K3 CW speed request

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K3 CW speed request

charles-70
Is it possible to have a speed step of .5 in between the present CW speed
settings of whole numbers?

I am particularly looking for a CW speed of 21.5 wpm just now.

A linear speed setting instead of the step change would be even better :-)

Charles - M0BIN
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Re: K3 CW speed request

David Pratt
In a recent message, charles <[hidden email]> wrote ...
>Is it possible to have a speed step of .5 in between the present CW speed
>settings of whole numbers?
>
>I am particularly looking for a CW speed of 21.5 wpm just now.

Charles, I doubt that the tolerance of the K3 displayed speed is better
than +/- 0.5wpm, so you may find that 21 or 22wpm could be just the
speed you are looking for.  Have you measured it accurately?  Your
findings would be of interest here.

73
--
David G4DMP/G3KEP
Leeds, UK
------


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Re: K3 CW speed request

drewko
On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:53:14 +0100, David G4DMP/G3KEP wrote:

>In a recent message, charles <[hidden email]> wrote ...
>>Is it possible to have a speed step of .5 in between the present CW speed
>>settings of whole numbers?
>>
>>I am particularly looking for a CW speed of 21.5 wpm just now.
>
>Charles, I doubt that the tolerance of the K3 displayed speed is better
>than +/- 0.5wpm, so you may find that 21 or 22wpm could be just the
>speed you are looking for.  Have you measured it accurately?  Your
>findings would be of interest here.
>
>73


I measured the sidetone dah lengths at the speaker:

A 22wpm dah is 0.207 sec; a 21wpm dah is 0.219 sec. Not sure about the
conversion to wpm but I think this comes out to 24 wpm and 22.8 wpm
respectively; could be wrong.

73,
Drew
AF2Z

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Re: K3 CW speed request

Andrew Faber
Those dashes sound a little long.  The formula normally used to calculate
lengths of  elements is
dot length (msec) equals 1200 divided by wpm.
  Thus, at 22 wpm, the dot length should be 54.5 msec.  Dashes are normally
three times as long, i.e., 163.5 msec.
  73, andy, ae6y
----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CW speed request


> On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:53:14 +0100, David G4DMP/G3KEP wrote:
>
>>In a recent message, charles <[hidden email]> wrote ...
>>>Is it possible to have a speed step of .5 in between the present CW speed
>>>settings of whole numbers?
>>>
>>>I am particularly looking for a CW speed of 21.5 wpm just now.
>>
>>Charles, I doubt that the tolerance of the K3 displayed speed is better
>>than +/- 0.5wpm, so you may find that 21 or 22wpm could be just the
>>speed you are looking for.  Have you measured it accurately?  Your
>>findings would be of interest here.
>>
>>73
>
>
> I measured the sidetone dah lengths at the speaker:
>
> A 22wpm dah is 0.207 sec; a 21wpm dah is 0.219 sec. Not sure about the
> conversion to wpm but I think this comes out to 24 wpm and 22.8 wpm
> respectively; could be wrong.
>
> 73,
> Drew
> AF2Z
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: K3 CW speed request

charles-70
In reply to this post by charles-70
On Thursday 03 July 2008 13:17:59 Bob Serwy wrote:
> I am curious.  What is the significance of 21.5 WPM?

The settings on the speed control knob are a step change.
I am asking if the size of the step change can be reduced from 1 wpm to .5 wpm
(nominal).
Maybe I should be requesting that the character speed setting should be halved
and indicated in .5 steps because the speed control knob actually controls
the character speed.
The actual overall wpm is set by the sender depending on the timing of the gap
between each character and each word.
I hope that I have now clarified just what I am requesting :-)

The Logikeyer changes the character speed on a linear scale which gives the
operator greater control and flexibility.

Charles - M0BIN
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Re: K3 CW speed request

drewko
In reply to this post by Andrew Faber
Dahs are actually twice the length of dits, I think. Or technically,
the dah period is twice the dit period (i.e., a dah sound plus its
space is equal to two dit sounds and their spaces).

