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K3 Break in with an amp question

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KD8NNU

K3 Break in with an amp question

I am attempting to slowly learn to work with CW but at first it is with
a computer program but I am not sure if that is relevant.

I understand the reason for break in as it allows for RX listening
between your TX in case someone it trying to contact your.

The issue is that when using VOX and with semi or full breakin when
using my amp the relays in the amp are clicking and clacking like crazy
which to me seems very abusive to the amp. My solution has been to go
to semi break in and then set a long delay time so the amp and K3 stay
keyed.

The amp is an SGC powercube and I do have it wired to the K3 so it gets
a PTT signal.

Am I doing the right thing with the delay or are there other ways to
stop the amp from going nuts or is this just the nature of the beast.

~73
Don
KD8NNU

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 Break in with an amp question

Don,

You should have the amp's keyin (or PTT) keyed with the K3 KEYOUT
signal. If you have it that way, you are "doing it right"

Not all amps are capable of QSK because they use big, clunky, open frame
relays that take a considerable amount of time to pull in and the
contacts stop bouncing. It sounds like you have one of those. Your
choice of semi-breakin helps on the trailing edge of your keying, but
you really need help on the leading edge of keying to keep your amp's
relay from "hot switching" - that is a condition where RF is present at
the relay contacts before the relay contacts have positively closed.

You can upgrade the amp's relays to a use faster relays or add a QSK kit
to your amplifier, or you can set the K3 for semi-breakin (as you have
done), but consider that on the leading edge of your keying, RF may be
presented to the amplifier before the relay contacts have stopped
bouncing - the K3 allows you delay the onset of RF to compensate for
that condition. See the TX DLY menu setting on page 61 of the manual.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/17/2012 7:49 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> I am attempting to slowly learn to work with CW but at first it is with
> a computer program but I am not sure if that is relevant.
>
> I understand the reason for break in as it allows for RX listening
> between your TX in case someone it trying to contact your.
>
> The issue is that when using VOX and with semi or full breakin when
> using my amp the relays in the amp are clicking and clacking like crazy
> which to me seems very abusive to the amp. My solution has been to go
> to semi break in and then set a long delay time so the amp and K3 stay
> keyed.
>
> The amp is an SGC powercube and I do have it wired to the K3 so it gets
> a PTT signal.
>
> Am I doing the right thing with the delay or are there other ways to
> stop the amp from going nuts or is this just the nature of the beast.
>
>
> ~73
> Don
> KD8NNU
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Re: K3 Break in with an amp question

In reply to this post by KD8NNU

My advice is to try it with the K3 only and put the Amp aside for the moment. I reviewed the SGC web site to find out about the amp which I have never heard of. It sure looks like it may have been manufactured for the CB market, but of course, I am not sure by only looking at the SGC advertising. They make no mention of ham radio or CB, but the do talk a lot about the Base Station, a term that no experienced ham would use. After you get things working with the K3 you may want to continue with the SGC amp, but don't be surprised if it does not meet minimum ham radio standards and don't expect it to be an inexpensive substitute for a KPA-500. I am not either a full or part-time employee of Elecraft, just an old ham who likes to see new hams succeed and a satisfied K3 owner.

Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart

________________________________
From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 6:49 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 Break in with an amp question

I am attempting to slowly learn to work with CW but at first it is with
a computer program but I am not sure if that is relevant.

I understand the reason for break in as it allows for RX listening
between your TX in case someone it trying to contact your.

The issue is that when using VOX and with semi or full breakin when
using my amp the relays in the amp are clicking and clacking like crazy
which to me seems very abusive to the amp. My solution has been to go
to semi break in and then set a long delay time so the amp and K3 stay
keyed.

The amp is an SGC powercube and I do have it wired to the K3 so it gets
a PTT signal.

Am I doing the right thing with the delay or are there other ways to
stop the amp from going nuts or is this just the nature of the beast.

