K3: Configuring N1MM to send CW

[Bill Feidt]

I'm trying to set up N1MM to send CW to my K3 for ARRL DX CW next weekend.  I'm
using the USB to Serial cable supplied by Elecraft.  The computer radio control
is working fine and I'm able to get spots, change bands, QSY to spots, etc. I'm
set up for SO1V. I've checked "CW" box on the same port (COM4) as is used for
radio control. The N1MM K3 "SupportedRadios" page
(http://pages.cthome.net/n1mm/html/English/SupportedRadios.htm) says,

   The K3 accepts CW on DTR (pin 4) of the same COM port
   you're using to control the K3. Set N1MM to send CW on
   that port (Ports setup), and set PTT-KEY (second K3
   CONFIG menu) to OFF-DTR, and set the K3 for QSK. In
   other words, you don't need that transistor adapter unless
   you want to do SO2R.

However, when I set PTT-KEY to OFF-DTR, the K3 goes into "Test" output mode and
the transmitted in keyed continuously until I take it out of OFF-DTR.  The K3 is
set for QSK.

What am I doing wrong?

Any insight will be very much appreciated.

73,

Bill/NG3K





______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[wb5tuf]

 Had this same problem. I am not using a USB- just a regular COM port. I
finally had to switch to the Kenwood TS 940 driver in n1mm. The K3 driver
would go into transmit as soon as I would try to select the DTR function.

Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill Feidt
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 4:28 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] K3: Configuring N1MM to send CW

I'm trying to set up N1MM to send CW to my K3 for ARRL DX CW next weekend.
I'm
using the USB to Serial cable supplied by Elecraft.  The computer radio
control
is working fine and I'm able to get spots, change bands, QSY to spots, etc.
I'm
set up for SO1V. I've checked "CW" box on the same port (COM4) as is used
for
radio control. The N1MM K3 "SupportedRadios" page
(http://pages.cthome.net/n1mm/html/English/SupportedRadios.htm) says,

   The K3 accepts CW on DTR (pin 4) of the same COM port
   you're using to control the K3. Set N1MM to send CW on
   that port (Ports setup), and set PTT-KEY (second K3
   CONFIG menu) to OFF-DTR, and set the K3 for QSK. In
   other words, you don't need that transistor adapter unless
   you want to do SO2R.

However, when I set PTT-KEY to OFF-DTR, the K3 goes into "Test" output mode
and
the transmitted in keyed continuously until I take it out of OFF-DTR.  The
K3 is
set for QSK.

What am I doing wrong?

Any insight will be very much appreciated.

73,

Bill/NG3K





______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html


______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Julius Fazekas n2wn]

Bill,

Make sure the settings in your K3 match what you're telling N1MM to do. When I've run into such a problem it was due to a mismatch.

I think my K3 is set DTR-RTS (not in front of the radio, so don't take this as gospel).

Crank down the power, or go to test mode. It will save you from ummm any unfortunate transmissions.

I can send more details when I get home if you need them. GL in the 'test!

Cheers,
Julius
n2wn

Bill Feidt wrote

I'm trying to set up N1MM to send CW to my K3 for ARRL DX CW next weekend.  I'm
using the USB to Serial cable supplied by Elecraft.  The computer radio control
is working fine and I'm able to get spots, change bands, QSY to spots, etc. I'm
set up for SO1V. I've checked "CW" box on the same port (COM4) as is used for
radio control. The N1MM K3 "SupportedRadios" page
(http://pages.cthome.net/n1mm/html/English/SupportedRadios.htm) says,

   The K3 accepts CW on DTR (pin 4) of the same COM port
   you're using to control the K3. Set N1MM to send CW on
   that port (Ports setup), and set PTT-KEY (second K3
   CONFIG menu) to OFF-DTR, and set the K3 for QSK. In
   other words, you don't need that transistor adapter unless
   you want to do SO2R.

However, when I set PTT-KEY to OFF-DTR, the K3 goes into "Test" output mode and
the transmitted in keyed continuously until I take it out of OFF-DTR.  The K3 is
set for QSK.