I measured the dahs instead of dits because I don't have a keyer; just
pluged my mono straight key plug into the paddle jack and it gives
dahs.

I measured the period by averaging over five dah periods with the K3
readout set at 22 wpm and 21 wpm, giving periods of  0.207s and
0.219s, as mentioned. I measured the sidetone at the headphone jack
using audio waveform software.

73,
Drew
AF2Z



On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:39:55 -0700, andy, ae6y wrote:

>Those dashes sound a little long.  The formula normally used to calculate
>lengths of  elements is
>dot length (msec) equals 1200 divided by wpm.
>  Thus, at 22 wpm, the dot length should be 54.5 msec.  Dashes are normally
>three times as long, i.e., 163.5 msec.
>  73, andy, ae6y
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <[hidden email]>
>To: <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 6:58 AM
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CW speed request
>
>
>> On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:53:14 +0100, David G4DMP/G3KEP wrote:
>>
>>>In a recent message, charles <[hidden email]> wrote ...
>>>>Is it possible to have a speed step of .5 in between the present CW speed
>>>>settings of whole numbers?
>>>>
>>>>I am particularly looking for a CW speed of 21.5 wpm just now.
>>>
>>>Charles, I doubt that the tolerance of the K3 displayed speed is better
>>>than +/- 0.5wpm, so you may find that 21 or 22wpm could be just the
>>>speed you are looking for.  Have you measured it accurately?  Your
>>>findings would be of interest here.
>>>
>>>73
>>
>>
>> I measured the sidetone dah lengths at the speaker:
>>
>> A 22wpm dah is 0.207 sec; a 21wpm dah is 0.219 sec. Not sure about the
>> conversion to wpm but I think this comes out to 24 wpm and 22.8 wpm
>> respectively; could be wrong.
>>
>> 73,
>> Drew
>> AF2Z
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
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>

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Re: K3 CW speed request

charles-70
In reply to this post by David Pratt
On Thursday 03 July 2008 13:53:14 David Pratt wrote:

> In a recent message, charles <[hidden email]> wrote ...
>
> >Is it possible to have a speed step of .5 in between the present CW speed
> >settings of whole numbers?
> >
> >I am particularly looking for a CW speed of 21.5 wpm just now.
>
> Charles, I doubt that the tolerance of the K3 displayed speed is better
> than +/- 0.5wpm, so you may find that 21 or 22wpm could be just the
> speed you are looking for.  Have you measured it accurately?  Your
> findings would be of interest here.

Thank you David - please see my reply to Bob Serwy.

Charles - M0BIN

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Re: K3 CW speed request

charles-70
In reply to this post by drewko
On Thursday 03 July 2008 14:58:51 [hidden email] wrote:

> I measured the sidetone dah lengths at the speaker:
>
> A 22wpm dah is 0.207 sec; a 21wpm dah is 0.219 sec. Not sure about the
> conversion to wpm but I think this comes out to 24 wpm and 22.8 wpm
> respectively; could be wrong.

Thank you Drew, please see my reply to Bob Serwy.

Charles - M0BIN

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RE: K3 CW speed request

Darwin, Keith
In reply to this post by charles-70
What's confusing is why anyone would need 0.5 wpm resolution.  If 21.5
wpm is the target, why isn't 21 or 22 wpm good enough?  I suspect there
is a reason but I can't guess what it is.

If you need true 0.5 wpm resolution and an accurate 21.5 rate, maybe it
is time for an external keyer.

- Keith N1AS -
- K3 711 -

-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CW speed request

On Thursday 03 July 2008 13:17:59 Bob Serwy wrote:
> I am curious.  What is the significance of 21.5 WPM?

