K2 Problem in NAQP
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Hi Folks,
I ran into a problem during the just completed NAQP RTTY contest with my Elecraft K2. To make a very long and frustrating story short, on at least 20 and 40 meters it receives on the lower side band but transmits on the upper sideband. On 15 meters it receives and transmits on the same sideband which appears to be the lower sideband. The only way I was able to get it to transmit on the same sideband on the two bands mentioned was to put the radio into RTTY reverse (with CW REV) and then operate MMTTY in REV. As a result of the problem I lost about three hours in the contest while troubleshooting the problem. If someone can shed (and I'm sure they can) some light on this perplexity, I would very much appreciate it. This was my first serious attempt to do SO2R. I used my K3 for the right radio and the K2 for the left. I had aligned the RTTY filters in the K2 using the procedures found on the internet and used Spectogram. I tried to be careful to set them on the correct sideband. I can accept that maybe I didn't get that done right and will recheck them. But, I don't understand why the upper band is correct and the lower bands are not. BTW, I ran both radio's pretty hard at 100 watts and neither overheated. The K3 takes care of itself very well. I think one could go near brick down for several minutes and it would be fine. I used a hand held, point at an object, temp sensor with the K2 and the highest heat sink temp I measured was about 100 F......usually it was 10-20 degrees lower. I have manually adjustable variable speed four inch muffin fans mounted about three inches above each radio and ran them continuously at about half speed during the contest. With a little external help I see no problem in running the K2 at 100 watts FB in RTTY contesting. Thanks for all the commits I'm sure I will receive. Take pride in the USA. 73 Jim, W0EM ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Jim,
I suspect you have the sidebands inverted in your RTTY filter set. Do the following with the K2 set to a band lower than 15 meters, First set the FL1 filter to use the OP1 filter on the KSB2 board, and that filter along with its BFO settings will be used for transmit. Set RTTY the same as your SSB FL1 settings - the BFO setting for RTTY should be the same as LSB, and the RTTYr BFO should be the same as USB. The other filters are created from the variable bandwidth filter. I usually set FL2 to 1.00, FL3 to 0.70, FL4 to 0.40, and center these 3 filters at 1000 Hz. - use Spectrogram MMTTY mark frequency is set at 915 Hz to be compatible. Check the BFO frequencies for RTTY and RTTYr - normally the RTTY BFO frequency will be in the vicinity of 4914.xx and the RTTYr BFO will be near 4912.xx if you are using 1000 Hz as the center frequency. Higher center frequencies may be possible, but you may run into difficulty with limits of the BFO range for RTTYr. The K2 reverses its mixing scheme on 15 meters and above - below 15 meters the VFO and BFO subtract while on 15 and above the VFO and BFO add. The K2 automatically swaps sidebands for you, but it will not come out right on all bands if the sidebands have been inverted in the filter settings. 73, Don W3FPR On 7/17/2011 11:14 AM, Jim Harris wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I ran into a problem during the just completed NAQP RTTY contest with my Elecraft K2. To make a very long and frustrating story short, on at least 20 and 40 meters it receives on the lower side band but transmits on the upper sideband. On 15 meters it receives and transmits on the same sideband which appears to be the lower sideband. The only way I was able to get it to transmit on the same sideband on the two bands mentioned was to put the radio into RTTY reverse (with CW REV) and then operate MMTTY in REV. As a result of the problem I lost about three hours in the contest while troubleshooting the problem. If someone can shed (and I'm sure they can) some light on this perplexity, I would very much appreciate it. > > This was my first serious attempt to do SO2R. I used my K3 for the right radio and the K2 for the left. I had aligned the RTTY filters in the K2 using the procedures found on the internet and used Spectogram. I tried to be careful to set them on the correct sideband. I can accept that maybe I didn't get that done right and will recheck them. But, I don't understand why the upper band is correct and the lower bands are not. > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Don,