~73
Don
KD8NNU

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Augie "Gus" Hansen

Re: K3 Break in with an amp question

On 3/17/2012 9:20 AM, WILLIS COOKE wrote:
> My advice is to try it with the K3 only and put the Amp aside for the moment. I reviewed the SGC web site to find out about the amp which I have never heard of. It sure looks like it may have been manufactured for the CB market, but of course, I am not sure by only looking at the SGC advertising. They make no mention of ham radio or CB, but the do talk a lot about the Base Station, a term that no experienced ham would use.

The amp that Don mentioned is the SGC SmartPowerCube, which is a
very good ham radio power amp. I used one for almost a decade in my
shack (base station, if you will) and occasionally portable, though
never mobile. The amp is solidly constructed, auto senses the
frequency and does band/filter selection on the fly, and protects
itself from abuse extremely well. The SGC product line was designed
for the hostile marine environment. The amp is definitely not a CB
brick.

The SG-500 works very well on SSB as well as digital modes, but it
was not designed for full break-in CW. I had toyed with the idea of
modifying the keying circuit for QSK by using fast vacuum relay
switching, but dropped that plan when Elecraft announced the KPA500.
(I sold the SG-500 to a friend who has little interest in CW and a
need for more power in his mobile station, and it has served him
well for several years.)

73,
Gus Hansen
KB0YH

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David Bunte

Re: K3 Break in with an amp question

In reply to this post by KD8NNU

Don - I found it very helpful to have a local look at my keying waveform on his IC7800 as I adjusted the PTT timing, to make sure the amp was not switching when RF was present.
-Dave-
K9FN

Sent from my Samsung smartphone on AT&T

Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Don,
>
>You should have the amp's keyin (or PTT) keyed with the K3 KEYOUT
>signal. If you have it that way, you are "doing it right"
>
>Not all amps are capable of QSK because they use big, clunky, open frame
>relays that take a considerable amount of time to pull in and the
>contacts stop bouncing. It sounds like you have one of those. Your
>choice of semi-breakin helps on the trailing edge of your keying, but
>you really need help on the leading edge of keying to keep your amp's
>relay from "hot switching" - that is a condition where RF is present at
>the relay contacts before the relay contacts have positively closed.
>
>You can upgrade the amp's relays to a use faster relays or add a QSK kit
>to your amplifier, or you can set the K3 for semi-breakin (as you have
>done), but consider that on the leading edge of your keying, RF may be
>presented to the amplifier before the relay contacts have stopped
>bouncing - the K3 allows you delay the onset of RF to compensate for
>that condition. See the TX DLY menu setting on page 61 of the manual.
>
>73,
>Don W3FPR
>
>On 3/17/2012 7:49 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> I am attempting to slowly learn to work with CW but at first it is with
>> a computer program but I am not sure if that is relevant.
>>
>> I understand the reason for break in as it allows for RX listening
>> between your TX in case someone it trying to contact your.
>>
>> The issue is that when using VOX and with semi or full breakin when
>> using my amp the relays in the amp are clicking and clacking like crazy
>> which to me seems very abusive to the amp. My solution has been to go
>> to semi break in and then set a long delay time so the amp and K3 stay
>> keyed.
>>
>> The amp is an SGC powercube and I do have it wired to the K3 so it gets
>> a PTT signal.
>>
>> Am I doing the right thing with the delay or are there other ways to
>> stop the amp from going nuts or is this just the nature of the beast.
>>
>>
>> ~73
>> Don
>> KD8NNU
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Donehrlich@q.com

Re: K3 Break in with an amp question

In reply to this post by KD8NNU

The powercube is definitely a ham amplifier. I know of at least one
owner who is very happy with the one he has but, then, he only operates SSB.

Most amps that use relay T/R switching (and that is *most* amps) do the
clickety-clack thing. I know of failed relays that could not take the
abuse. Your solution of using semi-breakin with an appropriate delay is
the only way to avoid this problem. With my new KPA500 I no longer have
that problem but, with my previous Tokyo HyPower amp, I used a homebrew
PIN Diode switching system to do all of my T/R antenna switching with
all solid state circuitry but that is not a trivial exercise.

