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If it plugs in, then it should work

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Edward A. Dauer

If it plugs in, then it should work

Indeed it should work if it plugs in AND if it looks the same, or at least
it shouldn¹t cause any serious harm. In other industries where safety is
at issue that is a firmly enforced rule. Examples, from two industries
with which I have worked: Many lives have been saved since general
aviation airframe manufacturers sized fuel filler ports, or required
retrofit port restrictors, so that turbine fuel physically could not be
loaded into tanks feeding a gasoline engine. Line boys, as they¹re
called, are no more or less cautious than the rest of us, but the theme is
that people make mistakes so the systems in which they work should be
engineered to prevent those mistakes or to prevent them from doing any
harm. Ditto in medicine. Patient safety was significantly advanced when
the oxygen and the anesthetic gas fittings were made different enough that
oxygen couldn¹t come from anything but the oxygen supply (e.g.
noninterchangeable screw threads). Patient safety gurus have also
insisted that wrist bands used in every hospital everywhere not only have
standard language, but also standard colors so that, in a rush, a band
announcing an allergy (red) couldn¹t be confused for a DNR (purple) even
though the words on each are clear. And crash carts should be in exactly
the same place in every hospital ward. Until very recently some surgeons
marked an X on a limb to mean cut this side, while others marked it to
mean don¹t cut this side. You can guess about the injuries which that
lack of a standard system caused. I¹ll wager the same is true in other
industries where the consequences of human error can be significant. I
don¹t know enough about electrical engineering to offer any specific
suggestions; but as a starting point, IMHO: if it fits, it should work.

Ted, KN1CBR

>Message: 6
>Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 19:31:44 -0500
>From: Bob McGraw - K4TAX <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2 - KPA100 RS232 interface repair
>Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
>The K3S has a RJ-45 connector for the RS-232 communications. Now that's
>different! Of course they supply a cable with a RJ-45 on one end and a
>DB-9F on the other. And then to keep everybody happy, there is what
>appears to be a 15 pin VGA connector that is the ACC connector to
>provide band data and such. The manual clearly states "This is not a
>VGA video connector".
>
>Yes it is very important to read and understand the manual before
>plugging or inserting any connector into any hole on any radio today.
>It seems most hams think if it plugs in, then it should work.
>
>73
>Bob, K4TAX
>K3S s/n 10,163
>

Alan. G4GNX

Re: If it plugs in, then it should work

Whilst much of this may be true, it certainly isn't the case in the
electronics industries (including Ham Radio) no matter how much we would
wish it.

A classic case is the 2.3mm power input plug (which is really a line socket)
which is used on radios, power tool chargers, cell phones, laptop PCs and
just about every wall wart in existence! When we pull the new appliance out
of its box along with its charger, it's a fair assumption that the charger
will be the correct voltage and it will work and cause no damage. If the
charger dies and we have to source a new one, we expect the manufacturer to
provide the correct device, PROVIDED that we quote the correct model number.
If we go to an alternative supplier, WE are expected to check the voltage
and current requirement and order accordingly. If we don't do that we are
inherently STUPID! Remember in all this, the plug on the end of the wire is
the SAME, it's use is not. We may also find that the polarity has been
reversed on one particular model and what we thought was positive center, is
no longer the case. This IS the case for some commercially built Ham Radio
rigs and for some musical keyboards, to name but two. It is up to US the
USER to check before plugging it in and if we don't we are again STUPID! All
this for one style of connector with only two connections - wow!!!

I've seen 5 pin DIN plugs used on Ham Radio rigs, I also use EXACTLY the
same plug for MIDI on musical instruments. They are wired differently, the
voltages, currents and signals are different and if I presumed that I could
simply interchange the plugs, I would consider myself very STUPID!

I would prefer Elecraft to have NOT used the same connector for RS232 and
for AUX, for one reason only. In a moment of stupidity (yes I have them) I
could absent-mindedly plug the wrong connector into one or more orifice.
However, Elecraft obviously did not know that I have these moments of
silliness, so have chosen to not attempt to save me from myself. This leaves
me with three choices: 1) Don't buy the radio. 2) Buy the radio and modify
it to a non-(Elecraft)-standard connector. 3) Buy the radio and RTFM -
thoroughly!

C'mon guys, if you've bought a kit (even a solderless kit) and you consider
yourself capable of successfully assembling it, doesn't it tend to prove
that you are two things at least - 1) You can read and follow instructions.
2) You are not the average appliance operator.

