K1 or KX1? Looking mainly at receiver

[Jeremy Cowgar-2]

I am looking for a backpack rig (3-5 day backpacking trips). I know the
KX1 is more portable but I am wondering specifically about the receiver
performance between the two. Also in regards to the K2. I know the K2 is
a better reciever but I'm coming from one disappointment. I purchased
another rig that I was going to use as my backpacking rig but it's
reciever is not that great and nothing I do makes it better. I may want
the world, but I would like to have a decent receiver. On top of that,
as long as it transmits and is decent on batteries, the other
functionality is marginal on my list of priorities.

Thanks for any comments,

Jeremy
KB8LFA
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[David F. Reed]

Jeremy,

I own a K2 and a KX1, and have some opinions; but I think there is no
hard and fast answer.

The K2 is superb; its receiver is about as good as my Icom IC-7800; no
joke.  Yes there are a few conditions in which I prefer the Icom, but to
me, that is an amazing feat given the price difference.  My only
suggestion that might improve the K2 receiver performance factor for me
would be improving the noise blanker & noise reduction DSP somewhat.

When you say "as long as it can transmit" do you mean CW only?  I assume
so from your consideration of a KX1.

I have not had my KX1 long enough or used it enough under varying
circumstance, but it is more portable and has some nifty features, and
is easier on the battery, and I do really like it.

Perhaps you could share with us what rig you were disappointed by, and
in what ways; since all solutions are compromises to some degree, it may
help us better advise you.

73 de W5SV, Dave

Jeremy Cowgar wrote:

> I am looking for a backpack rig (3-5 day backpacking trips). I know
> the KX1 is more portable but I am wondering specifically about the
> receiver performance between the two. Also in regards to the K2. I
> know the K2 is a better reciever but I'm coming from one
> disappointment. I purchased another rig that I was going to use as my
> backpacking rig but it's reciever is not that great and nothing I do
> makes it better. I may want the world, but I would like to have a
> decent receiver. On top of that, as long as it transmits and is decent
> on batteries, the other functionality is marginal on my list of
> priorities.
>
> Thanks for any comments,
>
> Jeremy
> KB8LFA

--
David F. Reed  - W5SV -     cell: 512 585-1057

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[Jeremy Cowgar-2]

David F. Reed wrote:

> Jeremy,
>
> I own a K2 and a KX1, and have some opinions; but I think there is no
> hard and fast answer.
>
> The K2 is superb; its receiver is about as good as my Icom IC-7800; no
> joke.  Yes there are a few conditions in which I prefer the Icom, but
> to me, that is an amazing feat given the price difference.  My only
> suggestion that might improve the K2 receiver performance factor for
> me would be improving the noise blanker & noise reduction DSP somewhat.
>
> When you say "as long as it can transmit" do you mean CW only?  I
> assume so from your consideration of a KX1.
>
> I have not had my KX1 long enough or used it enough under varying
> circumstance, but it is more portable and has some nifty features, and
> is easier on the battery, and I do really like it.
>
> Perhaps you could share with us what rig you were disappointed by, and
> in what ways; since all solutions are compromises to some degree, it
> may help us better advise you.

I don't want to since all the other people I've talked to seem to have a
fine rig. I don't want to degrade it for something that may have been my
mistake. I have run into a few other people that are having my same
problem though. I really don't think it was my building of the rig that
caused the problem because I am an experienced builder that was very
carefull. I have built many kits (OHR-100A, 38 Special, Rock Mite, ZM-2,
Ten Tec 30m, K2 (#600), KD1JV's Digial SWR/Power meter, etc...) all
those are great rigs and work as expected.

The rig I am comparing to is an IC-703 which has a pretty good reciever
in it and I don't expect any of the rigs to compare to it, but I do
expect them to at least hear that signals are present when on my 703
they are copyable w/little difficulty. Is my expectation too high? I no
longer have my K2, I was dumb and sold it to get into satellite ops.
Today I rarely do sats but have remained constant with QRP.

Jeremy
KB8LFA

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[Matt and Kelly]

"(3-5 day backpacking trips)"

If it were me, I'd take the KX1. Smaller, lighter, perfect
for a 3-5 day backpack trip.

