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Mike Harris-9

K3 Audio

G'day,

Had the chance to listen to the Rob Sherwood presentation at Dayton Drake
Forum 2008. Very interesting but he had a couple of rather unflattering
issues with the K3. Looks like the output at both ends of the chain, RF
and AF could be better, particularly the AF.

Looks like my subjective concerns about the hard audio were not misplaced.
I'm not golden eared but they still work OK.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

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Brett Howard

RE: K3 Audio

I'm not exactly sure what it is but with the K1 connected to the RX_OUT jack
then switching to RX_ANT and getting the antenna connected to the K1 I often
find that I prefer the sound of the sigs on the K1 to that of the K3. But
the K3 is a LOT easier to get on freq (I selected the 150Khz bandwidth on my
K1 so the knob is FAST :)) and I also have a lot more options available to
me on the K3 to play with the signal. But I do admit that there are often
times that after playing with the signal on the K3 for a bit I prefer the
way the K1 sounds out of the box. The cool thing about any sort of
shortcoming you find in the K3 is that you never know how long it will be
there. With any other radio you know it'll be there forever. With the K3
it's kinda like an adventure... HIHI.

I'm having fun... :)

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mike Harris
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 8:45 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 Audio

G'day,

Had the chance to listen to the Rob Sherwood presentation at Dayton Drake
Forum 2008. Very interesting but he had a couple of rather unflattering
issues with the K3. Looks like the output at both ends of the chain, RF
and AF could be better, particularly the AF.

Looks like my subjective concerns about the hard audio were not misplaced.
I'm not golden eared but they still work OK.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

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hf4me

Re: K3 Audio

Down to the single digit figits - hoping for mine to ship in "days".

Wouldn't something like this be affected by equalization?

73, Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brett Howard" <[hidden email]>
To: "'Mike Harris'" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:44 PM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 Audio

> I'm not exactly sure what it is but with the K1 connected to the RX_OUT
jack
> then switching to RX_ANT and getting the antenna connected to the K1 I
often
> find that I prefer the sound of the sigs on the K1 to that of the K3. But
> the K3 is a LOT easier to get on freq (I selected the 150Khz bandwidth on
my

> K1 so the knob is FAST :)) and I also have a lot more options available to
> me on the K3 to play with the signal. But I do admit that there are often
> times that after playing with the signal on the K3 for a bit I prefer the
> way the K1 sounds out of the box. The cool thing about any sort of
> shortcoming you find in the K3 is that you never know how long it will be
> there. With any other radio you know it'll be there forever. With the K3
> it's kinda like an adventure... HIHI.
>
> I'm having fun... :)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mike Harris
> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 8:45 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] K3 Audio
>
> G'day,
>
> Had the chance to listen to the Rob Sherwood presentation at Dayton Drake
> Forum 2008. Very interesting but he had a couple of rather unflattering
> issues with the K3. Looks like the output at both ends of the chain, RF
> and AF could be better, particularly the AF.
>
> Looks like my subjective concerns about the hard audio were not misplaced.
> I'm not golden eared but they still work OK.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike VP8NO
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Dave, G4AON

Re: K3 Audio

In reply to this post by Mike Harris-9

I use TX equalisation with my K3 to improve on my deep gravelly voice.
It sounds far better than my TS-480 with a similar microphone on both
transceivers (Kenwood MC-43S on the K3, stock mic on the '480), the
TS-480 has limited equalisation on TX but even with that it's well below
the quality of the K3 audio which sounds to my ears close to as good as
it's going to get from my voice. Unsolicited reports on the quality of
my K3 TX audio are commonplace and I've never received reports such as
those at any time in my 37 years of operating... I don't think there is
anything wrong with the K3 TX audio.

On receive the only "quality" receiver I have for comparison is a Drake
R4A and the K3 sounds better than that, and the R4A isn't at all
unpleasant to listen to... The Drake meets specification and has new
smoothing capacitors... The K3 receiver has an open sound which can
sound harsh when combined with a lot of background hash in the form of
white noise from a typical domestic situation where you are surrounded
by houses with computers, switched mode PSUs, etc. Under clean band
conditions that openness sounds great when listening to SSB with the
same DSP bandwidth as the roofing filter (2.8 KHz in my case). I use no
equalisation on receive.

Bottom line to me is the K3's audio is fine. And no, I'm not on
commission from Elecraft!

