Internal Antenna Tuner and SPE Expert Amplifier Questions

[pastormg]

Good Morning,
It's Mark Griffin KB3Z. I was looking at an SPE Expert amplifier and I see it has an internal antenna tuner which can handle SWR's of up to 4:0. But, I was wondering if I connected the output of my K3 to the input of the amplifier and then the antenna to the output of the amplifier, If I used the K3 internal antenna tuner to decrease the SWR to a reasonable level would this work? I don't currently have the internal antenna tuner in the K3. It is perhaps a bad question to ask, but I am currently using a Palstar AT2K as my antenna tuner. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.  Mark Griffin, KB3Z
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[Nr4c]

With an outboard amp attached you should BYPASS the internal ATU as it is looking through the amp and therefore can't help match the ant to the amp.

...bill nr4c

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

[hidden email] wrote:

>Good Morning,
>It's Mark Griffin KB3Z. I was looking at an SPE Expert amplifier and I see it has an internal antenna tuner which can handle SWR's of up to 4:0. But, I was wondering if I connected the output of my K3 to the input of the amplifier and then the antenna to the output of the amplifier, If I used the K3 internal antenna tuner to decrease the SWR to a reasonable level would this work? I don't currently have the internal antenna tuner in the K3. It is perhaps a bad question to ask, but I am currently using a Palstar AT2K as my antenna tuner. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.  Mark Griffin, KB3Z
>______________________________________________________________
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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Mark,

The short answer is no.

The only way to reduce the SWR on an antenna is to connect the tuner
between the antenna and the output of an amplifier.  That is where the
SPE internal tuner is located.

The K3 internal tuner would only attempt to match any impedance
difference between the K3 output and the amplifier input.  With a well
designed amplifier, the input should be close to 50 ohms resistive and a
tuner should not be needed at that point.

You may still have to use your Palstar tuner between the ampifier and
the antenna if your SWR is in excess of 4.0.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/9/2013 8:19 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Good Morning,
> It's Mark Griffin KB3Z. I was looking at an SPE Expert amplifier and I see it has an internal antenna tuner which can handle SWR's of up to 4:0. But, I was wondering if I connected the output of my K3 to the input of the amplifier and then the antenna to the output of the amplifier, If I used the K3 internal antenna tuner to decrease the SWR to a reasonable level would this work? I don't currently have the internal antenna tuner in the K3. It is perhaps a bad question to ask, but I am currently using a Palstar AT2K as my antenna tuner. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.  Mark Griffin, KB3Z
>

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[Keith Heimbold]

Mark,

I own a SPE 1K and I would not use the internal tuner to tune any antenna above 2.5:1 with it unless you back down on power output significantly. I have found that once you raise output power above 500-600W with the SPE 1K it sometimes goes into protection mode with poorer matching antennas that have higher SWR. I found this with my S33 Mosley on 40m which had a big dip on the lower end of 40m before I retuned the antenna by extending it for the lower band setting.

There are also issues with warranty for using an external turner with the SPE 1K that you should look into.

Overall my opinion is that it is a really excellent amplifier but so far only have owner ten months. It is great for remote operations if you are going that route.

Good luck!

Keith
AK6ZZ

Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos

> On Dec 9, 2013, at 5:19 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> Good Morning,
> It's Mark Griffin KB3Z. I was looking at an SPE Expert amplifier and I see it has an internal antenna tuner which can handle SWR's of up to 4:0. But, I was wondering if I connected the output of my K3 to the input of the amplifier and then the antenna to the output of the amplifier, If I used the K3 internal antenna tuner to decrease the SWR to a reasonable level would this work? I don't currently have the internal antenna tuner in the K3. It is perhaps a bad question to ask, but I am currently using a Palstar AT2K as my antenna tuner. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.  Mark Griffin, KB3Z
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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[Keith Heimbold]

Mark,

I should have written to be clear a big dip higher in the 40m band so a high swr on the band edge low in 40m band. Sorry it is still early out here on west coast.

Good luck!

