled with cellular foam insulation.  It
> was, when we had it built, the recommended way to go for the mountain
> climate.  I did think to have a conduit put through the wall to allow
> antenna feedline coax to go through; but the electrician who was there said
> there is now no way to get a 220 line through the walls without major
> destruction.  I might bring it overhead (between the finished ceiling of
> the lower level and the floor of the next lev
>  el up) but then to get it down to a usable level in the "shack" would
> require a conduit running down the inside wall surface.  That may be what I
> will have to do . . .
> ______________________________________________________________
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--
72,
Rich Hurd / WC3T / DMR: 3142737
PA Army MARS, Northampton County RACES, EPA-ARRL Public Information Officer
for Scouting
Latitude: 40.761621 Longitude: -75.288988  (40°45.68' N 75°17.33' W) Grid:
*FN20is*
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[Kidder, George]

Reminds me of my first chain saw - I bought a demo, already assembled,
and it didn't cut for beans!  Finally noticed the chain was on backwards.

George, W3HBM

On 4/28/2018 8:08 PM, rich hurd WC3T wrote:

> At the risk of spinning this off topic, I am reminded of the lesson I
> learned years ago when I drilled a through hole through the foundation for
> our low voltage walkway wiring.
>
> I wondered at the efficacy of my brand new shiny Dewalt hammer drill
> because it was taking me freaking hours to go a few inches through the
> concrete.  After a couple of these tortuous hours, I cursed and looked
> closely at the drill - and noticed that the direction switch was on
> "reverse".   Attention to detail is important in any endeavor.
>
> On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 19:55 Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Ted,
>>
>> The routing of the 240 volt wiring is a discussion between you and the
>> electrician - but there is always "a way" - even if that means drilling
>> through concrete (not nice, but possible).
>>
>> Unless the wiring route is short, take Jim Beown's (K9YC) advice about
>> conductor sizes.  Large conductors are not required for the current
>> draw, but oversize wire will help reduce the voltage drop when current
>> is drawn.
>>
>> Putting all shack receptacles on a dedicated circuit for both 240 volts
>> and 120 volts AC will help a lot with received noise in your receiver,
>> and will isolate your shack powering from other circuits in the house.
>> K9YC gives good advice on this subject, even though your electrician may
>> consider it overkill for Jim's recommended wire size.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> On 4/28/2018 2:08 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote:
>>> Placing both PS and amp where the 220 VAC outlet is accessible is
>> possible; but then I wouldn't be able to see the amp while operating, which
>> I would like to do.  Wouldn't feel comfortable with a 1500 watt amp running
>> way out of sight.  It would also then be in the kitchen on a floor above.
>> Not aesthetically the best that way, either.
>>>
>>> As I described in reply to one other suggestion:
>>>
>>> The "shack" is a spare bedroom in the lowest (of three) level of the
>> house, which because it is built into a hillside and therefore half of it
>> is below grade, has 12 inch concrete walls and a six inch (as I remember
>> it) concrete floor covered only with a carpet and carpet pad.  The ceiling
>> of that room is finished as is the entire interior.  The problem with
>> snaking a line through the walls from the distribution box which is on a
>> deck above ground level is that the entire space between the inside side of
>> the concrete and the drywall is filled with cellular foam insulation.  It
>> was, when we had it built, the recommended way to go for the mountain
>> climate.  I did think to have a conduit put through the wall to allow
>> antenna feedline coax to go through; but the electrician who was there said
>> there is now no way to get a 220 line through the walls without major
>> destruction.  I might bring it overhead (between the finished ceiling of
>> the lower level and the floor of the next lev
>>   el up) but then to get it down to a usable level in the "shack" would
>> require a conduit running down the inside wall surface.  That may be what I
>> will have to do . . .
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>

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[Phil Kane-2]

On 4/28/2018 11:08 AM, Dauer, Edward wrote:

> I did think to have a conduit put through the wall to allow antenna
> feedline coax to go through; but the electrician who was there said
> there is now no way to get a 220 line through the walls without major
> destruction.

My wife is a now-retired electrical power engineering designer for
commercial and industrial projects and says that this is a routine
operation in the US.  It can be done very neatly to your satisfaction.

Sounds like the "electrician" that told you that really didn't want your
job.  Get a better electrician!


