IC-7610 added to Sherwood's list
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IC-7610 added to Sherwood's list
 
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Rob’s IC-7610 RX performance measurements are now posted, at
sherweng.com. The ‘7610 came in twelfth on his list. The real shocker is the BDR: only 119 to 122 dB. That’s 30 dB weaker than the K3S and only 1 dB better than the IC-7300. I guess no one is using these rigs in high-signal conditions. Bragging rights for the K3, KX3 and K3S owners. 73, Don W3FPR ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: IC-7610 added to Sherwood's list
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Don:
I wonder if this is a result of rushing the rig to market instead of getting things correct first. -- *73 De Mike* *VE3YF _/http://www.ve3yf.com/_* ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: IC-7610 added to Sherwood's list
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Mike,
I refuse to speculate on Icom's motives. I just read the results. 73, Don W3FPR On 12/24/2017 7:19 PM, Mike VE3YF wrote: > Don: > > I wonder if this is a result of rushing the rig to market instead of > getting things correct first. > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: IC-7610 added to Sherwood's list
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In reply to this post by Mike VE3YF
We all can look forward to the 7610PRO, whatever that means. What an
unbelievable amount of hype proceeded the release of this transceiver... 73 Jeff kb2m -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mike VE3YF Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 7:20 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] IC-7610 added to Sherwood's list Don: I wonder if this is a result of rushing the rig to market instead of getting things correct first. -- *73 De Mike* *VE3YF _/http://www.ve3yf.com/_* ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: IC-7610 added to Sherwood's list
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-5
On 12/24/2017 5:32 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: > The real shocker is the BDR: only 119 to 122 dB. That’s 30 dB weaker > than the K3S and only 1 dB better than the IC-7300. My guess is that the "Front end selectivity" is not an "A tracking preselector" but rather a "B Band Pass" and that the bandpass is wider that that of the 7300 in order to support the "dual RX" capability of the 7610. It's either that or the design/hardware has some significant bugs. The other explanation would be simply that direct sampling SDR has a far wider measurement variability than traditional receiver topology. Note the 12 dB difference in IMDDR3 between Flex 6700 on 9/29/14 and the Flex 6700 measured on 3/17/17. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 12/24/2017 5:32 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: > Rob’s IC-7610 RX performance measurements are now posted, at > sherweng.com. The ‘7610 came in twelfth on his list. > The real shocker is the BDR: only 119 to 122 dB. That’s 30 dB weaker > than the K3S and only 1 dB better than the IC-7300. I guess no one is > using these rigs in high-signal conditions. > > Bragging rights for the K3, KX3 and K3S owners. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: IC-7610 added to Sherwood's list
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-5
How is it possible to compare the dynamic range of a direct conversion radio with a superhet, where a mode-specific filter can be placed at the first mixer, with the expectation that direct conversion would give similar dynamic range as a superhet?
I haven't heard yet a technical way to explain this, especially given how Wes Hayward defined how to measure receiver dynamic range many years ago. 73, Will, wj9b CWops #1085 CWA Advisor levels II and III http://cwops.org/ -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 12/24/17, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote: Subject: Re: [Elecraft] IC-7610 added to Sherwood's list To: [hidden email] Date: Sunday, December 24, 2017, 5:03 PM On 12/24/2017 5:32 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: > The real shocker is the BDR: only 119 to 122 dB. That’s 30 dB weaker > than the K3S and only 1 dB better than the IC-7300. My guess is that the "Front end selectivity" is not an "A tracking preselector" but rather a "B Band Pass" and that the bandpass is wider that that of the 7300 in order to support the "dual RX" capability of the 7610. It's either that or the design/hardware has some significant bugs. The other explanation would be simply that direct sampling SDR has a far wider measurement variability than traditional receiver topology. Note the 12 dB difference in IMDDR3 between Flex 6700 on 9/29/14 and the Flex 6700 measured on 3/17/17. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 12/24/2017 5:32 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: > Rob’s IC-7610 RX performance measurements are now posted, at > sherweng.com. The ‘7610 came in twelfth on his list. > The real shocker is the BDR: only 119 to 122 dB. That’s 30 dB weaker > than the K3S and only 1 dB better than the IC-7300. I guess no one is > using these rigs in high-signal conditions. > > Bragging rights for the K3, KX3 and K3S owners. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4
Does anybody know if the "dual RX" is full diversity reception?