73 Dave, G4AON
K3/100 #80

"Wouldn't something like this be affected by equalization?"
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Brett Howard

RE: K3 Audio

In reply to this post by hf4me

You know I was thinking that the K1 would have a much narrower AF bandwidth
and if I remember right I think I remember seeing some caps in the feedback
loop that would cause some stuff like that. But then in the K3 there are
all the IF filters and DSP IF filters that should be doing that same thing.
I mean I could mess with the RX EQ and narrow it all down around sidetone
pitch but I don't find it to make a lot of difference because as I
understand it a lot of those frequencies shouldn't be there anyway if you
have the filter set pretty narrow. I usually run around 250Hz wide on both
rigs when in QSO. And the K3 does have the 250Hz 8-pole filter installed.

I also don't really mess with the RX EQ much other than cutting out some of
the high stuff that kinda grates on my ears. I find that not to be annoying
when ever I listen to voice stuff and that makes for an acceptable all
around RX EQ setting. I think that if there are ever per mode RX EQ
settings I'll play with that feature more.

Congrats on your K3 shipping soon!

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Miller
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:41 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio

Down to the single digit figits - hoping for mine to ship in "days".

Wouldn't something like this be affected by equalization?

73, Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brett Howard" <[hidden email]>
To: "'Mike Harris'" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:44 PM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 Audio

> I'm not exactly sure what it is but with the K1 connected to the RX_OUT
jack
> then switching to RX_ANT and getting the antenna connected to the K1 I
often
> find that I prefer the sound of the sigs on the K1 to that of the K3. But
> the K3 is a LOT easier to get on freq (I selected the 150Khz bandwidth on
my

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Brett Howard

RE: K3 Audio

I forgot to mention one thing that I found is that running the Dual PB
filter actually helps make the K3 sound a lot better in my opinion. The
audio on the K3 seems to get kinda harsh at the narrower bandwidths as all
the static is all centered into a relatively narrow band of frequencies.
But when you turn on the DUAL PB filter things get a bit more toward white
noise and a lot less shrill to listen to. I also find that the AFX set to
around 3 can help a bit on some sigs too (but only when I'm using my
headphones)... I suppose perhaps its time that I look for a good set of
passive stereo speakers.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brett Howard [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 2:48 PM
To: 'Jim Miller'; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 Audio

You know I was thinking that the K1 would have a much narrower AF bandwidth
and if I remember right I think I remember seeing some caps in the feedback
loop that would cause some stuff like that. But then in the K3 there are
all the IF filters and DSP IF filters that should be doing that same thing.
I mean I could mess with the RX EQ and narrow it all down around sidetone
pitch but I don't find it to make a lot of difference because as I
understand it a lot of those frequencies shouldn't be there anyway if you
have the filter set pretty narrow. I usually run around 250Hz wide on both
rigs when in QSO. And the K3 does have the 250Hz 8-pole filter installed.

I also don't really mess with the RX EQ much other than cutting out some of
the high stuff that kinda grates on my ears. I find that not to be annoying
when ever I listen to voice stuff and that makes for an acceptable all
around RX EQ setting. I think that if there are ever per mode RX EQ
settings I'll play with that feature more.

Congrats on your K3 shipping soon!

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Miller
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:41 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Audio

Down to the single digit figits - hoping for mine to ship in "days".

Wouldn't something like this be affected by equalization?

73, Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brett Howard" <[hidden email]>
To: "'Mike Harris'" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:44 PM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 Audio

> I'm not exactly sure what it is but with the K1 connected to the RX_OUT
jack
> then switching to RX_ANT and getting the antenna connected to the K1 I
often
> find that I prefer the sound of the sigs on the K1 to that of the K3. But
> the K3 is a LOT easier to get on freq (I selected the 150Khz bandwidth on
my

Mike Harris-9

Re: Re: K3 Audio

In reply to this post by Dave, G4AON

Hi Dave,

In the presentation the TX element was not necessarily TX audio quality,
rather the less than stellar intermod figure, however, I believe this has
been accepted as typical of a low voltage 100W output PA.

The RX audio issue, which is probably more important, comes up in the last
eight minutes and relates to high levels of distortion in the audio amp,
up to and beyond an 11th harmonic at 7kHz. on a CW signal and a 9th order
product on two tones only -40dB down.