As Radio Hams who have been to "Radio Ham School", I really hope that the
above two qualities truly apply.

73,

Alan. G4GNX

-----Original Message-----
From: Dauer, Edward
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2015 2:32 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] If it plugs in, then it should work

Indeed it should work if it plugs in AND if it looks the same, or at least
it shouldn¹t cause any serious harm. In other industries where safety is
at issue that is a firmly enforced rule. Examples, from two industries
with which I have worked:.........................................

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Frank Krozel

Re: If it plugs in, then it should work

My wife came to me a long time ago with a broken iRobot product. She confused the power plugs -easy to do, they both said iRobot and had the same plugs…
One was AC and one was DC.
If I recall, I had to replace a diode in the broken iRobot.
I used RED and YELLOW tape on the unit and plug from that time on.

Frank KG9H

> On Aug 23, 2015, at 10:07 AM, G4GNX <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Whilst much of this may be true, it certainly isn't the case in the
> electronics industries (including Ham Radio) no matter how much we would
> wish it.
>
> A classic case is the 2.3mm power input plug (which is really a line socket)
> which is used on radios, power tool chargers, cell phones, laptop PCs and
> just about every wall wart in existence! When we pull the new appliance out
> of its box along with its charger, it's a fair assumption that the charger
> will be the correct voltage and it will work and cause no damage. If the
> charger dies and we have to source a new one, we expect the manufacturer to
> provide the correct device, PROVIDED that we quote the correct model number.
> If we go to an alternative supplier, WE are expected to check the voltage
> and current requirement and order accordingly. If we don't do that we are
> inherently STUPID! Remember in all this, the plug on the end of the wire is
> the SAME, it's use is not. We may also find that the polarity has been
> reversed on one particular model and what we thought was positive center, is
> no longer the case. This IS the case for some commercially built Ham Radio
> rigs and for some musical keyboards, to name but two. It is up to US the
> USER to check before plugging it in and if we don't we are again STUPID! All
> this for one style of connector with only two connections - wow!!!
>
> I've seen 5 pin DIN plugs used on Ham Radio rigs, I also use EXACTLY the
> same plug for MIDI on musical instruments. They are wired differently, the
> voltages, currents and signals are different and if I presumed that I could
> simply interchange the plugs, I would consider myself very STUPID!
>
> I would prefer Elecraft to have NOT used the same connector for RS232 and
> for AUX, for one reason only. In a moment of stupidity (yes I have them) I
> could absent-mindedly plug the wrong connector into one or more orifice.
> However, Elecraft obviously did not know that I have these moments of
> silliness, so have chosen to not attempt to save me from myself. This leaves
> me with three choices: 1) Don't buy the radio. 2) Buy the radio and modify
> it to a non-(Elecraft)-standard connector. 3) Buy the radio and RTFM -
> thoroughly!
>
> C'mon guys, if you've bought a kit (even a solderless kit) and you consider
> yourself capable of successfully assembling it, doesn't it tend to prove
> that you are two things at least - 1) You can read and follow instructions.
> 2) You are not the average appliance operator.
>
> As Radio Hams who have been to "Radio Ham School", I really hope that the
> above two qualities truly apply.
>
> 73,
>
> Alan. G4GNX
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Dauer, Edward
> Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2015 2:32 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] If it plugs in, then it should work
>
> Indeed it should work if it plugs in AND if it looks the same, or at least
> it shouldn¹t cause any serious harm. In other industries where safety is
> at issue that is a firmly enforced rule. Examples, from two industries
> with which I have worked:.........................................
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Phil Wheeler-2

Re: If it plugs in, then it should work

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

Then I sure hope no one idly plugs a water hose in
the the fuel filler port of my car!

I guess all those auto manufacturers need to
change the designs to prevent that ignorance, too.

Perhaps the K2 is just too challenging (for some) :-)

Phil W7OX

On 8/23/15 6:32 AM, Dauer, Edward wrote:

> Indeed it should work if it plugs in AND if it looks the same, or at least
> it shouldn¹t cause any serious harm. In other industries where safety is
> at issue that is a firmly enforced rule. Examples, from two industries
> with which I have worked: Many lives have been saved since general
> aviation airframe manufacturers sized fuel filler ports, or required
> retrofit port restrictors, so that turbine fuel physically could not be
> loaded into tanks feeding a gasoline engine. Line boys, as they¹re
> called, are no more or less cautious than the rest of us, but the theme is
> that people make mistakes so the systems in which they work should be
> engineered to prevent those mistakes or to prevent them from doing any
> harm. Ditto in medicine. Patient safety was significantly advanced when
> the oxygen and the anesthetic gas fittings were made different enough that
> oxygen couldn¹t come from anything but the oxygen supply (e.g.
> noninterchangeable screw threads). Patient safety gurus have also
> insisted that wrist bands used in every hospital everywhere not only have
> standard language, but also standard colors so that, in a rush, a band
> announcing an allergy (red) couldn¹t be confused for a DNR (purple) even
> though the words on each are clear. And crash carts should be in exactly
> the same place in every hospital ward. Until very recently some surgeons
> marked an X on a limb to mean cut this side, while others marked it to
> mean don¹t cut this side. You can guess about the injuries which that
> lack of a standard system caused. I¹ll wager the same is true in other
> industries where the consequences of human error can be significant. I
> don¹t know enough about electrical engineering to offer any specific
> suggestions; but as a starting point, IMHO: if it fits, it should work.
>
> Ted, KN1CBR

Ken G Kopp

Re: If it plugs in, then it should work

OT: Then there was the FD a few years ago when one of our guys took the
club's generator by the gas station and filled the crankcase to the top
with fuel. There -were- two (labeled) filler caps protruding from the top
of the housing ..... (;-)

73

Ken - K0PP
On Aug 23, 2015 9:52 AM, "Phil Wheeler" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Then I sure hope no one idly plugs a water hose in the the fuel filler
> port of my car!
>
> I guess all those auto manufacturers need to change the designs to prevent
> that ignorance, too.
>
> Perhaps the K2 is just too challenging (for some) :-)
>
> Phil W7OX
>
> On 8/23/15 6:32 AM, Dauer, Edward wrote:
>
>> Indeed it should work if it plugs in AND if it looks the same, or at least
>> it shouldn¹t cause any serious harm. In other industries where safety is
>> at issue that is a firmly enforced rule. Examples, from two industries
>> with which I have worked: Many lives have been saved since general
>> aviation airframe manufacturers sized fuel filler ports, or required
>> retrofit port restrictors, so that turbine fuel physically could not be
>> loaded into tanks feeding a gasoline engine. Line boys, as they¹re
>> called, are no more or less cautious than the rest of us, but the theme is
>> that people make mistakes so the systems in which they work should be
>> engineered to prevent those mistakes or to prevent them from doing any
>> harm. Ditto in medicine. Patient safety was significantly advanced when
>> the oxygen and the anesthetic gas fittings were made different enough that
>> oxygen couldn¹t come from anything but the oxygen supply (e.g.
>> noninterchangeable screw threads). Patient safety gurus have also
>> insisted that wrist bands used in every hospital everywhere not only have
>> standard language, but also standard colors so that, in a rush, a band
>> announcing an allergy (red) couldn¹t be confused for a DNR (purple) even
>> though the words on each are clear. And crash carts should be in exactly
>> the same place in every hospital ward. Until very recently some surgeons
>> marked an X on a limb to mean cut this side, while others marked it to
>> mean don¹t cut this side. You can guess about the injuries which that
>> lack of a standard system caused. I¹ll wager the same is true in other
>> industries where the consequences of human error can be significant. I
>> don¹t know enough about electrical engineering to offer any specific
>> suggestions; but as a starting point, IMHO: if it fits, it should work.
>>
>> Ted, KN1CBR
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Guy Olinger K2AV

Re: If it plugs in, then it should work

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 9:32 AM, Dauer, Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I¹ll wager the same is true in other
> industries where the consequences of human error can be significant. I
> don¹t know enough about electrical engineering to offer any specific
> suggestions; but as a starting point, IMHO: if it fits, it should work.
>
> Ted, KN1CBR

Good luck retrofitting that on 15 year old electronics. Also are you
ready to spend 25$ per connector because your application differs in
some way and everyone has to invent a new connector for a new use
which can never benefit from economy of scale. Or perhaps we should
just quit inventing anything new.

Aircraft safety is a completely different animal, where the money
*WILL* be spent for safety issues bearing on loss of life, even if an
item now costs $1000 instead of $10 because it is now a very specific
quality-warrantied small-volume item that can never be
mass-manufactured in 100,000 or 500,000 count runs. I'll pay my
portion of the cost of all of that, to be safe on my airplane trips.
But my K2 ain't an airplane, and I don't sit in it at 35,000 feet
doing 500 knots.