But then, that's just my .02c

Matt - K7OE

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 10:13:13 -0400
  Jeremy Cowgar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am looking for a backpack rig (3-5 day backpacking
>trips). I know the KX1 is more portable but I am
>wondering specifically about the receiver performance
>between the two. Also in regards to the K2. I know the K2
>is a better reciever but I'm coming from one
>disappointment. I purchased another rig that I was going
>to use as my backpacking rig but it's reciever is not
>that great and nothing I do makes it better. I may want
>the world, but I would like to have a decent receiver. On
>top of that, as long as it transmits and is decent on
>batteries, the other functionality is marginal on my list
>of priorities.
>
> Thanks for any comments,
>
> Jeremy
> KB8LFA

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[k6dgw]

> On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 10:13:13 -0400
>  Jeremy Cowgar <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I am looking for a backpack rig (3-5 day backpacking trips). I know
>> the KX1 is more portable but I am wondering specifically about the
>> receiver performance between the two. Also in regards to the K2. I
>> know the K2 is a better reciever but I'm coming from one
>> disappointment. I purchased another rig that I was going to use as my
>> backpacking rig but it's reciever is not that great and nothing I do
>> makes it better. I may want the world, but I would like to have a
>> decent receiver. On top of that, as long as it transmits and is decent
>> on batteries, the other functionality is marginal on my list of
>> priorities.

The KX1 is hard to beat for your need.  The Rx is about as good as
you're going to find in that size radio, it is light, and with the
paddle and ATU, is really trail-ready.  I've been powering mine with an
850 maH Li-polymer battery I got at the local RC Model shop that weighs
an ounce to two.  12V for about 4W, and it easily lasts thru a Spartan
Sprint.  Actually, it lasted through a dozen or so QSO's while on a
15-day cruise through the Panama Canal this spring.  My only complaint
when using the KX1 in the S. Sprint is that at 1.5 hours, I kind of run
out of people to work because everyone has gone to 80m.

Fred K6DGW
Auburn CA CM98lw

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[Mike Morrow-3]

Jeremy wrote:

>I know the KX1 is more portable but I am wondering specifically
>about the receiver performance between the two.

If properly built, the K1 has a somewhat better receiver than the KX1 in most areas.  The advantages of the K1 receiver over that of the KX1 are:
(1) Bands of operation.  The K1 offers 15m in addition to the bands on the KX1.  This is important, even in waning solar cycles, because when it's open 15m is one of the finest of QRP bands.  An additional two-band board will let you add 80m and 17m.  The clocking limitations of the direct digital synthesis (DDS) chip in the KX1 prevent operation on bands much above 20m.
(2) Receiver I.F. filtering.  The K1 has a four-pole crystal filter.  The KX1 has a three-pole filter.
(3) More natural tuning.  The K1 has an LC VFO which tunes as fast or as slow as you turn the dial.  The KX1 has step-wise DDS tuning, with manually selectable tuning steps.  Not as natural, IMHO.
(4) Cleaner RF response since the K1 has an LC VFO for its local oscillator (LO).  The KX1 uses a DDS (without PLL) for the LO.  All DDS generation schemes (except DDS-locked PLL systems) have spurious outputs which adversely affect recever performance.
(5) Good internal speaker on the K1.  No speaker on the KX1.  I don't like to be tied to the radio with a headset if I'm just casually listening to a QSO.
(6) Front mounted controls.  I hate top mounted controls, except as a concession to simplifying the design and reducing the cost of a rig.   I do not consider them "trail friendly."

In the transmitter arena, the K1 offers higher power output if needed, lower spurious output (that DDS thing again), and most importantly the K1 ATU (KAT1) is a considerably wider range tuner compared to that of the KX1.

However, in real life, whether you will notice some of these K1 advantages is open to question.  The KX1 is indeed a fine little rig.  Some of the KX1 advantges over the K1 are:
(1)  DDS gives crystal-like temperature stability, far better than the K1 (though the K1 is much better in this area than I would have expected for its LC VFO).
(2)  The KX1 can tune a wide segment of the HF spectrum and can thus serve as a small shortwave receiver for other things besides ham radio (SW broadcast stations and utility stations, etc.).   The K1 covers only only the CW segments of its ham bands.
(3)  The KX1 receiver can function in either LSB or USB mode.  You can tune the phone portion of 40m and 20m with it.  The K1 receiver can only function in LSB mode.
(4)  A host of nice bells and whistles, like lighted frequency display, and audio annunciation (can be operated blind).  The K1 has neither.
(5)  Very small bulk and light weight, even compared to the K1 (unless you start making extras like an external speaker for your KX1).

I chose the K1 five years ago, three years before the KX1 became available.  I would still chose it today, but I can understand the popularity of the KX1 especially if 15m isn't required.  You can hardly go wrong either way.

