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123

WA2SI

Re: u want nice audio?

How about Palstar's offering?

http://www.palstar.com/sp30.php

Vy 73 de Bert
WA2SI
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Ian Maude

Re: u want nice audio?

Bert Craig wrote:
> How about Palstar's offering?
>
> http://www.palstar.com/sp30.php
God that's ugly :)

73 Ian

--

Ian J Maude, G0VGS
SysOp GB7MBC DX Cluster
Member RSGB, GQRP
K2 #4044 |K3 #455

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Stewart Baker

Re: u want nice audio?

Looks more like an Air Freshener ::-)

73
Stewart G3RXQ
On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:17:33 +0100, Ian Maude wrote:
> Bert Craig wrote:
>> How about Palstar's offering?
>>
>> http://www.palstar.com/sp30.php
> God that's ugly :)
>
> 73 Ian

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WA8EBM

Re: u want nice audio?

In reply to this post by WA2SI

Run 2 of them with my K3 and they are superb.
Mike WA8EBM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bert Craig" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] u want nice audio?

> How about Palstar's offering?
>
> http://www.palstar.com/sp30.php
>
> Vy 73 de Bert
> WA2SI
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>

k0wa@swbell.net

Re: u want nice audio?

In reply to this post by Charly

On my K3, I've been using Midland Communication speakers. These speakers are like the Motorola speakers N0SS recommends. I have two so I can use the AFX feature of the radio.

I tried many speakers over the last several months. Various computer speakers in all different types of variations. I do like the communication speakers the best. I know they were designed to be mobile speakers, but they have a very full sound with them. The Midland speakrs are 4 ohm speakers and I found that the K3 seemed lot happier with 4 ohm speakers rather than 8 ohm speakers

Speaker technology is complex and very interesting. You can read a lot about speakers and enclosures on the internet. The science is interesting and very understandable from a non-engineering perspective.

Lee - K0WA

In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply. If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it. If you can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense. Is Common Sense divine?
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w7go

Re: u want nice audio?

In reply to this post by Ian Maude

I have a Sounds Sweet, it's bigger and uglier. :>)

73
Tony W7GO

Ian Maude wrote:
> Bert Craig wrote:
>> How about Palstar's offering?
>>
>> http://www.palstar.com/sp30.php
> God that's ugly :)
>
> 73 Ian
>
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Trevor Smithers

RE: Re: K3 Audio

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-3

>All of this is consistent with the K3 Manual which says:

| LIN OUT settings above 10 are usually not necessary,
| and can in some cases cause overloading of either the
| K3s output transformers or the PC soundcard inputs
| (typically on noise peaks). Either could degrade the
| performance of digital demodulation software.

This is news to me - when did this rather crucial change take place, and more
importantly what else has changed. My manual says the default for Line Out is 30.

Having now looked at the latest manual I can see the reference but what I don't see is
the errata sheet detailing all the other changes in the new manual.

Not getting at you Joe, in fact I'm grateful to you for pointing it out.

73 to all
Trevor G0KTN
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WA2SI

Re: u want nice audio?

In reply to this post by Ian Maude

Hi Hi, and I chose not to suggest the Sounds Sweet speaker due to its
aesthetics. I thought the SP 30 better matched the Elecraft "look." I do
love my Sounds Sweet audio for SSB though.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Maude" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] u want nice audio?

> Bert Craig wrote:
>> How about Palstar's offering?
>>
>> http://www.palstar.com/sp30.php
> God that's ugly :)
>
> 73 Ian
>
> --
>
> Ian J Maude, G0VGS
> SysOp GB7MBC DX Cluster
> Member RSGB, GQRP
> K2 #4044 |K3 #455
> _______________________________________________
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>

W8JI

Re: Re: K3 Audio

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-3

For the benefit of W8JI ... saturation is a good description
of
the behavior. When adjusting the Line Out level above 1V
peak,
any single tone in the audio spectrum appears to be clipped
at the 1V level. Although this could be due to clipping in
the
audio amplifier, given the manual warning, transformer
saturation
appears to be the more likely explanation. >>

My point is "saturation" is probably one of the most
overused terms to describe problems with transformers or
things with soft iron cores. When a balun gets hot, people
call it "saturating" even though it virtually never is
actually saturating. Same for inductors, and I've seen the
same for transformers in everything from old AM gear to
modern equipment.