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Re: K3 CW speed request

charles-70
On Thursday 03 July 2008 16:14:36 Darwin, Keith wrote:
> What's confusing is why anyone would need 0.5 wpm resolution.  If 21.5
> wpm is the target, why isn't 21 or 22 wpm good enough?  I suspect there
> is a reason but I can't guess what it is.
>
> If you need true 0.5 wpm resolution and an accurate 21.5 rate, maybe it
> is time for an external keyer.
Thank you for your reply Keith.
Are you a CW operator ?

Charles - M0BIN
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Re: K3 CW speed request

drewko
In reply to this post by Andrew Faber
Ok, using your formula, and allowing for my measurement of dah periods
(not just dah sound portion of cycle), substituting equivalent dit
sound time (at assumed 3:1 ratio), I get the following conversions:

22 wpm K3 readout  
measured 0.207 dah period
51.8 msec dit sound equivalent at 3:1 ratio
23.2 wpm calculated by the "1200" formula

21 wpm K3 readout
measured 0.219 dah period
54.8 msec dit sound equivalent at 3:1 ratio
21.9 wpm calculated by the "1200" formula

73,
Drew
AF2Z


On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:39:55 -0700, andy, ae6y wrote:

>Those dashes sound a little long.  The formula normally used to calculate
>lengths of  elements is
>dot length (msec) equals 1200 divided by wpm.
>  Thus, at 22 wpm, the dot length should be 54.5 msec.  Dashes are normally
>three times as long, i.e., 163.5 msec.
>  73, andy, ae6y

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Re: K3 CW speed request

Andrew Faber
In reply to this post by drewko
Drew,
  I don't think that is correct.  Normal CW has a dash that is three times
as long as a dot. If you have dashes as short as twice as long as dots, the
code sounds very strange.  The ratio, i.e., three to one, is purely of the
length of the character.  Normal spacing between dots and dashes is one dot
length, independent of the dot to dash ratio.  If the transmitted code
sounds OK, and the dashes are truly as long as you say, then the speed
control is mis-calibrated.
  I note that the K3 has a menu entry for what they call CW Weight, defined
as the dot to space ratio (although often CW weight is used to mean the dot
to dash ratio). Not sure if there is a way on the internal keyer to vary the
dot to dash ratio. Most outboard keyers allow you to play with the dot to
dash ratio, and some people like to vary it a bit from three to one.

  73, Andy, ae6y.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CW speed request


> Dahs are actually twice the length of dits, I think. Or technically,
> the dah period is twice the dit period (i.e., a dah sound plus its
> space is equal to two dit sounds and their spaces).
>
> I measured the dahs instead of dits because I don't have a keyer; just
> pluged my mono straight key plug into the paddle jack and it gives
> dahs.
>
> I measured the period by averaging over five dah periods with the K3
> readout set at 22 wpm and 21 wpm, giving periods of  0.207s and
> 0.219s, as mentioned. I measured the sidetone at the headphone jack
> using audio waveform software.
>
> 73,
> Drew
> AF2Z
>
>
>
> On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:39:55 -0700, andy, ae6y wrote:
>
>>Those dashes sound a little long.  The formula normally used to calculate
>>lengths of  elements is
>>dot length (msec) equals 1200 divided by wpm.
>>  Thus, at 22 wpm, the dot length should be 54.5 msec.  Dashes are
>> normally
>>three times as long, i.e., 163.5 msec.
>>  73, andy, ae6y
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: <[hidden email]>
>>To: <[hidden email]>
>>Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 6:58 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CW speed request
>>
>>
>>> On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:53:14 +0100, David G4DMP/G3KEP wrote:
>>>
>>>>In a recent message, charles <[hidden email]> wrote ...
>>>>>Is it possible to have a speed step of .5 in between the present CW
>>>>>speed
>>>>>settings of whole numbers?
>>>>>
>>>>>I am particularly looking for a CW speed of 21.5 wpm just now.
>>>>
>>>>Charles, I doubt that the tolerance of the K3 displayed speed is better
>>>>than +/- 0.5wpm, so you may find that 21 or 22wpm could be just the
>>>>speed you are looking for.  Have you measured it accurately?  Your
>>>>findings would be of interest here.
>>>>
>>>>73
>>>
>>>
>>> I measured the sidetone dah lengths at the speaker:
>>>
>>> A 22wpm dah is 0.207 sec; a 21wpm dah is 0.219 sec. Not sure about the
>>> conversion to wpm but I think this comes out to 24 wpm and 22.8 wpm
>>> respectively; could be wrong.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Drew
>>> AF2Z
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Post to: [hidden email]
>>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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>>>
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>>
>>
>
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RE: K3 CW speed request