Don K7FJ

On 3/17/2012 4:49 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Bob Nielsen-2

Re: K3 Break in with an amp question

Ameritron sells a PIN diode switch assembly (http://www.ameritron.com/Product.php?productid=QSK-5) which can be used for this purpose.

Bob N7XY

On Mar 17, 2012, at 9:18 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> The powercube is definitely a ham amplifier. I know of at least one
> owner who is very happy with the one he has but, then, he only operates SSB.
>
> Most amps that use relay T/R switching (and that is *most* amps) do the
> clickety-clack thing. I know of failed relays that could not take the
> abuse. Your solution of using semi-breakin with an appropriate delay is
> the only way to avoid this problem. With my new KPA500 I no longer have
> that problem but, with my previous Tokyo HyPower amp, I used a homebrew
> PIN Diode switching system to do all of my T/R antenna switching with
> all solid state circuitry but that is not a trivial exercise.
>
> Don K7FJ
>
>
>
>
> On 3/17/2012 4:49 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> I am attempting to slowly learn to work with CW but at first it is with
>> a computer program but I am not sure if that is relevant.
>>
>> I understand the reason for break in as it allows for RX listening
>> between your TX in case someone it trying to contact your.
>>
>> The issue is that when using VOX and with semi or full breakin when
>> using my amp the relays in the amp are clicking and clacking like crazy
>> which to me seems very abusive to the amp. My solution has been to go
>> to semi break in and then set a long delay time so the amp and K3 stay
>> keyed.
>>
>> The amp is an SGC powercube and I do have it wired to the K3 so it gets
>> a PTT signal.
>>
>> Am I doing the right thing with the delay or are there other ways to
>> stop the amp from going nuts or is this just the nature of the beast.
>>
>>
>> ~73
>> Don
>> KD8NNU
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: K3 Break in with an amp question

I still maintain that someone who is trying to learn CW and still needs a computer to send and possibly to receive should stay with a basic transceiver for a while until he learns to operate CW without a computer. He should not purchase a pin diode assembly that is 6" X 4" x 9 1/2" to work with his "base station" amplifier which is 11" x 12" x 6" and needs an 90 amp 12 volt power supply for CW until he learns to operate CW. The K3, which I presume he has the 100 watt model since the low power conversion will not furnish the 50 to 90 watts specified for input to the SG-500. 100 watts is enough power for a lot of nice CW contacts, even 10 watts will do the trick with a reasonably good antenna. Most manufacturers find it unwise to try to run 500 watts PEP with transistorized amplifiers supplied with 12 or 14 volts and design for 40 or more volts. The web site for SGC does not show any particular expertise or make any claims for purity of signal.
Maybe they are great, but I am not convinced.

That being said, I fully support CW operation and love it myself. I think everyone who is the least bit inclined to do so learn to operate CW. I like to operate QSK very much with my K3 and do often operate with 500 watts QSK, but most of the time I don't need that much power. I do indeed wish Don the very best experience in learning CW, but I think that trying to tame the SG-500 at the same time will make it more difficult than it needs to be.

Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart

________________________________
From: Bob Nielsen <[hidden email]>
To: Elecraft List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Break in with an amp question

Ameritron sells a PIN diode switch assembly (http://www.ameritron.com/Product.php?productid=QSK-5) which can be used for this purpose.

