Interesting Conversation about FT-5000 vs K3

I am reluctantly writing this email to the reflector with a very dangerous
subject line....but here it goes.

My good ham friend came through town on Monday and we ended up going to dinner
with the YLs.  As dinner progressed, he asked me what I thought about the
FT-5000 vs the K3.  I said that "they would have to pry my K3 out of my cold
dead hands at the end."  He said that the FT-5000 is pretty spiffy according to
the QST review and out-guns the K3.  I said the K3 is a mature radio yet has the
power to evolve to even greater "spiffy-ness."

He is current using a IC-765, which is a good solid rig, but somewhat out of
date.

I told him about the K3 and that he needed so sit down and work with one.  We
bantered back and forth and then he said something rather odd...

He said, "I think Yaesu, ICOM, and Kenwood will still be around in 10 years.  
Will Elecraft?"

I responded,  "Heck who knows?  Did you ever think Drake would leave the
business or Heathkit kick the bucket?  Do you think Ten Tec is going to be
around in 10 years?  And why do thing the Japanese companies would be any better
once you realize General Motors took it on the chin this year."

He said, "I am not sure I want to buy a rig from a QRP company or any company
that is owned by two guys.  What happens when they retired or die?"

I replied, "Elecraft has their roots in QRP which is a great deal for how they
design their radios, small, compact, and low current drain.  They are hardly an
exclusive QRP company.  But, heck, who knows who really owns some of the other
companies, it is just that we know more about Elecraft because they are very
communicative.  I don't see a lot of people having direct communication with the
owners, designers, engineers of the other companies.  Besides, I am sure they
have made plans for the future, most companies do."

My friend said, "Yea right."

Then we broke the discussion down to how the K3 is going to match the FT-5000.  
I said it was all a moot point because you have to look at not only
specifications, but service, quality, ease of upgrades, cost of add-on features,
price point, and how much you want to spend in the hobby.  We started talking
prices.  (Later on, my wife asked me...does radios cost that much now-a-days?  
She was shocked)  


So, after this long email explaining the conversation...  How do companies, like
Elecraft, Y, K, I, and T, protect their customers in the future knowing that in
10 years things could have gone south or the principals might have "moved-on?"  
Or, like everything else in the world....you spin the wheel and take your
chance.  No guarantees!

I like the two guys from California...I wish them long lives.  

Lee - K0WA



 In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply.  If you don't
have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it.  If you can't find any
Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense.  Is Common
Sense divine?

Common Sense is the image of the Creator expressing revealed truth in my mind.
-  J. Wolf
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[Bill W4ZV]

Lee Buller wrote

I like the two guys from California...I wish them long lives.

I also like those two guys from Washington (K6KR and KK7P) and wish them the same.  And I wonder if your buddy can name ONE person in the design areas of Yaesu, Kenwood or Icom?  Or ONE of the principals of those companies who's intimately involved with ham radio customers.  

BTW your buddy might also want to check the support life of Yaesu products like the FT-1000D, or their responsiveness in addressing design problems (e.g. 15 years of no attention to serious key click issues in the 1000 family).

No contest...IMHO.

73,  Bill

[wayne burdick]

> He said, "I think Yaesu, ICOM, and Kenwood will still be around in 10 years. Will Elecraft?"

Then my wife said, "You'd better be."

73,
Wayne (one of the Two Guys, with two young kids, a mortgage, and visions of future products dancing in my head),
N6KR

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[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

> So, after this long email explaining the conversation... How do
 > companies, like Elecraft, Y, K, I, and T, protect their customers
 > in the future knowing that in 10 years things could have gone
 > south or the principals might have "moved-on?"

It's not a matter of health/longevity of the principals.  Ask any of
the unfortunate owners of late model FT-1000D, FT-1000 MP MK V or
MK V Field transceivers with a bad control board or final amplifier
transistors about "long term support."  Key replacement parts simply
are not available for many of the Y, K, I radios less than 10 years
out of production.  Most amateurs simply don't consider those issues
when making a purchase decision on a multi-thousand dollar radio.

I think I'll take my chances with a small US based company where
the business is the livelihood of the principals.  Give me a company
in which I know the principals and can reach out to them rather than
a large off-shore based company that is a subsidiary of a mega multi-
national corporation in which the amateur radio division can be sold
or shuttered if some CFO and Board of Directors decide that continued
operation is no longer profitable or even in the "strategic interest"
of the corporation.