On reason K2's are affordable is because they do NOT use a lot of
specialty one-of-a-kind items. And how many would be complaining if it
needed a hard to find specialty plug on the back. We can't afford
stuff made idiot-proof to the extent that RTFM is never needed for
success

DB9 and DB15 are used for all kinds of non-standard stuff, all over
the place (not just Elecraft)... Don't EVER put any male DB9 or DB15
or DB25 in any female DB9 or DB15 or DB25 without knowing what is on
all the pins.

And then what is DB25, serial or parallel port, or something weird?
You always have to look at a DB25 which could be anything.

Look at the back of a MicroHam box sometime, which has dozens of
specialty connections to DB25's. Separate one of a kind jack for each
cable connection?

We really do hate to RTFM, don't we...

I heard one XYL remark at a wives-invited ham function that her
husband wouldn't RTFM any more than he would ask for directions, or
even look at the all-language comic book assembly guide for that
Christmas present, some assembly required.

A friend of mine blew up a beautiful Alpha 99 he'd gotten off eBay for
a really good price because he didn't read the manual for setup and
fed 240V to a transformer that was strapped by the previous owner to
120. That was really expensive. I remember him saying that if I
mentioned RTFM even once he'd come after me with a club. His eBay
savings was wiped out and quite a bit more by the repair cost.

But it was just one more of a bazillion examples of the trouble we
cause ourselves in every aspect of life by our seeming intransigent
unwillingness to RTFM before making assumptions and sticking things in
things.

We shouldn't be asking others to make it safe for our failure to RTFM.
YOU blow it up, YOU suck it up. It's the manly thing to do.

73, Guy K2AV
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If it plugs in, then it should work

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

I would agree with Ted in many instances (especially where safety is paramount), standardization is a necessity (excellent examples are given by Ted). That said, I would have to disagree with him if we try and apply that rational across the board. For instance, I do think applying the "if it fits, it should work" is practical for ALL electronic devices.

Using a fully loaded K3S as an example, there are (not counting the ground lug) twenty four jacks on the back, and 2 on the front; requiring 13 different types of connectors (SO-239, BNC, Anderson Power Pole, RCA/Phone, 1/4" mono jack, 1/4" stereo jack , SMA connector, 1/8" mono jack, 1/8" stereo jack, USB, RJ45, DB15, and last but not least, an eight pin mic connector).

If you were to apply the "if it fits, it should work" rule to the K3S, it would now require twenty six different types of connectors (double what we now have). O yes, even the ANT 1 and ANT 2 need to be different (maybe ANT 2 should be a N connector). WIth Radio Shack going tits up, it is hard enough finding the 13 types of connectors we need today; can you imagine trying to find twenty six different types just for the K3? And if you happen to have a VHF/UHF radio, it should have different connectors than any on the K3 or (for that matter) power amp; God forbid you inadvertently connect the output of your 1.5 KW amp to the ANT jack on your VHF radio!!
Anybody who plugs a cable into a socket just because it happens to fit is a fool; especially amatuer radio operators, we all passed tests on radio theory and should know what all the inputs and outputs on our radios are for and how they are used. As for the DB15, it is marked ACC, it is not labeled VGA; why anyone would think it should be connected to a VGA monitor is beyond me?? Do you assume all radio manufactures use the same pinouts for their RJ45 or 8 pin mic connectors, and connect any mic to any radio?
And yes, Bob (K4TAX) said it all; "it is very important to read and understand the manual before plugging or inserting any connector into any hole on any radio today".

Dick, K8ZTT

From: "Dauer, Edward" <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2015 7:32 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] If it plugs in, then it should work

Indeed it should work if it plugs in AND if it looks the same, or at least
it shouldn¹t cause any serious harm. In other industries where safety is
at issue that is a firmly enforced rule. Examples, from two industries
with which I have worked: Many lives have been saved since general
aviation airframe manufacturers sized fuel filler ports, or required
retrofit port restrictors, so that turbine fuel physically could not be
loaded into tanks feeding a gasoline engine. Line boys, as they¹re
called, are no more or less cautious than the rest of us, but the theme is
that people make mistakes so the systems in which they work should be
engineered to prevent those mistakes or to prevent them from doing any
harm. Ditto in medicine. Patient safety was significantly advanced when
the oxygen and the anesthetic gas fittings were made different enough that
oxygen couldn¹t come from anything but the oxygen supply (e.g.
noninterchangeable screw threads). Patient safety gurus have also
insisted that wrist bands used in every hospital everywhere not only have
standard language, but also standard colors so that, in a rush, a band
announcing an allergy (red) couldn¹t be confused for a DNR (purple) even
though the words on each are clear. And crash carts should be in exactly
the same place in every hospital ward. Until very recently some surgeons
marked an X on a limb to mean cut this side, while others marked it to
mean don¹t cut this side. You can guess about the injuries which that
lack of a standard system caused. I¹ll wager the same is true in other
industries where the consequences of human error can be significant. I
don¹t know enough about electrical engineering to offer any specific
suggestions; but as a starting point, IMHO: if it fits, it should work.