Al W6LX >>> ...to support the "dual RX" capability of the 7610. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: IC-7610 added to Sherwood's list
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Al -
The published specs indicate "diversity" (not just dual watch). If there is a difference between "diversity" and "full diversity" it is not something of which I am aware. Dave - K9FN On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 11:12 PM, Al Lorona <[hidden email]> wrote: > Does anybody know if the "dual RX" is full diversity reception? > > Al W6LX > > > > > >>> ...to support the "dual RX" capability of the 7610. > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: IC-7610 added to Sherwood's list
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In reply to this post by WILLIE BABER
You're right, it is misleading to compare third-order intermodulation
distortion dynamic range (IMD3) specs of a direct-sampling receiver and a superhet. With a superhet, the distortion tends to increase linearly with signal level, 3 dB per dB for third-order products. So you can measure IMD3 using different techniques and signal levels and get approximately the same answer. With direct-sampling receivers you can get almost any result you want simply by slightly changing the test parameters. Even measuring the same receiver using supposedly the same technique, the results are often inconsistent. In my opinion, the best apples-to-apples comparison of direct-sampling and superhet receivers is blocking dynamic range (BDR). It is a simple measurement of the ratio between the strongest signal the receiver can handle and the weakest signal it can hear. BDR tends to be limited by phase noise when the interfering signal is close to the desired signal. This is not a measurement artifact but reflects actual on-the-air performance. Direct-sampling receivers tend to have an advantage close-in, although a superhet can also do well if the synthesizer is carefully designed (for example the K3s :=) Alan N1AL On 12/24/2017 06:19 PM, WILLIE BABER wrote: > How is it possible to compare the dynamic range of a direct conversion > radio with a superhet, where a mode-specific filter can be placed at > the first mixer, with the expectation that direct conversion would > give similar dynamic range as a superhet? > > I haven't heard yet a technical way to explain this, especially given > how Wes Hayward defined how to measure receiver dynamic range many years ago. > > 73, Will, wj9b > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by David Bunte
Thanks, Dave. I used that extra word “full” for no reason. Thanks for confirming that it does diversity. I had heard that the VFOs weren’t actually phase-locked. Glad to hear they are.
Merry Christmas, Al. W6LX > On Dec 24, 2017, at 8:56 PM, David Bunte <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Al - > > The published specs indicate "diversity" (not just dual watch). If there is a difference between "diversity" and "full diversity" it is not something of which I am aware. > > Dave - K9FN > >> On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 11:12 PM, Al Lorona <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Does anybody know if the "dual RX" is full diversity reception? >> >> Al W6LX >> >> >> >> >> >>> ...to support the "dual RX" capability of the 7610. >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to [hidden email] > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-5
I just checked the list. I don't see it.
John N1JM Don Wilhelm-5 wrote > Rob’s IC-7610 RX performance measurements are now posted, at > sherweng.com. The ‘7610 came in twelfth on his list. > The real shocker is the BDR: only 119 to 122 dB. That’s 30 dB weaker > than the K3S and only 1 dB better than the IC-7300. I guess no one is > using these rigs in high-signal conditions. > > Bragging rights for the K3, KX3 and K3S owners. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto: > Elecraft@.qth > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to > lists+1215531472858-365791@.nabble -- Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/ ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Sorry my eyes deceived me. It's there.