That was the leading suspect in my mind. But I tried very hard to assure they were correct when I set them up. I still don't grasp why the upper band was correct and the lower were opposite. I realize there is an inversion of side bands up there but I thought it was a simple inversion which to me means they should have behaved as did the lower but maybe opposite from the lower on receive and transmit. I will follow your instructions and see how they work out. As always, thank you for your assistance. Take pride in the USA. 73 Jim, W0EM >________________________________ >From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> >To: Jim Harris <[hidden email]> >Cc: Elecraft Email <[hidden email]> >Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 10:52 AM >Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2 Problem in NAQP > >Jim, > >I suspect you have the sidebands inverted in your RTTY filter set. > >Do the following with the K2 set to a band lower than 15 meters, > >First set the FL1 filter to use the OP1 filter on the KSB2 board, and that filter along with its BFO settings will be used for transmit. Set RTTY the same as your SSB FL1 settings - the BFO setting for RTTY should be the same as LSB, and the RTTYr BFO should be the same as USB. > >The other filters are created from the variable bandwidth filter. I usually set FL2 to 1.00, FL3 to 0.70, FL4 to 0.40, and center these 3 filters at 1000 Hz. - use Spectrogram >MMTTY mark frequency is set at 915 Hz to be compatible. > >Check the BFO frequencies for RTTY and RTTYr - normally the RTTY BFO frequency will be in the vicinity of 4914.xx and the RTTYr BFO will be near 4912.xx if you are using 1000 Hz as the center frequency. > >Higher center frequencies may be possible, but you may run into difficulty with limits of the BFO range for RTTYr. > >The K2 reverses its mixing scheme on 15 meters and above - below 15 meters the VFO and BFO subtract while on 15 and above the VFO and BFO add. The K2 automatically swaps sidebands for you, but it will not come out right on all bands if the sidebands have been inverted in the filter settings. > >73, >Don W3FPR > > > >On 7/17/2011 11:14 AM, Jim Harris wrote: >> Hi Folks, >> >> I ran into a problem during the just completed NAQP RTTY contest with my Elecraft K2. To make a very long and frustrating story short, on at least 20 and 40 meters it receives on the lower side band but transmits on the upper sideband. On 15 meters it receives and transmits on the same sideband which appears to be the lower sideband. The only way I was able to get it to transmit on the same sideband on the two bands mentioned was to put the radio into RTTY reverse (with CW REV) and then operate MMTTY in REV. As a result of the problem I lost about three hours in the contest while troubleshooting the problem. If someone can shed (and I'm sure they can) some light on this perplexity, I would very much appreciate it. >> >> This was my first serious attempt to do SO2R. I used my K3 for the right radio and the K2 for the left. I had aligned the RTTY filters in the K2 using the procedures found on the internet and used Spectogram. I tried to be careful to set them on the correct sideband. I can accept that maybe I didn't get that done right and will recheck them. But, I don't understand why the upper band is correct and the lower bands are not. >> >> > > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by radioshoppe
In my response to Jim late yesterday, I got things reversed in the part
copied below. The RTTY BFO frequency will be lower than the RTTYr BFO. Sorry! 73, Don W3FPR ------------------------------------------- Check the BFO frequencies for RTTY and RTTYr - normally the RTTY BFO frequency will be in the vicinity of 4914.xx and the RTTYr BFO will be near 4912.xx if you are using 1000 Hz as the center frequency. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by radioshoppe
Mike,
Looks like Don was right. I haven't done an on air test with another station yet but comparing my K2 & K3 they now are the same after I changed the sidebands. Hopefully, I can get an on air test in a day or so with a friend to confirm all is well. In spite of my best effort I guess I goofed it up the first time. I've been unable to find clear instructions in the assembly manual nor other instructions available on the internet on what values are correct for the BFO and DAC values. Those values are in the assembly manual for LSB/USB and CW and it's reverse but not for RTTY. I guess I had a one in two chance of getting it right and didn't do well on the odds. Looks like I have plenty of range on my radio so that doesn't seem to be an issue here. I still don't understand why the upper bands were correct and the lower were not. Hopefully both are now correct. Live and learn. Thank you for your input. Take pride in the USA. 73 Jim, W0EM >________________________________ >From: Mike Murray <[hidden email]> >To: Jim Harris <[hidden email]> >Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 6:52 PM >Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2 Problem in NAQP > > >Jim, > > >Don was right