73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402
Registered Professional Engineer (Electrical)
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[Edward R Cole]

Ted,

I wonder if the load center panel is mounted on an exterior wall?  If
so running a penetration from the panel to outside might be
better.  Then you could route it in conduit or exterior cable routed
along exterior to a good spot to bring it back inside at the lower
level.  That still might require running cable along interior wall surface.

I ran about 35-foot of 8-4 cable from my 200A service panel in our
utility hall by running it thru pvc conduit thru the floor to our
4-foot high crawl space.  Then looped  across the underside of floor
joists to another floor penetration in the ham shack where I
installed a 80A panel.  I installed one 240v 20A breaker for my QRO
amplifier PS and added two 120v 20A duplex boxes which run my 50A
Astron 12v station supply and a MOT 24v 100w repeater PS for 24v
stuff.  240vac was run thru conduit to 4-inch box with 20A twist-lock
receptacle for the amp cord to plug into.

Now I am converting to 50v LDMOS amps and need to provide them
240vac.  Two will be kilowatt amps and another 600w.  Each to be
installed at the base of a different tower so will have 120-foot,
100-foot, and 70-foot 240vac cable runs outside.  All get to run
inside 2-inch conduit and will have load centers at the amplifier
end. Two will route from the hamshack 240v panel.  Third has not been
determined (might be second 240v line direct from the house main panel).

I am designing remote control panels for each amplifier to control
and monitor parameters.  All are no-tune single band amps so that is
much simpler than a KPA500 or KPA1500.

But my circumstance is much easier with open crawl space and simple
R-19 fiberglass insulated wooden walls; quick work with a hole
saw.  Working one summer in college as electrical apprentice doesn't
hurt knowing what to do.  My dad's barn got wired after that summer (for free).

73, Ed - KL7UW
   http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
   [hidden email]

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[Phil Kane-2]

On 4/28/2018 4:55 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Unless the wiring route is short, take Jim Beown's (K9YC) advice about
> conductor sizes.  Large conductors are not required for the current
> draw, but oversize wire will help reduce the voltage drop when current
> is drawn.

That's why, for one of the mountain-top comm sites that we designed for
a desert site out in the middle of nowhere, we specified - ready for
this - 900 Kcmil conductors (*) for a 120/208V 400A feeder because the
power company located the CSED (Customer Service Entrance Device) i.e.
meter and main breaker installation  - at a point down the hill that
they could reach in any weather.

(* Visualize copper-filled garden hose.  3 sizes over minimum code (4/0
AWG) to minimize voltage drop and conductor heating.)


73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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[Rick Tavan-2]

Although the KPA1500 can already be operated remotely, comfortably, using
KPA1500 Utility's Operate page, and although the eventual release of
KPA1500 Remote will be even better, I would advise against putting the amp
outdoors. Even if the housing is 100% water tight forever, Murphy almost
guarantees that the first failure that causes you to want to access the
amplifier will occur during a downpour or snow storm. Just run the 240 VAC
line into the shack somehow (and the 120 VAC line suggested by K9YC). Worst
case, you'll need to run conduit along a wall and maybe ceiling, perhaps
covered by a soffit. Some folks even put up a false wall of paneling in
front of an existing wall that they can't dig in to.

GL,

/Rick N6XI


Rick Tavan
Truckee, CA

On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 12:59 PM, Dauer, Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Thanks for the ideas, Mark.  The remote software idea is interesting.
> There is a 220 volt outlet already on the outside perimeter deck, which we
> had put in for the possibility of someday having a hot tub out there –
> which we never did.  I could put both the amp and the PS in some sort of
> lockable housing on the deck (which would require hiring a carpenter rather
> than an electrician.)  I will definitely keep an eye on the development of
> remote software for the KPA1500.
>
> I remember when we were building the house we asked our contractor about
> doing something which would have been unusual, I don’t now recall what.  I
> asked if it could be done.  His answer was like yours – “For enough money,
> I can do anything.”
>
> Ted, KN1CBR
>
> From: Mark Goldberg <[hidden email]>
> Date: Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 1:29 PM
> To: "Dauer, Edward" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Dave AD6A <[hidden email]>, "[hidden email]" <
> [hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] How far can the KPA1500 amp be from the PS?
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Dauer, Edward <[hidden email]<mailto:
> [hidden email]>> wrote:
> Placing both PS and amp where the 220 VAC outlet is accessible is
> possible; but then I wouldn't be able to see the amp while operating, which
> I would like to do.  Wouldn't feel comfortable with a 1500 watt amp running
> way out of sight.  It would also then be in the kitchen on a floor above.
> Not aesthetically the best that way, either.
>
> Due to some temporary relocation of my ham shack for a home refurbish, I
> am using my KPA500 remotely with the KPA500 remote software server running
> on a spare netbook near the amp, and the client running on a computer near
> the rig. There is one 100 ft long RG214 Coax between the KPA500 and the rig
> for RF and one 100 ft small coax with RCA connectors between them for PTT.
> The amp and autotuner are at the antenna feed and grounded well. The rig
> away on the other side of the house not so well RF grounded, but there is
> no RFI so far. That enables me to see the KPA500 status and change the band
> on the PC in the shack. They don't yet seem to have the remote software for
> the KPA1500 yet, but it is supposed to be coming.
>
> I would probably accept visible conduit to run power if you can't run it
> in the walls. As part of the refurbish, drywall was taken out and replaced
> and the texture matched so new plumbing and electrical could go in.  They
> also replaced insulation. That worked out well, but it was expensive. There
> is not really any such thing as can't if you have deep enough pockets!
>
> 73,
>
> Mark
> W7MLG
>
>
>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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[Edward R Cole]

