K3 #1037 in IARU contest

[Ed Gray W0SD]

The IARU contest was the first chance to try SN#1037 out in more crowed
band conditions.  We were multi-op single transmitter so three persons
used the radio and we were both CW and SSB. It was a serious effort with
1967 contacts in the 24 hours and over 1,000,000 points.  All the
operators did not have any trouble adapting to the radio having never
used a K3 before.

What a joy to have a radio that gets around a multitude of problems most
radios have such as the FT-1000D 1000MP, TX-950SDX, Mark V, etc. in
setting up for a contest.  CW with the computer into the key jack and
paddle in the paddle jack using the internal keyer is Plug and Play.

Heil HC4 was plug and play.  We used the front connector with the
Kenwood Heil adaptor.  I had read some reports about the connector not
being sturdy one the front but I certainly find it to be fine.  Since
the adapter sticks out close to 2 inches there would be some lever arm
in effect if you banged some thing heavy against it but the mike
connector is as sturdy as other radios I have.  We may move to the
connections on the back of the radio.  If you don't have your radio yet
the manual clearly states for the HC4 and HC5 Heil to have the bias
turned off.  It plugs into the back or for the front use the Kenwood
Heil adaptor.

We did not have a lot of time to set up the audio but I will concur with
what Ed W0YK has said and that is to not set the mic gain to high.  We
got good audio reports and no bad ones.  Different operators have
different voices and one needs to get levels set up so the DVR from the
computer has similar levels on the line in to the microphone.  Our
settings were good for two of us using the high level input.  We ran the
mike at 15 and the compression at 20.  I really could not hear much
change until about 15 on the compression and at 20 I could hear what I
would call moderate compression.  The third person spoke much softer so
we had to do some on the fly adjustment whenever he was on SSB which was
easy to do and after that he could do it himself.

We used some equalization starting with W0YK's suggested setting.  It
seemed to give the audio a little more highs.  I need to do more testing
here but it does work.  I will say if you don't have a low pitched voice
the audio without any equalization changes for contesting or busting
pileups is A OK.

BTW having just got back from operating TO5E for 10 days the on the air
audio of 40% of the hams we worked is a VERY, VERY sad commentary on
operators inability to operate there equipment correctly.  They sounded
horrible.  On the positive side about 40% were excellent for cutting the
pile up and were still excellent communication quality.  About 20% had
good rag chewing audio. The K3 "TEST" mode should make it possible for
any amateur to make sure there signal sounds OK.  Obviously or lets say
I assume the 40% that sounded terrible had never listened to themselves.
   When I say terrible I really mean it!!!

The DVR from the computer into the Line input is plug and play but you
have to adjusted the level as per the manual. Using DVR from the
computer worked great.  We had no issues at all.  The VOX/Anti-VOX and
delay worked extremely well.  This is the best VOX I have ever used.  We
always have foot switches so if the VOX starts acting up we can shut it
off and keep on going.  We never had any issues or need for that with
the K3 in the first contest with it.

The filters were 2.7  5 pole,  1.8 khz   8 pole,  500 hz 5 pole and 200
hz  5 pole.  Admittedly we have a lot of learning to do in regards to
shift and lo-hi cut but we used them enough to know they are going to be
awesome assets and made some qso's possible we could not of made without
them.  Anyway all the operators were impressed with how easy it was to
use the width control and used it a lot.  I came away with the definite
impression that one can do well with less filters as the DSP handles
things well even when things are crowed with strong signals.  The 1.8
khz filter is a big time winner for SSB contesting.  For a non contester
it would not be nearly as big an issue but if you operate 20 meters a
lot it would be good as it always seems crowded with someone close by
that is strong.  We have more to learn but we used w0YK's suggested "IF
shift of -500 hz(FC of 1.10 khz)" which makes the 1.8 khz filter very
pleasant to listen to. Anyway as a number of people have said it is very
good advice if you are not a contester to not get a lot of filters until
you have used the radio.  You may very well find you are totally happy
with just the DSP filtering.  Possibly you might want an 500hz filter is
you do CW.

We also have a lot of learning to do in regards to the Noise Blanker.
Fortunately we don't have much power line noise here but we did use it
on 10 meters(we had some high wind which bounces the power lines around)
at a setting I previously had chosen and it worked great. We found no
issues with the pre-amp on and splatter from nearby stations.

We found no issues with the pre-amp on and adjacent signal problems
which is a first for me with any radio.  Lots of audio gain on rcv on 10
meters where I have always been short of in other radios.  The FT-1000D
is really low on audio on 10 meters.

Used the notch was no problem.  It worked good in auto and manual is
totally intuitive.

On setting up I thought the VOX-Break delay was a menu setting like VOX
Gain and Anti-VOX but a quick reading of the manual showed it is the
hold in position on the speed/Mike knob.  Yes I have read the manual
several times over the past few months but obviously I read this section
to fast.  We ended up with .4 which seemed to work out good with our DVR
and CW keying. We did not seem to have any problem with missing people
coming back.  This seemed a little long to me but worked fine.