Maybe this explains why, to my ear, even after cropping the high end of
passband in DSP at 2400Hz on SSB it still sounds harsh. The junk is
apparently being generated post DSP by the af amp. One can only speculate
on the consequences of a CW pile-up.

The good news is, according to Rob Sherwood, that it is fixable once the
cause has been identified. The good news is that the good folks at
elecraft are aware of the problem and are presumably on the case. The bad
news is it's probably hardware not code.

Didn't someone also mention that line output above a certain figure was
also distorted. I think the speculation there pointed to the af
transformers.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave G4AON" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 4:55 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

|I use TX equalisation with my K3 to improve on my deep gravelly voice.
| It sounds far better than my TS-480 with a similar microphone on both
| transceivers (Kenwood MC-43S on the K3, stock mic on the '480), the
| TS-480 has limited equalisation on TX but even with that it's well below
| the quality of the K3 audio which sounds to my ears close to as good as
| it's going to get from my voice. Unsolicited reports on the quality of
| my K3 TX audio are commonplace and I've never received reports such as
| those at any time in my 37 years of operating... I don't think there is
| anything wrong with the K3 TX audio.
|
| On receive the only "quality" receiver I have for comparison is a Drake
| R4A and the K3 sounds better than that, and the R4A isn't at all
| unpleasant to listen to... The Drake meets specification and has new
| smoothing capacitors... The K3 receiver has an open sound which can
| sound harsh when combined with a lot of background hash in the form of
| white noise from a typical domestic situation where you are surrounded
| by houses with computers, switched mode PSUs, etc. Under clean band
| conditions that openness sounds great when listening to SSB with the
| same DSP bandwidth as the roofing filter (2.8 KHz in my case). I use no
| equalisation on receive.
|
| Bottom line to me is the K3's audio is fine. And no, I'm not on
| commission from Elecraft!
|
| 73 Dave, G4AON
| K3/100 #80
|
| "Wouldn't something like this be affected by equalization?"

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Geoffrey Downs-2

Re: Re: K3 Audio

In reply to this post by Dave, G4AON

Would be interesting to know the detail of what Rob Sherwood said, but I
agree with you, Dave. The tx and rx audio on my K3 sounds cleaner, brighter
and clearer to me than my now obsolescent FT1000MP Field even before
applying any equalisation. I use either a headset or a couple of small
external computer speakers.

73 to all

Geoff
G3UCK

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave G4AON" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 9:55 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio

> Bottom line to me is the K3's audio is fine. And no, I'm not on commission
> from Elecraft!
>
> 73 Dave, G4AON
> K3/100 #80

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Bob Cunnings NW8L

Re: Re: K3 Audio

If you listen to Sherwood's presentation, you'd hear him state that
the distortion problem he discusses occurs only when driving a low
impedance (speaker) load. If driving a high Z load like, say, powered
speakers, or using headphones, there is no problem.

So that might explain your observations.

Bob NW8L

On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Geoffrey Downs
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Would be interesting to know the detail of what Rob Sherwood said, but I
> agree with you, Dave. The tx and rx audio on my K3 sounds cleaner, brighter
> and clearer to me than my now obsolescent FT1000MP Field even before
> applying any equalisation. I use either a headset or a couple of small
> external computer speakers.
>
> 73 to all
>
> Geoff
> G3UCK
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4AON" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 9:55 PM
> Subject: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
>
>
>
>> Bottom line to me is the K3's audio is fine. And no, I'm not on commission
>> from Elecraft!
>>
>> 73 Dave, G4AON
>> K3/100 #80
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

Jerry Flanders

Re: Re: K3 Audio

In reply to this post by Geoffrey Downs-2

Sherwood's talk is at http://www.sherweng.com/
click on the one at top left (

Roofing Filters, Transmitted BW & Receiver Performnce,

Dayton Drake Forum 2008, Slide Show with Audio). It is a wmv movie of
his talk.