What am I doing wrong?

Any insight will be very much appreciated.

73,

Bill/NG3K





______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[e-mail]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[w0mu]

To key cw you will need some type of keying circuitry.  You have to have a keying transistor to send CW.

 6.4 Setup up PTT−ing the rig/sending CW
Sending CW and PTT−ing the radio can be done three different ways.
Using the Parallel port
Add an interface to the parallel port, this can be a simple one transistor circuit (for
each pin one) but also a bought interface . More on this in the interfacing chapter. Pin
16 is used for PTT and pin 17 for CW, these are fixed values.
¨
Go to the Configurer and select the hardware tab.
à Select behind the LPT port to use the "CW/Other" selection box.
Select the 'Set' button and choose the right settings (CW−speed, PTT−delay
and the CW/Other port address).
à
The CW/Other Port Address should be the same as used in you Windows
configuration.
à
à Select the correct Radio/VFO setting (1, 2 or Both)
à Press OK
¨
¨ PTT and CW should work now.
·
Using the Serial port
Add an interface to the serial port, this can be a simple one transistor circuit (for each
pin one) but also a bought interface . More on this in the interfacing chapter. Mostly
the RTS is used for PTT and DTR for CW.
¨
Go to the Configurer and select the hardware tab.
à Select behind the serial port to use the "CW/Other" selection box.
Select the 'Set' button and choose the right settings (CW−speed, PTT−delay
and the CW/Other port address).
à
à Select the pin to use to PTT and CW.
The CW/Other Port Address should be the same as used in you Windows
configuration.
à
à Select the correct Radio/VFO setting (1, 2 or Both)
When Winkey is used also select this setting. The baudrate etc. for Winkey is
fixed and set by the program.
à
à Press OK
¨
¨ PTT and CW should work now.
·
Using a USB port
¨ PTT via a USB port can not be done direct, a USB−to−serial converter is needed.
Not every Serial−to−USB can change the status of the RTS (and DTR) pins . So
check before you buy.
¨
¨ When this device is setup in Windows select the serial port used by it.
¨ Follow the steps for a serial port to set up for PTT−ing.


"A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over." Ben Franklin
-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Julius Fazekas n2wn
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 9:24 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: Configuring N1MM to send CW


Bill,

Make sure the settings in your K3 match what you're telling N1MM to do. When I've run into such a problem it was due to a mismatch.

I think my K3 is set DTR-RTS (not in front of the radio, so don't take this as gospel).

Crank down the power, or go to test mode. It will save you from ummm any unfortunate transmissions.

I can send more details when I get home if you need them. GL in the 'test!

Cheers,
Julius
n2wn


Bill Feidt wrote:

>
> I'm trying to set up N1MM to send CW to my K3 for ARRL DX CW next weekend.
> I'm
> using the USB to Serial cable supplied by Elecraft.  The computer
> radio control is working fine and I'm able to get spots, change bands,
> QSY to spots, etc. I'm set up for SO1V. I've checked "CW" box on the
> same port (COM4) as is used for radio control. The N1MM K3
> "SupportedRadios" page
> (http://pages.cthome.net/n1mm/html/English/SupportedRadios.htm) says,
>
>    The K3 accepts CW on DTR (pin 4) of the same COM port
>    you're using to control the K3. Set N1MM to send CW on
>    that port (Ports setup), and set PTT-KEY (second K3
>    CONFIG menu) to OFF-DTR, and set the K3 for QSK. In
>    other words, you don't need that transistor adapter unless
>    you want to do SO2R.
>
> However, when I set PTT-KEY to OFF-DTR, the K3 goes into "Test" output
> mode and the transmitted in keyed continuously until I take it out of
> OFF-DTR.  The
> K3 is
> set for QSK.
>
> What am I doing wrong?
>
> Any insight will be very much appreciated.
>
> 73,
>
> Bill/NG3K
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

--
View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3%3A-Configuring-N1MM-to-send-CW-tp2331726p2335730.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Hank Garretson]

At 08:43 AM 16 02 2009, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote:

>To key cw you will need some type of keying circuitry.