This radio will handle issues with hot switching with such amplifiers as
the ACOM 1000.  A have an IC-746 and also an FT-897 and they put out a
pulse at full power even when the power is turned down so they do not
work well with a lot of amplifiers.  With the TX delay you can handle
this situation for most amplifiers.  The K3 does not have the pulse of
power out either.  The normal .08 was fine for my homebrew 8877 or Alpha 99.

We did not have time to set the memories up so just putting a CW band
frequency in VFO A and SSB in VFO B and changing bands by entering the
frequency worked fine for us.  No one complained about doing it this
way.  Ultimately I will make use of the memories.

The RIT was easy to use or you can use split.  It sure is nice to go to
the slow tuning rate  or quickly to fast depending on what you are doing.

The only operator error is one person got the radio in the test mode
accidentally and wondered why they suddenly had no output power.  I was
able to instantly diagnose what happened.

The front stand is perfect for viewing the radio.  For tuning it might
be a little lower as you have to raise your wrist to tune but certainly
it did not show up as a factor using it for 24 hours in a row.  It is
important to learn how to use all the tuning rate controls which
minimizes how much you need to turn the tuning knob.  Remember we just
used freq. entry a lot and it is quick.  Much quicker than you would
think.  Remember for example to get to 14.0000 all you need to do is
freq. enter (tap) 14 and  tap the enter arrow(AFX button).  It basically
takes 2 seconds.

We had a low PA temp the whole contest.  We will see what a RTTY contest
brings but I see no problem at all with an RTTY contest being on the
whole contest. The on and off between rec. and transmit will cut the
duty cycle down and on average one probably is going to be around 50-70
watts out to drive the amplifier so that will keep the PA temperature
down as well.

One last comment the yellow light coming on with the red light when tbe
transmit and recieve frequencies or modes are different due to the use
of split, RIT or XIT is a great idea.  It really helped the new guys
operating split ssb on 40 meters.

Last but one of my big concerns in the hectic operation in a contest was
would the small, light K3 not slide around on the table tuning and
hitting button.  Secondly would the buttons be to small/hard to operate,
etc.  It did not slide around and the buttons have plenty of room
between them and are very readable with no glasses for my eyesight at 65
years years of age. Will the buttons work 10 years from now?  Basically
each button only has two functions gotten by a tap or hold so one can
not complain about menus.  VOX gain and anti-vox being a menu item could
be a problem with different operators in a contest and varying
background noise but we found it to be a non-issue.  Back to the buttons
from what I read they are good for a lot of operations.  As long as the
modules are available a new front panel could be put in if it becomes an
issue.

If you are setting on the fence wondering if you should buy this radio
let me assure you the radio is "SOLID" and extremely well thought out
and with Firmware changes will continue to get better.

IMHO the proof of this is we had three people using the radio and two of
them with zero time in front of the radio and the only time I had to
help during the contest is when the one fellow accidentally got into the
TEST mode.  This was after less than 5 minutes instruction before the
contest.  The K3 is just intuitive to operate.

Ed W0SD





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[Jim Brown-10]

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:16:37 -0500, Ed Gray W0SD wrote:

>BTW having just got back from operating TO5E for 10 days the on the air
>audio of 40% of the hams we worked is a VERY, VERY sad commentary on
>operators inability to operate there equipment correctly.  They sounded
>horrible.  On the positive side about 40% were excellent for cutting the
>pile up and were still excellent communication quality.  About 20% had
>good rag chewing audio. The K3 "TEST" mode should make it possible for
>any amateur to make sure there signal sounds OK.  Obviously or lets say
>I assume the 40% that sounded terrible had never listened to themselves.
>   When I say terrible I really mean it!!!

I STRONGLY AGREE!  For at least the past five years, there are guys
trying to do serious contesting whose transmit audio, especially on
computer playback, is so awful that I can't copy their call, even when
they're 30 dB above the noise, and even when I listen to their CQ more
than a dozen times!  It's serious distortion, plain and simple, probably
caused by badly overdriving the audio input of the radio. This is so bad
that there are guys I simply could not work because I couldn't copy their
call. In some cases, I called these guys anyway, worked them, then got a
fill on their call from his live mic.

Ed -- please send this part of your commentary to NCJ and every contest
forum you can think of, especially those that hams from other countries
will read. It is VERY much needed.

73,

Jim Brown K9YC


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[k6dgw]

Jim Brown wrote:

>
> I STRONGLY AGREE!  For at least the past five years, there are guys
> trying to do serious contesting whose transmit audio, especially on
> computer playback, is so awful that I can't copy their call, even when
> they're 30 dB above the noise, and even when I listen to their CQ more
> than a dozen times!  It's serious distortion, plain and simple, probably
> caused by badly overdriving the audio input of the radio. This is so bad
> that there are guys I simply could not work because I couldn't copy their
> call. In some cases, I called these guys anyway, worked them, then got a
> fill on their call from his live mic.

I have a hearing deficiency and SSB contesting for me is pretty much a
non-starter because of people's incredibly poor DVK audio, noise, hum,
RF feedback, bad levels, and the like.  And many need to crawl up into
the mic and get rid of the background noise.  When I first tried the K3
on SSB, I was stunned by the background noise from the amplifier fan,
the room fan, and general household noises I could hear in the monitor.
  I could even hear the TV from the living room weakly behind my voice,
the shack is several doors away from the living room, and my wife who
was watching it at that moment can hear just fine and keeps the volume low.

