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K2 QSK

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Bob Jones-9

K2 QSK

K2 5336 is up and running with a pile of European and transatlantic contacts
on 10W during the first evening on 3.5MHz. I'm delighted with the rig in
every respect except one. It's described as full QSK but doesn't come close
to offering the performance of a Ten Tec in this respect - although it beats
my FT1000MP with its clacking relays hands down! Are there any mods to make
this rig true QSK without upsetting the keying waveform?

73, Bob G3YIQ

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N2TK

RE: K2 QSK

Hi Bob,
You hit on a disappointment of mine - the K2 does not have true QSK. If it
did I would have had a second K2 here. To date I haven't heard of anything
that can be done to get QSK like some of the other rigs. When I am Cqing I
don't need QSK. Actually your ears get a break when running without QSK. But
when hunting and pouncing it is nice to have QSK that hears between the dits
at >20WPM.
#3481
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Bob Jones
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 6:04 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] K2 QSK

K2 5336 is up and running with a pile of European and transatlantic contacts
on 10W during the first evening on 3.5MHz. I'm delighted with the rig in
every respect except one. It's described as full QSK but doesn't come close
to offering the performance of a Ten Tec in this respect - although it beats
my FT1000MP with its clacking relays hands down! Are there any mods to make
this rig true QSK without upsetting the keying waveform?

73, Bob G3YIQ

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Brendan Minish

Re: K2 QSK

In reply to this post by Bob Jones-9

On Sun, 2006-02-19 at 11:03 +0000, Bob Jones wrote:
> Are there any mods to make
> this rig true QSK without upsetting the keying waveform?

Yes, go and have a look at the mods on this site
http://www.qslnet.de/member/la3za/K2/mod.html
under general mods look for tweaks then
faster QSK performance

If you have the DSP module you may also need to look at the pop
elimination mod.

I can easily hear between dots at around 25 WPM after tweaking my K2

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Don Wilhelm-3

RE: K2 QSK

In reply to this post by N2TK

Bob, Tony qnd all,

Have you tried setting the menu item 'T-R Hold' to 0.00 or 0.01? The
firmware defaults this setting to 0.05.
If my dot time calculation is anywhere close, a setting of 0.00 should allow
you to hear between dits up to about 60 wpm. With a setting of 0.05, you
will only hear between characters above 20 wpm.

Set the PF1 or PF2 buttons for T-R hold should you want to change it more
quickly than accessing the menu.

73,
Don W3FPR

> -----Original Message-----
>
> Hi Bob,
> You hit on a disappointment of mine - the K2 does not have true QSK. If it
> did I would have had a second K2 here. To date I haven't heard of anything
> that can be done to get QSK like some of the other rigs. When I am Cqing I
> don't need QSK. Actually your ears get a break when running
> without QSK. But
> when hunting and pouncing it is nice to have QSK that hears
> between the dits
> at >20WPM.
> #3481
> N2TK, Tony
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >
> K2 5336 is up and running with a pile of European and
> transatlantic contacts
> on 10W during the first evening on 3.5MHz. I'm delighted with the rig in
> every respect except one. It's described as full QSK but doesn't
> come close
> to offering the performance of a Ten Tec in this respect -
> although it beats
> my FT1000MP with its clacking relays hands down! Are there any
> mods to make
> this rig true QSK without upsetting the keying waveform?
>
>
>
> 73, Bob G3YIQ
>
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N2TK

RE: K2 QSK

Yes, T-R Hold is set to 0.01. Still hard to hear between dits above
16-20WPM. Would be happy if I could hear between dits up to about 30WPM.
73
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Wilhelm [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 9:48 AM
To: N2TK, Tony; 'Bob Jones'; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K2 QSK

Bob, Tony qnd all,

Have you tried setting the menu item 'T-R Hold' to 0.00 or 0.01? The
firmware defaults this setting to 0.05.
If my dot time calculation is anywhere close, a setting of 0.00 should allow
you to hear between dits up to about 60 wpm. With a setting of 0.05, you
will only hear between characters above 20 wpm.