Ted, KN1CBR

Lewis Phelps

Re: If it plugs in, then it should work

>
> On Aug 23, 2015, at 9:50 AM, RIchard Williams via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> WIth Radio Shack going tits up...

Well, your report of RadioShack’s death is premature. They went through a Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceeding, They emerged from Chapter 11 three months after filing, which is VERY fast by bankruptcy court standards. The network of stores was rationalized, with about half being closed, but 1400 remain open. I don’t count on RS very much for component supply, but there are still three RS stores within five miles of my house, versus 6 a year ago.

We’ll know that they are truly about to “go tits up” if the parent company files for Chapter 11 a second time (or, as the joke goes among bankruptcy lawyers, “Chapter 22.”)

Lew

Lew Phelps N6LEW
Pasadena, CA DM04wd
Elecraft K3-10 / KXV144 / XV432
Yaesu FT-7800
[hidden email]
www.n6lew.us

Sent from my Mac Pro 256-Array Supercomputer (9.42 teraflops)

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Edward A. Dauer

Re: If it plugs in, then it should work

In reply to this post by Guy Olinger K2AV

I agree with both Richard (K8ZTT) and with Guy (K2AV), in that all safety
and error prevention strategies have to be subject to a practical
cost-benefit analysis. That’s true even in healthcare — when you receive
a transfusion, the transfused blood type is checked five or six times, not
ten or fifteen, even though that might add a sigma or two to the mismatch
incidence rate. Everything has declining marginal returns and some things
have returns that start out less than their costs. No argument there.

That said - and again confessing that I am not an electrical engineer -
there may be some things that could be addressed cost effectively. For
example, the reverse polarity problem that Alan (G4GNX) mentioned. Would
it be cost effective to have reverse polarity supply and use connectors
made green rather than black, or something like that? That shouldn’t cost
too much.

I don’t mean to be passionate about this. But as a lawyer (and a pilot)
and a professor of healthcare policy, I have spent a fair part of my
careers helping clients overcome inertia in advancing safety in the fields
where I’ve worked. Reading that RTFM may be enough just struck me as out
of phase with all of the QA literature of the last 15 years. It is
essential that operators study the manual, of course; but it is not
sufficient. Systems should assume that human error will happen anyway,
and be robust enough to block the errors that inevitably happen.

Again, I agree that when the cost of more attention to prevention exceeds
its value in the practical world, that should be the end of it. And so
I’ll go QRT with my part in this thread . . .

Thanks for the comments and replies. As always, I gain a lot from this
reflector. The benefits are worth far more than the cost.