Several years ago, I got a friend maybe 6 or 7 miles away to record my
transmitter on his computer and send me the MP3 file.  It sounded OK,
but not great.  Gonna do it again with the K3 ... at least I can do
something about it with this radio :-)

Slightly different subject, I wouldn't mind at all if the K3 had more
audio available in the headfones from both the monitor and sidetone.
Don't know, but maybe that's a firmware thing?  Most everything else is
these days.  I'm not going to file an ADA suit over it, however :-)

And on the educational front, I finally figured out how to use the
"I/II" presets during the IARU this weekend.  How very cool!!!

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2008 Cal QSO Party  4-5 Oct 08
- www.cqp.org
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[Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO]

This is probably slightly OT, but Ed's and Jim's comments prompt me to take
this thread further.

I can add my agreement to the generally poor state of the transmitters of a
few of the top contest operators on 6 meters during the recent ARRL contest.
Some of them you could literally hear 20 kHz away on either side -- with the
NB off, the preamp bypassed, and the attenuator kicked in to boot. Of
course, this is just plain unacceptable technically, but more to the point,
it is very rude and not in keeping with long-standing amateur traditions of
technical excellence.

Now, I've been told a couple times times that I was splattering, and in all
cases it was found to be untrue, as reported by other stations on the
frequency who were using correctly adjusted receivers and confirmed I was
about 2.4 kHz wide. (The complaining station having his noise blanker
enabled is the most usual culprit, though you would think all hams would
know about this and check for it before opening their mouths.)

When you have done your technical due-dilligence on the receive end and you
know for a fact that another station is splattering badly and QRMing you and
a lot of other people... How do you tell him? Or do you? I hate creating bad
feelings on the air, and the usual rejoinder when I've actually tried this
is angry defensiveness and sometimes even abusiveness.

Jim and Ed, your thoughts would be appreciated, along with those of others
who are long-time SSB contest operators.

Bill W5WVO


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 #1037 in IARU contest

> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:16:37 -0500, Ed Gray W0SD wrote:
>
> >BTW having just got back from operating TO5E for 10 days the on the air
> >audio of 40% of the hams we worked is a VERY, VERY sad commentary on
> >operators inability to operate there equipment correctly.  They sounded
> >horrible.  On the positive side about 40% were excellent for cutting the
> >pile up and were still excellent communication quality.  About 20% had
> >good rag chewing audio. The K3 "TEST" mode should make it possible for
> >any amateur to make sure there signal sounds OK.  Obviously or lets say
> >I assume the 40% that sounded terrible had never listened to themselves.
> >   When I say terrible I really mean it!!!
>
> I STRONGLY AGREE!  For at least the past five years, there are guys
> trying to do serious contesting whose transmit audio, especially on
> computer playback, is so awful that I can't copy their call, even when
> they're 30 dB above the noise, and even when I listen to their CQ more
> than a dozen times!  It's serious distortion, plain and simple, probably
> caused by badly overdriving the audio input of the radio. This is so bad
> that there are guys I simply could not work because I couldn't copy their
> call. In some cases, I called these guys anyway, worked them, then got a
> fill on their call from his live mic.
>
> Ed -- please send this part of your commentary to NCJ and every contest
> forum you can think of, especially those that hams from other countries
> will read. It is VERY much needed.
>
> 73,
>
> Jim Brown K9YC
>
>
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[AC7AC]

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

[N5GE]

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:48:12 -0700, "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>When you have done your technical due-dilligence on the receive end and you
>know for a fact that another station is splattering badly and QRMing you and
>a lot of other people... How do you tell him? Or do you? I hate creating bad
>feelings on the air, and the usual rejoinder when I've actually tried this
>is angry defensiveness and sometimes even abusiveness.
>
>W5WVO
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>
>Bill, this has nothing in particular to do with contest operating. I believe
>taking the abuse from the few is a part of our responsibilities as Hams.
>
>It's been a long time since a Ham license test including drawing an accurate
>block diagram of a rig, or of evaluating a schematic diagram of a key stage
>in a rig and finding a purposely included error, or of describing to an FCC
>engineer how to properly evaluate a transmitter's signal.  
>
>Even then, passing a test and actually knowing how to operate a rig, are two
>different things. And knowing and caring are, for a desperate few, two
>different things as well. So even when we had such tests, there were those
>who didn't understand on the air.
>
>I suspect the numbers have increased. I have heard operators complain about
>getting a bad signal report, saying something like "I PAID TEN THOUSAND
>DOLLARS FOR THIS RIG. NO ONE IS GOING TO TELL ME IT ISN'T PERFECT!!!"

Heh, heh.  I too could even make ole #806 sound bad if I wanted to.  Nobody
looks at a scope any more and those that don't have scopes don't pay enough
attention to their ALC meters.  They just crank up the mic gain and compression
until they get the highest indicate average power they can get.  Many thanks to
the ARRL and W5YI for making it so easy to get a license these days!