on with his response - I had exactly the same problem with my K2 even though I thought I had carefully setup the filters. Turned out I didn't have enough VFO low end range to get them set correctly. Searched the archives and found Don's suggestion to pad U11 to change it. Seems to have worked correctly since the VFO values now correspond to LSB/USB values but haven't had a chance to try on the air. > > >Thanks again Don!!! > > >73, >Mike - W0AG > > >On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 6:29 PM, Jim Harris <[hidden email]> wrote: > >Don, >> >>That was the leading suspect in my mind. But I tried very hard to assure they were correct when I set them up. I still don't grasp why the upper band was correct and the lower were opposite. I realize there is an inversion of side bands up there but I thought it was a simple inversion which to me means they should have behaved as did the lower but maybe opposite from the lower on receive and transmit. >> >>I will follow your instructions and see how they work out. As always, thank you for your assistance. >> >> >> >>Take pride in the USA. 73 >> >> >>Jim, W0EM >> >> >>>________________________________ >>>From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> >>>To: Jim Harris <[hidden email]> >>>Cc: Elecraft Email <[hidden email]> >>>Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 10:52 AM >>>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2 Problem in NAQP >> >>> >>>Jim, >>> >>>I suspect you have the sidebands inverted in your RTTY filter set. >>> >>>Do the following with the K2 set to a band lower than 15 meters, >>> >>>First set the FL1 filter to use the OP1 filter on the KSB2 board, and that filter along with its BFO settings will be used for transmit. Set RTTY the same as your SSB FL1 settings - the BFO setting for RTTY should be the same as LSB, and the RTTYr BFO should be the same as USB. >>> >>>The other filters are created from the variable bandwidth filter. I usually set FL2 to 1.00, FL3 to 0.70, FL4 to 0.40, and center these 3 filters at 1000 Hz. - use Spectrogram >>>MMTTY mark frequency is set at 915 Hz to be compatible. >>> >>>Check the BFO frequencies for RTTY and RTTYr - normally the RTTY BFO frequency will be in the vicinity of 4914.xx and the RTTYr BFO will be near 4912.xx if you are using 1000 Hz as the center frequency. >>> >>>Higher center frequencies may be possible, but you may run into difficulty with limits of the BFO range for RTTYr. >>> >>>The K2 reverses its mixing scheme on 15 meters and above - below 15 meters the VFO and BFO subtract while on 15 and above the VFO and BFO add. The K2 automatically swaps sidebands for you, but it will not come out right on all bands if the sidebands have been inverted in the filter settings. >>> >>>73, >>>Don W3FPR >>> >>> >>> >>>On 7/17/2011 11:14 AM, Jim Harris wrote: >>>> Hi Folks, >>>> >>>> I ran into a problem during the just completed NAQP RTTY contest with my Elecraft K2. To make a very long and frustrating story short, on at least 20 and 40 meters it receives on the lower side band but transmits on the upper sideband. On 15 meters it receives and transmits on the same sideband which appears to be the lower sideband. The only way I was able to get it to transmit on the same sideband on the two bands mentioned was to put the radio into RTTY reverse (with CW REV) and then operate MMTTY in REV. As a result of the problem I lost about three hours in the contest while troubleshooting the problem. If someone can shed (and I'm sure they can) some light on this perplexity, I would very much appreciate it. >>>> >>>> This was my first serious attempt to do SO2R. I used my K3 for the right radio and the K2 for the left. I had aligned the RTTY filters in the K2 using the procedures found on the internet and used Spectogram. I tried to be careful to set them on the correct sideband. I can accept that maybe I didn't get that done right and will recheck them. But, I don't understand why the upper band is correct and the lower bands are not. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>______________________________________________________________ >>Elecraft mailing list >>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >>Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> > > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Jim,
