K2 vs K3 re: final COST

[DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL]

A comparison of the kit K2 vs the modular K3 has previously been made:

http://www.ac6rm.net/mailarchive/html/elecraft-list/2007-05/msg00837.html

If you add on the cost of a builder, shipping from the builder back to
you, then you have to REALLY want a K2 to cost-justify getting one
now.

Did Elecraft unintentionally put the K2 semi-official "builders" out to pasture?

Very happy with my K2; anxiously awaiting my K3 (and even more
anxiously awaiting the receiver specs for the K3 which, I hope, will
precede the arrival of my K3!).

de Doug KR2Q
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[Jim AB3CV]

Welcome to the economics of SMT: tape and reel vs poly bags for kits,
relentless and unerring automated assembly and volume economics benefits of
the basic parts.

When added to the technical benefits of improved parasitics and thermals it
puts thruhole on the endangered species list.

73

jim ab3cv

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[Don Wilhelm-3]

DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL wrote:
>
> Did Elecraft unintentionally put the K2 semi-official "builders" out to
> pasture?
>
Doug,

That may likely be true that a fair price to build the K2 will cast a
shadow on the K3 kit price.

Comparisons are being made between an assembled K2 and the K3 kit price.
  When you use the assembled K3 prices, there is still room for the
lower priced K2. the kit to assembled differential on the K3 adds $200
or more depending on the power level, sub-receiver, etc.

The K2 is still more modular than the K3, so in cases where the buyer
wants a basic QRP K2 with no options, it may be cost effective for some.

73,
Don W3FPR


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[Julian, G4ILO]

On 7/1/07, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Comparisons are being made between an assembled K2 and the K3 kit price.
>   When you use the assembled K3 prices, there is still room for the
> lower priced K2. the kit to assembled differential on the K3 adds $200
> or more depending on the power level, sub-receiver, etc.
>
> The K2 is still more modular than the K3, so in cases where the buyer
> wants a basic QRP K2 with no options, it may be cost effective for some.

I don't think price enters into it if you want the fun of building
your radio. I seem to remember that Heathkit radios were more
expensive than ready built Japanese gear. Perhaps that's why they went
out of business, but it wouldn't have stopped me buying one if I'd had
the money back in thise days.

--
Julian, G4ILO
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
www.Ham-Directory.com: the best ham resources on the net
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[Fred (FL)]

I doubt if it is SMT devices and auto-board
stuffers that made the economy of K3 what it is.
Electronic integration marches on.  Remember the
Collins 75A4, or Heath Marauder?  Now it is possible
to put just about everything, save the large L's,
into siicon.  I suspect one bright engineer on
the Elecraft staff - could layout 5 or 6 MOSIS
silicon circuits (ala USC/ISIS) - to cover a
large percentage of a K3, add in a LSI Logic
device for the DSP, and perhaps 1 Analog Devices
linear device - for the K4 control logic -
and the whole K4 could be integrated into just
the Control/User Panel.  Maybe pack it all -
into the ATU.

I remember, not too many years ago (88),
having a meeting in a room at Bell Lab's Allentown
facility (or was it NJ) - and behind me on
the wall of that lab - which had a brass plaque
which read "... in this lab in 1953 (or whatever
the correct year was), the first transistor
IC was invented".   Wow - time marches on!

I saw it again, when I peeked inside a 2007
IC-706MKIIG at the top board - and saw
literally 100's and 100's of SMT devices,
on 1 board.  And we are seeing it again, in
the soon to be shipped K3.  Wow - can't
wait.

de, Fred N3CSY


       
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[AJSOENKE]

Most of the posts, so far, have dealt with the  K2/K3 cost differential on a
basis of fun to build and production manufacturing  economics. In the SMT vs
PTH/discreet component examples cited there was limited  mention of the vastly
expanded capabilities and somewhat improved performance -  not to mention the
many new options and programming features of the K3. Needless  to say (and I
believe Brian noted) the fact that the change to SMT was largely  driven by the
extreme addition of parts count to duplicate the process using  PTH/discreet.
Packaging such a system would be nightmarish and much more  expensive.

Considering the many anticipated advantages of the K3 over a  K2, even a
modest added cost would more than justify the purchase for an  individual not
strongly driven by the addictive scent of vaporized pine  resin.
It is also quite possible that the assembly of the K3 is within the  
capabilities of the prospective buyer, giving them the possibility of doing  something
more than opening a box and not quite as challenging as a  K2.

It may be suggested that VLSI/LSI designs could also reduce the parts  count
and simplify assembly. No doubt, but the economics of the design of the  
device and finding a manufacturer who would tool up and run the devices at an  
affordable level is highly unlikely at the quantities involved. That sort of  
setup usually requires 10s of thousands to even consider. BTDT.

An  example from industry involved a unit that is part of a military weapons
system  that ran into the 20,000 plus range of deliveries. Cost was
substantial and the  device ran on a single VLSI programmable device. After producing
10,000 units,  it was decided to regress to a device that was two LSI OTS
devices and some  added discreets. The redesign of the PWB and changes in production
tooling etc  was far offset by the lower cost of the custom VLSI and reduced
the price of the  system to the customer (taxpayer) by 10%  

73 Al WA6VNN



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[N2EY]

In a message dated 7/1/07 5:55:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:


> I doubt if it is SMT devices and auto-board
> stuffers that made the economy of K3 what it is.