>
>When I hear a bad signal, I say so, politely and clearly. If the other
>operator is offended, perhaps he/she needs to grow up or find a new hobby.
>
>I expect nothing less from those who I work on the air.
>
>Ron AC7AC
[snip]

Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq

"Those who would give up
Essential Liberty to
purchase a little Temporary
Safety deserve neither
Liberty nor Safety"

An excerpt from a letter
written in 1755 from the
Assembly to the Governor
of Pennsylvania.

Support the entire Constitution, not
just the parts you like.

http://www.n5ge.com
http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE

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[Jim Brown-10]

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:49:25 -0700, Fred Jensen wrote:

>Slightly different subject, I wouldn't mind at all if the K3 had more
>audio available in the headfones from both the monitor and sidetone.

Fred,

There's an AF Gain setting in the Config Menu. Check that it's set to
"HI."  If you need more, maybe I can help you find headphones with higher
voltage sensitivity.

Jim





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[Jim Brown-10]

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:33:34 -0600, Bill W5WVO wrote:

>Jim and Ed, your thoughts would be appreciated, along with those of others
>who are long-time SSB contest operators.

I'm certainly not an expert on the politics or psychology of it, but my mom
had no shy children, and I have on more than one occasion let someone know
when they are making nasties. I do the same thing when fools talk through
jazz concerts ("could you please yell a little louder? -- we're missing
words now and then"). Responses range from thanks to screw you. No
surprise.

IMO, good hams appreciate being told when they're making a mess, and they
do something about it. Three examples. A year or so ago, I modded a rig to
add an RX antenna input the day before a 160 contest. It caused the rig to
oscillate when I switched to one of the Beverages, and I was making a mess.
Someone told me, I thanked them, did a workaround for the rest of that
night that prevented the splatter, and did a real fix the next day. If I
hadn't been able to fix it I would have gone QRT or switched to a different
rig. A few months earlier, my neighbor K6XX told me I was making clix. We
spent 10-20 minutes chasing it down to the carrier detection circuitry in a
TimeWave ANC-4. I pulled it out of line, and now we can work within a kHz
or so of each other (we both use K3s and kW amps). And a few months before
that, I told K6XX he was making clix on FD. It was an FT1000MP he had
bought used a few days before, and it didn't have the click mod. He fixed
it the next week!  

73,

Jim K9YC




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[gm3sek]

Bill W5WVO wrote:

>This is probably slightly OT, but Ed's and Jim's comments prompt me to take
>this thread further.
>
>I can add my agreement to the generally poor state of the transmitters of a
>few of the top contest operators on 6 meters during the recent ARRL contest.
>Some of them you could literally hear 20 kHz away on either side -- with the
>NB off, the preamp bypassed, and the attenuator kicked in to boot. Of
>course, this is just plain unacceptable technically, but more to the point,
>it is very rude and not in keeping with long-standing amateur traditions of
>technical excellence.
>
>Now, I've been told a couple times times that I was splattering, and in all
>cases it was found to be untrue, as reported by other stations on the
>frequency who were using correctly adjusted receivers and confirmed I was
>about 2.4 kHz wide. (The complaining station having his noise blanker
>enabled is the most usual culprit, though you would think all hams would
>know about this and check for it before opening their mouths.)
>

A feature of contesting is the larger percentage of guest operators who
are totally unfamiliar with the equipment they're using. An additional
feature of VHF contesting is the larger number of temporary hilltop
stations, which are assembled for the weekend and haven't been properly
run-in.

Also, the demands for clean signals are greater at VHF, because the
strong signals are stronger than at HF, and weak signals are weaker.

As someone who has been involved with clean signals on VHF/UHF for a
very long time, I don't think the problem has become significantly worse
in recent years. It can happen at any time, because every individual has
to learn - and some people never will.

This last group is a nightmare for responsible 'station engineers' who
are trying their best to put out a clean signal for the whole
24/48hours. Some people simply cannot be trusted to leave the MIC and
PWR controls alone.  (Still, everything has its compensations: such
people are also the least likely to notice that those controls have been
disconnected, and replaced by trimpots behind the panel  :-)


>When you have done your technical due-dilligence on the receive end and you
>know for a fact that another station is splattering badly and QRMing you and
>a lot of other people... How do you tell him? Or do you?

Yes, you do tell him.  The line that sometimes works is "I'm afraid you
have a problem: your signal is a lot broader than others of the same
strength. Can I help you to do some tests?"

>I hate creating bad
>feelings on the air, and the usual rejoinder when I've actually tried this
>is angry defensiveness and sometimes even abusiveness.
>
The defensiveness comes from not having any clue how to fix the problem
and the feeling that they have to press on with making QSOs. A contest
is absolutely the worst time to be setting up the station for a clean
signal, because the tests require time, patience and a quiet band.

On the other hand, the information has been available for a very long
time:
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/cleansig/no-splat.htm

If you do complain during a contest, you need to be prepared to commit
some of your own time to helping fix the problem. You may also need to
understand the other station's setup much better than the guy who's
sitting there looking at it!