You have both the K2 and the K3, so you don't have to wait for an actual "on the air" test. Connect the K2 to a dummy load, and connect a short antenna to the K3 - place the antenna close enough to the dummy load to give about an S-9 indication on the K3. Transmit with the K2 and listen with the K3 - you will know immediately whether it works or not. 73, Don W3FPR On 7/18/2011 12:44 PM, Jim Harris wrote: > Mike, > > Looks like Don was right. I haven't done an on air test with another station yet but comparing my K2& K3 they now are the same after I changed the sidebands. Hopefully, I can get an on air test in a day or so with a friend to confirm all is well. In spite of my best effort I guess I goofed it up the first time. I've been unable to find clear instructions in the assembly manual nor other instructions available on the internet on what values are correct for the BFO and DAC values. Those values are in the assembly manual for LSB/USB and CW and it's reverse but not for RTTY. I guess I had a one in two chance of getting it right and didn't do well on the odds. > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Don,
Thank you for the suggestion. I've already done that and it looks like both are now the same. I want to do an on air test before getting near another RTTY contest so I will have to time tweak anything before I have another panic during a contest. I still don't understand why 15 meters was okay and 20 and 40 meters were not. I know about the inversion of side bands at 17 meters and above. But in my thinking the problem should have occurred there as well but on opposite side bands. Thank you again for your help. Take pride in the USA. 73 Jim, W0EM >________________________________ >From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> >To: Jim Harris <[hidden email]> >Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>; Elecraft Email <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> >Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:10 AM >Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2 Problem in NAQP > >Jim, > >You have both the K2 and the K3, so you don't have to wait for an actual "on the air" test. Connect the K2 to a dummy load, and connect a short antenna to the K3 - place the antenna close enough to the dummy load to give about an S-9 indication on the K3. Transmit with the K2 and listen with the K3 - you will know immediately whether it works or not. > >73, >Don W3FPR > >On 7/18/2011 12:44 PM, Jim Harris wrote: >> Mike, >> >> Looks like Don was right. I haven't done an on air test with another station yet but comparing my K2& K3 they now are the same after I changed the sidebands. Hopefully, I can get an on air test in a day or so with a friend to confirm all is well. In spite of my best effort I guess I goofed it up the first time. I've been unable to find clear instructions in the assembly manual nor other instructions available on the internet on what values are correct for the BFO and DAC values. Those values are in the assembly manual for LSB/USB and CW and it's reverse but not for RTTY. I guess I had a one in two chance of getting it right and didn't do well on the odds. >> > > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Hi,
As a follow up I tested my K2 on the air with a friend. Now both receive and transmit for all four filters are on the same frequency (sideband) on 15 and 40 meters. That issue is resolved. However, in the process we found that on both bands his radio (FT-950) is receiving and transmitting 2.69 Khz below my frequency. My K2 and K3 transmit and receive to each other on the same frequency. We tried changing various settings in his and my radio's and in N1MM and MMTTY at his location and mine with no change. It sure would be wonderful if someone could shed some light on this latest head scratcher. My thanks to everyone for all their responses to my initial problem. 73, Jim, W0EM |
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Jim,
I don't know about the FT-950, but the K2 and K3 display the frequency of the (suppressed) carrier - unless the K3 is used in AFSK or FSK data submodes when it displays the mark frequency. Check the specifications and dial display caharacteristics of each transceiver before drawing conclusions that one or the other are incorrect. 2.69 kHz is very close to 2.7 kHz which is the width of a normal SSB filter. 73, Don W3FPR On 7/18/2011 7:20 PM, radioshoppe wrote: > Hi, > > As a follow up I tested my K2 on the air with a friend. Now both receive > and transmit for all four filters are on the same frequency (sideband) on 15 > and 40 meters. That issue is resolved. However, in the process we found > that on both bands his radio (FT-950) is receiving and transmitting 2.69 Khz > below my frequency. My K2 and K3 transmit and receive to each other on the > same frequency. We tried changing various settings in his and my radio's > and in N1MM and MMTTY at his location and mine with no change. > > It sure would be wonderful if someone could shed some light on this latest > head scratcher. My thanks to everyone for all their responses to my initial > problem. 73, > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by radioshoppe
I suspect that at least part of the discrepancy is due to the following
