K2 high current on xmit

[Mike Knapp]

Hi all. I am building K2 #5644 and got to alignment part 3. However,
whenever I keyed the transmitter at 2W on any band, the power would
shoot up to 19-20 W and a high current message would come up.

In addition, I noticed that when I keep the power at 0.1 W, the
transmitter would work fine (clean CW output when I listened on my other
rig). This allowed me to check transmit voltages on the PA as well as
other transmit circuitry. This led me to find that Q24 was bad. I'm just
curious if Q24 failing would cause this kind of behavior.

Thanks,
-Mike N8YO
K2 #5644
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[Chuck Gehring]

I am getting ready to add a wireless router to my QTH computer set-up, the
XYL wants to be able to move room to room with her Notebook computer.  I
would like to solicit recommendations for routers.  I have heard some
reports about QRM from various routers.  I only have one radio, my K2 and it
will be about 2 feet from the computer and the router antenna about 2-3
feet.   I am currently considering the Linksys Wireless-N WRT300N.
Recommendations and replies off-line would be appreciated.

73 K2CG
Chuck Gehring
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[Don Wilhelm-3]

Mike,

Yes, a bad Q24 could possibly cause that problem.  Q24 has the VALC signal
applied to it, and that signal is the result of the K2 firmware attempting
to control the power output.  The action of Q24 is to control the amount of
BFO signal that is injected into the transmit chain.

Try it again with the new Q24 and let us know if you still have a problem -
there could be an error in the RF Detector or the path for the VRFDET
signal.

73,
Don W3FPR

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Mike Knapp
> Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 7:50 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] K2 high current on xmit
>
>
> Hi all. I am building K2 #5644 and got to alignment part 3. However,
> whenever I keyed the transmitter at 2W on any band, the power would
> shoot up to 19-20 W and a high current message would come up.
>
> In addition, I noticed that when I keep the power at 0.1 W, the
> transmitter would work fine (clean CW output when I listened on my other
> rig). This allowed me to check transmit voltages on the PA as well as
> other transmit circuitry. This led me to find that Q24 was bad. I'm just
> curious if Q24 failing would cause this kind of behavior.
>
> Thanks,
> -Mike N8YO
> K2 #5644
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>
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> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006
>
>

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[roncasa]

why off-line??
We want to know too!

Ron wb1hga

Chuck Gehring wrote:
    I would like to solicit recommendations for routers.  I have
heard some
   reports about QRM from various routers.


   I am currently considering the Linksys Wireless-N WRT300N.
   Recommendations and replies off-line would be appreciated.

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[Steven Pituch]

Hi all,
I have older Linksys wireless and "wire"  routers and they are the noisiest
things in the house.  I end up turning the entire network off when operating
HF.

Steve, W2MY

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 7/7/2006
 

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[Paul T. Rubin]

I want to know too.

I have a Linksys WRT54G which is about three years old. It produces so much
noise that I can't even listen to the local BCB station on 700KHz.

I thought that the 12V switching PS was responsible, but when I ran it off a
linear supply, the condition was unchanged.

I went back to using an old Netgear 11 Mb/s router, but now need a new one,
and an access point for full house coverage.

Paul  N8NOV

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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

Hmmm.. I have a linksys BEFW11S4 802.11b (2.4 GHz) four-port + wireless
router that has been sitting as close as two feet from my K2 with no
problems that I noticed. I don't listen to 700 kHz that often though so I
grabbed my portable BCB receiver and sure 'nuf, there's broadband  hash
about 700 kHz but only within a foot or two of the router. Six feet away and
I can't hear a thing!

These digital things are disasters waiting to happen to any analog gear
within range, as far as I'm concerned. They're like a girl friend I had in
college. Having her around offered some astounding benefits but they came
with some very significant disadvantages too...
Ron AC7AC



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Paul Rubin
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 7:51 PM
To: 'Chuck Gehring'; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Wireless Router Recommendations



I want to know too.

I have a Linksys WRT54G which is about three years old. It produces so much
noise that I can't even listen to the local BCB station on 700KHz.