Yaesu and Icom both grew from small amateur radio focused companies
as a result of their founders' interest in amateur radio but 50
years later the amateur radio businesses are insignificant parts of
much larger corporations.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV

On 12/1/2010 10:14 AM, Lee Buller wrote:

>
> I am reluctantly writing this email to the reflector with a very dangerous
> subject line....but here it goes.
>
> My good ham friend came through town on Monday and we ended up going to dinner
> with the YLs.  As dinner progressed, he asked me what I thought about the
> FT-5000 vs the K3.  I said that "they would have to pry my K3 out of my cold
> dead hands at the end."  He said that the FT-5000 is pretty spiffy according to
> the QST review and out-guns the K3.  I said the K3 is a mature radio yet has the
> power to evolve to even greater "spiffy-ness."
>
> He is current using a IC-765, which is a good solid rig, but somewhat out of
> date.
>
> I told him about the K3 and that he needed so sit down and work with one.  We
> bantered back and forth and then he said something rather odd...
>
> He said, "I think Yaesu, ICOM, and Kenwood will still be around in 10 years.
> Will Elecraft?"
>
> I responded,  "Heck who knows?  Did you ever think Drake would leave the
> business or Heathkit kick the bucket?  Do you think Ten Tec is going to be
> around in 10 years?  And why do thing the Japanese companies would be any better
> once you realize General Motors took it on the chin this year."
>
> He said, "I am not sure I want to buy a rig from a QRP company or any company
> that is owned by two guys.  What happens when they retired or die?"
>
> I replied, "Elecraft has their roots in QRP which is a great deal for how they
> design their radios, small, compact, and low current drain.  They are hardly an
> exclusive QRP company.  But, heck, who knows who really owns some of the other
> companies, it is just that we know more about Elecraft because they are very
> communicative.  I don't see a lot of people having direct communication with the
> owners, designers, engineers of the other companies.  Besides, I am sure they
> have made plans for the future, most companies do."
>
> My friend said, "Yea right."
>
> Then we broke the discussion down to how the K3 is going to match the FT-5000.
> I said it was all a moot point because you have to look at not only
> specifications, but service, quality, ease of upgrades, cost of add-on features,
> price point, and how much you want to spend in the hobby.  We started talking
> prices.  (Later on, my wife asked me...does radios cost that much now-a-days?
> She was shocked)
>
>
> So, after this long email explaining the conversation...  How do companies, like
> Elecraft, Y, K, I, and T, protect their customers in the future knowing that in
> 10 years things could have gone south or the principals might have "moved-on?"
> Or, like everything else in the world....you spin the wheel and take your
> chance.  No guarantees!
>
> I like the two guys from California...I wish them long lives.
>
> Lee - K0WA
>
>
>
>   In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply.  If you don't
> have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it.  If you can't find any
> Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense.  Is Common
> Sense divine?
>
> Common Sense is the image of the Creator expressing revealed truth in my mind.
> -  J. Wolf
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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[WA2SI]

Soundly seconded! I also like the fact that my dollars went to folks who
live, work and spend their earnings right here in the USA. I felt that way
before the economic crisis when I purchased my K1 & K2 and feel it is
especially critical now that we do all we can to support our own
infrastructure.

Just drive around town... ANY town and witness all the "mom & pop" stores
that closed down because we wanted to take advantage of those bargains from
that huge mega-chain (Pick any one.) with all the cheaply imported goods and
their IT and/or telephone customer service departments outsourced offshore.
Additionally, check out how they treat their labor. I'd rather spend a few
bucks more, thanks.

Wayne and Eric,

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I'm diggin' signals out of the noise floor
that I never even heard before at a reasonable cost AND my hard earned dough
(or a portion thereof, at least) is making it to a dinner table right here
in the USA; NOT  Tokyo or Osaka.

As always, take care es...

Vy 73 de Bert
WA2SI

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Buller" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 10:14 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] Interesting Conversation about FT-5000 vs K3


> I like the two guys from California...I wish them long lives.
>
> Lee - K0WA

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[Guy, K2AV]

Isn't it amazing the subjects that come up when someone's favorite
non-Elecraft radio company is getting it's butt kicked in the contest
wars.  That "more K3 than anything else combined" at the WRTC really
rankled some nerves.  I don't think I have ever heard "will the
company still be here in 10 years" used before in a discussion about
what radio to buy.  They are really getting desperate.

73, Guy.

