K3 DSP processor speed
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I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are
10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why not? Bob K7VO ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email]
Robert Sands
K7VO Olympia, WA |
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Maybe because Elecraft does not want to produce a rig that sells for
$14,500? Tom - W4BQF -----Original Message----- From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert Sands Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:32 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are 10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why not? Bob K7VO ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Robert Sands
According to the review in the November RSGB magazine (RadCom) it hosts
three 32 bit floating point DSP units. Two clocked at 393MHz for the receivers and the transmitter an one clocked at 370MHz for the spectrum scope. Also two 24-bit DAC's. I never use NR so essentially I don't really care if 2400 MFLOP devices make a difference. Occam's razor springs to mind "It is vain to do with more what can be done with fewer". Possibly less powerful DSP engines are becoming obsolete, maintenance only devices. Regards, Mike VP8NO On 09/11/2015 18:32, Robert Sands wrote: > I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are > 10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not > that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is > consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why > not? > Bob > K7VO ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: K3 DSP processor speed
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In reply to this post by Chester Alderman
Sound like a case of " My you know what is bigger than your you know what "
Cause mine cost twice as much as yours! Nah nan nanna naw nah! (((((73))))) Milverton / W9MMS From: Chester Alderman <[hidden email]> To: 'Robert Sands' <[hidden email]>; [hidden email] Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:55 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed Maybe because Elecraft does not want to produce a rig that sells for $14,500? Tom - W4BQF -----Original Message----- From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert Sands Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:32 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are 10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why not? Bob K7VO ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Mike Harris-9
It reminds me of my computer overclocking days when bragging rights went
to the guy who could run the processor at the highest clock without roasting throwing BSOD's or cooking the silicon. It's analogous to today's PC gamers who overclock video cards to get the very last frame per second on such and such game. Of course they can't actually SEE and increase in frame rate above about 30 frames per second. They need software to tell them they are getting 110 frames per second. Some people grow up faster than others. On 11/9/2015 5:04 PM, Mike Harris wrote: > According to the review in the November RSGB magazine (RadCom) it > hosts three 32 bit floating point DSP units. Two clocked at 393MHz for > the receivers and the transmitter an one clocked at 370MHz for the > spectrum scope. Also two 24-bit DAC's. > > I never use NR so essentially I don't really care if 2400 MFLOP > devices make a difference. > > Occam's razor springs to mind "It is vain to do with more what can be > done with fewer". Possibly less powerful DSP engines are becoming > obsolete, maintenance only devices. > > Regards, > > Mike VP8NO > -- R. Kevin Stover AC0H ARRL FISTS #11993 SKCC #215 NAQCC #3441 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Some how I just am not all that impressed by those "fantastic" DSP
numbers. What does impress me is the absolute quality of the received signals presented to my ears by the K3. In about 55 years, my K3 is the most satisfying receiver I have ever used - and I have had most of them along the way. Fed to my outboard speakers, it sure makes for some super arm chair rag chews. All I have to do to prove same, is to switch to one of my other rigs. Then get on 75 meters at 7:30 PM and have some group move in right beside you. With the K3, a twist of a knob - and they are no longer beating my ears back - with one of my other rigs - well, not so easy on the ears. Yeah!!! Pass the Kool Aide! Bill W2BLC K3-Line ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Robert Sands
Bob:
There are many many reasons why this is an apples to watermelon comparison. Too many for discussion here. However two thoughts. In general the faster the processor the 'more' chances of producing RFI. It could be Wayne and the boys kept the processor speed low to reduce noise. Also in CMOS processors the current drain goes up proportional to the square of clock frequency. Simply faster processors take more power and with power comes the need for fans and heatsinks. That's from the physical side. However the application of more filters could possibly reduce noise from the software side but this is far from a simple tradeoff. Finally even if were a push between the K3 and 7851 have you ever heard of anyone bragging about their service? 73 Fred, AE6QL -----Original Message----- From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert Sands Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 1:32 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are 10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why not? Bob K7VO ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Bill-3