fact: The frequency on the radio's display and the frequency actually being transmitted on in RTTY are not always the same, depending on the radio and the mode it is being used in. K3: In FSK D and AFSK A modes, the K3's dial displays the actual Mark frequency of an RTTY signal (provided you tune the signal to match the PITCH setting in these modes, i.e. so the Mark audio tone is 2125 Hz when the PITCH is set to 2125). However, in DATA A, the K3 displays the suppressed carrier (or BFO) frequency. Since DATA A is upper sideband, in DATA A the actual transmitted Mark frequency would be 2.295 kHz above the displayed frequency, assuming MMTTY is using the default 2125/2295 tone pair (reversed because of the sideband choice). The same is true in USB mode. On the other hand, in DATA A-REV and LSB, the actual transmitted Mark frequency would be 2.125 kHz below the displayed frequency. K2: This I am not sure of, but my first guess would be that the K2's display in RTTY mode is the suppressed carrier frequency (like the K3 in LSB mode). FT-950: The frequency displayed will probably depend on the mode being used. If the FT-950 was in FSK (RTTY-LSB) mode, then I believe it would display the actual transmitted mark frequency. On the other hand, if it was in AFSK (PKT-LSB or PKT-USB) mode, it would likely display the suppressed carrier frequency, unless the radio's packet frequency display offset has been changed from the default (0). Most RTTY software these days has the capability to perform the arithmetic (suppressed carrier plus or minus audio mark tone) so that it automatically logs the correct transmitted Mark frequency. In MMTTY, if you are using the "Radio command" feature, you can set the frequency offset to OFF (e.g. for FSK), LSB, or USB to have the program perform the required frequency adjustment in the log. The offset you observed was somewhat different from the expected 2.125 or 2.295 kHz. A couple of possibilities spring to mind. Perhaps the frequency calibration is off on one of the radios, or perhaps one of you was not using the default audio tones (for example, if you fine-tuned by clicking in the MMTTY waterfall). The best way I can think of to sort this out is to set MMTTY to its HAM defaults and turn AFC off, then tune the radio to an RTTY signal on an accurately known frequency (e.g. W1AW bulletins) and observe the radio's dial reading versus the published frequency. 73, Rich VE3KI W0EM wrote: > in the process we found > that on both bands his radio (FT-950) is receiving and transmitting 2.69 Khz > below my frequency. My K2 and K3 transmit and receive to each other on the > same frequency. We tried changing various settings in his and my radio's > and in N1MM and MMTTY at his location and mine with no change. > > It sure would be wonderful if someone could shed some light on this latest > head scratcher. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Rich and other interested parties,
As I understand what you are saying is that the frequency displayed on K3 is actually the mark frequency rather than the suppressed carrier frequency. From my observations of the K2, as compared to the K3 in on air test, it is the same. I have compared my transmitted and received frequency with an FT-950 and FT-5000 and those radio's are essentially the mark frequency below the K2. In other words, If they are transmitting on 21.080.00 I have to tune the K2 & K3 to 21.082.150 to hear them and for them to hear me. I don't see a problem in actual use other than if you agree to meet someone on a certain frequency you have to add the mark frequency to the displayed frequency to be communicate with them. My thank to every one you responded. 73 Jim, W0EM |
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In reply to this post by radioshoppe
W0EM wrote:
> As I understand what you are saying is that the frequency displayed on K3 is > actually the mark frequency rather than the suppressed carrier frequency. >> From my observations of the K2, as compared to the K3 in on air test, it is > the same. I have compared my transmitted and received frequency with an > FT-950 and FT-5000 and those radio's are essentially the mark frequency > below the K2. In other words, If they are transmitting on 21.080.00 I have > to tune the K2 & K3 to 21.082.150 to hear them and for them to hear me. No, you don't have it right yet. According to your description, the K3 and the K2 are both displaying the suppressed carrier frequency in lower sideband. From this I conclude that you have your K3 in either LSB mode or DATA A-REV. Neither of these is optimal for RTTY, but they both will work. Once again, the frequency that is displayed on the K3's dial DEPENDS ON THE MODE. In CW, FSK D and AFSK A, it is the actual frequency (assuming you are aligned on the audio pitch). In USB, LSB and DATA A, it is the suppressed carrier frequency, which is either above or below the actual frequency, depending on which sideband is being used. 73, Rich VE3KI ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by radioshoppe