73,
Mike / KK5F
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[EricJ-2]

I got a K1 instead of a KX1 mainly because most of my field trips are day
packing or car camping, not backpacking. The K1 is an exceptional performer,
but I if my interests were in a backpacking rig, I would have gone with the
KX1.

I haven't been backpacking in a long time, but, from experience, at the end
of the day, radio wasn't usually uppermost on my mind. Between all the
"chores" necessary when making camp and spending some time with hiking
friends or star gazing, you may find you will do a lot less radio than you
had planned to do. The K1 with accessories is a lot of stuff to drag around
if you don't use it much. The KX1 will be less of a burden.

I think a realistic assessment of your needs will point to the right choice
for you. The K1 and KX1 overlap in a lot of areas, but they really do serve
different purposes.

Eric
KE6US
www.ke6us.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 9:59 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K1 or KX1? Looking mainly at receiver

"(3-5 day backpacking trips)"

If it were me, I'd take the KX1. Smaller, lighter, perfect for a 3-5 day
backpack trip.

But then, that's just my .02c

Matt - K7OE

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 10:13:13 -0400
  Jeremy Cowgar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am looking for a backpack rig (3-5 day backpacking trips). I know
>the KX1 is more portable but I am wondering specifically about the
>receiver performance between the two. Also in regards to the K2. I know
>the K2 is a better reciever but I'm coming from one disappointment. I
>purchased another rig that I was going to use as my backpacking rig but
>it's reciever is not that great and nothing I do makes it better. I may
>want the world, but I would like to have a decent receiver. On top of
>that, as long as it transmits and is decent on batteries, the other
>functionality is marginal on my list of priorities.
>
> Thanks for any comments,
>
> Jeremy
> KB8LFA

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[Bruce Grubbs]

I've owned both a K1 and KX1 and I find the receiver performance to be about
the same. For backpacking, the KX1 wins hands down.

72,
Bruce
N7CEE
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[Jeremy Cowgar-2]

Thanks to so all those (many, many) who have responded. Got a lot of
positive feedback on both. I purchased a KX1 today.

Thanks!

Jeremy
KB8LFA

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[Mike Morrow-3]

It was reported:

> ... the KX1 wins handsdown for backpacking...

Strange!  Before the KX1 came out, the K1 was generally acknowledged as the
best multi-band backpacking rig available.  It is no less suitable for that
task today.

If one is happy with the limited number of bands covered by the KX1, and
recognizes that there is absolutely **no** physical way that KX1 receiver RF
performance can match that of a properly constructed  K1 in any area other
than VFO stability, and that the ATU in the KX1 can't come close to the
matching range of the K1's KAT1, then the KX1 is a great choice.  On the
other hand, if RF performance *on the ham CW bands* is important, the K1
stands as the best of the two.

When I'm out in the boonies, I want the best possible RF performance on the
ham CW bands that I can get in a small package.  The K1 hasn't been shaken
from that position.

I don't care that I can't use it for shortwave broadcasts or to copy the ham
phone bands.  I've got a Sony portable that'll do that quite adequately,
with essential AM/FM coverage to boot.

So whether the KX1 "wins handsdown" depends on the criteria applied.  It
doesn't "win" for me, handsdown or otherwise.

73,
Mike / KK5F

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[Andrew Moore-4]

> Strange!  Before the KX1 came out, the K1 was generally acknowledged as
> the best multi-band backpacking rig available.  It is no less suitable for that
> task today.

There's nothing strange about a product evolving to improve in some ways while the old one remains suitable to task.  Those two facts can co-exist quite happily.  Understanding your needs and the tradeoffs between the rigs is the key.



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[Jeremy Cowgar-2]

Mike Morrow wrote:

>>... the KX1 wins handsdown for backpacking...
>>    
>>
>
>Strange!  Before the KX1 came out, the K1 was generally acknowledged as the
>best multi-band backpacking rig available.  It is no less suitable for that
>task today.
>  
>
When you go out and spend $200.00 on a 1 person tent that is 1lb lighter
than your previous tent, and another $180 on a sleeping bag that is
1/2lb lighter, and continue to do so so your pack drops from 35lbs to
30lbs the KX1 is now a much better backpacking rig. Not only is the
radio a little more than 1/2lb lighter, the batteries to power it for
the same timeframe are lighter as well. Now, if your saying the KX1 will
not work, then it's just dead weight when packed and that would be a
different story.