You CAN key the K3 using RS-232 command without a keying
interface.  See page 18 of the manual.


73,

Hank, W6SX

Mammoth Lakes, California

Elevation 8083 feet in John Muir's Range of Light

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Richard Ferch]

W0MU wrote:

> To key cw you will need some type of keying circuitry.  You have to have a
keying \
> transistor to send CW.

Not true with the K3, Mike. Unlike most other radios, the K3 accepts CW and
PTT keying signals on DTR and/or RTS without any need for a keying circuit -
see the manual p. 18, near the bottom of the left column. The N1MM
documentation has not caught up with this.

If you have N1MM Logger configured for CW on DTR and PTT on RTS on the radio
control port and you set the K3's CONFIG:PTT-KEY option set to RTS-DTR, then
the Logger will key both PTT and CW with just a straight RS-232 cable and no
other connections. If you only want to key one of CW and PTT via this port
(for example, if you key CW with a Winkey on a different serial port), then
you can adjust the configuration accordingly (e.g. RTS set to PTT and DTR
set to Always off, with the CONFIG:PTT-KEY set to RTS-OFF).

To make this work, you must make the software and the radio configurations
match, and you must do it in the right order. First, go into the N1MM
Logger's Configurer and change the configuration on the appropriate control
line(s) from "Always on" to the desired value (PTT or CW). After you have
both DTR and RTS set to the desired values in the software, and you have
made sure that there is a check mark in the CW/Other column beside the port
you are using for CW, *only then* go into the K3's CONFIG:PTT-KEY menu item
and set it accordingly.

If you make the changes in the reverse order (radio first), the default
"Always on" setting in the software will key the radio, just like putting a
brick on the key.

As a side note, although the N1MM Configurer suggests "Always on" as the
default for DTR and RTS on the radio port, with the K3 it would be better to
set these defaults to "Always off" - that way, making a change to the K3's
CONFIG menu without first changing the software configuration will not
result in a key-down condition.

73,
Rich VE3KI

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Julius Fazekas n2wn]

Actually Mike, you do not need a keying circuit using a serial cable with the K3. I run a direct serial cable from the computer to the rig and it works like a champ!

I did have timing issues with the K2 and N1MM and had to go to a K1EL keyer to resolve that.