Guys,
Legit question. I am not surprised to see the "type" of answers given so far. They were drowning in Kool Aide. Jim W6AIM P.S. My ears say the NR is only average for the K3. I was running my TS-480 when the K3 was in the shop, and I was impressed with the superior NR of the low cost Kenwood TS-480 . -----Original Message----- From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:34 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed Some how I just am not all that impressed by those "fantastic" DSP numbers. What does impress me is the absolute quality of the received signals presented to my ears by the K3. In about 55 years, my K3 is the most satisfying receiver I have ever used - and I have had most of them along the way. Fed to my outboard speakers, it sure makes for some super arm chair rag chews. All I have to do to prove same, is to switch to one of my other rigs. Then get on 75 meters at 7:30 PM and have some group move in right beside you. With the K3, a twist of a knob - and they are no longer beating my ears back - with one of my other rigs - well, not so easy on the ears. Yeah!!! Pass the Kool Aide! Bill W2BLC K3-Line ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Fred Townsend-2
Kenwood (even the "cheap" TS-480) has superior NR. Even with just two
different, fixed, settings. Jim W6AIM -----Original Message----- From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Fred Townsend Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:46 PM To: 'Robert Sands'; [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed Bob: There are many many reasons why this is an apples to watermelon comparison. Too many for discussion here. However two thoughts. In general the faster the processor the 'more' chances of producing RFI. It could be Wayne and the boys kept the processor speed low to reduce noise. Also in CMOS processors the current drain goes up proportional to the square of clock frequency. Simply faster processors take more power and with power comes the need for fans and heatsinks. That's from the physical side. However the application of more filters could possibly reduce noise from the software side but this is far from a simple tradeoff. Finally even if were a push between the K3 and 7851 have you ever heard of anyone bragging about their service? 73 Fred, AE6QL -----Original Message----- From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert Sands Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 1:32 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are 10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why not? Bob K7VO ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Fred Townsend-2
Fred,
You are pulling what I call a "boogie man" ref the RFI. It gets addressed at the design stage. Your fans and heatsink comments are also not valid. Power is NOT dissipated in an evenly distributed manner. Again, it is an issue addressed at the design stage. You comment about service is valid, but, the goal is to never need the service. I have had no issues with the Kenwood service, my TS-480 just works. OTOH, I put the TS-480 back into service when my K3 was sent back to the factory. Jim W6AIM . -----Original Message----- From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Fred Townsend Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:46 PM To: 'Robert Sands'; [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed Bob: There are many many reasons why this is an apples to watermelon comparison. Too many for discussion here. However two thoughts. In general the faster the processor the 'more' chances of producing RFI. It could be Wayne and the boys kept the processor speed low to reduce noise. Also in CMOS processors the current drain goes up proportional to the square of clock frequency. Simply faster processors take more power and with power comes the need for fans and heatsinks. That's from the physical side. However the application of more filters could possibly reduce noise from the software side but this is far from a simple tradeoff. Finally even if were a push between the K3 and 7851 have you ever heard of anyone bragging about their service? 73 Fred, AE6QL -----Original Message----- From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert Sands Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 1:32 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are 10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why not? Bob K7VO ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Jim Bolit
The K3's DSP code is written in very efficient assembly language. It executes quickly, because it doesn't need the lengthy library-routine calls typical of the C or C++ code written for GHz-clock DSPs. The code is also extremely compact.