Bob N7XY

On Mar 17, 2012, at 9:18 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

_____
N7XY DX Cluster Node - telnet to n7xy.net, port 7300

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N5GE

Re: K3 Break in with an amp question

The QST review linked from the web site doesn't look very good and say's the amp
can be USER MODIFIED to operate at up to 30MHz ;o)

73,
Tom
Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
ARRL Lifetime Member
QCWA Lifetime Member

On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 12:24:51 -0700 (PDT), WILLIS COOKE <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>I still maintain that someone who is trying to learn CW and still needs a computer to send and possibly to receive should stay with a basic transceiver for a while until he learns to operate CW without a computer. He should not purchase a pin diode assembly that is 6" X 4" x 9 1/2" to work with his "base station" amplifier which is 11" x 12" x 6" and needs an 90 amp 12 volt power supply for CW until he learns to operate CW. The K3, which I presume he has the 100 watt model since the low power conversion will not furnish the 50 to 90 watts specified for input to the SG-500. 100 watts is enough power for a lot of nice CW contacts, even 10 watts will do the trick with a reasonably good antenna. Most manufacturers find it unwise to try to run 500 watts PEP with transistorized amplifiers supplied with 12 or 14 volts and design for 40 or more volts. The web site for SGC does not show any particular expertise or make any claims for purity of signal.
> Maybe they are great, but I am not convinced.
>
>That being said, I fully support CW operation and love it myself. I think everyone who is the least bit inclined to do so learn to operate CW. I like to operate QSK very much with my K3 and do often operate with 500 watts QSK, but most of the time I don't need that much power. I do indeed wish Don the very best experience in learning CW, but I think that trying to tame the SG-500 at the same time will make it more difficult than it needs to be.
>
>Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
>K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart
>
>
>________________________________
> From: Bob Nielsen <[hidden email]>
>To: Elecraft List <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 12:41 PM
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Break in with an amp question
>
>Ameritron sells a PIN diode switch assembly (http://www.ameritron.com/Product.php?productid=QSK-5) which can be used for this purpose.
>
>Bob N7XY
>
>On Mar 17, 2012, at 9:18 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> The powercube is definitely a ham amplifier. I know of at least one
>> owner who is very happy with the one he has but, then, he only operates SSB.
>>
>> Most amps that use relay T/R switching (and that is *most* amps) do the
>> clickety-clack thing. I know of failed relays that could not take the
>> abuse. Your solution of using semi-breakin with an appropriate delay is
>> the only way to avoid this problem. With my new KPA500 I no longer have
>> that problem but, with my previous Tokyo HyPower amp, I used a homebrew
>> PIN Diode switching system to do all of my T/R antenna switching with
>> all solid state circuitry but that is not a trivial exercise.
>>
>> Don K7FJ
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/17/2012 4:49 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>> I am attempting to slowly learn to work with CW but at first it is with
>>> a computer program but I am not sure if that is relevant.
>>>
>>> I understand the reason for break in as it allows for RX listening
>>> between your TX in case someone it trying to contact your.
>>>
>>> The issue is that when using VOX and with semi or full breakin when
>>> using my amp the relays in the amp are clicking and clacking like crazy
>>> which to me seems very abusive to the amp. My solution has been to go
>>> to semi break in and then set a long delay time so the amp and K3 stay
>>> keyed.
>>>
>>> The amp is an SGC powercube and I do have it wired to the K3 so it gets
>>> a PTT signal.
>>>
>>> Am I doing the right thing with the delay or are there other ways to
>>> stop the amp from going nuts or is this just the nature of the beast.
>>>
>>>
>>> ~73
>>> Don
>>> KD8NNU
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>_____
>N7XY DX Cluster Node - telnet to n7xy.net, port 7300
>
>
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
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>
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Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

Tony Estep

Re: K3 Break in with an amp question

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 10:15 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> ...the amp
> can be USER MODIFIED to operate at up to 30MHz ;o)
==============
That's noting unusual. Almost all amps are sold that way, with
operation up to 22 MHz and a separate user-mod kit that can be
installed by a licensed ham. It's been that way for 30 years or more.

The purpose behind this is obvious. Elecraft gets around this approach
some way, but they're in the minority.

Tony KT0NY

--
http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352
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Phil Salas

Re: K3 Break in with an amp question

Yes - Ameritron tube amps have had the "cut the green wire mod" and
Ameritron SS amps have had the optional 10/12 meter filter for many years.

Phil - AD5X

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