Jerry W4UK

At 06:29 PM 8/5/2008, Geoffrey Downs wrote:

>Would be interesting to know the detail of what Rob Sherwood said,
>but I agree with you, Dave. The tx and rx audio on my K3 sounds
>cleaner, brighter and clearer to me than my now obsolescent FT1000MP
>Field even before applying any equalisation. I use either a headset
>or a couple of small external computer speakers.
>
>73 to all
>
>Geoff
>G3UCK

Ian Maude

Re: Re: K3 Audio

In reply to this post by Bob Cunnings NW8L

Bob Cunnings wrote:
> If you listen to Sherwood's presentation, you'd hear him state that
> the distortion problem he discusses occurs only when driving a low
> impedance (speaker) load. If driving a high Z load like, say, powered
> speakers, or using headphones, there is no problem.
>
There is still a bit of a problem on receive audio. This has been there
for some time and exists in the form of harmonics. The 3rd harmonic is
quite easy to see and repeatable. I used HRD to show this on the
waterfall after a conversation with a friend.
You can clearly see the harmonic at..

http://www.gb7mbc.net/docs/K3Audiotrace.doc

73 Ian

> So that might explain your observations.
>
> Bob NW8L
>
> On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Geoffrey Downs
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Would be interesting to know the detail of what Rob Sherwood said, but I
>> agree with you, Dave. The tx and rx audio on my K3 sounds cleaner, brighter
>> and clearer to me than my now obsolescent FT1000MP Field even before
>> applying any equalisation. I use either a headset or a couple of small
>> external computer speakers.
>>
>> 73 to all
>>
>> Geoff
>> G3UCK
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4AON" <[hidden email]>
>> To: <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 9:55 PM
>> Subject: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Bottom line to me is the K3's audio is fine. And no, I'm not on commission
>>> from Elecraft!
>>>
>>> 73 Dave, G4AON
>>> K3/100 #80
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Post to: [hidden email]
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>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>

--

Ian J Maude, G0VGS
SysOp GB7MBC DX Cluster
Member RSGB, GQRP
K2 #4044 |K3 #455

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Klaus Koppendorfer

AW: Re: K3 Audio

did you use the line out ?? The Line Output
transformers of the K3, saturate at normal program levels
try Headphone out on Frontplate and you will see no Harmonic´s

73
OE6KYG
KX1 244
K2 1331
K3 115

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: [hidden email] [mailto:elecraft-
> [hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Ian Maude
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 06. August 2008 09:27
> An: elecraft Reflector
> Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
>
> Bob Cunnings wrote:
> > If you listen to Sherwood's presentation, you'd hear him state that
> > the distortion problem he discusses occurs only when driving a low
> > impedance (speaker) load. If driving a high Z load like, say, powered
> > speakers, or using headphones, there is no problem.
> >
> There is still a bit of a problem on receive audio. This has been there
> for some time and exists in the form of harmonics. The 3rd harmonic is
> quite easy to see and repeatable. I used HRD to show this on the
> waterfall after a conversation with a friend.
> You can clearly see the harmonic at..
>
> http://www.gb7mbc.net/docs/K3Audiotrace.doc
>
> 73 Ian
> > So that might explain your observations.
> >
> > Bob NW8L
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Geoffrey Downs
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Would be interesting to know the detail of what Rob Sherwood said, but
> I
> >> agree with you, Dave. The tx and rx audio on my K3 sounds cleaner,
> brighter
> >> and clearer to me than my now obsolescent FT1000MP Field even before
> >> applying any equalisation. I use either a headset or a couple of small
> >> external computer speakers.
> >>
> >> 73 to all
> >>
> >> Geoff
> >> G3UCK
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4AON"
> <[hidden email]>
> >> To: <[hidden email]>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 9:55 PM
> >> Subject: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Bottom line to me is the K3's audio is fine. And no, I'm not on
> commission
> >>> from Elecraft!
> >>>
> >>> 73 Dave, G4AON
> >>> K3/100 #80
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Post to: [hidden email]
> >> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> >> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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> >> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
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> > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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> >
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Ian J Maude, G0VGS
> SysOp GB7MBC DX Cluster
> Member RSGB, GQRP
> K2 #4044 |K3 #455
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Stewart Baker

Re: AW: Re: K3 Audio

Is that really so ?

If that's the case, then the design is poor..