Darwin, Keith
In reply to this post by charles-70
Yes, CW only, using straight key or bug these days.  My paddles are
packed away most of the time but I know where they are.  My mic is
packed away and I'd have to go hunting to find it.

- Keith N1AS -
- K3 711 -

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of charles

Thank you for your reply Keith.
Are you a CW operator ?

Charles - M0BIN
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Re: K3 CW speed request

charles-70
In reply to this post by drewko
On Thursday 03 July 2008 16:18:21 [hidden email] wrote:

> Ok, using your formula, and allowing for my measurement of dah periods
> (not just dah sound portion of cycle), substituting equivalent dit
> sound time (at assumed 3:1 ratio), I get the following conversions:
>
> 22 wpm K3 readout
> measured 0.207 dah period
> 51.8 msec dit sound equivalent at 3:1 ratio
> 23.2 wpm calculated by the "1200" formula
>
> 21 wpm K3 readout
> measured 0.219 dah period
> 54.8 msec dit sound equivalent at 3:1 ratio
> 21.9 wpm calculated by the "1200" formula
The K3 internal keyer is an excellent keyer and I find nothing wrong with the
weighting or the weighting adjustment control. I am asking if the speed
control resolution could be halved.

Charles - M0BIN
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Re: K3 CW speed request

Andrew Faber
In reply to this post by drewko
Drew,
  OK, now I understand: your times are for a dash plus one space.  So, in
effect a dot would be one quarter of that length at normal weighting.
Sounds like the calibration may be within the error of measurement.
  73, andy, ae6y
----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 CW speed request


> Ok, using your formula, and allowing for my measurement of dah periods
> (not just dah sound portion of cycle), substituting equivalent dit
> sound time (at assumed 3:1 ratio), I get the following conversions:
>
> 22 wpm K3 readout
> measured 0.207 dah period
> 51.8 msec dit sound equivalent at 3:1 ratio
> 23.2 wpm calculated by the "1200" formula
>
> 21 wpm K3 readout
> measured 0.219 dah period
> 54.8 msec dit sound equivalent at 3:1 ratio
> 21.9 wpm calculated by the "1200" formula
>
> 73,
> Drew
> AF2Z
>
>
> On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:39:55 -0700, andy, ae6y wrote:
>
>>Those dashes sound a little long.  The formula normally used to calculate
>>lengths of  elements is
>>dot length (msec) equals 1200 divided by wpm.
>>  Thus, at 22 wpm, the dot length should be 54.5 msec.  Dashes are
>> normally
>>three times as long, i.e., 163.5 msec.
>>  73, andy, ae6y
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: K3 CW speed request

Vic K2VCO
In reply to this post by charles-70
charles wrote:

> The K3 internal keyer is an excellent keyer and I find nothing wrong with the
> weighting or the weighting adjustment control. I am asking if the speed
> control resolution could be halved.

What everyone really wants to know, Charles, is *why* this is important.
It would cause speed changes to be slower, and special care on the part
of the programmer to assure precise timing. Timing issues in a radio
like the K3 are complicated, because of the asynchronous events which
also have to be handled.

In addition to the inaccuracy of the keyer, the operator's spacing is
highly variable (even if the keyer supports autospacing, which the K3's
does not).

In my experience a resolution of 1 wpm is quite adequate. I've been a CW
operator for 51 years, although I'm not sure how relevant this is.