Coming back on-topic, a feature for the K3 that could be very helpful in
setting RF output and compression levels would be a peak-holding RF
output meter (for SSB only, just like the CONFIG: SMTR PK option). Or is
it already there and I missed it?


--

73 from Ian GM3SEK
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek
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[Lennart Michaëlsson]

Ian said:
---
Coming back on-topic, a feature for the K3 that could be very helpful in
setting RF output and compression levels would be a peak-holding RF
output meter (for SSB only, just like the CONFIG: SMTR PK option). Or is
it already there and I missed it?


--

73 from Ian GM3SEK
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek

Yes, that is very good Ian, may I just add that on CW similiar problems can
occur.
Two important steps to be taken are:
- Use proper timing when running a power amplifier. The K3 TD delay can be
adjusted to cope with most modern amp?s thus avoiding hot switching (and key
clicks)
- Never use any more drive power than needed.

Those two steps reduce key clicks.
73
Len
SM7BIC

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[David Cutter]

It has recently astonished me just how deaf some headphones are.  In my work
I was given aircraft headphones that needed 2W to get the same audio output
as our own make that needed about 20mW.  That quick test with the spl meter
needs to be repeated on a calibrated jig and I'll be taking my ham phones in
to get them checked.  I'll post the results here.

David
G3UNA



----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 #1037 in IARU contest

> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:49:25 -0700, Fred Jensen wrote:
>
>>Slightly different subject, I wouldn't mind at all if the K3 had more
>>audio available in the headfones from both the monitor and sidetone.
>
> Fred,
>
> There's an AF Gain setting in the Config Menu. Check that it's set to
> "HI."  If you need more, maybe I can help you find headphones with higher
> voltage sensitivity.
>
> Jim
>
>

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[alsopb]

David,

Glad somebody else is experiencing this.   I tried plugging in a set of
Heil BM-10 earphones into the K3.   It was if the leads were shorted.
I sent them back to Heil who declared them within spec.   I tried an el
cheapo computer 32 ohm headset with only slight improvement.
Odd thing is the el cheapo headset had plenty of volume when plugged
into the computer for it's intended use.

In general the earphones with the larger headphone size produce more
volume.  I finally ended up with a plantronix headphone set which has
adequate, but not stellar volume.

In all fairness the Heil BM-10 didn't work too well on an IC-706 either.

Somewhere there is now a disconnect between headphone manufacturers and
rig manufacturers.    I suppose there may be some regulations or
guidelines that may be getting in the way too.   However, for many of
us, it's too late to protect against somewhat diminished hearing.   We
need something which puts out the volume needed..

Note: My recollection on using a Heil BM-10 perhaps 10 years ago was
that it was just fine in the volume area.  Two factors come to mind:
1) It was used with an older radio that had lots of audio output
2) I'm now 10 years older.

Maybe it is both of the above.

Perhaps Elecraft can somehow  provide more earphone volume.   The
speaker output will knock your socks off.

73 de Brian/K3KO

David Cutter wrote:

> It has recently astonished me just how deaf some headphones are.  In
> my work I was given aircraft headphones that needed 2W to get the same
> audio output as our own make that needed about 20mW.  That quick test
> with the spl meter needs to be repeated on a calibrated jig and I'll
> be taking my ham phones in to get them checked.  I'll post the results
> here.
>
> David
> G3UNA
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brown"
> <[hidden email]>
> To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 8:01 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 #1037 in IARU contest
>
>
>> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:49:25 -0700, Fred Jensen wrote:
>>
>>> Slightly different subject, I wouldn't mind at all if the K3 had more
>>> audio available in the headfones from both the monitor and sidetone.
>>
>>
>> Fred,
>>
>> There's an AF Gain setting in the Config Menu. Check that it's set to
>> "HI."  If you need more, maybe I can help you find headphones with
>> higher
>> voltage sensitivity.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
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>

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[w7aqk]

I'll add my displeasure as well with regard to Heil
headphones.  I have 3 Heil headsets--the BM-10, the Heil
Pro-Set Plus, and the Elecraft Pro-Set (made by Heil).  In
all cases the headphones suck!  At least as far as output
goes.  I don't know what Heil does to their headphones, but
it seems that output is not one of their concerns.  Perhaps
there is some other aspect they are trying to emphasize.  I
don't even try to use any of my Heil's with my K2, as it has
rather low audio output anyway.  In fact, I have two K2's,
and both are extremely close, so I think I know it's not a
problem with the rig itself--other than the fact that K2's
don't have great audio output.  A good pair of Sony earbuds
(which have relatively high sensitivity) provides a very
stark difference in output.  Or, plug in a Kenwood headset,
and you will notice a similar improvement.  I actually
intended to ask the Heil folks at Dayton about this, but
everytime I went by their booth they were very busy, and I
didn't want to hang around just to complain about their
product.  Bob Heil seems like a nice enough fellow, and I
could probably just send him an email or something (he's
responded personally to questions I've had in the past), but
I really wanted to ask in person so as hopefully not to
convey that I'm just some 'whiner".  Maybe someone else
knows the answer?