Ted, KN1CBR

On 8/23/15, 10:39 AM, "Guy Olinger K2AV" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>Good luck retrofitting that on 15 year old electronics. Also are you
>ready to spend 25$ per connector because your application differs in
>some way and everyone has to invent a new connector for a new use
>which can never benefit from economy of scale. Or perhaps we should
>just quit inventing anything new.
>
>Aircraft safety is a completely different animal, where the money
>*WILL* be spent for safety issues bearing on loss of life, even if an
>item now costs $1000 instead of $10 because it is now a very specific
>quality-warrantied small-volume item that can never be
>mass-manufactured in 100,000 or 500,000 count runs. I'll pay my
>portion of the cost of all of that, to be safe on my airplane trips.
>But my K2 ain't an airplane, and I don't sit in it at 35,000 feet
>doing 500 knots.
>
>On reason K2's are affordable is because they do NOT use a lot of
>specialty one-of-a-kind items. And how many would be complaining if it
>needed a hard to find specialty plug on the back. We can't afford
>stuff made idiot-proof to the extent that RTFM is never needed for
>success
>
>DB9 and DB15 are used for all kinds of non-standard stuff, all over
>the place (not just Elecraft)... Don't EVER put any male DB9 or DB15
>or DB25 in any female DB9 or DB15 or DB25 without knowing what is on
>all the pins.
>
>And then what is DB25, serial or parallel port, or something weird?
>You always have to look at a DB25 which could be anything.
>
>Look at the back of a MicroHam box sometime, which has dozens of
>specialty connections to DB25's. Separate one of a kind jack for each
>cable connection?
>
>We really do hate to RTFM, don't we...
>
>I heard one XYL remark at a wives-invited ham function that her
>husband wouldn't RTFM any more than he would ask for directions, or
>even look at the all-language comic book assembly guide for that
>Christmas present, some assembly required.
>
>A friend of mine blew up a beautiful Alpha 99 he'd gotten off eBay for
>a really good price because he didn't read the manual for setup and
>fed 240V to a transformer that was strapped by the previous owner to
>120. That was really expensive. I remember him saying that if I
>mentioned RTFM even once he'd come after me with a club. His eBay
>savings was wiped out and quite a bit more by the repair cost.
>
>But it was just one more of a bazillion examples of the trouble we
>cause ourselves in every aspect of life by our seeming intransigent
>unwillingness to RTFM before making assumptions and sticking things in
>things.
>
>We shouldn't be asking others to make it safe for our failure to RTFM.
>YOU blow it up, YOU suck it up. It's the manly thing to do.
>
>73, Guy K2AV

George Danner

Re: If it plugs in, then it should work

Once you start down the path to "Idiot-Proofing" equipment, you will soon
learn that the average idiot is much more clever than you ever imagined!

73 George AI4VZ

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Matt Zilmer-3

Re: If it plugs in, then it should work

There are many examples of what George says. One of my buddies
accidentally plugged in his K3's power offset, so that the cable's red
was plugged into the K3's black. No problem until he put the ground
lug on.... Then some Bad Things happened.

I work and live by the rule, "Double check everything that's plugged
in or wired-to."

73,
matt
W6NIA

On Sun, 23 Aug 2015 15:14:54 -0400, you wrote:

>Once you start down the path to "Idiot-Proofing" equipment, you will soon
>learn that the average idiot is much more clever than you ever imagined!
>
>73 George AI4VZ
>
>
>______________________________________________________________
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Matt Zilmer, W6NIA
--
"Always store beer in a dark place." -R. Heinlein

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G3XVR

Re: If it plugs in, then it should work

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

You will never win!

Many years ago we designed a military unit that had many I/O ports, so we chose a selection of MIL STD connectors with different shell sizes, numbers of pins, plugs/ sockets, orientations etc. to make it soldier proof. What we didn't realise until later was that if you used enough force you could get a 14 pin plug to mate with a 19 pin plug with the same shell size!

Danny, G3XVR

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of RIchard Williams via Elecraft
Sent: 23 August 2015 17:50
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] If it plugs in, then it should work

I would agree with Ted in many instances (especially where safety is paramount), standardization is a necessity (excellent examples are given by Ted). That said, I would have to disagree with him if we try and apply that rational across the board. For instance, I do think applying the "if it fits, it should work" is practical for ALL electronic devices.

Using a fully loaded K3S as an example, there are (not counting the ground lug) twenty four jacks on the back, and 2 on the front; requiring 13 different types of connectors (SO-239, BNC, Anderson Power Pole, RCA/Phone, 1/4" mono jack, 1/4" stereo jack , SMA connector, 1/8" mono jack, 1/8" stereo jack, USB, RJ45, DB15, and last but not least, an eight pin mic connector).

If you were to apply the "if it fits, it should work" rule to the K3S, it would now require twenty six different types of connectors (double what we now have). O yes, even the ANT 1 and ANT 2 need to be different (maybe ANT 2 should be a N connector). WIth Radio Shack going tits up, it is hard enough finding the 13 types of connectors we need today; can you imagine trying to find twenty six different types just for the K3? And if you happen to have a VHF/UHF radio, it should have different connectors than any on the K3 or (for that matter) power amp; God forbid you inadvertently connect the output of your 1.5 KW amp to the ANT jack on your VHF radio!! Anybody who plugs a cable into a socket just because it happens to fit is a fool; especially amatuer radio operators, we all passed tests on radio theory and should know what all the inputs and outputs on our radios are for and how they are used. As for the DB15, it is marked ACC, it is not labeled VGA; why anyone would think it should be connected to a VGA monitor is beyond me?? Do you assume all radio manufactures use the same pinouts for their RJ45 or 8 pin mic connectors, and connect any mic to any radio? And yes, Bob (K4TAX) said it all; "it is very important to read and understand the manual before plugging or inserting any connector into any hole on any radio today".