I would agree.  If I invested >$5K in a shiny new piece of ham gear I
would not risk it to damage from moisture.  Besides, I would want to
admire it every time I sat down in the shack.

With that being said, I have a lot of equipment remotely located at
tower top or bottom.  Most of my operating is VHF/UHF/mw where RF
cable losses can be astronomical.  Everything at 900-MHz and up is
remote in outside enclosures (usually fiberglass).  NONE are
air-tight and are open on bottom for free air exchange.  I live in a
coastal, sub-arctic climate which guarantee's moist air.  Temperature
changes will pull outside air into sealed compartments which have no
path to exhaust back outside.  Even if you live in the desert,
temperature pumping exists (less extremely a air is drier).

I am currently in process of installing a 1000w 6m,1200w 2m, and 600w
1296 amplifiers at base of their respective antennas (towers).  All
will have cooling fans with exterior air exchange (typically drawing
air thru openings in bottom of enclosure and exhausted by fans thru
separate vents (shielded from water entry).

For HF, cable loss is insignificant if they are rated for QRO; keep
it inside, warm/cool and dry.

73, Ed

Rick N6XI, writes (edited):

I would advise against putting the amp
outdoors. Even if the housing is 100% water tight forever, Murphy almost
guarantees that the first failure that causes you to want to access the
amplifier will occur during a downpour or snow storm.


73, Ed - KL7UW
   http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
   [hidden email]

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[kstover]

Who said move the amp outside?
I said move the power run outside from the room where the panel is to the
room that needs it.

R. Kevin Stover    AC0H

ARRL, FISTS, SKCC, NAQCC.
One of the guys that made sneakernet irrelevant, in my little corner of the
world.
"If it doesn't work the first time you push the button it won't work the
20th.Just stop."

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On
Behalf Of Edward R Cole
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2018 5:57 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FW: How far can the KPA1500 amp be from the PS?

I would agree.  If I invested >$5K in a shiny new piece of ham gear I would
not risk it to damage from moisture.  Besides, I would want to admire it
every time I sat down in the shack.

With that being said, I have a lot of equipment remotely located at tower
top or bottom.  Most of my operating is VHF/UHF/mw where RF cable losses can
be astronomical.  Everything at 900-MHz and up is remote in outside
enclosures (usually fiberglass).  NONE are air-tight and are open on bottom
for free air exchange.  I live in a coastal, sub-arctic climate which
guarantee's moist air.  Temperature changes will pull outside air into
sealed compartments which have no path to exhaust back outside.  Even if you
live in the desert, temperature pumping exists (less extremely a air is
drier).

I am currently in process of installing a 1000w 6m,1200w 2m, and 600w
1296 amplifiers at base of their respective antennas (towers).  All will
have cooling fans with exterior air exchange (typically drawing air thru
openings in bottom of enclosure and exhausted by fans thru separate vents
(shielded from water entry).

For HF, cable loss is insignificant if they are rated for QRO; keep it
inside, warm/cool and dry.

73, Ed

Rick N6XI, writes (edited):

I would advise against putting the amp
outdoors. Even if the housing is 100% water tight forever, Murphy almost
guarantees that the first failure that causes you to want to access the
amplifier will occur during a downpour or snow storm.


73, Ed - KL7UW
   http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
   [hidden email]

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