Dave W7AQK

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Alsop" <[hidden email]>
To: "David Cutter" <[hidden email]>;
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 4:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio output v headphone
sensitiviy

> David,
>
> Glad somebody else is experiencing this.   I tried
> plugging in a set of Heil BM-10 earphones into the K3.
> It was if the leads were shorted.
> I sent them back to Heil who declared them within spec.
> I tried an el cheapo computer 32 ohm headset with only
> slight improvement.
> Odd thing is the el cheapo headset had plenty of volume
> when plugged into the computer for it's intended use.
>
> In general the earphones with the larger headphone size
> produce more volume.  I finally ended up with a plantronix
> headphone set which has adequate, but not stellar volume.
>
> In all fairness the Heil BM-10 didn't work too well on an
> IC-706 either.
>
> Somewhere there is now a disconnect between headphone
> manufacturers and rig manufacturers.    I suppose there
> may be some regulations or guidelines that may be getting
> in the way too.   However, for many of us, it's too late
> to protect against somewhat diminished hearing.   We need
> something which puts out the volume needed..
> Note: My recollection on using a Heil BM-10 perhaps 10
> years ago was that it was just fine in the volume area.
> Two factors come to mind:
> 1) It was used with an older radio that had lots of audio
> output
> 2) I'm now 10 years older.
>
> Maybe it is both of the above.
>
> Perhaps Elecraft can somehow  provide more earphone
> volume.   The speaker output will knock your socks off.
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
>
> David Cutter wrote:
>
>> It has recently astonished me just how deaf some
>> headphones are.  In my work I was given aircraft
>> headphones that needed 2W to get the same audio output as
>> our own make that needed about 20mW.  That quick test
>> with the spl meter needs to be repeated on a calibrated
>> jig and I'll be taking my ham phones in to get them
>> checked.  I'll post the results here.
>>
>> David
>> G3UNA
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brown"
>> <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 8:01 AM
>> Subject: Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 #1037 in IARU contest
>>
>>
>>> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:49:25 -0700, Fred Jensen wrote:
>>>
>>>> Slightly different subject, I wouldn't mind at all if
>>>> the K3 had more
>>>> audio available in the headfones from both the monitor
>>>> and sidetone.
>>>
>>>
>>> Fred,
>>>
>>> There's an AF Gain setting in the Config Menu. Check
>>> that it's set to
>>> "HI."  If you need more, maybe I can help you find
>>> headphones with higher
>>> voltage sensitivity.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Post to: [hidden email]
>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft   Help:
>> http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>
>
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[Bill W4ZV]

David Yarnes wrote

I'll add my displeasure as well with regard to Heil
headphones.  I have 3 Heil headsets--the BM-10, the Heil
Pro-Set Plus, and the Elecraft Pro-Set (made by Heil).  In
all cases the headphones suck!  At least as far as output
goes.  

I wonder if some of you may be going deaf?  I have a Heil BM-10 that I've had for ~30 year and two Heil Pro-Sets that I've had for ~20 years.  I just checked using my XG1 at 50 uV, AGC-Fast and RF Gain Max.  I have plenty of audio on both Pro-Sets with AF gain at ~10 o'clock.  The BM-10 is slightly better at 9:30 o'clock.  For comparison, my current favorite Extreme Isolation EX-29 is at ~9 o'clock.  

I have no complaints about the Heils but now prefer the EX-29, mainly because its external noise isolation is far superior (and also much better than any active noise reduction headphones).

73,  Bill

[Jim Brown-10]

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 07:22:42 -0700, David Yarnes wrote:

>I'll add my displeasure as well with regard to Heil headphones.  

I don't know anything specific about Heil headsets (except that
the electronics in some that I've used at contest stations have
bad RFI problems).

I work in the pro audio world, and my ears are nearly 67 years
old. In other words, I'm an EE, a trained listener, and I've got
some hearing loss, like anyone of my age. I own several types of
pro headphones, all of which work VERY well with every ham rig
I've ever plugged them into. They sound good, are plenty loud, are
well built, and are comfortable to wear through a long contest
weekend.

They are the Etymotic Research ER4, the Shure E3 and E4, and the
Sony MDR-7506 and MDR-V6. The Shure products are designed for use
by musicians on stage, and have recently acquired new model
numbers to avoid confusion with competing products.

There is a more detailed discussion of audio and headphones in one
of the appendices of my tutorial on RFI, ferrites, common mode
chokes, and audio interfacing.

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

Another ham recently noted in a private email that he had tried a
set of specialized earphones with a peaky response supposedly
tailored for "communications" and found that they rang very badly.
That doesn't surprise me. Good communications headphones should
have flat, neutral, accurate response with minimal distortion and
phase shift. The human ear/brain does not like peaky response or
phase shift. We have plenty of it our radios, and designers of
those radios work very hard to make it well behaved. The last
thing we need is more of it in our headphones.