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 10:14 AM, Lee Buller <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I am reluctantly writing this email to the reflector with a very dangerous
> subject line....but here it goes.
>
> My good ham friend came through town on Monday and we ended up going to dinner
> with the YLs.  As dinner progressed, he asked me what I thought about the
> FT-5000 vs the K3.  I said that "they would have to pry my K3 out of my cold
> dead hands at the end."  He said that the FT-5000 is pretty spiffy according to
> the QST review and out-guns the K3.  I said the K3 is a mature radio yet has the
> power to evolve to even greater "spiffy-ness."
>
> He is current using a IC-765, which is a good solid rig, but somewhat out of
> date.
>
> I told him about the K3 and that he needed so sit down and work with one.  We
> bantered back and forth and then he said something rather odd...
>
> He said, "I think Yaesu, ICOM, and Kenwood will still be around in 10 years.
> Will Elecraft?"
>
> I responded,  "Heck who knows?  Did you ever think Drake would leave the
> business or Heathkit kick the bucket?  Do you think Ten Tec is going to be
> around in 10 years?  And why do thing the Japanese companies would be any better
> once you realize General Motors took it on the chin this year."
>
> He said, "I am not sure I want to buy a rig from a QRP company or any company
> that is owned by two guys.  What happens when they retired or die?"
>
> I replied, "Elecraft has their roots in QRP which is a great deal for how they
> design their radios, small, compact, and low current drain.  They are hardly an
> exclusive QRP company.  But, heck, who knows who really owns some of the other
> companies, it is just that we know more about Elecraft because they are very
> communicative.  I don't see a lot of people having direct communication with the
> owners, designers, engineers of the other companies.  Besides, I am sure they
> have made plans for the future, most companies do."
>
> My friend said, "Yea right."
>
> Then we broke the discussion down to how the K3 is going to match the FT-5000.
> I said it was all a moot point because you have to look at not only
> specifications, but service, quality, ease of upgrades, cost of add-on features,
> price point, and how much you want to spend in the hobby.  We started talking
> prices.  (Later on, my wife asked me...does radios cost that much now-a-days?
> She was shocked)
>
>
> So, after this long email explaining the conversation...  How do companies, like
> Elecraft, Y, K, I, and T, protect their customers in the future knowing that in
> 10 years things could have gone south or the principals might have "moved-on?"
> Or, like everything else in the world....you spin the wheel and take your
> chance.  No guarantees!
>
> I like the two guys from California...I wish them long lives.
>
> Lee - K0WA
>
>
>
>  In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply.  If you don't
> have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it.  If you can't find any
> Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense.  Is Common
> Sense divine?
>
> Common Sense is the image of the Creator expressing revealed truth in my mind.
> -  J. Wolf
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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[Scott Ellington]

Another interesting question is how any manufacturer of ham radio gear is going to stay in business once we aging boomers stop buying new radios.  

73,

Scott   K9MA  (Check 66)


Scott Ellington
Madison, Wisconsin
USA



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[Guy, K2AV]

Now that I'm not "saving for retirement" any more -- I AM retired --
I have more money to spend on radios than ever.   :>)

Of course it helps that I paid off all those pesky loans a while back
and don't owe anyone a dime on anything.  Also helps I've always been
a tightwad, even on radios.

73, Guy.

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 10:53 AM, Scott Ellington
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Another interesting question is how any manufacturer of ham radio gear is going to stay in business once we aging boomers stop buying new radios.
>
> 73,
>
> Scott   K9MA  (Check 66)
>
>
> Scott Ellington
> Madison, Wisconsin
> USA
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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[Matt Zilmer]

Yeah, but why stop?  I finally got my 83-year old neighbor to
investigate the K3.  This is the guy with clockwise syndrome and a
30-y/o GriefKit splatter-box.  

He literally couldn't believe the specs and pricing.  He's makin' a
move this week - xmas for himself I believe.

73,
matt W6NIA
At age 53, live like you're 25.  My motto.


On Wed, 01 Dec 2010 09:53:37 -0600, you wrote:

>Another interesting question is how any manufacturer of ham radio gear is going to stay in business once we aging boomers stop buying new radios.  
>
>73,
>
>Scott   K9MA  (Check 66)
>
>
>Scott Ellington
>Madison, Wisconsin
>USA
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________________
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>
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[David Cutter]

Bert, I'm happy to spend my hard-earned $ on a foreign company, ie off our
shores, like many others around the world who are not American.

David
G3UNA


 I also like the fact that my dollars went to folks who
> live, work and spend their earnings right here in the USA. I felt that way
> before the economic crisis when I purchased my K1 & K2 and feel it is
> especially critical now that we do all we can to support our own
> infrastructure.
>
> Vy 73 de Bert
> WA2SI
>
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[Jim Sheldon]

Yup,
I just worked ZL8X on 30 meters a while ago.  My IC-7000 (soon to be replaced by a K3/P3 combo) could barely hear them off my Butternut HF2V vertical, but once I got the split set to where they were listening, grabbed 'em first call.  I know they have some K3's there and I'd almost bet dollars to donuts that the op on the Kermadec end was running one.  I'd also bet that if I had a K3 in place of that little IC-7000, I wouldn't have had any trouble hearing them at all.  

Jim - W0EB

> Isn't it amazing the subjects that come up when someone's favorite
> non-Elecraft radio company is getting it's butt kicked in the
> contest wars.  That "more K3 than anything else combined" at the
> WRTC really rankled some nerves.  I don't think I have ever heard
> "will the company still be here in 10 years" used before in a
> discussion about what radio to buy.  They are really getting
> desperate.
>
> 73, Guy.