73
Stewart G3RXQ
On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 09:32:55 +0200, Koppendorfer Klaus wrote:

> did you use the line out ?? The Line Output
> transformers of the K3, saturate at normal program levels
> try Headphone out on Frontplate and you will see no Harmonic´s
>
> 73
> OE6KYG
> KX1 244
> K2 1331
> K3 115
>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: [hidden email] [mailto:elecraft-
>> [hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Ian Maude
>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 06. August 2008 09:27
>> An: elecraft Reflector
>> Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
>>
>> Bob Cunnings wrote:
>>> If you listen to Sherwood's presentation, you'd hear him state

that
>>> the distortion problem he discusses occurs only when driving a
low
>>> impedance (speaker) load. If driving a high Z load like, say,
powered
>>> speakers, or using headphones, there is no problem.
>>>
>> There is still a bit of a problem on receive audio. This has
been there
>> for some time and exists in the form of harmonics. The 3rd
harmonic is
>> quite easy to see and repeatable. I used HRD to show this on
the

>> waterfall after a conversation with a friend.
>> You can clearly see the harmonic at..
>>
>> http://www.gb7mbc.net/docs/K3Audiotrace.doc
>>
>> 73 Ian
>>> So that might explain your observations.
>>>
>>> Bob NW8L
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Geoffrey Downs
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Would be interesting to know the detail of what Rob Sherwood

said, but
>> I
>>>> agree with you, Dave. The tx and rx audio on my K3 sounds
cleaner,
>> brighter
>>>> and clearer to me than my now obsolescent FT1000MP Field even
before
>>>> applying any equalisation. I use either a headset or a couple
of small

>>>> external computer speakers.
>>>>
>>>> 73 to all
>>>>
>>>> Geoff
>>>> G3UCK
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4AON"
>> <[hidden email]>
>>>> To: <[hidden email]>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 9:55 PM
>>>> Subject: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Bottom line to me is the K3's audio is fine. And no, I'm not

>> commission
>>>>> from Elecraft!
>>>>>
>>>>> 73 Dave, G4AON
>>>>> K3/100 #80
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Post to: [hidden email]
>>>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Post to: [hidden email]
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>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Ian J Maude, G0VGS
>> SysOp GB7MBC DX Cluster
>> Member RSGB, GQRP
>> K2 #4044 |K3 #455
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
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> _______________________________________________
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Charly

u want nice audio?

U want to hear nice ham audio?

Listen to an SX-101 with the 12 inch Hallicrafters matching spkr.

Listen to a Collins 75A-4 with its matching speaker.

Otherwise, 3 inch tin is tin and the laws of physics still apply.

73

Charles Harpole

[hidden email]

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 09:28:21 +0100
> Subject: Re: AW: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
> CC:
>
> Is that really so ?
>
> If that's the case, then the design is poor..
>
> 73
> Stewart G3RXQ
> On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 09:32:55 +0200, Koppendorfer Klaus wrote:
>> did you use the line out ?? The Line Output
>> transformers of the K3, saturate at normal program levels
>> try Headphone out on Frontplate and you will see no Harmonic´s
>>
>> 73
>> OE6KYG
>> KX1 244
>> K2 1331
>> K3 115
>>
>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>> Von: [hidden email] [mailto:elecraft-
>>> [hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Ian Maude
>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 06. August 2008 09:27
>>> An: elecraft Reflector
>>> Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
>>>
>>> Bob Cunnings wrote:
>>>> If you listen to Sherwood's presentation, you'd hear him state
> that
>>>> the distortion problem he discusses occurs only when driving a
> low
>>>> impedance (speaker) load. If driving a high Z load like, say,
> powered
>>>> speakers, or using headphones, there is no problem.
>>>>
>>> There is still a bit of a problem on receive audio. This has
> been there
>>> for some time and exists in the form of harmonics. The 3rd
> harmonic is
>>> quite easy to see and repeatable. I used HRD to show this on
> the
>>> waterfall after a conversation with a friend.
>>> You can clearly see the harmonic at..
>>>
>>> http://www.gb7mbc.net/docs/K3Audiotrace.doc
>>>
>>> 73 Ian
>>>> So that might explain your observations.
>>>>
>>>> Bob NW8L
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Geoffrey Downs
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Would be interesting to know the detail of what Rob Sherwood
> said, but
>>> I
>>>>> agree with you, Dave. The tx and rx audio on my K3 sounds
> cleaner,
>>> brighter
>>>>> and clearer to me than my now obsolescent FT1000MP Field even
> before
>>>>> applying any equalisation. I use either a headset or a couple
> of small
>>>>> external computer speakers.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73 to all
>>>>>
>>>>> Geoff
>>>>> G3UCK
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4AON"
>>>
>>>>> To:
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 9:55 PM
>>>>> Subject: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bottom line to me is the K3's audio is fine. And no, I'm not
> on
>>> commission
>>>>>> from Elecraft!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 73 Dave, G4AON
>>>>>> K3/100 #80
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>> Post to: [hidden email]
>>>>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>>>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>>>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Post to: [hidden email]
>>>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Ian J Maude, G0VGS
>>> SysOp GB7MBC DX Cluster
>>> Member RSGB, GQRP
>>> K2 #4044 |K3 #455
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Post to: [hidden email]
>>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Post to: [hidden email]
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Post to: [hidden email]
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Ian Maude

Re: u want nice audio?