73,

Jim Brown K9YC



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[K7TV]

What is adequate headphone sensitivity may be highly dependent on operating mode and rig selectivity.
Case in point: Many years ago I ordered an FT-1000 and a Heil headset (forget which model). Headset volume was fine for voice, and for CW using a wide filter. But the FT-1000, like the K3, can be set to very narrow CW filtering. This brings down the noise to far below what you have at more "normal" bandwidth. On a quiet band one can then work CW stations that are extremely weak. In my case, that is where the Heil headset became unuseable, because of inadequate volume. In my opinion, when trying to copy the weakest possible CW signal for a given bandwidth, the gain needs to be high enough that the noise level is quite loud. I sent the Heil headset back to the store. This episode begs the question: The K3 being famous for its "quiet" receiver, does it have enough rx audio gain to provide a loud background noise level in CW mode using the 50 Hz bandwidth, for an average speaker or for a reasonable headset (not Heil!)?

Bill W4ZV wrote

David Yarnes wrote

I'll add my displeasure as well with regard to Heil
headphones.  I have 3 Heil headsets--the BM-10, the Heil
Pro-Set Plus, and the Elecraft Pro-Set (made by Heil).  In
all cases the headphones suck!  At least as far as output
goes.  

I wonder if some of you may be going deaf?  I have a Heil BM-10 that I've had for ~30 year and two Heil Pro-Sets that I've had for ~20 years.  I just checked using my XG1 at 50 uV, AGC-Fast and RF Gain Max.  I have plenty of audio on both Pro-Sets with AF gain at ~10 o'clock.  The BM-10 is slightly better at 9:30 o'clock.  For comparison, my current favorite Extreme Isolation EX-29 is at ~9 o'clock.  

I have no complaints about the Heils but now prefer the EX-29, mainly because its external noise isolation is far superior (and also much better than any active noise reduction headphones).

73,  Bill

[WILLIS COOKE]

I have not heard of 32 ohm impedance headphones.  The
DC resistance is not the impedance, but a 600 ohm pair
might have 32 ohms resistance measured with an ohm
meter.  Of course, I don't know what the British
military used.  The US used 600 ohm.

Measuring several headsets resistance of the headsets
in my shack shows all kinds of resistances.  Some
Realistic (Radio Shack) stereo 8 ohms show 9 ohms with
the stereo speakers wired in parallel.  A Sony Walkman
stereo headset measures 30 ohms on each speaker.  A
Heil BM10 measures 32 ohms for each speaker.  A Heil
Pro-Set shows 215 Ohms on each speaker.  A Telex Model
A610-1 Military Surplus mono headset labeled 600 ohms
measures 285 ohms.  A Telex A1210 mono headset to FAA
Spec TSO C57 measures 615 ohms.  All of them work OK
with my TS-850 without major audio gain adjustments
from the speaker.

Cookie, K5EWJ
 
--- David Cutter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> They are 32ohm: don't know if the ear pieces are
> wired in series or
> parallel.  Didn't observe the manufacturer, but I'll
> get back to them in a
> couple of days and let you know.
>
> David
> G3UNA
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "WILLIS COOKE" <[hidden email]>
> To: "David Cutter" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 5:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio output v headphone
> sensitiviy
>
>
> > The aircraft headphones are probably 600 ohm
> > impedance.  Most ham headphones are 8 ohms.
> >
> > --- David Cutter <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> It has recently astonished me just how deaf some
> >> headphones are.  In my work
> >> I was given aircraft headphones that needed 2W to
> >> get the same audio output
> >> as our own make that needed about 20mW.  That
> quick
> >> test with the spl meter
> >> needs to be repeated on a calibrated jig and I'll
> be
> >> taking my ham phones in
> >> to get them checked.  I'll post the results here.
> >>
> >> David
> >> G3UNA
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]>
> >> To: "Elecraft Reflector"
> <[hidden email]>
> >> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 8:01 AM
> >> Subject: Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 #1037 in IARU
> contest
> >>
> >>
> >> > On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:49:25 -0700, Fred Jensen
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>Slightly different subject, I wouldn't mind at
> all
> >> if the K3 had more
> >> >>audio available in the headfones from both the
> >> monitor and sidetone.
> >> >
> >> > Fred,
> >> >
> >> > There's an AF Gain setting in the Config Menu.
> >> Check that it's set to
> >> > "HI."  If you need more, maybe I can help you
> find
> >> headphones with higher
> >> > voltage sensitivity.
> >> >
> >> > Jim
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Post to: [hidden email]
> >> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> >> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> >>  http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >>
> >>
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> >> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
> >>
> >
> >
> > Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
> > K5EWJ
>
>

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[alsopb]

These are exactly the condx the BM-10 are useless for here.
.
73 de Brian/K3KO
K7TV wrote:

>What is adequate headphone sensitivity may be highly dependent on operating
>mode and rig selectivity.
>Case in point: Many years ago I ordered an FT-1000 and a Heil headset
>(forget which model). Headset volume was fine for voice, and for CW using a
>wide filter. But the FT-1000, like the K3, can be set to very narrow CW
>filtering. This brings down the noise to far below what you have at more
>"normal" bandwidth. On a quiet band one can then work CW stations that are
>extremely weak. In my case, that is where the Heil headset became unuseable,
>because of inadequate volume. In my opinion, when trying to copy the weakest
>possible CW signal for a given bandwidth, the gain needs to be high enough
>that the noise level is quite loud. I sent the Heil headset back to the
>store. This episode begs the question: The K3 being famous for its "quiet"
>receiver, does it have enough rx audio gain to provide a loud background
>noise level in CW mode using the 50 Hz bandwidth, for an average speaker or
>for a reasonable headset (not Heil!)?
>
>
>Bill W4ZV wrote:
>  
>
>>
>>David Yarnes wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>I'll add my displeasure as well with regard to Heil
>>>headphones.  I have 3 Heil headsets--the BM-10, the Heil
>>>Pro-Set Plus, and the Elecraft Pro-Set (made by Heil).  In
>>>all cases the headphones suck!  At least as far as output
>>>goes.  
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>I wonder if some of you may be going deaf?  I have a Heil BM-10 that I've
>>had for ~30 year and two Heil Pro-Sets that I've had for ~20 years.  I
>>just checked using my XG1 at 50 uV, AGC-Fast and RF Gain Max.  I have
>>plenty of audio on both Pro-Sets with AF gain at ~10 o'clock.  The BM-10
>>is slightly better at 9:30 o'clock.  For comparison, my current favorite
>>Extreme Isolation EX-29 is at ~9 o'clock.  
>>
>>I have no complaints about the Heils but now prefer the EX-29, mainly
>>because its external noise isolation is far superior (and also much better
>>than any active noise reduction headphones).
>>
>>73,  Bill
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>
>  
>

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[alsopb]

 From the K3 manual page 20
"Sterero or Mono 16 ohm min. recommended"

32 ohm earphones are quite common.  Not surprising 16 ohms is the
paralleled configuration of the two 32 ohm individual ear sides for mono.

I first ran into 32 ohm earphones for an FT1000MP.

73 de Brian/K3KO

WILLIS COOKE wrote:

>I have not heard of 32 ohm impedance headphones.  The
>DC resistance is not the impedance, but a 600 ohm pair
>might have 32 ohms resistance measured with an ohm
>meter.  Of course, I don't know what the British
>military used.  The US used 600 ohm.
>
>Measuring several headsets resistance of the headsets
>in my shack shows all kinds of resistances.  Some
>Realistic (Radio Shack) stereo 8 ohms show 9 ohms with
>the stereo speakers wired in parallel.  A Sony Walkman
>stereo headset measures 30 ohms on each speaker.  A
>Heil BM10 measures 32 ohms for each speaker.  A Heil
>Pro-Set shows 215 Ohms on each speaker.  A Telex Model
>A610-1 Military Surplus mono headset labeled 600 ohms
>measures 285 ohms.  A Telex A1210 mono headset to FAA
>Spec TSO C57 measures 615 ohms.  All of them work OK
>with my TS-850 without major audio gain adjustments
>from the speaker.
>
>Cookie, K5EWJ
>
>--- David Cutter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>They are 32ohm: don't know if the ear pieces are
>>wired in series or
>>parallel.  Didn't observe the manufacturer, but I'll
>>get back to them in a
>>couple of days and let you know.
>>
>>David
>>G3UNA
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "WILLIS COOKE" <[hidden email]>
>>To: "David Cutter" <[hidden email]>
>>Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 5:26 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 audio output v headphone
>>sensitiviy
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>>>The aircraft headphones are probably 600 ohm
>>>impedance.  Most ham headphones are 8 ohms.
>>>
>>>--- David Cutter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>It has recently astonished me just how deaf some
>>>>headphones are.  In my work
>>>>I was given aircraft headphones that needed 2W to
>>>>get the same audio output
>>>>as our own make that needed about 20mW.  That
>>>>        
>>>>
>>quick
>>    
>>
>>>>test with the spl meter
>>>>needs to be repeated on a calibrated jig and I'll
>>>>        
>>>>
>>be
>>    
>>
>>>>taking my ham phones in
>>>>to get them checked.  I'll post the results here.
>>>>
>>>>David
>>>>G3UNA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]>
>>>>To: "Elecraft Reflector"
>>>>        
>>>>
>><[hidden email]>
>>    
>>
>>>>Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 8:01 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: Re: [Elecraft] K3 #1037 in IARU
>>>>        
>>>>
>>contest
>>    
>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:49:25 -0700, Fred Jensen
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>>Slightly different subject, I wouldn't mind at
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>all
>>    
>>
>>>>if the K3 had more
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>>audio available in the headfones from both the
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>monitor and sidetone.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Fred,
>>>>>
>>>>>There's an AF Gain setting in the Config Menu.
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>Check that it's set to
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>"HI."  If you need more, maybe I can help you
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>find
>>    
>>
>>>>headphones with higher
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>voltage sensitivity.
>>>>>
>>>>>Jim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Elecraft mailing list
>>>>Post to: [hidden email]
>>>>You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>>>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>>>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
>>>K5EWJ
>>>      
>>>
>>    
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
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>
>  
>

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[Jim Brown-10]

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 10:29:13 -0700 (PDT), WILLIS COOKE wrote:

>I have not heard of 32 ohm impedance headphones.  

Headphones are built with a wide range of rated impedances,
including 32 ohms. Another important specification is "voltage
sensitivity" in dBSPL for some specified voltage.

See Appendix 6 of http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

73,

Jim K9YC


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