Set the PF1 or PF2 buttons for T-R hold should you want to change it more
quickly than accessing the menu.

73,
Don W3FPR

Vic K2VCO

Re: K2 QSK

In reply to this post by Brendan Minish

Brendan Minish EI6IZ wrote:

> Yes, go and have a look at the mods on this site
> http://www.qslnet.de/member/la3za/K2/mod.html
> under general mods look for tweaks then
> faster QSK performance
>
> If you have the DSP module you may also need to look at the pop
> elimination mod.
>
> I can easily hear between dots at around 25 WPM after tweaking my K2

I've done every click and pop elimination mod under the sun and I still
find it necessary to run at t-r = 0.003. I also keep a SCAF filter in
line to clean up the sidetone thumps. I've just given up on this
particular issue, and have gotten used to slow QSK.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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N2TK

RE: K2 QSK

In reply to this post by Brendan Minish

Hi Brendan. Tnx for the tip. I had added the 1M resistor across R17. I
haven't made the mod yet to add the 220K resistor in series with the mute
line. Will try that when I get back from WP2Z. The K2 is packed and ready to
go along with the golf clubs.
My TS950SDX spoils me with its QSK. Want the same in the K2. However the DSP
is better in the K2. And it is sure a lot easier totting the K2 rather then
the 950 down south.

If you hear me on as either WP2Z or N2TK/NP2 from 2/22-3/8, give me a call.
Now if I only had that new Elecraft solid-state amp to take along?????

73,
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Brendan Minish EI6IZ
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 9:47 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K2 QSK

On Sun, 2006-02-19 at 11:03 +0000, Bob Jones wrote:
> Are there any mods to make
> this rig true QSK without upsetting the keying waveform?

Yes, go and have a look at the mods on this site
http://www.qslnet.de/member/la3za/K2/mod.html
under general mods look for tweaks then
faster QSK performance

If you have the DSP module you may also need to look at the pop
elimination mod.

I can easily hear between dots at around 25 WPM after tweaking my K2

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Vic K2VCO

Re: K2 QSK

In reply to this post by N2TK

N2TK, Tony wrote:
> Yes, T-R Hold is set to 0.01. Still hard to hear between dits above
> 16-20WPM. Would be happy if I could hear between dits up to about 30WPM.

The speedup mod will bring it up to maybe 25 wpm. But -- especially if
you have the DSP -- it's noisy. Maybe I'm hypersensitive on this issue.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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Ron D'Eau Claire-2

RE: K2 QSK

I'm wondering where you guys use such incredibly fast QSK? I keep the delay
long enough that I am not bothered by noise, etc., except between words or,
perhaps at speeds under 15 wpm, letters. I find it incredibly tiring to
listen to all the racket produced by having noise, QRM, etc., blasting
through at other times.

If someone wants to break me, he/she can do so easily with a couple of dits
between words.

If it's someone on frequency asking QRL?, it does me no good to reply since
obviously he doesn't hear me. The other station in the QSO has a better
chance.

If it's DX I am not on his frequency anyway, so I'm not bothering him if he
answers someone else while I'm calling.

If it's a response to a non-DX call in which the station I'm calling
answered someone else, obviously the other station didn't hear me calling
since he called at the same time so unless he's a LID it's very unlikely I'm
being heard by him. Besides, in that situation my call is short and will be
done with by the time the other station finished with call signs, so I'm not
going to QRM the transmission.

Perhaps you find it useful in frantic contesting to avoid wasting the few
seconds to finish a call when the other station answers someone else? Or
perhaps while running an 'endless loop' CQ hoping for a break from someone?

Ron AC7AC

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Vic K2VCO

Re: K2 QSK

Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> If it's DX I am not on his frequency anyway, so I'm not bothering him if he
> answers someone else while I'm calling.

In order to time your calls in a pileup, you need to hear the DX station
start working another station or send TU after finishing a QSO. If you
miss a chance to call, you've missed a possible QSO. And of course if
you get out of sync and continue to call after the DX station has come
back to someone else, you may be interfering with the someone else.
Many DX stations commonly operate at 35 wpm in pileups. Depending on
conditions, callers may match the DX station's speed or go a bit slower.
At this rate, it's very easy to miss a call or a TU.