I doubt it is a "cheap transformer". More likely the load
is wrong, the driver is mismatched or at a power limit, or
someone just has the levels way too high for the equipment
design.

My K3 has no issues at all at rated levels.

73 Tom

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Bob Cunnings NW8L

Re: Re: K3 Audio

When the LINE OUT transformer issue was first being discussed on this
list I took a look at the data sheet for the device:

http://www.tamuracorp.com/clientuploads/pdfs/engineeringdocs/TTC-108.pdf

It's a 600 ohm transformer, rated for 7dBm max (about 1.7 Vrms across 600 ohms).

Bob NW8L

On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Tom W8JI <[hidden email]> wrote:

> For the benefit of W8JI ... saturation is a good description of
> the behavior. When adjusting the Line Out level above 1V peak,
> any single tone in the audio spectrum appears to be clipped
> at the 1V level. Although this could be due to clipping in the
> audio amplifier, given the manual warning, transformer saturation
> appears to be the more likely explanation. >>
>
> My point is "saturation" is probably one of the most overused terms to
> describe problems with transformers or things with soft iron cores. When a
> balun gets hot, people call it "saturating" even though it virtually never
> is actually saturating. Same for inductors, and I've seen the same for
> transformers in everything from old AM gear to modern equipment.
>
> I doubt it is a "cheap transformer". More likely the load is wrong, the
> driver is mismatched or at a power limit, or someone just has the levels way
> too high for the equipment design.
>
> My K3 has no issues at all at rated levels.
>
> 73 Tom
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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w7aqk

Re: u want nice audio?

In reply to this post by Charly

Charles and All,

Any audio buff will tell you that you can substantially enhance a radio by
putting a better speaker on it! That holds true with the K3 as well. I use
a Sounds Sweet external speaker at home, and it does wonders for the audio
out, just like it does on every other radio I own! Actually I don't think
the audio is all that bad with the K3's internal speaker, but it's only a 3$
or $4 speaker, which you can get from Jameco (that's where Elecraft gets
them I think). It certainly isn't "Hi-Fi" however! I guess I don't
understand your point, or why you are making an apples and oranges
comparison.

Dave W7AQK

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Harpole" <[hidden email]>
To: "Stewart Baker" <[hidden email]>; "Koppendorfer Klaus"
<[hidden email]>; "Ian Maude" <[hidden email]>; "elecraft Reflector"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 1:49 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] u want nice audio?

U want to hear nice ham audio?

Listen to an SX-101 with the 12 inch Hallicrafters matching spkr.

Listen to a Collins 75A-4 with its matching speaker.

Otherwise, 3 inch tin is tin and the laws of physics still apply.

73

Charles Harpole

[hidden email]

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 09:28:21 +0100
> Subject: Re: AW: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
> CC:
>
> Is that really so ?
>
> If that's the case, then the design is poor..
>
> 73
> Stewart G3RXQ
> On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 09:32:55 +0200, Koppendorfer Klaus wrote:
>> did you use the line out ?? The Line Output
>> transformers of the K3, saturate at normal program levels
>> try Headphone out on Frontplate and you will see no Harmonic´s
>>
>> 73
>> OE6KYG
>> KX1 244
>> K2 1331
>> K3 115
>>
>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>> Von: [hidden email] [mailto:elecraft-
>>> [hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Ian Maude
>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 06. August 2008 09:27
>>> An: elecraft Reflector
>>> Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
>>>
>>> Bob Cunnings wrote:
>>>> If you listen to Sherwood's presentation, you'd hear him state
> that
>>>> the distortion problem he discusses occurs only when driving a
> low
>>>> impedance (speaker) load. If driving a high Z load like, say,
> powered
>>>> speakers, or using headphones, there is no problem.
>>>>
>>> There is still a bit of a problem on receive audio. This has
> been there
>>> for some time and exists in the form of harmonics. The 3rd
> harmonic is
>>> quite easy to see and repeatable. I used HRD to show this on
> the
>>> waterfall after a conversation with a friend.
>>> You can clearly see the harmonic at..
>>>
>>> http://www.gb7mbc.net/docs/K3Audiotrace.doc
>>>
>>> 73 Ian
>>>> So that might explain your observations.
>>>>
>>>> Bob NW8L
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Geoffrey Downs
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Would be interesting to know the detail of what Rob Sherwood
> said, but
>>> I
>>>>> agree with you, Dave. The tx and rx audio on my K3 sounds
> cleaner,
>>> brighter
>>>>> and clearer to me than my now obsolescent FT1000MP Field even
> before
>>>>> applying any equalisation. I use either a headset or a couple
> of small
>>>>> external computer speakers.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73 to all
>>>>>
>>>>> Geoff
>>>>> G3UCK
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4AON"
>>>
>>>>> To:
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 9:55 PM
>>>>> Subject: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bottom line to me is the K3's audio is fine. And no, I'm not
> on
>>> commission
>>>>>> from Elecraft!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 73 Dave, G4AON
>>>>>> K3/100 #80
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>> Post to: [hidden email]
>>>>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>>>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>>>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Post to: [hidden email]
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>>>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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>>>>
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Ian J Maude, G0VGS
>>> SysOp GB7MBC DX Cluster
>>> Member RSGB, GQRP
>>> K2 #4044 |K3 #455
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Post to: [hidden email]
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>>>
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>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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Jim Brown-10