Jim,
This is a very good example where the user should understand his radio - especially what is displayed for the frequency for each mode. For the K2 in either SSB or RTTY mode, it will be the suppressed carrier frequency - in CW it will be the carrier frequency of the signal (provided that you are hearing at the same pitch that you have set for your sidetone pitch). With the K3, what is displayed depends on the data sub-mode. DATA-A will be like SSB where the suppressed carrier frequency is displayed - AFSK-A and FSK-D submodes will display the mark frequency (as long as you have set the proper mark frequency in the K3 menu). CW is subject to the same considerations as for the K2. I cannot speak for how other transceivers calculate the frequency displayed on the dial - it will be transceiver dependent, so the user should consult the matching manual for that information. One clue is to observe whether the receiver changes the frequency display when changing modes. The K2 and K3 do not change the displayed frequency when changing between CW and SSB - which should tell you that the K2 and K3 are displaying the carrier frequency (suppressed or not). Those that change the displayed frequency are most likely displaying the frequency the transceiver is tuned to (including the CW offset). For example, my Yaesu FT-900 indicates the correct frequency when tuned to a CW signal at the same pitch I have set for the sidetone, but if I switch to SSB mode (on the same sideband as I am using for CW), the frequency changes by 600 Hz and I still hear the same audio tone. With the K2 and K3, the displayed frequency does not change, but listening to a CW signal in CW mode, I will not hear the signal when switching to SSB because it goes to zero audio frequency. I know it is confusing, but I hope that I have made the point that each receiver may do it differently. Valid conclusions cannot be drawn until you know how each transceiver handles the displayed frequency. Introducing RTTY and data modes further complicate the picture. 73, Don W3FPR On 7/20/2011 12:24 PM, radioshoppe wrote: > Rich and other interested parties, > > As I understand what you are saying is that the frequency displayed on K3 is > actually the mark frequency rather than the suppressed carrier frequency. > > From my observations of the K2, as compared to the K3 in on air test, it is > the same. I have compared my transmitted and received frequency with an > FT-950 and FT-5000 and those radio's are essentially the mark frequency > below the K2. In other words, If they are transmitting on 21.080.00 I have > to tune the K2& K3 to 21.082.150 to hear them and for them to hear me. > > I don't see a problem in actual use other than if you agree to meet someone > on a certain frequency you have to add the mark frequency to the displayed > frequency to be communicate with them. > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Richard Ferch
Rich, Don and others who have responded,
SRI it has taken several days to respond. Sometimes life gets in the way of fun. Please don't take my comments below personal. They are just my observations and thoughts. I have done a bit more reading and observing and here is what I know. The K2 in RTTY mode now transmits and receives on the same frequency after aligning the RTTY filters per Don's instructions. When the K3 is in FDK-D mode both radios transmit and receive to each other when both dials indicate the same frequency. When observing the "bracket" at the bottom of the P3 connected to the IF output of the K3 I can see the shift you spoke of between USB/AFSK-A and FSK-D. So I think we are on the same page about this now. The thing that concerns me now is that it's generally accepted that RTTY is on LSB from the carrier. Apparently, it is not with my K2 in RTTY mode (AFSK) and my K3 in FSK-D mode. Test with three different Yeasu models confirms they transmit and receive the mark frequency below my K2 and K3. I suspect that it's the same for other models in that line and ICOM as well. I've read the manuals of two different ICOM radio's and they imply ICOM is the same as the Yeasu. I have no knowledge of Kenwood on this subject. So what this amounts to is that when I schedule to meet someone on a certain frequency I have to tune the mark frequency above the agreed frequency to communicate with them. If I don't find them there then I have to go back to the agreed frequency. (With my K3 I normally only use FSK-D.) Of course, the majority of my reported frequencies in contesting do not agree that reported by the other corresponding party in an exchange. Not to belabor the issue, but I don't understand why Elecraft apparently chose this way making it different from other radio manufacturers. I'm certainly open for more thoughts. Have to get out of here at this moment....an electrical storm is in the immediate area. 73, Jim, W0EM. |