> Perhaps you find it useful in frantic contesting to avoid wasting the few
> seconds to finish a call when the other station answers someone else?

In a contest, you *are* on his QRG and if you don't shut up you *are*
causing QRM.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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N2TK

RE: K2 QSK

In reply to this post by Ron D'Eau Claire-2

Hi Ron,
I made some comments below in your message. And I preface that this is an
individual thing. Some folks don't care for QSK and some do. It's no right
or wrong, just a preference. To me a perfect QSK rig would be one that I
could send at any speed and I could clearly hear between the dits without
any artifacts such as clicks, and pops and no agc pumping.
73,
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 1:51 PM
To: 'Elecraft Reflector'
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K2 QSK

I'm wondering where you guys use such incredibly fast QSK? I keep the delay
long enough that I am not bothered by noise, etc., except between words or,
perhaps at speeds under 15 wpm, letters. I find it incredibly tiring to
listen to all the racket produced by having noise, QRM, etc., blasting
through at other times.
(When I am calling CQ I don't use QSK since this gives my ears a break.
Usually at WP2Z on 30M there is a very high noise level that sometimes
makes listening to CW a real pain. I don't use QSK in those type situations.
Some rigs produce few artifacts on a quiet band so QSK is a pleasure to
use.)

If someone wants to break me, he/she can do so easily with a couple of dits
between words.
(I agree when I am calling CQ or having a rag chew)

If it's someone on frequency asking QRL?, it does me no good to reply since
obviously he doesn't hear me. The other station in the QSO has a better
chance.
(Maybe, maybe not. The station asking QRL mat hear you better than the
station that is transmitting. Or may be trying to find to what is going on )

If it's DX I am not on his frequency anyway, so I'm not bothering him if he
answers someone else while I'm calling.
(I want to know as soon as the DX calls me or someone else. I want to make
sure I hear the entire call of who he is calling. If it is me he won't have
to repeat my call. If it is someone else I can search, if he is running
split as to where he is listening. This saves time and helps to get through
quicker. Sometimes I work a station and exchange reports before some folks
stop calling and even realize the DX has worked someone. )

If it's a response to a non-DX call in which the station I'm calling
answered someone else, obviously the other station didn't hear me calling
since he called at the same time so unless he's a LID it's very unlikely I'm
being heard by him. Besides, in that situation my call is short and will be
done with by the time the other station finished with call signs, so I'm not
going to QRM the transmission.
(I agree)

Perhaps you find it useful in frantic contesting to avoid wasting the few
seconds to finish a call when the other station answers someone else? Or
perhaps while running an 'endless loop' CQ hoping for a break from someone?
(I don't run an endless loop of CQ's. Wherever I operated from I didn't have
to do that. Also some DX takes tail-enders, if done properly. QSK helps with
that)

Ron AC7AC

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Ron D'Eau Claire-2

RE: K2 QSK

In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO

Vic wrote:

In order to time your calls in a pileup, you need to hear the DX station
start working another station or send TU after finishing a QSO.
--------------------------
In that case I'm not sending, so I don't need to hear between dits.

I suspected that might be the most useful place for between-the-dits extreme
QSK, where stations pile on top of each other without exercising any
discipline at all. It does little good to keep shouting while the person
whose attention you are trying to attract has responded to someone else,
although I rather feel that if I'm QRMing the other person it was only
because he/she was QRMing me by calling on top of me. I never start calling
if I hear others calling before I start, and I expect anyone who responds
more slowly to wait their turn. I know, that's not how many contesters
behave.

Contesting is too often just a 'barroom brawl' on the Ham bands.

That's why I disagree with those who claim that contesting produces useful
skills for anything but contesting. That's like saying that being able to
hold your own in a barroom brawl is good training for how to behave in
polite company.

I'll stick with polite company where people don't normally shout over me or
try to interrupt in the middle of a word or even in mid-sentence!