The crystal oscillator frequency is not a direct indicator of clock speed. An on-chip PLL multiples it to a much higher frequency. And again, efficient DSP code written for 48-kHz IF/12-kHz AF sample rates doesn't require a lot of time to execute. This same philosophy applies to the K3's microcontroller. One result is that a K3 draws far less current in receive mode than most desktop transceivers. The K3's NR has a lot of flexibility (with 32 settings), and some experimentation is required for best results. 73, Wayne N6KR ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Wayne,
Thanks for the unedited answer with no bias. Jim W6AIM . -----Original Message----- From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 6:46 PM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed The K3's DSP code is written in very efficient assembly language. It executes quickly, because it doesn't need the lengthy library-routine calls typical of the C or C++ code written for GHz-clock DSPs. The code is also extremely compact. The crystal oscillator frequency is not a direct indicator of clock speed. An on-chip PLL multiples it to a much higher frequency. And again, efficient DSP code written for 48-kHz IF/12-kHz AF sample rates doesn't require a lot of time to execute. This same philosophy applies to the K3's microcontroller. One result is that a K3 draws far less current in receive mode than most desktop transceivers. The K3's NR has a lot of flexibility (with 32 settings), and some experimentation is required for best results. 73, Wayne N6KR ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by wayne burdick
The IC-7851 consumes *200 Watts in RECEIVE mode!*
The K3.....About 12 watts. On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 9:46 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote: > The K3's DSP code is written in very efficient assembly language. It > executes quickly, because it doesn't need the lengthy library-routine calls > typical of the C or C++ code written for GHz-clock DSPs. The code is also > extremely compact. > > The crystal oscillator frequency is not a direct indicator of clock speed. > An on-chip PLL multiples it to a much higher frequency. And again, > efficient DSP code written for 48-kHz IF/12-kHz AF sample rates doesn't > require a lot of time to execute. > > This same philosophy applies to the K3's microcontroller. One result is > that a K3 draws far less current in receive mode than most desktop > transceivers. > > The K3's NR has a lot of flexibility (with 32 settings), and some > experimentation is required for best results. > > 73, > Wayne > N6KR > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Steve Ellington wrote:
> The IC-7851 consumes *200 Watts in RECEIVE mode!* So it can dampen shaking due to earthquakes and nearby teen house parties. > The K3.....About 12 watts. So you can run it from a solar panel after the aforementioned disasters. Wayne N6KR ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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While I appreciate the input from Wayne on the K3's programming
architecture (as well as the facts on the power consumption characteristics), the reality is that many of us have identified other rigs that have implemented NR in a way that produces results that are much more satisfactory. Comments from those that don't seem to have a use-case for NR aren't really applicable to this particular topic, either. Personally, I find the NR capabilities of the KX3 to be among the best and most flexible that I've ever experienced, but also find the K3's capabilities to be fairly anemic in comparison. I would love to see the KX3's approach implemented in the K3 - that would make for a VERY nice upgrade, IMO. On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote: > Steve Ellington wrote: > > > > The IC-7851 consumes *200 Watts in RECEIVE mode!* > > So it can dampen shaking due to earthquakes and nearby teen house parties. > > > > The K3.....About 12 watts. > > So you can run it from a solar panel after the aforementioned disasters. > > Wayne > N6KR > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] > -- Owner, worldwidedx.com AE6LX, Amateur Radio AAR9GA, Army MARS ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by wayne burdick
My DSP works great, it only took me several years of trying to get it to where it does what I need it to do.
Yeah, I'm pretty quick at figuring the black arts out eh? 73 Gary -----Original Message----- From: "Wayne Burdick" <[hidden email]> Sent: 10/11/2015 1:10 PM To: "Steve Ellington" <[hidden email]> Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed Steve Ellington wrote: > The IC-7851 consumes *200 Watts in RECEIVE mode!* So it can dampen shaking due to earthquakes and nearby teen house parties. > The K3.....About 12 watts. So you can run it from a solar panel after the aforementioned disasters. Wayne N6KR ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Jim Bolit
Jim,
Here's a non-KookAid question for you. Just like in school.. Show your work. You say that radio <insert make/model/version here> has better <insert feature here> than the K3/K3S with latest hardware/firmware. Please provide the data upon which you base this. What you hear /think you hear is not valid data because operator skill comes into play. I'm no expert but have played with the K3S long enough to know the power of it's NR is in finding the balance of settings to pull the desired signal out of the noise. Any system that only has a button for NR and lacks granular control of the parameters can't possibly pull signals out under all circumstances when compared to a system that allows for granular control. Opinions aside.. please provide the data upon which your claims are based. Claims without data are just opinion based on several factors; many of which are out of the operators