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Jim,
As "advertized", in AFSK-A or FSK-D data submodes, the K3 should display the mark frequency. The K2 does not - it displays the suppressed carrier frequency. The K3 in DATA-A behaves the same as the K2 and displays the suppressed carrier frequency. Check the data sub-mode that you have set on the K3 and also check the mark frequency you have set (HOLD PITCH). 73, Don W3FPR On 7/25/2011 6:47 PM, radioshoppe wrote: > Rich, Don and others who have responded, > > SRI it has taken several days to respond. Sometimes life gets in the way of > fun. Please don't take my comments below personal. They are just my > observations and thoughts. > > I have done a bit more reading and observing and here is what I know. The > K2 in RTTY mode now transmits and receives on the same frequency after > aligning the RTTY filters per Don's instructions. When the K3 is in FDK-D > mode both radios transmit and receive to each other when both dials indicate > the same frequency. When observing the "bracket" at the bottom of the P3 > connected to the IF output of the K3 I can see the shift you spoke of > between USB/AFSK-A and FSK-D. So I think we are on the same page about this > now. > > The thing that concerns me now is that it's generally accepted that RTTY is > on LSB from the carrier. Apparently, it is not with my K2 in RTTY mode > (AFSK) and my K3 in FSK-D mode. Test with three different Yeasu models > confirms they transmit and receive the mark frequency below my K2 and K3. I > suspect that it's the same for other models in that line and ICOM as well. > I've read the manuals of two different ICOM radio's and they imply ICOM is > the same as the Yeasu. I have no knowledge of Kenwood on this subject. So > what this amounts to is that when I schedule to meet someone on a certain > frequency I have to tune the mark frequency above the agreed frequency to > communicate with them. If I don't find them there then I have to go back to > the agreed frequency. (With my K3 I normally only use FSK-D.) Of course, > the majority of my reported frequencies in contesting do not agree that > reported by the other corresponding party in an exchange. > > Not to belabor the issue, but I don't understand why Elecraft apparently > chose this way making it different from other radio manufacturers. I'm > certainly open for more thoughts. Have to get out of here at this > moment....an electrical storm is in the immediate area. > > 73, > > > Jim, W0EM. > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by radioshoppe
Probably what is most important at this point, is that the K2 is over
a decade old design, and your uses of it (data, etc) are probably as afterthought in the original design as one can possibly get. Have to remember that single sideband was (and is) optional. That people have been able to adapt it to so many varying uses is rather amazing, given the absence of these altogether in the original design. It was built to be an internal battery portable 10 watt CW rig, my use still for mine. It turned out to have an incredible classic RX, and from the beginning laid the groundwork for what we now enjoy in the K3. Mods, and mods, and mods later, the K2 has a 100 watt option, with SSB, with many early issues neatly worked out. The sideband flip issue cannot be resolved without starting all over. Nor for that matter the far tinier limited firmware capability, where far greater capability would be required to pull back many of the K3 subtleties into the K2. This lack does not seem to be a great issue though, as K2's are STILL being sold and built, and used K2's are sold at persisting good prices. I have yet to see one being parted out because someone can't sell it otherwise. 73, Guy. K2 #1239 K3 #1239 On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 6:47 PM, radioshoppe <[hidden email]> wrote: > Rich, Don and others who have responded, > > SRI it has taken several days to respond. Sometimes life gets in the way of > fun. Please don't take my comments below personal. They are just my > observations and thoughts. > > I have done a bit more reading and observing and here is what I know. The > K2 in RTTY mode now transmits and receives on the same frequency after > aligning the RTTY filters per Don's instructions. When the K3 is in FDK-D > mode both radios transmit and receive to each other when both dials indicate > the same frequency. When observing the "bracket" at the bottom of the P3 > connected to the IF output of the K3 I can see the shift you spoke of > between USB/AFSK-A and FSK-D. So I think we are on the same page about this > now. > > The thing that