Re: AW: Re: K3 Audio

In reply to this post by Stewart Baker

On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 09:28:21 +0100, Stewart Baker wrote:

>Is that really so ?

Yes. See http://audiosystemsgroup.com/FilterTestNotes.pdf

Jim K9YC

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Alexandr Kobranov

Re: Re: K3 Audio

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-3

I can confirm cca 20dB lower level of 3rd harmonics on front panel
phones output against rear panel line out. Main versus 3rd harmonics
is 50dB resp. 7OdB on line-out resp. phones output here.
Just tried with on-board sound card od my Dell workstation.
(using Spectran SW and output level adjusted for the same peak out
level on Spectran screen).
Maybe later will try with Firebox sound card which has better parameters.
Lexa, ok1dst

Joe Subich, W4TV napsal(a):

>
>> There is still a bit of a problem on receive audio. This has
>> been there for some time and exists in the form of harmonics.
>> The 3rd harmonic is quite easy to see and repeatable. I
>> used HRD to show this on the waterfall after a conversation
>> with a friend. You can clearly see the harmonic at..
>
> You are overdriving your sound card or the line out transformer
> in the K3.
>
> I have measured the third harmonic using an audio spectrum analyzer
> at both the line out and headphone jacks of my K3. Until the level
> becomes excessive (> .7V RMS on the Line Out) the third harmonic is
> more than 50 dB down (Line Out) and more than 70 dB down (headphones).
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

Tom McCulloch

Re: u want nice audio?

In reply to this post by w7aqk

I have a "Sounds Sweet" speaker also...does a nice job although somewhat
large. I think I paid wither $99 or $110 a while back after it was reviewed
in QST. I see it is at $160 now..not worth that much $ though, IMHO.
Tom
wb2qdg
k2 1103

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Yarnes" <[hidden email]>
To: "Charles Harpole" <[hidden email]>; "Stewart Baker"
<[hidden email]>; "Koppendorfer Klaus" <[hidden email]>; "Ian
Maude" <[hidden email]>; "elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] u want nice audio?