I think it is.

> Electronic integration marches on.



 Remember the
>
> Collins 75A4, or Heath Marauder?  

Yes. They had several sources of cost:

1) Lots of small-run custom parts
2) Lots of expensive parts
3) Lots of assembly labor (75A-4) or lots of manual-writing labor (any Heath)

Remember that both of those were designed, manufactured and sold long before
CADD or desktop publishing were available. When a change was made, they
*literally* went back to the drawing board.


Now it is possible
>
> to put just about everything, save the large L's,
> into siicon.  

I don't think so.

There's a lot of quartz in a K2 or K3. Lots of relays and fairly large
capacitors, too.

But even if almost all of a K3 could be put on silicon, that doesn't mean
it's the best way to do the job.

I suspect one bright engineer on

>
> the Elecraft staff - could layout 5 or 6 MOSIS
> silicon circuits (ala USC/ISIS) - to cover a
> large percentage of a K3, add in a LSI Logic
> device for the DSP, and perhaps 1 Analog Devices
> linear device - for the K4 control logic -
> and the whole K4 could be integrated into just
> the Control/User Panel.  Maybe pack it all -
> into the ATU.
>

Maybe. But there would be a lot of issues to deal with, such as coupling and
isolation, high power RF, etc.

The problem with custom parts is that for a small-run item like a ham rig,
the economics may not be there, compared to using as many stock parts as
possible. The 75A-4 and Marauder used a lot of custom parts because there was no
other option back then.

There's also the factor of how long we expect a system to last, and what we
consider the ultimate failure mode and repairability. We hams tend to expect
our rigs to last decades, not years, and we expect them to be repairable, not
"if it breaks after the warranty runs out, go buy another one".

> I remember, not too many years ago (88),
> having a meeting in a room at Bell Lab's Allentown
> facility (or was it NJ) - and behind me on
> the wall of that lab - which had a brass plaque
> which read "... in this lab in 1953 (or whatever
> the correct year was), the first transistor
> IC was invented".   Wow - time marches on!
>

1959, IIRC.

> I saw it again, when I peeked inside a 2007
> IC-706MKIIG at the top board - and saw
> literally 100's and 100's of SMT devices,
> on 1 board.  And we are seeing it again, in
> the soon to be shipped K3.  Wow - can't
> wait.
>

One of the things that made Heathkit and other kit companies like Eico and
EFJohnson was the economics of electronics manufacture. In the days of
point-to-point wiring, the labor of assembling even a simple piece of
electronics was a considerable part of the selling price. Heath etc. could offer a
competitive price by eliminating that labor cost. That had to be balanced
against the cost of writing the assembly manuals, and having to come up with designs
that didn't need lots of test gear. Automated assembly largely eliminated
that cost advantage for Heath.

Elecraft's advantage so far has been the use of elegant design (hence the
name) to minimize the number of custom parts used, and the overall number of
parts used. Look at a basic K2 - it's a couple of small circuit boards in an
ingenious cabinet, with almost no wires at all. The K3 is a somewhat new direction,
in that the components are boards.

73 de Jim, N2EY


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[Augie "Gus" Hansen]

>> remember, not too many years ago (88),
>> having a meeting in a room at Bell Lab's Allentown
>> facility (or was it NJ) - and behind me on
>> the wall of that lab - which had a brass plaque
>> which read "... in this lab in 1953 (or whatever
>> the correct year was), the first transistor
>> IC was invented".   Wow - time marches on!
> 1959, IIRC.

Actually, the transistor was "born" in the Labs in late 1947. It became
available at an affordable price to kids like me (and grownups, too) by
the early 1950s when Raytheon produced the CK722. I bought my first one
at the tender age of nine to build transistor projects that appeared in
articles in Popular Electronics and other magazines of the day.

Gus Hansen
KB0YH

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[Augie "Gus" Hansen]

>>> ... which had a brass plaque
>>> which read "... in this lab in 1953 (or whatever
>>> the correct year was), the first transistor
>>> IC was invented".   Wow - time marches on!
>> 1959, IIRC.
>
> Actually, the transistor was "born" in the Labs in late 1947. It
> became available at an affordable price to kids like me (and grownups,
> too) by the early 1950s when Raytheon produced the CK722. I bought my
> first one at the tender age of nine to build transistor projects that
> appeared in articles in Popular Electronics and other magazines of the
> day.

I hate having to correct my own email responses, but I missed an
important detail in the original post: It refers to the first transistor
"IC." So the correction indicating 1959 is right. I recall a side trip
tour of Bell Labs at Murray Hill in early 1961 when I was trying to
decide where to go for an EE degree program. One of the  labs we toured
was involved in perfecting integrated circuit design and fabrication
techniques, and we were told that they had been working on this project
for few years. The primary goal of that particular project was to
improve the high frequency performance of the devices.

Gus Hansen
KB0YH

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