concerns me now is that it's generally accepted that RTTY is > on LSB from the carrier. Apparently, it is not with my K2 in RTTY mode > (AFSK) and my K3 in FSK-D mode. Test with three different Yeasu models > confirms they transmit and receive the mark frequency below my K2 and K3. I > suspect that it's the same for other models in that line and ICOM as well. > I've read the manuals of two different ICOM radio's and they imply ICOM is > the same as the Yeasu. I have no knowledge of Kenwood on this subject. So > what this amounts to is that when I schedule to meet someone on a certain > frequency I have to tune the mark frequency above the agreed frequency to > communicate with them. If I don't find them there then I have to go back to > the agreed frequency. (With my K3 I normally only use FSK-D.) Of course, > the majority of my reported frequencies in contesting do not agree that > reported by the other corresponding party in an exchange. > > Not to belabor the issue, but I don't understand why Elecraft apparently > chose this way making it different from other radio manufacturers. I'm > certainly open for more thoughts. Have to get out of here at this > moment....an electrical storm is in the immediate area. > > 73, > > > Jim, W0EM. > > -- > View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K2-Problem-in-NAQP-tp6592060p6620413.html > Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Guy,
You are so correct. PSK31 was in its early infancy when the K2 was designed, and no provisions were made for data modes. With firmware version 2.xx, the RTTY filter set was made available, so one could define a set of filters apart from the SSB filters to dedicate to data modes - the most important aspect of that addition is that the compression setting for the RTTY filter set is independent of the setting for SSB, and we all should know that using compression with data modes can make a mess of attempts to decode what is sent. There have been a few add-ons (non-Elecraft) to the K2 to make data mode operation a little easier - the EA3BLQ interface is documented on the Elecraft website, and my W3FPR Fixed Audio Out is documented on my website www.w3fpr.com with an updated version on Tom Hammond's website www.n0ss.net. Those can add operating convenience to the K2 for data modes even though they are not essential. Unfortunately, kits and boards are no longer available, even though they are not very difficult to implement with perfboard material for those who have moderate homebrewing experience. Actually, the K2 at its inception had provisions for the KSB2 and the KPA100 even though those options had not yet been developed, they were "in-plan" for the initial design (the connecting headers were in place even for the Field Test K2s). Even though the initial 10 watt design was directed at the QRP market, the full plan was more encompassing. I am certain that if PSK31 (the grandfather of all data modes other than RTTY) had been in use during the K2 design period, it would have been considered. The K2 is still going strong after 12 years (yes it has been about 12 years since I received my Field Test kit), and it is still a good performance contender in the ham radio marketplace. Add to that the fact that any K2 can be brought up to the latest level with mod kits available from Elecraft. Whatever the age of your K2, it can perform like the ones that are currently shipping. 73, Don W3FPR On 7/25/2011 7:11 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: > Probably what is most important at this point, is that the K2 is over > a decade old design, and your uses of it (data, etc) are probably as > afterthought in the original design as one can possibly get. Have to > remember that single sideband was (and is) optional. That people have > been able to adapt it to so many varying uses is rather amazing, given > the absence of these altogether in the original design. > > It was built to be an internal battery portable 10 watt CW rig, my use > still for mine. It turned out to have an incredible classic RX, and > from the beginning laid the groundwork for what we now enjoy in the > K3. Mods, and mods, and mods later, the K2 has a 100 watt option, with > SSB, with many early issues neatly worked out. The sideband flip > issue cannot be resolved without starting all over. Nor for that > matter the far tinier limited firmware capability, where far greater > capability would be required to pull back many of the K3 subtleties > into the K2. > > This lack does not seem to be a great issue though, as K2's are STILL > being sold and built, and used K2's are sold at persisting good > prices. I have yet to see one being parted out because someone can't > sell it otherwise. > > 73, Guy. > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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