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[Alan Bloom]

On Wed, 2010-12-01 at 07:14 -0800, Lee Buller wrote:
> He said, "I think Yaesu, ICOM, and Kenwood will still be around in 10 years.  
> Will Elecraft?"
>
> I responded,  "Heck who knows?  Did you ever think Drake would leave the
> business or Heathkit kick the bucket?

I worked for Drake back in the days when they were still in the ham
radio business.  It's interesting to note that their service department
continued to fully support the old ham gear for many years after they
stopped making it.

Nobody was left with an "orphan".  We'll see if GM does as well with my
Saturn station wagon.  :=)

Al N1AL



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[Able2fly]

What has me biting my fingernails is the value of Elecraft as a company. How long can the "two guys" resist the inevitable buy out offers? THAT is the question !!






-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]>
To: Lee Buller <[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wed, Dec 1, 2010 10:38 am
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Interesting Conversation about FT-5000 vs K3


> He said, "I think Yaesu, ICOM, and Kenwood will still be around in 10 years.
ill Elecraft?"
Then my wife said, "You'd better be."
73,
ayne (one of the Two Guys, with two young kids, a mortgage, and visions of
uture products dancing in my head),
6KR
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ost: mailto:[hidden email]
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[MontyS]

Please, please don't get interested in public safety, avionics, marine, NASA, CB, audio, video, 3D, electronics.
Happy New Year - 73, Monty K2DLJ


>> He said, "I think Yaesu, ICOM, and Kenwood will still be around in 10 years. Will Elecraft?"
>
> Then my wife said, "You'd better be."
>
> 73,
> Wayne (one of the Two Guys, with two young kids, a mortgage, and visions of future products dancing in my head),
> N6KR
>

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[Randy Moore]

Right on, Wayne!

Randy, KS4L

On Dec 1, 2010, at 9:37 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> He said, "I think Yaesu, ICOM, and Kenwood will still be around in 10 years. Will Elecraft?"
>
> Then my wife said, "You'd better be."
>
> 73,
> Wayne (one of the Two Guys, with two young kids, a mortgage, and visions of future products dancing in my head),
> N6KR
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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[Vic K2VCO]

The Japanese companies do not necessarily provide parts or service for their 'obsolete'
rigs for an extended time. I sent a 6-year-old Kenwood 2-meter rig to their 'official'
service center and was told that they don't have parts anymore. I managed to fix it myself.

You can't count on extended support for anything electronic these days. Elecraft is an
exception -- I know I could get support for my K2 if I needed it, and it is around 10
years old!

On 12/1/2010 7:14 AM, Lee Buller wrote:

> So, after this long email explaining the conversation...  How do companies, like
> Elecraft, Y, K, I, and T, protect their customers in the future knowing that in
> 10 years things could have gone south or the principals might have "moved-on?"
> Or, like everything else in the world....you spin the wheel and take your
> chance.  No guarantees!


--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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[n7ws]

Herb Johnson leaps to mind.

http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/hamradio/silentkey.html

Wes,  N7WS

--- On Wed, 12/1/10, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What has me biting my fingernails is
> the value of Elecraft as a company. How long can the "two
> guys" resist the inevitable buy out offers? THAT is the
> question !!



     
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[alorona]

What you should have done at the beginning of the conversation, Lee, is sent an
e-mail to Wayne and Eric (and also to the president of Vertex). By the time
dessert came around, you could probably have read him the reply from Elecraft.


On 12/1/2010 7:14 AM, Lee Buller wrote:

> So, after this long email explaining the conversation...  How do companies,
>like
> Elecraft, Y, K, I, and T, protect their customers in the future knowing that
in
> 10 years things could have gone south or the principals might have "moved-on?"
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[n7ws]

We are in the same boat.  I've been working on and off on a LPD antenna to replace my HB 20-meter monobander.  After chasing ZL8X around the bands using just a 40/80 meter inverted vee (22 band/modes worked) I was saying to my wife that maybe I should just breakdown and buy something.

She said, "How much?"  I said, "About $1500 or so."  She said, "Buy it, we have the money."

Of course we have the money because I've been frugal.  Also she thinks I'll get the bathroom remodeled faster if I'm not working on antennas. :-)

Whenever I've thought that there was something that I absolutely, positively couldn't live without, I have just waited a month to see how I felt then.  Usually, I could live without it, if not, I bought it.

Wes  N7WS

--- On Wed, 12/1/10, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Now that I'm not "saving for
> retirement" any more -- I AM retired --
> I have more money to spend on radios than
> ever.   :>)
>
> Of course it helps that I paid off all those pesky loans a
> while back
> and don't owe anyone a dime on anything.  Also helps
> I've always been
> a tightwad, even on radios.
>
> 73, Guy.

     
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[AC7AC]

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