73,
Julius

Julius Fazekas
N2WN

Tennessee Contest Group
TnQP http://www.tnqp.org/

Elecraft K2/100 #4455
Elecraft K3/100 #366


--- On Mon, 2/16/09, W0MU Mike Fatchett (via Nabble) <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: W0MU Mike Fatchett (via Nabble) <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: Configuring N1MM to send CW
> To: "Julius Fazekas n2wn" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Monday, February 16, 2009, 11:42 AM
> To key cw you will need some type of keying circuitry.  You
> have to have a keying transistor to send CW.
>
>  6.4 Setup up PTT−ing the rig/sending CW
> Sending CW and PTT−ing the radio can be done three
> different ways.
> Using the Parallel port
> Add an interface to the parallel port, this can be a simple
> one transistor circuit (for
> each pin one) but also a bought interface . More on this in
> the interfacing chapter. Pin
> 16 is used for PTT and pin 17 for CW, these are fixed
> values.
> ¨
> Go to the Configurer and select the hardware tab.
> à Select behind the LPT port to use the
> "CW/Other" selection box.
> Select the 'Set' button and choose the right
> settings (CW−speed, PTT−delay
> and the CW/Other port address).
> à
> The CW/Other Port Address should be the same as used in you
> Windows
> configuration.
> à
> à Select the correct Radio/VFO setting (1, 2 or Both)
> à Press OK
> ¨
> ¨ PTT and CW should work now.
> ·
> Using the Serial port
> Add an interface to the serial port, this can be a simple
> one transistor circuit (for each
> pin one) but also a bought interface . More on this in the
> interfacing chapter. Mostly
> the RTS is used for PTT and DTR for CW.
> ¨
> Go to the Configurer and select the hardware tab.
> à Select behind the serial port to use the
> "CW/Other" selection box.
> Select the 'Set' button and choose the right
> settings (CW−speed, PTT−delay
> and the CW/Other port address).
> à
> à Select the pin to use to PTT and CW.
> The CW/Other Port Address should be the same as used in you
> Windows
> configuration.
> à
> à Select the correct Radio/VFO setting (1, 2 or Both)
> When Winkey is used also select this setting. The baudrate
> etc. for Winkey is
> fixed and set by the program.
> à
> à Press OK
> ¨
> ¨ PTT and CW should work now.
> ·
> Using a USB port
> ¨ PTT via a USB port can not be done direct, a
> USB−to−serial converter is needed.
> Not every Serial−to−USB can change the status of the
> RTS (and DTR) pins . So
> check before you buy.
> ¨
> ¨ When this device is setup in Windows select the serial
> port used by it.
> ¨ Follow the steps for a serial port to set up for
> PTT−ing.
>
>
> "A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip
> of the tongue you may never get over." Ben Franklin
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Julius Fazekas n2wn
> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 9:24 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: Configuring N1MM to send CW
>
>
> Bill,
>
> Make sure the settings in your K3 match what you're
> telling N1MM to do. When I've run into such a problem it
> was due to a mismatch.
>
> I think my K3 is set DTR-RTS (not in front of the radio, so
> don't take this as gospel).
>
> Crank down the power, or go to test mode. It will save you
> from ummm any unfortunate transmissions.
>
> I can send more details when I get home if you need them.
> GL in the 'test!
>
> Cheers,
> Julius
> n2wn
>
>
> Bill Feidt wrote:
> >
> > I'm trying to set up N1MM to send CW to my K3 for
> ARRL DX CW next weekend.
> > I'm
> > using the USB to Serial cable supplied by Elecraft.
> The computer
> > radio control is working fine and I'm able to get
> spots, change bands,
> > QSY to spots, etc. I'm set up for SO1V. I've
> checked "CW" box on the
> > same port (COM4) as is used for radio control. The
> N1MM K3
> > "SupportedRadios" page
> >
> (http://pages.cthome.net/n1mm/html/English/SupportedRadios.htm)
> says,
> >
> >    The K3 accepts CW on DTR (pin 4) of the same COM
> port
> >    you're using to control the K3. Set N1MM to
> send CW on
> >    that port (Ports setup), and set PTT-KEY (second K3
> >    CONFIG menu) to OFF-DTR, and set the K3 for QSK. In
> >    other words, you don't need that transistor
> adapter unless
> >    you want to do SO2R.
> >
> > However, when I set PTT-KEY to OFF-DTR, the K3 goes
> into "Test" output
> > mode and the transmitted in keyed continuously until I
> take it out of
> > OFF-DTR.  The
> > K3 is
> > set for QSK.
> >
> > What am I doing wrong?
> >
> > Any insight will be very much appreciated.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > Bill/NG3K
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help
> support this email
> > list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n2.nabble.com/K3%3A-Configuring-N1MM-to-send-CW-tp2331726p2335730.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________
>
> This email is a reply to your post @
> http://n2.nabble.com/K3%3A-Configuring-N1MM-to-send-CW-tp2331726p2335827.html
> You can reply by email or by visting the link above.

[w0mu]

Cool.  Another feature that should be added to the list of cool features you
might not know about.

I use an MK2R+ so I never looked at the keying side.  

Lots of gems in the K3.


"A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may
never get over." Ben Franklin
-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard Ferch
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 10:33 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: Configuring N1MM to send CW

W0MU wrote:

> To key cw you will need some type of keying circuitry.  You have to
> have a
keying \
> transistor to send CW.

Not true with the K3, Mike. Unlike most other radios, the K3 accepts CW and
PTT keying signals on DTR and/or RTS without any need for a keying circuit -
see the manual p. 18, near the bottom of the left column. The N1MM
documentation has not caught up with this.