> Charles and All,
>
> Any audio buff will tell you that you can substantially enhance a radio by
> putting a better speaker on it! That holds true with the K3 as well. I
> use a Sounds Sweet external speaker at home, and it does wonders for the
> audio out, just like it does on every other radio I own! Actually I don't
> think the audio is all that bad with the K3's internal speaker, but it's
> only a 3$ or $4 speaker, which you can get from Jameco (that's where
> Elecraft gets them I think). It certainly isn't "Hi-Fi" however! I guess
> I don't understand your point, or why you are making an apples and oranges
> comparison.
>
> Dave W7AQK
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Harpole" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Stewart Baker" <[hidden email]>; "Koppendorfer Klaus"
> <[hidden email]>; "Ian Maude" <[hidden email]>; "elecraft Reflector"
> <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 1:49 AM
> Subject: [Elecraft] u want nice audio?
>
>
>
> U want to hear nice ham audio?
>
> Listen to an SX-101 with the 12 inch Hallicrafters matching spkr.
>
> Listen to a Collins 75A-4 with its matching speaker.
>
> Otherwise, 3 inch tin is tin and the laws of physics still apply.
>
> 73
>
> Charles Harpole
>
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 09:28:21 +0100
>> Subject: Re: AW: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
>> CC:
>>
>> Is that really so ?
>>
>> If that's the case, then the design is poor..
>>
>> 73
>> Stewart G3RXQ
>> On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 09:32:55 +0200, Koppendorfer Klaus wrote:
>>> did you use the line out ?? The Line Output
>>> transformers of the K3, saturate at normal program levels
>>> try Headphone out on Frontplate and you will see no Harmonic´s
>>>
>>> 73
>>> OE6KYG
>>> KX1 244
>>> K2 1331
>>> K3 115
>>>
>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>> Von: [hidden email] [mailto:elecraft-
>>>> [hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Ian Maude
>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 06. August 2008 09:27
>>>> An: elecraft Reflector
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
>>>>
>>>> Bob Cunnings wrote:
>>>>> If you listen to Sherwood's presentation, you'd hear him state
>> that
>>>>> the distortion problem he discusses occurs only when driving a
>> low
>>>>> impedance (speaker) load. If driving a high Z load like, say,
>> powered
>>>>> speakers, or using headphones, there is no problem.
>>>>>
>>>> There is still a bit of a problem on receive audio. This has
>> been there
>>>> for some time and exists in the form of harmonics. The 3rd
>> harmonic is
>>>> quite easy to see and repeatable. I used HRD to show this on
>> the
>>>> waterfall after a conversation with a friend.
>>>> You can clearly see the harmonic at..
>>>>
>>>> http://www.gb7mbc.net/docs/K3Audiotrace.doc
>>>>
>>>> 73 Ian
>>>>> So that might explain your observations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob NW8L
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Geoffrey Downs
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Would be interesting to know the detail of what Rob Sherwood
>> said, but
>>>> I
>>>>>> agree with you, Dave. The tx and rx audio on my K3 sounds
>> cleaner,
>>>> brighter
>>>>>> and clearer to me than my now obsolescent FT1000MP Field even
>> before
>>>>>> applying any equalisation. I use either a headset or a couple
>> of small
>>>>>> external computer speakers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 73 to all
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Geoff
>>>>>> G3UCK
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4AON"
>>>>
>>>>>> To:
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 9:55 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bottom line to me is the K3's audio is fine. And no, I'm not
>> on
>>>> commission
>>>>>>> from Elecraft!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 73 Dave, G4AON
>>>>>>> K3/100 #80
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>>> Post to: [hidden email]
>>>>>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>>>>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>>>>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>> Post to: [hidden email]
>>>>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>>>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>>
>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>>>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Ian J Maude, G0VGS
>>>> SysOp GB7MBC DX Cluster
>>>> Member RSGB, GQRP
>>>> K2 #4044 |K3 #455
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Post to: [hidden email]
>>>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
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>>>>
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Re: K3 Audio

In reply to this post by Bob Cunnings NW8L

On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 11:14:51 -0600, Bob Cunnings wrote:

>It's a 600 ohm transformer, rated for 7dBm max (about 1.7 Vrms
>across 600 ohms).

This datasheet does not show a graph of distortion vs level vs
frequency, but it is specified for 300Hz - 3.5 kHz, and its
frequency response is specified at 0 dBm (0.78 vrms).

It is well known that saturation in transformers is a function of
the core, and increases rapidly at lower frequencies below the
design limits of the core. As audio transformers go, these are
small transformers. They are specifically designed for telecom,
where levels are generally well controlled and there's no energy
below 300 Hz. They're fine at low levels, but if you overdrive
them or feed them LF, the DO saturate, and both IM and harmonic
distortion can get nasty. They ARE big enough for the intended use
-- driving a sound card to decode RTTY and PSK -- but you've got
to keep the level down in the range where they're designed to
operate.

See http://audiosystemsgroup.com/FilterTestNotes.pdf for my
measurements with a high quality professional FFT analysis system.

BTW -- Jensen Transformers are pretty much the accepted standard
for professional audio transformers, and their data sheets are
quite detailed. You can learn a lot about how transformers behave
by studying them. http://www.jensen-transformers.com/

73,

Jim Brown K9YC

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Alexandr Kobranov

Re: Re: K3 Audio

In reply to this post by Alexandr Kobranov

I just made two basic samples using K3 and TS-850 using Firebox
external soundcard and Winrad SW.