Charles Harpole wrote:
> U want to hear nice ham audio?
>
> Listen to an SX-101 with the 12 inch Hallicrafters matching spkr.
>
> Listen to a Collins 75A-4 with its matching speaker.
>
> Otherwise, 3 inch tin is tin and the laws of physics still apply.
>
There is nothing wrong with the K3 audio on the whole. It is one of the
best receive audio's I have listened to. Audio is always subjective. I
prefer a slightly higher audio as I find it easier to hear at those
frequencies. To say one thing is better than the other is at best
really only going to be *your* opinion. Others have said they do not
like the audio at all while I find it great at the default settings. My
post was purely to show that there are some unwanted artifacts in the
receive audio chain. As for transformers colouring the audio through
saturation, that simply should not be happening, at least at these kind
of levels!

73 Ian

> 73
>
> Charles Harpole
>
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 09:28:21 +0100
>> Subject: Re: AW: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
>> CC:
>>
>> Is that really so ?
>>
>> If that's the case, then the design is poor..
>>
>> 73
>> Stewart G3RXQ
>> On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 09:32:55 +0200, Koppendorfer Klaus wrote:
>>
>>> did you use the line out ?? The Line Output
>>> transformers of the K3, saturate at normal program levels
>>> try Headphone out on Frontplate and you will see no Harmonic´s
>>>
>>> 73
>>> OE6KYG
>>> KX1 244
>>> K2 1331
>>> K3 115
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>> Von: [hidden email] [mailto:elecraft-
>>>> [hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Ian Maude
>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 06. August 2008 09:27
>>>> An: elecraft Reflector
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
>>>>
>>>> Bob Cunnings wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If you listen to Sherwood's presentation, you'd hear him state
>>>>>
>> that
>>
>>>>> the distortion problem he discusses occurs only when driving a
>>>>>
>> low
>>
>>>>> impedance (speaker) load. If driving a high Z load like, say,
>>>>>
>> powered
>>
>>>>> speakers, or using headphones, there is no problem.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> There is still a bit of a problem on receive audio. This has
>>>>
>> been there
>>
>>>> for some time and exists in the form of harmonics. The 3rd
>>>>
>> harmonic is
>>
>>>> quite easy to see and repeatable. I used HRD to show this on
>>>>
>> the
>>
>>>> waterfall after a conversation with a friend.
>>>> You can clearly see the harmonic at..
>>>>
>>>> http://www.gb7mbc.net/docs/K3Audiotrace.doc
>>>>
>>>> 73 Ian
>>>>
>>>>> So that might explain your observations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob NW8L
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Geoffrey Downs
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Would be interesting to know the detail of what Rob Sherwood
>>>>>>
>> said, but
>>
>>>> I
>>>>
>>>>>> agree with you, Dave. The tx and rx audio on my K3 sounds
>>>>>>
>> cleaner,
>>
>>>> brighter
>>>>
>>>>>> and clearer to me than my now obsolescent FT1000MP Field even
>>>>>>
>> before
>>
>>>>>> applying any equalisation. I use either a headset or a couple
>>>>>>
>> of small
>>
>>>>>> external computer speakers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 73 to all
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Geoff
>>>>>> G3UCK
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4AON"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To:
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 9:55 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [Elecraft] Re: K3 Audio
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bottom line to me is the K3's audio is fine. And no, I'm not
>>>>>>>
>> on
>>
>>>> commission
>>>>
>>>>>>> from Elecraft!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 73 Dave, G4AON
>>>>>>> K3/100 #80
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>>> Post to: [hidden email]
>>>>>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>>>>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>>>>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>> Post to: [hidden email]
>>>>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>>>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>>
>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>>>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Ian J Maude, G0VGS
>>>> SysOp GB7MBC DX Cluster
>>>> Member RSGB, GQRP
>>>> K2 #4044 |K3 #455
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Post to: [hidden email]
>>>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Post to: [hidden email]
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>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
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>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>
>
>