If you have N1MM Logger configured for CW on DTR and PTT on RTS on the radio
control port and you set the K3's CONFIG:PTT-KEY option set to RTS-DTR, then
the Logger will key both PTT and CW with just a straight RS-232 cable and no
other connections. If you only want to key one of CW and PTT via this port
(for example, if you key CW with a Winkey on a different serial port), then
you can adjust the configuration accordingly (e.g. RTS set to PTT and DTR
set to Always off, with the CONFIG:PTT-KEY set to RTS-OFF).

To make this work, you must make the software and the radio configurations
match, and you must do it in the right order. First, go into the N1MM
Logger's Configurer and change the configuration on the appropriate control
line(s) from "Always on" to the desired value (PTT or CW). After you have
both DTR and RTS set to the desired values in the software, and you have
made sure that there is a check mark in the CW/Other column beside the port
you are using for CW, *only then* go into the K3's CONFIG:PTT-KEY menu item
and set it accordingly.

If you make the changes in the reverse order (radio first), the default
"Always on" setting in the software will key the radio, just like putting a
brick on the key.

As a side note, although the N1MM Configurer suggests "Always on" as the
default for DTR and RTS on the radio port, with the K3 it would be better to
set these defaults to "Always off" - that way, making a change to the K3's
CONFIG menu without first changing the software configuration will not
result in a key-down condition.

73,
Rich VE3KI

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Merv Schweigert]

Have noticed this on other bands but paid no particular attention,
but today was tuning 160 meters and every 5 khz there is a pop
or change in background receiver noise when tuning.
I listened carefully and it is there tuning up freq or down.  It is
at every 5 khz.
I can hear it at 1809.1,  1814.1, 1819.1, 1824.1  etc.   sounds
like some older rigs that when you have the tuner engaged it
tunes every so often as you tune across the band.  Like a pop
or dead spot and as you pass the background noise changes a
little.  
No tuner installed so its not that.  Just curious if anyone hears it,
takes a quiet band but its there.
Background noise is higher pitch on the low side, and lower pitch
on the high side of the "pop".  
Internal or external by some chance?
Merv KH7C
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Don Wilhelm-4]

Merv,

Is this a 2 or a K3?

If it is a K2, re-run the CAL PLL routine again.

73,
Don W3FPR

Merv Schweigert wrote:

> Have noticed this on other bands but paid no particular attention,
> but today was tuning 160 meters and every 5 khz there is a pop
> or change in background receiver noise when tuning.
> I listened carefully and it is there tuning up freq or down.  It is
> at every 5 khz.
> I can hear it at 1809.1,  1814.1, 1819.1, 1824.1  etc.   sounds
> like some older rigs that when you have the tuner engaged it
> tunes every so often as you tune across the band.  Like a pop
> or dead spot and as you pass the background noise changes a
> little.  
> No tuner installed so its not that.  Just curious if anyone hears it,
> takes a quiet band but its there.
> Background noise is higher pitch on the low side, and lower pitch
> on the high side of the "pop".  
> Internal or external by some chance?
> Merv KH7C
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1969 - Release Date: 02/24/09 06:43:00
>
>  

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[w0mu]

It is a K3.

I am not seeing this on my unit.  I even tried it with the ATU.


"A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may
never get over." Ben Franklin
-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 9:58 PM
To: Merv Schweigert
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 5 KHZ dead spots

Merv,

Is this a 2 or a K3?

If it is a K2, re-run the CAL PLL routine again.

73,
Don W3FPR

Merv Schweigert wrote:

> Have noticed this on other bands but paid no particular attention, but
> today was tuning 160 meters and every 5 khz there is a pop or change
> in background receiver noise when tuning.
> I listened carefully and it is there tuning up freq or down.  It is at
> every 5 khz.
> I can hear it at 1809.1,  1814.1, 1819.1, 1824.1  etc.   sounds
> like some older rigs that when you have the tuner engaged it tunes
> every so often as you tune across the band.  Like a pop or dead spot
> and as you pass the background noise changes a little.
> No tuner installed so its not that.  Just curious if anyone hears it,
> takes a quiet band but its there.
> Background noise is higher pitch on the low side, and lower pitch on
> the high side of the "pop".
> Internal or external by some chance?
> Merv KH7C
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1969 - Release Date:
> 02/24/09 06:43:00
>
>  

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[wayne burdick]

Merv Schweigert wrote:

> Have noticed this on other bands but paid no particular attention,
> but today was tuning 160 meters and every 5 khz there is a pop
> or change in background receiver noise when tuning.