Dick, K8ZTT

From: "Dauer, Edward" <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2015 7:32 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] If it plugs in, then it should work

Indeed it should work if it plugs in AND if it looks the same, or at least it shouldn¹t cause any serious harm. In other industries where safety is at issue that is a firmly enforced rule. Examples, from two industries with which I have worked: Many lives have been saved since general aviation airframe manufacturers sized fuel filler ports, or required retrofit port restrictors, so that turbine fuel physically could not be loaded into tanks feeding a gasoline engine. Line boys, as they¹re called, are no more or less cautious than the rest of us, but the theme is that people make mistakes so the systems in which they work should be engineered to prevent those mistakes or to prevent them from doing any harm. Ditto in medicine. Patient safety was significantly advanced when the oxygen and the anesthetic gas fittings were made different enough that oxygen couldn¹t come from anything but the oxygen supply (e.g.
noninterchangeable screw threads). Patient safety gurus have also insisted that wrist bands used in every hospital everywhere not only have standard language, but also standard colors so that, in a rush, a band announcing an allergy (red) couldn¹t be confused for a DNR (purple) even though the words on each are clear. And crash carts should be in exactly the same place in every hospital ward. Until very recently some surgeons marked an X on a limb to mean cut this side, while others marked it to mean don¹t cut this side. You can guess about the injuries which that lack of a standard system caused. I¹ll wager the same is true in other industries where the consequences of human error can be significant. I don¹t know enough about electrical engineering to offer any specific suggestions; but as a starting point, IMHO: if it fits, it should work.

Ted, KN1CBR

>Message: 6
>Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 19:31:44 -0500
>From: Bob McGraw - K4TAX <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2 - KPA100 RS232 interface repair
>Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
>The K3S has a RJ-45 connector for the RS-232 communications. Now
>that's different! Of course they supply a cable with a RJ-45 on one
>end and a DB-9F on the other. And then to keep everybody happy, there
>is what appears to be a 15 pin VGA connector that is the ACC connector
>to provide band data and such. The manual clearly states "This is not
>a VGA video connector".
>
>Yes it is very important to read and understand the manual before
>plugging or inserting any connector into any hole on any radio today.
>It seems most hams think if it plugs in, then it should work.
>
>73
>Bob, K4TAX
>K3S s/n 10,163
>

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bs usb

Re: If it plugs in, then it should work

In reply to this post by George Danner

George Danner wrote:
> Once you start down the path to "Idiot-Proofing" equipment, you will soon
> learn that the average idiot is much more clever than you ever imagined!
>
> 73 George AI4VZ
>

Actually the real idiots are the ones attempting to do the idiot proofing.

I have never understood why anyone would want to build equipment that
could be used by idiots.
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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: If it plugs in, then it should work

On 8/23/15 3:33 PM, bs usb wrote:
> I have never understood why anyone would want to
> build equipment that could be used by idiots.
They try to understand their customer base? :-)

Phil W7OX
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Tony Estep

Re: If it plugs in, then it should work

In reply to this post by bs usb

On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 5:33 PM, bs usb <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> George Danner wrote:
>
>> Once you start down the path to "Idiot-Proofing" equipment, you will soon
>> learn that the average idiot is much more clever than you ever imagined!
>>
>> =============
The local Micro-Center store sells T-shirts that say "When you have it
idiot-proofed, we'll build a better idiot."

Tony KT0NY
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daleputnam

Re: If it plugs in, then it should work

In reply to this post by bs usb

George Danner wrote:
> Once you start down the path to "Idiot-Proofing" equipment, you will soon
> learn that the average idiot is much more clever than you ever imagined!
>
> 73 George AI4VZAnd keep in mind.. just one itsy thing.. this is a hobby, it is a unique tool to LEARN with, not solely for the entertainment of the masses.
Through AMATEUR radio, many strides have been made, through the auspices of "don't touch it till we make is safe!".. I can not think of ONE.. not a single advancement made in amateur radio. IF it can't be touched until it is totally safe, just exactly who proofs the floor in your bedroom every morning, who starts your coffee... ok.. too far? Who is it that proved the trips to outer space were safe? No risk there? Right. ok.. too far? So just where does it stop,... and just exactly where does one actually accept the risk of living... of being free... or is that what we are really talking about? IF you don't want to play.. ok fine.. then don't. IF you do... then learn, accept the risks and LEARN.. make notes.. review the notes.. LEARN.. if you don't like the way something is done.. build a better mousetrap.. they will come.. but do NOT try to stuff a mousetrap with a broken spring.. into my shopping bag. I still want to learn.