John_N1JM wrote > I just checked the list. I don't see it. > > John N1JM > > > > Don Wilhelm-5 wrote >> Rob’s IC-7610 RX performance measurements are now posted, at >> sherweng.com. The ‘7610 came in twelfth on his list. >> The real shocker is the BDR: only 119 to 122 dB. That’s 30 dB weaker >> than the K3S and only 1 dB better than the IC-7300. I guess no one is >> using these rigs in high-signal conditions. >> >> Bragging rights for the K3, KX3 and K3S owners. >> >> 73, >> Don W3FPR >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto: > >> Elecraft@.qth > >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to > >> lists+1215531472858-365791@.nabble > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/ > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto: > Elecraft@.qth > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to > lists+1215531472858-365791@.nabble -- Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/ ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: IC-7610 added to Sherwood's list
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Administrator
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In reply to this post by Alan Bloom
Alan,
Maybe this (low BDR) explains why the ‘7610 provides such a huge amount of user-selectable attenuation. I think it’s on the order of 45 dB. Wayne N6KR ---- http://www.elecraft.com > On Dec 24, 2017, at 9:27 PM, Alan <[hidden email]> wrote: > ... > In my opinion, the best apples-to-apples comparison of direct-sampling and superhet receivers is blocking dynamic range (BDR). It is a simple measurement of the ratio between the strongest signal the receiver can handle and the weakest signal it can hear. > > BDR tends to be limited by phase noise when the interfering signal is close to the desired signal. This is not a measurement artifact but reflects actual on-the-air performance. Direct-sampling receivers tend to have an advantage close-in, although a superhet can also do well if the synthesizer is carefully designed (for example the K3s :=) > > Alan N1AL >> ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: IC-7610 added to Sherwood's list
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In reply to this post by alorona
Be careful! The IC-7610 lacks a second "Line Out" connection for the sub-receiver. That means that the user can not feed each receiver to the left/right channels of the soundcard and decode data modes on both receivers at the same time ... think monitoring a DX station and listening for callers in the (split) pile up at the same time, etc. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 12/25/2017 12:37 AM, a******@sbcglobal wrote: > Thanks, Dave. I used that extra word “full” for no reason. Thanks for confirming that it does diversity. I had heard that the VFOs weren’t actually phase-locked. Glad to hear they are. > > Merry Christmas, > > Al. W6LX > >> On Dec 24, 2017, at 8:56 PM, David Bunte <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Al - >> >> The published specs indicate "diversity" (not just dual watch). If there is a difference between "diversity" and "full diversity" it is not something of which I am aware. >> >> Dave - K9FN >> >>> On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 11:12 PM, Al Lorona <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> Does anybody know if the "dual RX" is full diversity reception? >>> >>> Al W6LX >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> ...to support the "dual RX" capability of the 7610. >>> ______________________________________________________________ >>> Elecraft mailing list >>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >>> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >>> >>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >>> Message delivered to [hidden email] >> > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: IC-7610 added to Sherwood's list
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Yes,
And while you can do SO2R with the dual antenna configuration, you can't really do SO2R the way it should be as it doesn't handle OTRSP to handle the audio switching. At least, from what I have seen. That can limit some contesting features. Mike va3mw On Mon, Dec 25, 2017 at 7:31 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Be careful! The IC-7610 lacks a second "Line Out" connection for the > sub-receiver. That means that the user can not feed each receiver to > the left/right channels of the soundcard and decode data modes on both > receivers at the same time ... think monitoring a DX station and > listening for callers in the (split) pile up at the same time, etc. > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV > > > On 12/25/2017 12:37 AM, a******@sbcglobal wrote: > >> Thanks, Dave. I used that extra word “full” for no reason. Thanks for >> confirming that it does diversity. I had heard that the VFOs weren’t >> actually phase-locked. Glad to hear they are. >> >> Merry Christmas, >> >> Al. W6LX >> >> On Dec 24, 2017, at 8:56 PM, David Bunte <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> Al - >>> >>> The published specs indicate "diversity" (not just dual watch). If there >>> is a difference between "diversity" and "full diversity" it is not >>> something of which I am aware. >>> >>> Dave - K9FN >>> >>> On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 11:12 PM, Al Lorona <[hidden email]> >>>> wrote: >>>> Does anybody know if the "dual RX" is full diversity reception? >>>> >>>> Al W6LX >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ...to support the "dual RX" capability of the 7610. >>>>>>> >>>>>> ______________________________________________________________ >>>> Elecraft mailing list >>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >>>> >>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >>>> Message delivered to [hidden email] >>>> >>> >>> >> ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-5
Nice radio but not a K3s by any stretch of the imagination. I have both.
73, John N1JM Don Wilhelm-5 wrote > Rob’s IC-7610 RX performance measurements are now posted, at > sherweng.com. The ‘7610 came in twelfth on his list. > The real shocker is the BDR: only 119 to 122 dB. That’s 30 dB weaker > than the K3S and only 1 dB better than the IC-7300. I guess no one is > using these rigs in high-signal conditions. > > Bragging rights for the K3, KX3 and K3S owners. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto: > Elecraft@.qth > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to > lists+1215531472858-365791@.nabble -- Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/ ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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