Hi Merv,

This is normal. The K3 has an incredibly low-noise analog/digital
synthesizer. To achieve this performance, we have to use a fairly
low-frequency PLL loop (~22 kHz). This translates into a little
artifact in the VFO tuning range every 22 kHz, on average, across the
ham bands. Nearly all other PLL-based rigs have such transitions at
much wider spacing, because they use up-conversion to a VHF 1st IF and
thus much higher synthesizer output frequencies. But this results in
inferior performance, generally, and doesn't support narrow roofing
filters. (For example, most rigs on the market have a roofing filter in
the 4 to 15 kHz wide range, compared to as low as 200 Hz in the K3. Our
down-conversion scheme, to an 8.215 MHz IF, is the reason we can do
this.)

The tuning artifact is only noticeable if a moderate to strong signal
is in the passband as you tune across it. When you stop tuning, it's
gone. And while you're tuning, we do a partial mute of the receiver
(actually, we engage a low-threshold limiter for about 10 ms). This
makes it barely noticeable in most cases, which is why, with nearly
3000 K3s shipped, you've never heard a description of it until now :)

The actual spacing of the tuning artifacts varies on a per-band basis,
being smaller on the lower bands. The reason for this is a bit
complicated. We shoe-horn the reference signal for the PLL (i.e. the
DDS, the source of fine-tuning steps) through a 2.5 kHz crystal filter
to ensure there are no DDS spurs in the VCO output. 2.5 kHz is a lot
narrower than 22 kHz. So we have to constantly adjust the PLL divider
values (N and R dividers, to be precise) so that our DDS signal always
stays within the crystal filter, yet allows the PLL to generate a wide
enough frequency range to cover the segment of interest. We used a
home-brew PC program to pre-calculate the optimal N and R divider
values for the entire tuning range, and we store them in about 30 kb of
the front panel flash memory chip. As you tune the VFO, we look up the
table values.

This works smoothly, but as you noted, you might hear a soft "blip"
under just the right circumstances as you cross one of the transition
points. It's a little reminder of what it takes to create a very quiet,
high-dynamic-range RX.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


---

http://www.elecraft.com

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Terry Schieler]

Wayne wrote:

"This works smoothly, but as you noted, you might hear a soft "blip"
under just the right circumstances as you cross one of the transition
points. It's a little reminder of what it takes to create a very quiet,
high-dynamic-range RX."

73,
Wayne
N6KR


Thanks Wayne.  I've not noticed this on my K3, but it drove me nuts while
working on a friend's IC-745.  Exactly as you explained.  I've never seen it
before or since.  Now I understand it.  

73,

Terry, W0FM



______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Merv Schweigert]

Thanks very much Wayne for the explanation . Its not really a problem
as you say. If tuning very fast you also hear it pop as you pass those
points.  Majority of the time it is covered either with band noise or
with signals.

You mentioned it being heard only if there was a moderate to strong signal
in the passband,  I hear it with no signals at all in the passband,  
usually
the band noise on 160 covers it up or QRN,  last nite was a very quiet
nite and I could hear it with no signals within 25 khz,  and those signals
were S2 at loudest.

It is not a problem,  just something I noticed and was curious about the
cause.