I thought that the 12V switching PS was responsible, but when I ran it off a
linear supply, the condition was unchanged.

I went back to using an old Netgear 11 Mb/s router, but now need a new one,
and an access point for full house coverage.

Paul  N8NOV

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[Jim Brown-10]

>that has been sitting as close as two feet from my K2 with no
>problems that I noticed.

Proximity to the radio is meaningless. The following comments
apply to virtually ALL Ethernet devices, including your computers.
What matters are:

1) The antennas connected to the Ethernet device -- their length,
and their proximity to YOUR antennas (but NOT to your radio).

2) The design of the device with respect to SHIELDING of its own
internal wiring

3) The design of the device with respect to the internal
generation of RF trash

4) The design of the device with respect to keeping whatever trash
it produces off the antennas connected to it.

5) The directivity of the ham antennas and the Ethernet antennas.

Ah, you say, you don't connect antennas to it, only Ethernet
cables and a power supply lead. And if it's a router, the Cable TV
coax or DSL connection. But even though we don't call them
antennas, they ARE antennas, and they will radiate whatever RF
trash they carry just like any other antenna.

I have yet to find a piece of Ethernet gear that doesn't put out
trash on the ham bands. Some are worse than others, and Linksys
has been viewed as really bad. But when I switched to Netgear
switches to get rid of noise, I noticed no difference!  

MOST of the noise in the equipment I've tested comes out of the
box as a COMMON MODE signal, and is radiated by those cables as if
they were a long wire antenna. The good news is that the noise can
be greatly reduced by winding some turns of both the Ethernet
cables and the power supply cables around the RIGHT ferrite
toroids. Once you do that, you're left with what comes out of the
box due to poor shielding. And, of course, whatever is radiated by
your neighbors systems that are close enough to your radio
antennas to be loud enough to hear. [You can identify 10BaseT
Ethernet as the source by listening around 10,106 kHz, 10,120 kHz,
14,030 kHz, 21,052 kHz for strong carriers with some subtle
modulation. While we buy 100BaseT gear, it carries both 10BaseT
and 100BaseT traffic, and most routers and modems talk 10BaseT.
These carriers are not based on a clock with a tight frequency
tolerance, so every system is running on a slightly different
frequency. That's why, for example, you will hear carriers between
about 14,029 and 14,030.5 kHz.]  

I just moved from a city lot in Chicago (neighbors 15 ft from my
house in every direction) to a rural area in CA (one neighbor 250
ft, another 350 ft, others at least double that). In Chicago, my
ham antennas were all within 20 ft of Ethernet cables. Here in CA,
the closest ones are at least three times that distance. In
Chicago, I could get my own trash down to a bit above the noise
level, but I still heard my neighbors loud and clear. Here in CA,
I don't hear anything from these Ethernet systems, even though my
noise level on the ham bands is way down too!

There is a detailed tutorial on ferrites on my website, along with
presentations I've done to a couple of ham clubs. All can be
downloaded as pdf files. No cost, no cookies.

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/publish

BTW -- shielded Ethernet cable doesn't help -- for the shield to
do anything, it would need to be connected at both ends, and you
would be hard put with these boxes to find a connection that meant
anything.

73,
Jim Brown K9YC


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[Ken Alexander-2]

--- Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:
> These digital things are disasters waiting to happen
> to any analog gear
> within range, as far as I'm concerned. They're like
> a girl friend I had in
> college. Having her around offered some astounding
> benefits but they came
> with some very significant disadvantages too...
> Ron AC7AC

Oddly enough, the disadvantages to both usually have
to do with excessive noise!  ...just an observation.

73,

Ken Alexander
VE3HLS
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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

Jim, K9YC wrote:
Proximity to the radio is meaningless. The following comments
apply to virtually ALL Ethernet devices, including your computers.
What matters are:

1) The antennas connected to the Ethernet device -- their length,
and their proximity to YOUR antennas (but NOT to your radio)

----------------------------------------

My router for a while sat a on a shelf just about 20 inches from my
link-coupled tuner. This is an "open" tuner design using a large 3" dia by
10" long open coil with a big transmitting-type variable cap across it (you
can see a picture of it on www.QRZ.com; just look up AC7AC. The router was
on a shelf under the desk about where my knees are in the picture).