You can see screenshot from K3 line-out audio on

http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/line_out_firebox_winrad.jpg

This is K3 with 400Hz roofing filter on some stable carrier.
LINE OUT setting on level 9.

Then the same signal with the same af level (no change in Firebox
input mixer settings) with TS-850

http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/ts850_af_firebox_winrad.jpg

This is my TS-850 with 400Hz inrad filter and output from phones jack.
There are also some "ghosts" in af spectrum, generaly more noisy, but
no "image" of passband af signal visible.

As I do not believe in overloding of the Firebox soundcard (the same
conditions for both RIGs so if overloded so in both cases...), there
is something to explain.

Comments?

Thanks for your attention,
73!
Lexa, OK1DST
K3/10 #727

Alexandr Kobranov napsal(a):

> I can confirm cca 20dB lower level of 3rd harmonics on front panel
> phones output against rear panel line out. Main versus 3rd harmonics is
> 50dB resp. 7OdB on line-out resp. phones output here.
> Just tried with on-board sound card od my Dell workstation.
> (using Spectran SW and output level adjusted for the same peak out level
> on Spectran screen).
> Maybe later will try with Firebox sound card which has better parameters.
> Lexa, ok1dst
>
> Joe Subich, W4TV napsal(a):
>>
>>> There is still a bit of a problem on receive audio. This has been
>>> there for some time and exists in the form of harmonics. The 3rd
>>> harmonic is quite easy to see and repeatable. I used HRD to show
>>> this on the waterfall after a conversation with a friend. You can
>>> clearly see the harmonic at..
>>
>> You are overdriving your sound card or the line out transformer in the
>> K3.
>> I have measured the third harmonic using an audio spectrum analyzer
>> at both the line out and headphone jacks of my K3. Until the level
>> becomes excessive (> .7V RMS on the Line Out) the third harmonic is
>> more than 50 dB down (Line Out) and more than 70 dB down (headphones).
>> 73,
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
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Julian, G4ILO

Re: u want nice audio?

In reply to this post by Tom McCulloch

Tom McCulloch wrote

I have a "Sounds Sweet" speaker also...does a nice job although somewhat
large. I think I paid wither $99 or $110 a while back after it was reviewed
in QST. I see it is at $160 now..not worth that much $ though, IMHO.

Can't see the point in paying all that when the K3 has a perfectly good speaker. Anyway, Real Hams Use Headphones. If I want hi-fi I'll go downstairs and listen to music on the stereo. :)

Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222 KX3 #110
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html

Joe Subich, W4TV-3

RE: Re: K3 Audio

In reply to this post by Alexandr Kobranov

Do you have AFX "on" and are you looking at I/Q (left/right) from
the K3? The capture - including the small "spike" directly between
the "real" and "ghost" signals looks like you are trying to process
an unbalanced I/Q signal with the resulting improperly nulled image.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Alexandr Kobranov
> Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 5:53 PM
> Cc: 'elecraft Reflector'
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
>
>
> I just made two basic samples using K3 and TS-850 using Firebox
> external soundcard and Winrad SW.
>
> You can see screenshot from K3 line-out audio on
>
> http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/line_out_firebox_winrad.jpg
>
> This is K3 with 400Hz roofing filter on some stable carrier.
> LINE OUT setting on level 9.
>
> Then the same signal with the same af level (no change in Firebox
> input mixer settings) with TS-850
>
> http://www.ok1kei.org/K3_audio/ts850_af_firebox_winrad.jpg
>
> This is my TS-850 with 400Hz inrad filter and output from
> phones jack. There are also some "ghosts" in af spectrum,
> generaly more noisy, but
> no "image" of passband af signal visible.
>
> As I do not believe in overloding of the Firebox soundcard (the same
> conditions for both RIGs so if overloded so in both cases...), there
> is something to explain.
>
> Comments?
>
> Thanks for your attention,
> 73!
> Lexa, OK1DST
> K3/10 #727
>
>
>
>
> Alexandr Kobranov napsal(a):
> > I can confirm cca 20dB lower level of 3rd harmonics on front panel
> > phones output against rear panel line out. Main versus 3rd
> harmonics is
> > 50dB resp. 7OdB on line-out resp. phones output here.
> > Just tried with on-board sound card od my Dell workstation.
> > (using Spectran SW and output level adjusted for the same
> peak out level
> > on Spectran screen).
> > Maybe later will try with Firebox sound card which has
> better parameters.
> > Lexa, ok1dst
> >
> > Joe Subich, W4TV napsal(a):
> >>
> >>> There is still a bit of a problem on receive audio. This has been
> >>> there for some time and exists in the form of harmonics. The 3rd
> >>> harmonic is quite easy to see and repeatable. I used HRD to show
> >>> this on the waterfall after a conversation with a friend. You can
> >>> clearly see the harmonic at..
> >>
> >> You are overdriving your sound card or the line out transformer in
> >> the
> >> K3.
> >> I have measured the third harmonic using an audio spectrum analyzer
> >> at both the line out and headphone jacks of my K3. Until
> the level
> >> becomes excessive (> .7V RMS on the Line Out) the third
> harmonic is
> >> more than 50 dB down (Line Out) and more than 70 dB down
> (headphones).
> >> 73,
> >> ... Joe, W4TV
> >>