Proves a point also,  some of the experts on the list pull the trigger
without a target in site or without knowing what they are shooting
at.  Old proverb,  "you dont know what my radio sounds like unless
you have worn the headphones for a moon".  
Dont jump on the little pistols for bringing up problems or questions,
you may find out some of them are more qualified than you to make
a comment.
And for the others who have drank the kool aide without any questions,
sorry.
K3 is superior in many ways to all the radios avaliable,  its not perfect,
there will never be one that suits all,  but for what I use it for its
pretty
close,  Only reason to bring up shortfalls is to make it the best there is,
As soon as I see a APF function and the pile up "mush" problems go
away,  It will be hard to make any more comments for what I use the
radio for.
For those who miss the APF and are missing contacts due to not having
one,  I have hung a Datong FL-2 on the K3,  it works best of all I have
tried so far,  (autek etc).   But the tuning is pretty sharp with small
knobs.  But it does work almost as well as the FT-1000D old original
APF.   But thats another subject in itself.  
Thanks again to Wayne for explaining what #2306 is hearing that 2,999
others dont.  :o)
73 Merv KH7C  (K9FD)






wayne burdick wrote:

> Merv Schweigert wrote:
>
>> Have noticed this on other bands but paid no particular attention,
>> but today was tuning 160 meters and every 5 khz there is a pop
>> or change in background receiver noise when tuning.
>
> Hi Merv,
>
> This is normal. The K3 has an incredibly low-noise analog/digital
> synthesizer. To achieve this performance, we have to use a fairly
> low-frequency PLL loop (~22 kHz). This translates into a little
> artifact in the VFO tuning range every 22 kHz, on average, across the
> ham bands. Nearly all other PLL-based rigs have such transitions at
> much wider spacing, because they use up-conversion to a VHF 1st IF and
> thus much higher synthesizer output frequencies. But this results in
> inferior performance, generally, and doesn't support narrow roofing
> filters. (For example, most rigs on the market have a roofing filter
> in the 4 to 15 kHz wide range, compared to as low as 200 Hz in the K3.
> Our down-conversion scheme, to an 8.215 MHz IF, is the reason we can
> do this.)
>
> The tuning artifact is only noticeable if a moderate to strong signal
> is in the passband as you tune across it. When you stop tuning, it's
> gone. And while you're tuning, we do a partial mute of the receiver
> (actually, we engage a low-threshold limiter for about 10 ms). This
> makes it barely noticeable in most cases, which is why, with nearly
> 3000 K3s shipped, you've never heard a description of it until now :)
>
> The actual spacing of the tuning artifacts varies on a per-band basis,
> being smaller on the lower bands. The reason for this is a bit
> complicated. We shoe-horn the reference signal for the PLL (i.e. the
> DDS, the source of fine-tuning steps) through a 2.5 kHz crystal filter
> to ensure there are no DDS spurs in the VCO output. 2.5 kHz is a lot
> narrower than 22 kHz. So we have to constantly adjust the PLL divider
> values (N and R dividers, to be precise) so that our DDS signal always
> stays within the crystal filter, yet allows the PLL to generate a wide
> enough frequency range to cover the segment of interest. We used a
> home-brew PC program to pre-calculate the optimal N and R divider
> values for the entire tuning range, and we store them in about 30 kb
> of the front panel flash memory chip. As you tune the VFO, we look up
> the table values.
>
> This works smoothly, but as you noted, you might hear a soft "blip"
> under just the right circumstances as you cross one of the transition
> points. It's a little reminder of what it takes to create a very
> quiet, high-dynamic-range RX.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> ---
>
> http://www.elecraft.com
>
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[w0mu]

Interesting information.

I guess I did not hear it on 160 as I did not have loud signals close to the
pll frequency.

I really don't understand the motivation of the so called non invested ($$$)
experts on the list.  The K3 won't get better if we do not provide feedback
on our own experiences.  Everyone uses THEIR radio differently so they may
experience situations others may not.

I am quite interested to see if and how the pile up mush issue will be
addressed.  Enough of us have seen it to warrant some kind of investigation.

W0MU


"A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may
never get over." Ben Franklin
-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Merv Schweigert
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 10:42 AM
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 5 KHZ dead spots

Thanks very much Wayne for the explanation . Its not really a problem as you
say. If tuning very fast you also hear it pop as you pass those points.
Majority of the time it is covered either with band noise or with signals.