>If one is happy with the limited number of bands covered by the KX1, and
>recognizes that there is absolutely **no** physical way that KX1 receiver RF
>performance can match that of a properly constructed  K1 in any area other
>than VFO stability, and that the ATU in the KX1 can't come close to the
>matching range of the K1's KAT1, then the KX1 is a great choice.  On the
>other hand, if RF performance *on the ham CW bands* is important, the K1
>stands as the best of the two.
>
>When I'm out in the boonies, I want the best possible RF performance on the
>ham CW bands that I can get in a small package.  The K1 hasn't been shaken
>from that position.
>
>I don't care that I can't use it for shortwave broadcasts or to copy the ham
>phone bands.  I've got a Sony portable that'll do that quite adequately,
>with essential AM/FM coverage to boot.
>
>So whether the KX1 "wins handsdown" depends on the criteria applied.  It
>doesn't "win" for me, handsdown or otherwise.
>  
>

For real backpacking it seems worth the comprimise.

Jeremy
KB8LFA
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[Matt and Kelly]

>... the KX1 wins handsdown for backpacking...

> Strange!  Before the KX1 came out, the K1 was generally
> acknowledged as the best multi-band backpacking rig
> available.  It is no less suitable for that task today.

I think you misunderstand.  Let me look at your comments
one at a time.

    "If one is happy with the limited number of bands
    covered by the KX1"

The KX1 covers 20, 30 and 40 meters.  When one is talking
about backpacking, they are spending a majority of their
time hiking. Generally, and this will vary by person, a
backpacker will hike during the day and set up camp during
the late afternoon or early evening. I don't think that
having the full spectrum of bands is going to add
significantly to the hikers (aka ham's) enjoyment of his
evening's operating, While it would certainly be nice to
have a rig that was equipped with 10 through 80, I would
suppose that only 1 or 2 bands would actually be used
before it's time to hit the sack.

    "and recognizes that there is absolutely **no**
physical
    way that KX1 receiver RF performance can match that of
a
    properly constructed  K1 in any area other than VFO
    stability,"

There are others here on this list that would say the
difference is very minimal. Since I don't own a K1, I
can't comment.

    "and that the ATU in the KX1 can't come close to the
    matching range of the K1's KAT1"

Again, remember that the hiker is backpacking, and as such
is carrying a small radio and minimal antenna.  If I were
to hike today, I would take the KX1 with 25' of antenna
wire and 16' of counterpoise wire.  Since the wire used
would be very small, it would be light and compact. The
KX1 easily matches that wire, once strung in a tree, to a
perfect 1:1 on all 3 of its bands, which is all that is
needed.  While it IS true the K1's ATU may be better at
matching systems under more difficult situations, that
capability is not needed when out doors with a 25' of
wire.

    "On the other hand, if RF performance *on the ham CW
    bands* is important, the K1 stands as the best of the
    two."

I'm not sure how you justify that statement, but oh well.

    "I don't care that I can't use it for shortwave
    broadcasts or to copy the ham phone bands.  I've got a
    Sony portable that'll do that quite adequately, with
    essential AM/FM coverage to boot."

Are you needing to carry that too?  That is an additional
weight and more hardware to pack that is not required with
the KX1.

Specs that are important to me:

The KX1 is 1.4 x 5.8 x 3.0" and weighs 9 oz (excluding
options)
It has a current drain of 32 mA on receive and 300-700 mA
on transmit.

The K1 is 2.4 x 5.2 x 7.1" and weighs 1.4 lbs (excluding
options)
It has a current drain of 55 mA on receive and 700-900 mA
on transmit.

The KX1 runs on 6 "AA" batteries, and will output 1.5 to
2.0 watts.
The K1 runs on 8 "AA" batteries (with optional KBT1
installed) and will output 5 watts.

The KX1 comes with a small keyer that attaches directly to
the side of the KX1.
The K1 requires a separate keyer.

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to tell you that the
K1 is in anyway a lesser radio than the KX1. In fact, I
own a KX1 and I am seriously considering purchasing a K1.
There ARE some situations where the K1 just would be a
better "fit" than the KX1.

What I am talking about here is the practicality taking a
ham radio hiking into the mountains. If I could carry it
and the necessary hardware, I would love to hike into the
woods with a K2 and a nice Buddipole. But being practical,
I see the sense in having the KX1 as my radio of choice
for backpacking, and thus the original statement...

"the KX1 wins handsdown for backpacking..."

Matt - K7OE
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[W0rw]

The KX1 is better for Pedestrian Mobile operation.
Why not operate while you hike ?

Paul w0rw
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