W8JI

Re: Re: K3 Audio

In reply to this post by Bob Cunnings NW8L

> It's a 600 ohm transformer, rated for 7dBm max (about 1.7
> Vrms across 600 ohms).
>
> Bob NW8L

But that doesn't mean it distorts or "saturates". It is
simply a rating.

My K3 for example on a good Agilent selective level meter
starts to distort at -5dB reference to 1 milliwatt into 600
ohms. That's a front panel setting of about 50 on the line
output level adjustment. At -5dB the second harmonic is
down 58 dB (absolute level of -63 dB mW ). At lower
settings it gets better.

While I have not looked inside the radio (and won't bother)
the distortion has all the characteristics of a mismatched
output device because it clips at about the same level
regardless of frequency. If it was that commonly spoke of
but elusive to find "core saturation" the point of
distortion should change with frequency. That's because the
flux level should change with frequency for a constant
voltage across the primary as the reactance changes with
frequency.

When I reduce line output setting to 25 (whatever that
means) the distortion is too close to noise floor to measure
accurately.

I would think -10dB below 1 mW, while a bit low from
commercial standards, is good enough for any properly
adjusted ham radio sound card or audio system. I'm pretty
fussy about things that matter, and I think the audio
distortion shortfall (at least from what measure) is
greatly over rated. It isn't out of line with anything else
I use, and is a lot better than some things I won't use.

This is a sample of one unit, but it looks good to me when
the level is kept about -10 dB 1 mW into 600 ohms. I can't
see a problem in a single tone harmonic distortion test.

73 Tom

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Bob Cunnings NW8L

Re: Re: K3 Audio

I wasn't asserting that this means it distorts or "saturates", but
merely reciting the rating given on the data sheet. I agree that it
should be perfectly adequate for interfacing with normal computer
sound card inputs as long as one didn't set the line out level too
high. It's fine here.

Bob NW8L

On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 7:30 PM, Tom W8JI <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> It's a 600 ohm transformer, rated for 7dBm max (about 1.7 Vrms across 600
>> ohms).
>>
>> Bob NW8L
>
> But that doesn't mean it distorts or "saturates". It is simply a rating.
>
> My K3 for example on a good Agilent selective level meter starts to distort
> at -5dB reference to 1 milliwatt into 600 ohms. That's a front panel setting
> of about 50 on the line output level adjustment. At -5dB the second
> harmonic is down 58 dB (absolute level of -63 dB mW ). At lower settings it
> gets better.
>
> While I have not looked inside the radio (and won't bother) the distortion
> has all the characteristics of a mismatched output device because it clips
> at about the same level regardless of frequency. If it was that commonly
> spoke of but elusive to find "core saturation" the point of distortion
> should change with frequency. That's because the flux level should change
> with frequency for a constant voltage across the primary as the reactance
> changes with frequency.
>
> When I reduce line output setting to 25 (whatever that means) the distortion
> is too close to noise floor to measure accurately.
>
> I would think -10dB below 1 mW, while a bit low from commercial standards,
> is good enough for any properly adjusted ham radio sound card or audio
> system. I'm pretty fussy about things that matter, and I think the audio
> distortion shortfall (at least from what measure) is greatly over rated. It
> isn't out of line with anything else I use, and is a lot better than some
> things I won't use.
>
> This is a sample of one unit, but it looks good to me when the level is kept
> about -10 dB 1 mW into 600 ohms. I can't see a problem in a single tone
> harmonic distortion test.
>
> 73 Tom
>

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