Sure, this is a balanced antenna system and the idea is to prevent pickup
and radiation from the balanced feed and tuner, but the balance is never
perfect. As the photo shows, the feeders drop down near the table top (and
the wireless router just below) where they pass through a header to the
outside.  

As I wrote before, digital stuff generates noise; I'd be the last person to
deny that. It's sometimes very hard to do anything effective about it.
Still, the situation varies so much from installation to installation that
only the most general "rules of thumb" might suggest what an particular
installation will produce.

That is what I was trying to convey by relating my particular experience.

Ron AC7AC


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[roncasa]

Thank you Jim for that very informative and helpful message!

Ron, wb1hga

Jim Brown wrote:

  > Proximity to the radio is meaningless. The following comments

> apply to virtually ALL Ethernet devices, including your computers.
> What matters are:
>
> 1) The antennas connected to the Ethernet device -- their length,
> and their proximity to YOUR antennas (but NOT to your radio).
>
> 2) The design of the device with respect to SHIELDING of its own
> internal wiring
>
> 3) The design of the device with respect to the internal
> generation of RF trash
>
> 4) The design of the device with respect to keeping whatever trash
> it produces off the antennas connected to it.
>
> 5) The directivity of the ham antennas and the Ethernet antennas.

> MOST of the noise in the equipment I've tested comes out of the
> box as a COMMON MODE signal, and is radiated by those cables as if
> they were a long wire antenna. The good news is that the noise can
> be greatly reduced by winding some turns of both the Ethernet
> cables and the power supply cables around the RIGHT ferrite
> toroids. Once you do that, you're left with what comes out of the
> box due to poor shielding. And, of course, whatever is radiated by
> your neighbors systems that are close enough to your radio
> antennas to be loud enough to hear. [You can identify 10BaseT
> Ethernet as the source by listening around 10,106 kHz, 10,120 kHz,
> 14,030 kHz, 21,052 kHz for strong carriers with some subtle
> modulation. While we buy 100BaseT gear, it carries both 10BaseT
> and 100BaseT traffic, and most routers and modems talk 10BaseT.
> These carriers are not based on a clock with a tight frequency
> tolerance, so every system is running on a slightly different
> frequency. That's why, for example, you will hear carriers between
> about 14,029 and 14,030.5 kHz.]  

>
> There is a detailed tutorial on ferrites on my website, along with
> presentations I've done to a couple of ham clubs. All can be
> downloaded as pdf files. No cost, no cookies.
>
> http://audiosystemsgroup.com/publish
>
> BTW -- shielded Ethernet cable doesn't help -- for the shield to
> do anything, it would need to be connected at both ends, and you
> would be hard put with these boxes to find a connection that meant
> anything.

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[Paul T. Rubin]

Ron:

First a correction. The Router is a WRT54, the first in the series. Not the
newer G models.

I get noise of significant magnitude all the way up to about 17 Mhz, with
occasional huge spikes, as the one at 700. I don't hear it at just 2 feet. I
hear it at 50 feet, in the backyard, in the car in the driveway, and on
every communications receiver in the house fed from a Butternut HV-9, or a
66 ft dipole at 40 ft. I'm not saying this degree of noise is typical of
other Lynksys products, or even of other WRT54's, just mine.

I seem to remember the ARRL had some sort of RFI testing program for
consumer products. I should send it to them.

73  Paul  N8NOV






>Hmmm.. I have a linksys BEFW11S4 802.11b (2.4 GHz) four-port + wireless
router that has been sitting as close as two feet from my K2 with no
problems that I noticed. I don't listen to 700 kHz that often though so I
grabbed my portable BCB receiver and sure 'nuf, there's broadband  hash
about 700 kHz but only within a foot or two of the router. Six feet away and
I can't hear a thing!



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