(There! That's undoubtedly renewed my curmudgeon credentials for another
year or two...)

Ron AC7AC

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Ron D'Eau Claire-2

RE: K2 QSK

In reply to this post by N2TK

Tony, N2TK wrote:

Hi Ron,
... this is an individual thing. Some folks don't care for QSK and some do.
It's no right or wrong, just a preference. To me a perfect QSK rig would be
one that I could send at any speed and I could clearly hear between the dits
without any artifacts such as clicks, and pops and no agc pumping.

---------------------------------------------

Thanks Tony. I can see the application in DX-ing at times. I appreciate your
insights.

If hearing between dits wasn't so intrusive to me, I'd use faster QSK, but I
find that it's not needed for the sort of operating I do so I was curious
about how it was being used by others.

I've always appreciated QSK - being able to hear between my "signals" - and
enjoy what I consider the K2's very smooth QSK. But then I can remember when
good "QSK" meant that the receiver AGC recovered within 5 seconds and I no
longer had to throw antenna and B+ switches to change between xmit and
receive.

It's a matter of what extreme you want, and the K2 is a good rig to push to
extremes. Wayne and Eric surely support it and the rig has been made
consistently better because of grumbling over issues like this.

Ron AC7AC

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Vic K2VCO

Re: K2 QSK

In reply to this post by Ron D'Eau Claire-2

Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> Vic wrote:
>
> In order to time your calls in a pileup, you need to hear the DX station
> start working another station or send TU after finishing a QSO.
> --------------------------
> In that case I'm not sending, so I don't need to hear between dits.

You're sending from the time that the DX finishes his QSO with one
station and until he starts a QSO with another (hopefully you). A DX
pileup can be 10 KHz (or more) wide. Generally one tries to find the
station that the DX is working, deduce the direction he is tuning, and
be in the right place. Sometimes it's very hard to get the guy he's
working, because lids will call continuously. I think of it like
hunting big game (not that I would ever do that, I like animals!) in
that you need to be in position and take your shot. Anything that
improves your ability to be in the right place at the right time makes
your shots more accurate. Shooting blind gets you nothing, but the more
*good* shots you take, the better your chances. This is why a second
receiver can be useful, with audio from the DX in one ear and the pileup
in the other ear. But it's absolutely necessary to hear him start
working the station so you know who to look for.

> I suspected that might be the most useful place for between-the-dits extreme
> QSK, where stations pile on top of each other without exercising any
> discipline at all. It does little good to keep shouting while the person
> whose attention you are trying to attract has responded to someone else,
> although I rather feel that if I'm QRMing the other person it was only
> because he/she was QRMing me by calling on top of me. I never start calling
> if I hear others calling before I start, and I expect anyone who responds
> more slowly to wait their turn. I know, that's not how many contesters
> behave.

In an 'asymmetric' situation, such as a station in NNY who has just come
on near the end of the Sweepstakes, there are lots of people that want
to work the running station. So everytime he stands by, a bunch of
people call. There are different strategies for getting through: you
can run 1.5KW and have an enormous antenna and try to blot out the other
callers (not as easy as it sounds because of propagation differences),
or you can use timing and placement to sneak by. Since I normally run
100 watts to a modest antenna, I have to do the latter. What I like to
do especially is wait for the first big blob of calls to drop a little
and then shoot my call in at high speed. It's very important to have
QSK because if you do this and the station comes back to someone, you
better stop sending immediately.

> Contesting is too often just a 'barroom brawl' on the Ham bands.
>
> That's why I disagree with those who claim that contesting produces useful
> skills for anything but contesting. That's like saying that being able to
> hold your own in a barroom brawl is good training for how to behave in
> polite company.
> I'll stick with polite company where people don't normally shout over me or
> try to interrupt in the middle of a word or even in mid-sentence!

I don't think good contesters do these things. I find that some
contests feel more like a competition among gentlemen than a brawl.
There will always be lids and those that cheat in some way, but in my
opinion, there are more lids among the DXers than the contesters.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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Ron D'Eau Claire-2

RE: K2 QSK

Thanks Vic!