So the question is, "what's magic about 21.5 wpm?"
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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Re: K3 CW speed request

N5GE
In reply to this post by charles-70
On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 12:54:01 +0100, charles <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Is it possible to have a speed step of .5 in between the present CW speed
>settings of whole numbers?
>
>I am particularly looking for a CW speed of 21.5 wpm just now.
>
>A linear speed setting instead of the step change would be even better :-)
>
>Charles - M0BIN

[snip]

Charles,

I see nothing wrong with your question and have no reason to object to it's
implementation.

Now, I would like to pose a question to the group:

Do you actually use your K3's or do you test them all the time?

I see many posts under the original that are nothing but OT discussions about
character spacing, length ratios of dits and dahs, etc.  These posts don't
answering Charles' question and many times they end up going on forever, like
this one will.

Please, let's stop changing the subject of posts by turning them into OT
technical discussions and use another forum to discuss OT technical subjects
that don't relate to the poster's question or statement.

Best regards to all,

Tom, N5GE

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Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
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Re: K3 CW speed request [END of thread]

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ
Administrator
In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO
Hi Guys,

Unfortunately it is not practical for us to do 0.5 WPM increments in the
firmware for a number of internal reasons.

So let's end this thread for now.

Also, please remember to restrain posting when you see more than 10
posts on a subject in a day. This will go a long way towards lowering
the noise level on the list. :-)

73, Eric   WA6HHQ
Elecraft List Moderator

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Re: K3 CW speed request

charles-70
In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO
On Thursday 03 July 2008 17:09:04 Vic K2VCO wrote:

> What everyone really wants to know, Charles, is *why* this is important.
> It would cause speed changes to be slower, and special care on the part
> of the programmer to assure precise timing. Timing issues in a radio
> like the K3 are complicated, because of the asynchronous events which
> also have to be handled.
>
> In addition to the inaccuracy of the keyer, the operator's spacing is
> highly variable (even if the keyer supports autospacing, which the K3's
> does not).
>
> In my experience a resolution of 1 wpm is quite adequate. I've been a CW
> operator for 51 years, although I'm not sure how relevant this is.
>
> So the question is, "what's magic about 21.5 wpm?"

Thanks for the reply Vic.
Nearly all my operating is on CW rag chew. The microphone is only plugged in
for the Radio Club SSB net. I have ten year's experience of CW operation and
I would say that I am still learning.
I like to send at a speed that is close to the other guy's speed.
I like to send clearly with correct spacing and without too many mistakes so
that the other guy can copy well.
At my present stage of learning CW I can comfortably send at 21 wpm on the K3
speed control. I am referring to a rag chew that can last up to 30/45
minutes. I do not know what overall speed I am sending at and it is not
necessarily relavent to this discusion.  There are days when I can send well
at 22 wpm on the K3 speed control and meet the above requirements to ensure
that I am sending clearly and in a way that the other guy can copy well.
However, there are days when the K3 speed control of 22 wpm is too fast and
days when the K3 speed control of 21 wpm is too slow.  On those days I would
like to be be able to set the K3 speed control to 21.5 wpm. There is
nothing "magic" about this :-)  perhaps one day I shall find the need for a
K3 speed control of 22.5 wpm :-)
Perhaps the reason why I have this problem with the K3 speed control is
because until I started using the K3 internal keyer I have always used the
Logikeyer from Bob Locher.

I hope that I have described my situation adequately and that I have now
clearly explained the reason for my request for a finer resolution on the K3
keyer speed control knob.

Charles - M0BIN



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Re: K3 CW speed request [END of thread]

charles-70
In reply to this post by Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ
On Thursday 03 July 2008 17:30:01 Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> Unfortunately it is not practical for us to do 0.5 WPM increments in the
> firmware for a number of internal reasons.
Thank you Eric - That's all I wanted to know :-)

Best regards from Charles - M0BIN
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