You mentioned it being heard only if there was a moderate to strong signal
in the passband,  I hear it with no signals at all in the passband, usually
the band noise on 160 covers it up or QRN,  last nite was a very quiet nite
and I could hear it with no signals within 25 khz,  and those signals were
S2 at loudest.

It is not a problem,  just something I noticed and was curious about the
cause.

Proves a point also,  some of the experts on the list pull the trigger
without a target in site or without knowing what they are shooting at.  Old
proverb,  "you dont know what my radio sounds like unless you have worn the
headphones for a moon".  
Dont jump on the little pistols for bringing up problems or questions, you
may find out some of them are more qualified than you to make a comment.
And for the others who have drank the kool aide without any questions,
sorry.
K3 is superior in many ways to all the radios avaliable,  its not perfect,
there will never be one that suits all,  but for what I use it for its
pretty close,  Only reason to bring up shortfalls is to make it the best
there is, As soon as I see a APF function and the pile up "mush" problems go
away,  It will be hard to make any more comments for what I use the radio
for.
For those who miss the APF and are missing contacts due to not having one,
I have hung a Datong FL-2 on the K3,  it works best of all I have
tried so far,  (autek etc).   But the tuning is pretty sharp with small
knobs.  But it does work almost as well as the FT-1000D old original
APF.   But thats another subject in itself.  
Thanks again to Wayne for explaining what #2306 is hearing that 2,999 others
dont.  :o)
73 Merv KH7C  (K9FD)






wayne burdick wrote:

> Merv Schweigert wrote:
>
>> Have noticed this on other bands but paid no particular attention,
>> but today was tuning 160 meters and every 5 khz there is a pop or
>> change in background receiver noise when tuning.
>
> Hi Merv,
>
> This is normal. The K3 has an incredibly low-noise analog/digital
> synthesizer. To achieve this performance, we have to use a fairly
> low-frequency PLL loop (~22 kHz). This translates into a little
> artifact in the VFO tuning range every 22 kHz, on average, across the
> ham bands. Nearly all other PLL-based rigs have such transitions at
> much wider spacing, because they use up-conversion to a VHF 1st IF and
> thus much higher synthesizer output frequencies. But this results in
> inferior performance, generally, and doesn't support narrow roofing
> filters. (For example, most rigs on the market have a roofing filter
> in the 4 to 15 kHz wide range, compared to as low as 200 Hz in the K3.
> Our down-conversion scheme, to an 8.215 MHz IF, is the reason we can
> do this.)
>
> The tuning artifact is only noticeable if a moderate to strong signal
> is in the passband as you tune across it. When you stop tuning, it's
> gone. And while you're tuning, we do a partial mute of the receiver
> (actually, we engage a low-threshold limiter for about 10 ms). This
> makes it barely noticeable in most cases, which is why, with nearly
> 3000 K3s shipped, you've never heard a description of it until now :)
>
> The actual spacing of the tuning artifacts varies on a per-band basis,
> being smaller on the lower bands. The reason for this is a bit
> complicated. We shoe-horn the reference signal for the PLL (i.e. the
> DDS, the source of fine-tuning steps) through a 2.5 kHz crystal filter
> to ensure there are no DDS spurs in the VCO output. 2.5 kHz is a lot
> narrower than 22 kHz. So we have to constantly adjust the PLL divider
> values (N and R dividers, to be precise) so that our DDS signal always
> stays within the crystal filter, yet allows the PLL to generate a wide
> enough frequency range to cover the segment of interest. We used a
> home-brew PC program to pre-calculate the optimal N and R divider
> values for the entire tuning range, and we store them in about 30 kb
> of the front panel flash memory chip. As you tune the VFO, we look up
> the table values.
>
> This works smoothly, but as you noted, you might hear a soft "blip"
> under just the right circumstances as you cross one of the transition
> points. It's a little reminder of what it takes to create a very
> quiet, high-dynamic-range RX.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> ---
>
> http://www.elecraft.com
>
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html