Have a great day,

--... ...--
Dale - WC7S in Wy

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Alan. G4GNX

Re: If it plugs in, then it should work

In reply to this post by Tony Estep

I once tried to idiot-proof a Theatre Organ console on its lift, by using a
very stout multi-way connector for power and lift control, along with much
smaller connectors for signals etc., There was no way that it was possible
to put the wrong plug in the wrong socket, not even with a hammer!!!

So what did the contractor/builders do? They did not read the large yellow
and black notice on the rear of the console that instructed them to remove
all plugs before moving the console. The result was that they gave the 2 ton
console a hefty shove to start it moving and smashed the sh*t out of the
connectors.

Well, I didn't see that one coming!

73,

Alan. G4GNX

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Estep
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2015 12:42 AM
To: Elecraft
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] If it plugs in, then it should work

The local Micro-Center store sells T-shirts that say "When you have it
idiot-proofed, we'll build a better idiot."

Tony KT0NY

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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: If it plugs in, then it should work

Honorable Mention in the Darwin Awards :-)

Phil W7OX

On 8/23/15 5:14 PM, G4GNX wrote:

> I once tried to idiot-proof a Theatre Organ
> console on its lift, by using a very stout
> multi-way connector for power and lift control,
> along with much smaller connectors for signals
> etc., There was no way that it was possible to
> put the wrong plug in the wrong socket, not even
> with a hammer!!!
>
> So what did the contractor/builders do? They did
> not read the large yellow and black notice on
> the rear of the console that instructed them to
> remove all plugs before moving the console. The
> result was that they gave the 2 ton console a
> hefty shove to start it moving and smashed the
> sh*t out of the connectors.
>
> Well, I didn't see that one coming!
>
> 73,
>
> Alan. G4GNX
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Estep
> Sent: Monday, August 24, 2015 12:42 AM
> To: Elecraft
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] If it plugs in, then it
> should work
>
> The local Micro-Center store sells T-shirts that
> say "When you have it
> idiot-proofed, we'll build a better idiot."
>
> Tony KT0NY

Vic Rosenthal

Re: If it plugs in, then it should work

In reply to this post by bs usb

Everyone is an idiot sometimes.

Vic 4X6GP/K2VCO

> On Aug 24, 2015, at 1:33 AM, bs usb <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> George Danner wrote:
>> Once you start down the path to "Idiot-Proofing" equipment, you will soon
>> learn that the average idiot is much more clever than you ever imagined!
>>
>> 73 George AI4VZ
>>
>
> Actually the real idiots are the ones attempting to do the idiot proofing.
>
> I have never understood why anyone would want to build equipment that could be used by idiots.

Edward R Cole

Re: If it plugs in, then it should work

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

Obviously you've never been in the military? (or forgot?)

The military is a big "testing pool" for "idiots" (please note the
quotes for idiot-its use is tongue-in-cheek). I used to work for
Hughes Aircraft writing "tech manuals" for the military. You could
not assume the operator knew anything technical. You told him what
to look at and what to push-twist-connect in a very rigid sequence
with big red WARNING inserted liberally throughout the
manual. Typical user was a private with no technical knowledge. He
was just going to "use it".

But George is also correct that the process of idiot-proofing is a
"fools errand".

I heard back for the military techs that worked on this stuff that
they "ripped the schematics out of the manual" and trashed the
rest. So much for my efforts.

Later in my professional life I did apply my tech writing skills
toward training unskilled personnel on how to set up portable
repeaters, towers, antennas, etc. I taught an annual "radio" class
to "refresh" their memory. It helped somewhat. They at least knew
they were in trouble with me if they broke something - ha!

73, Ed - KL7UW

-----------------
From: bs usb <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] If it plugs in, then it should work
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

George Danner wrote:
> Once you start down the path to "Idiot-Proofing" equipment, you will soon
> learn that the average idiot is much more clever than you ever imagined!
>
> 73 George AI4VZ

Actually the real idiots are the ones attempting to do the idiot proofing.

I have never understood why anyone would want to build equipment that
could be used by idiots.
<K5DKZ>

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
[hidden email]

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