Good points. Hmmm... It brings to mind an image of a "gentlemanly barroom
brawl", Hi!

Taking Contesting techniques to other types of operation is an old thread on
this reflector of course, and may well be on others.

In my experience it causes more confusion than efficiency. I always try to
avoid surprising people with my behavior. I find it results in less
confusion if things go pretty much as they expect. So when I call CQ and
someone comes back with "W6QAS", I'll still reply "W6QAS QRZ?" (W6QAS are
you calling me?).

Usually he was calling me, but not always and I have no interest in stomping
into the middle of a QSO, especially one I can only hear one side of.

It would have been faster if he had sent "AC7AC DE W6QAS K"

That's just one example of how the shorthand that actually makes things move
faster in a contest isn't really appropriate in other situations.

I'm not a big contester, so picture me the guy peeking in the door of the
western Saloon just after the gang at the poker table in the corner
discovered five Aces in the deck. It may be my lack of experience, but I
have a hard time telling those who are brawling from those trying to get out
of the way.

Ron AC7AC

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k6dgw

Re: K2 QSK

AC7AC wrote:
> Good points. Hmmm... It brings to mind an image of a "gentlemanly
> barroom brawl", Hi!

Took up contesting when I retired. Intimidating at first, but now I
liken it to Snowboard Cross or Short Track in the Winter Olympics ...
"'Physical contact' is permitted and there is no 'Kiss and Cry Corner'"

After finally realizing you have to turn the RS-232 interface ON in the
K2 menu (see male comment below), I recently got the K2/100 hooked up to
a port on the TR computer for contesting (far future plan is another
K2/100 for SO2R, or maybe I'll succumb to old age first). QSK got some
getting used to since I run semi-QSK on the TS-850 and I am not used to
hearing the other guy while I'm (or the computer is) sending. K2 is
such a better rig however, it was worth the effort to get them both
going for the comparison. Look for a large jump in my scores ... but
don't hold your breath unless you're a whale or a dolphin.

For the record, I run T-R at 0.02 because that was how the K2 was set
when it was born, I don't argue electronic design with Wayne, and I
didn't know what the menu item meant so I skipped it. Being male, I
didn't consult the manual for directions. I'll have to diddle with it
and see what happens.

Wonder how it affects the amplifier keying line from the KPA100?

Maybe we've seen the solar minimum ... nearly all the ECN stations on 20
this afternoon (including Kevin) were readable. With his antenna
pointed at the western frontier, Tom was full bars of course. At least
there's hope, and I'm going to stick to that story.

Fred K6DGW
Auburn CA CM98lw

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N2TK

RE: K2 QSK

In reply to this post by Ron D'Eau Claire-2

I do like the job Wayne and Eric did with the K2. That's why when at home I
use it as an outboard receiver on topband and that is the rig I take when I
head out of the country.

I agree. Constructive criticism is always good. That's how we keep improving
bit the equipment and our operating.

CU all in the pileups from WP2Z.

73,
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 3:52 PM
To: 'Elecraft Reflector'
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K2 QSK

Tony, N2TK wrote:

Hi Ron,
... this is an individual thing. Some folks don't care for QSK and some do.
It's no right or wrong, just a preference. To me a perfect QSK rig would be
one that I could send at any speed and I could clearly hear between the dits
without any artifacts such as clicks, and pops and no agc pumping.

---------------------------------------------

Thanks Tony. I can see the application in DX-ing at times. I appreciate your
insights.

If hearing between dits wasn't so intrusive to me, I'd use faster QSK, but I
find that it's not needed for the sort of operating I do so I was curious
about how it was being used by others.

I've always appreciated QSK - being able to hear between my "signals" - and
enjoy what I consider the K2's very smooth QSK. But then I can remember when
good "QSK" meant that the receiver AGC recovered within 5 seconds and I no
longer had to throw antenna and B+ switches to change between xmit and
receive.

It's a matter of what extreme you want, and the K2 is a good rig to push to
extremes. Wayne and Eric surely support it and the rig has been made
consistently better because of grumbling over issues like this.

Ron AC7AC

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