Keith
AK6ZZ

Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos

> On Dec 9, 2013, at 6:40 AM, "Keith Heimbold" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> I own a SPE 1K and I would not use the internal tuner to tune any antenna above 2.5:1 with it unless you back down on power output significantly. I have found that once you raise output power above 500-600W with the SPE 1K it sometimes goes into protection mode with poorer matching antennas that have higher SWR. I found this with my S33 Mosley on 40m which had a big dip on the lower end of 40m before I retuned the antenna by extending it for the lower band setting.
>
> There are also issues with warranty for using an external turner with the SPE 1K that you should look into.
>
> Overall my opinion is that it is a really excellent amplifier but so far only have owner ten months. It is great for remote operations if you are going that route.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Keith
> AK6ZZ
>
> Sent from my iPhone please excuse typos
>
>> On Dec 9, 2013, at 5:19 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>> Good Morning,
>> It's Mark Griffin KB3Z. I was looking at an SPE Expert amplifier and I see it has an internal antenna tuner which can handle SWR's of up to 4:0. But, I was wondering if I connected the output of my K3 to the input of the amplifier and then the antenna to the output of the amplifier, If I used the K3 internal antenna tuner to decrease the SWR to a reasonable level would this work? I don't currently have the internal antenna tuner in the K3. It is perhaps a bad question to ask, but I am currently using a Palstar AT2K as my antenna tuner. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.  Mark Griffin, KB3Z
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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[Charlie T, K3ICH]

The only possible situation where the connection you describe would function
is when the INPUT SWR to your amp is not good.  This is a quite common
method of matching HB amps where their input impedance isn't THAT bad and
the builder doesn't want to bother with a separate set of switched input
matching networks.  An external tuner, or one inside the amp, such as an LDG
for example is used to match the tube(s).  However,  in order to do this,
you have to let the input tuner do it's thing only when you have a good 50
Ohm dummy load on the amp.  THEN, after the input is matched, you can switch
in your real antenna & tuner and adjust it for best SWR to the antenna.  At
this point, it is essential that the input auto tuner is NOT still trying to
find a match.

73, Charlie k3ICH


----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Internal Antenna Tuner and SPE Expert
AmplifierQuestions


> Mark,
>
> The short answer is no.
>
>

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[Fred Smith-2]

Hi Bill

No the internal tuner won't help with the amp in line but still one of the
very best internal tuners there are.

I have 3 different HF amps I use one is the KPA500 HF/6m with the KAT500
tuner very good auto tuner up to about 600w 6-160m.

My second amp is an Alpha 9500 HF with auto tuner at <3:1. I still have my
Alpha 87A HF and used 2 tuners with it the first was a Palstar AT4K manual
tuner sold it (that was a mistake) and now looking for a backup tuner a used
Palstar AT5K.

My current legal limit + tuner is a Palstar HF-AUTO the new style, much
better than the old style one I had and got rid of and now sold elsewhere. I
have been using it now for 18 mo or so with no problems and quite a few
firmware releases to improve it even more. The nice part about it is that it
can be used with any amp only an RF connection, Auto or Manual tuning you
can choose.


73,
Fred/N0AZZ
K3 Ser # 6730--KX3 # 5210--K2/100 # 6470-KAT100
P3/SVGA--KAT500--W2
Amps Elecraft KPA500 HF/6m--Alpha's 9500 HF--87A HF--Mirage B-5030-G
300+w--(2) B-5016-G's 165w 2m



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of bill conkling
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 7:51 AM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Internal Antenna Tuner and SPE Expert Amplifier
Questions

With an outboard amp attached you should BYPASS the internal ATU as it is
looking through the amp and therefore can't help match the ant to the amp.

...bill nr4c

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

[hidden email] wrote:

>Good Morning,
>It's Mark Griffin KB3Z. I was looking at an SPE Expert amplifier and I
>see it has an internal antenna tuner which can handle SWR's of up to
>4:0. But, I was wondering if I connected the output of my K3 to the
>input of the amplifier and then the antenna to the output of the
>amplifier, If I used the K3 internal antenna tuner to decrease the SWR
>to a reasonable level would this work? I don't currently have the
>internal antenna tuner in the K3. It is perhaps a bad question to ask,
>but I am currently using a Palstar AT2K as my antenna tuner. Any help
>or advice would be greatly appreciated.  Mark Griffin, KB3Z
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
>list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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[Cookie]

I just finished reading the SPE instruction manual.  They say that the input match of the SPE Expert is good enough that they recommend turning the internal tuner of the driving transceiver OFF.  The recommend that you do not cascade a tuner such as the Palstar on the output of the SPE.  They do not mention a manual tuner at the antenna, but I would think it to be OK as that is what a Gamma or T match on a beam would be, as well as other matching devices.  I think that the intent is to use the SPE tuner even if you are running the K3 barefoot but I have not yet completed my installation and put my SPE Expert in service.
 
Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart


________________________________
 From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 7:19 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] Internal Antenna Tuner and SPE Expert Amplifier Questions
 

Good Morning,
It's Mark Griffin KB3Z. I was looking at an SPE Expert amplifier and I see it has an internal antenna tuner which can handle SWR's of up to 4:0. But, I was wondering if I connected the output of my K3 to the input of the amplifier and then the antenna to the output of the amplifier, If I used the K3 internal antenna tuner to decrease the SWR to a reasonable level would this work? I don't currently have the internal antenna tuner in the K3. It is perhaps a bad question to ask, but I am currently using a Palstar AT2K as my antenna tuner. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.  Mark Griffin, KB3Z
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[k6xt]

No indication which SPE amp. It makes a difference because IIRC the 1K
tuner can't be bypassed. The 2K can. I use the 2K-FA. There's no need to
use the K3 tuner with the 2K as its input SWR is satisfactorily low. 30W
from K3 drives 2K to the legal limit. Off, the 2K tuner is switched out
of the ckt. In that configuration if your coax needs tuner help you'd
have to use the internal K3 tuner, or an external box.

If the external box can handle output of the SPE amp I'd connect it
between amp and antenna. Given a choice I'd want the K3 internal tuner
for convenience if nothing else. It remembers its settings per band so
your task is only to switch it on or off as needed.

FYI the 2K-FA in standby makes little - if any - fan noise. Not much
penalty to have it on whenever the K3 is on. There's a provision for the
2K-FA to receive an "I've just been turned on/off" signal from the K3
that also turns on, and off, the 2K-FA. Don't know about the 1K.

73 Art K6XT~~
Success is going from failure to failure without a loss of enthusiasm.
ARRL, GMCC, CW OPS, SDDXC, NAQCC
ARRL TA

On 2013-12-10 10:00, [hidden email] wrote:

> Re: [Elecraft] Internal Antenna Tuner and SPE Expert Amplifier.eml
>
> Subject:
> Re: [Elecraft] Internal Antenna Tuner and SPE Expert Amplifier Questions
> From:
> WILLIS COOKE <[hidden email]>
> Date:
> 2013-12-09 14:51
>
> To:
> "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>,
> "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>
>
> I just finished reading the SPE instruction manual.  They say that the input match of the SPE Expert is good enough that they recommend turning the internal tuner of the driving transceiver OFF.  The recommend that you do not cascade a tuner such as the Palstar on the output of the SPE.  They do not mention a manual tuner at the antenna, but I would think it to be OK as that is what a Gamma or T match on a beam would be, as well as other matching devices.  I think that the intent is to use the SPE tuner even if you are running the K3 barefoot but I have not yet completed my installation and put my SPE Expert in service.
>  
> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
> K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart
>
>
> ________________________________
>   From:"[hidden email]"  <[hidden email]>
> To:[hidden email]  
> Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 7:19 AM
> Subject: [Elecraft] Internal Antenna Tuner and SPE Expert Amplifier Questions
>  
>
> Good Morning,
> It's Mark Griffin KB3Z. I was looking at an SPE Expert amplifier and I see it has an internal antenna tuner which can handle SWR's of up to 4:0. But, I was wondering if I connected the output of my K3 to the input of the amplifier and then the antenna to the output of the amplifier, If I used the K3 internal antenna tuner to decrease the SWR to a reasonable level would this work? I don't currently have the internal antenna tuner in the K3. It is perhaps a bad question to ask, but I am currently using a Palstar AT2K as my antenna tuner. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.  Mark Griffin, KB3Z

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[Reinaldo Leandro]

I have been using and Expert 1K with my K3 for the last 4 years. A small and
excellent setup for an apartment.  
My antenna is a compromise no resonant sloper on most of the HF bands, I
have an automatic MFJ tuner ahead of the amplifier. Even barefoot I never
need the antenna tuner on the K3.
It is necessary to adjust the 1K for the default 50 ohms output as explained
in the manual.
73

Reinaldo, YV5AM

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