David Cutter

Re: AW: Re: K3 Audio

In reply to this post by Mike Harris-9

They are big transformers, if they are saturating there must be dc present. Is there dc isolation cap in the circuit?
David
G3UNA

> >
> did you use the line out ?? The Line Output
> transformers of the K3, saturate at normal program levels
> try Headphone out on Frontplate and you will see no Harmonic´s
>
> 73
> OE6KYG
> KX1 244
> K2 1331
> K3 115
>

-----------------------------------------
Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email
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W8JI

Re: AW: Re: K3 Audio

They are big transformers, if they are saturating there must be dc present.
Is there dc isolation cap in the circuit?
David
G3UNA>>

Saturating is a popular phrase that means "there is some problem I never
really looked at".

:-)

Sad but true.

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W7GJ, Lance

Re: u want nice audio?

In reply to this post by Charly

Charles Harpole wrote:

> U want to hear nice ham audio?
>
> Listen to an SX-101 with the 12 inch Hallicrafters matching spkr.
>
> Listen to a Collins 75A-4 with its matching speaker.
>
> Otherwise, 3 inch tin is tin and the laws of physics still apply.
>
> 73
>
> Charles Harpole
>
> [hidden email]
>

Speaking of which, I have been wondering if/when there will be a matching good
external speaker available for the K3. I have always enjoyed my Kenwood SP-230,
which has a headphone jack as well as a switch between two receivers. Has anybody
heard anything? I may have to retain this when I replace the TS830S with my new K3.
TNX and 73, Lance

--
Lance Collister, W7GJ (ex: WN3GPL, WA3GPL, WA1JXN, WA1JXN/C6A, ZF2OC/ZF8)
P.O. Box 73
Frenchtown, MT 59834 USA
QTH: DN27UB
TEL: (406) 626-5728
URL: http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj
2m DXCC #11/6m DXCC #815

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Joe Subich, W4TV-3

RE: Re: K3 Audio

In reply to this post by Stewart Baker

> On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 09:32:55 +0200, Koppendorfer Klaus wrote:
> > did you use the line out ?? The Line Output
> > transformers of the K3, saturate at normal program levels
> > try Headphone out on Frontplate and you will see no Harmonic´s

Having heard this several times I did some research:

Yes, it is possible to force the "Line" output into distortion
but you literally have to force the K3 to distort. If AGC is
turned on, I do not see distortion/saturation at any level of
input signal or any level of "Line Out." If I turn off the AGC
and crank the "Line Out" setting to 100, audio will be distorted
with the 50 uV signal from an XG-2.

Adjusting the Line Out level while watching the audio output
with a scope and audio spectrum analyzer shows that there is
no issue as long as the audio level remains below 1V peak (.7V
RMS). With an S9 signal (50 uV, preamp off), the Line Out
voltage reaches .7V RMS with CONFIG:Line Out set to about 12.

All of this is consistent with the K3 Manual which says:

| LIN OUT settings above 10 are usually not necessary,
| and can in some cases cause overloading of either the
| K3s output transformers or the PC soundcard inputs
| (typically on noise peaks). Either could degrade the
| performance of digital demodulation software.

For the benefit of W8JI ... saturation is a good description of
the behavior. When adjusting the Line Out level above 1V peak,
any single tone in the audio spectrum appears to be clipped
at the 1V level. Although this could be due to clipping in the
audio amplifier, given the manual warning, transformer saturation
appears to be the more likely explanation.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

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Joe Subich, W4TV-3

RE: Re: K3 Audio

In reply to this post by Ian Maude

> There is still a bit of a problem on receive audio. This has
> been there for some time and exists in the form of harmonics.
> The 3rd harmonic is quite easy to see and repeatable. I
> used HRD to show this on the waterfall after a conversation
> with a friend. You can clearly see the harmonic at..

You are overdriving your sound card or the line out transformer
in the K3.

I have measured the third harmonic using an audio spectrum analyzer
at both the line out and headphone jacks of my K3. Until the level
becomes excessive (> .7V RMS on the Line Out) the third harmonic is
more than 50 dB down (Line Out) and more than 70 dB down (headphones).

73,

... Joe, W4TV

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123