control and change over time. No KoolAid, just facts. I don't know that the K3S is better. On paper a receiver system is dealing with component noise, board noise, power noise, dynamic range, overhead, sensitivity, gain..etc.. On my K3S when digging out signals I'm playing with RF gain, Roofing filters, IF DSP Filtering, AGC Slope, AGC Threshold, AGC Time, and finally NR DSP algorithm (of which the K3S has LOTS). I have 2 main NR settings: One when I expect to have strong local signals (e.g... contests) and one for normal use. When chasing weak signal DX I'll play with settings to see what I can do. You're lucky to have never had to send your Kenwood radio in for repair. You typically end up sending it to a third party repair shop with the hopes they know what they are doing and do more good than harm. Jerry Moore CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324 http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and Patriotic. -----Original Message----- From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of jim Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 9:14 PM To: 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed Kenwood (even the "cheap" TS-480) has superior NR. Even with just two different, fixed, settings. Jim W6AIM <cut> ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by wayne burdick
Watch it Wayne, you almost made me do the proverbial spew on the keyboard with
that one HI HI!! OTOH, a ham friend of mine a long time ago briefly lived in a trailer park while he was going through some marital difficulties. He had his Swan 350 set up there. A next trailer neighbor of his liked to listen to a rock FM station at high volume fairly early in the morning. My friend told me that he'd noticed a "swish" from the neighbor's stereo on a certain frequency when tuning across 15M. One morning he got tired of the neighbor's concert, turned on the Swan, moved down the band a ways and loaded it "full tilt", carefully zero beat the suspect frequency, keyed the mic, and yelled "bleaah" or some such into it. (He claimed he could hear himself coming through the neighbor's stereo.) The rock station volume immediately went down and he never heard it turned back up the rest of the time he lived there. Maybe Elecraft needs to do some research to see if there are some frequencies where the KPA500 would be effective in this way against nearby teen house parties ;-) However, I doubt it would be effective against earthquakes though.... 73, Al On Mon November 9 2015 9:09:24 pm Wayne Burdick wrote: > Steve Ellington wrote: > > The IC-7851 consumes *200 Watts in RECEIVE mode!* > > So it can dampen shaking due to earthquakes and nearby teen house parties. > > > The K3.....About 12 watts. > > So you can run it from a solar panel after the aforementioned disasters. > > Wayne > N6KR > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by ae4pb
Jer,
Perceived audio is just that. Perception. And to the individual, it is *everything*. Op skill does come into play, no doubt. Types of noise come into play, no doubt. The fact there are only two settings on the Kenwood does limit it's ability to "work" under different noise condx. The K3 is an excellent radio. I bought one after using a friends at Sweepstakes CW two years ago. The only time I looked back was when I had to hook up the Kenwood TS-480 and my perception is the NR was superior. BTW, I sent the K3 back because of hiss in the audio with the audio gain fully CCW. Elecraft bent over backwards to find the issue, and advised they compared to current production rigs, using an audio spectrum analyzer. I also sent the headphones to them in the event the complex impedance of them would induce this hiss. Yes, Elecraft service is second to none. The radio still has hiss, so I put a resistive pad inline and the hiss is gone and ride the audio at 12 noon. Jim W6AIM P.S. I do not subscribe to $75.00 per foot speaker cable ;>) . -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Moore [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:20 AM To: 'jim'; 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; [hidden email] Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed Jim, Here's a non-KookAid question for you. Just like in school.. Show your work. You say that radio <insert make/model/version here> has better <insert feature here> than the K3/K3S with latest hardware/firmware. Please provide the data upon which you base this. What you hear /think you hear is not valid data because operator skill comes into play. I'm no expert but have played with the K3S long enough to know the power of it's NR is in finding the balance of settings to pull the desired signal out of the noise. Any system that only has a button for NR and lacks granular control of the parameters can't possibly pull signals out under all circumstances when compared to a system that allows for granular control. Opinions aside.. please provide the data upon which your claims are based. Claims without data are just opinion based on several factors; many of which are out of the operators control and change over time. No KoolAid, just facts. I don't know that the K3S is better. On paper a receiver system is dealing with component noise, board noise, power noise, dynamic range, overhead, sensitivity, gain..etc.. On my K3S when digging out signals I'm playing with RF gain, Roofing filters, IF DSP Filtering, AGC Slope, AGC Threshold, AGC Time, and finally NR DSP algorithm (of which the K3S has LOTS). I have 2 main NR settings: One when I expect to have strong local signals (e.g... contests) and one for normal use. When chasing weak signal DX I'll play with settings to see what I can do. You're lucky to have never had to send your Kenwood radio in for repair. You typically end up sending it to a third party repair shop with the hopes they know what they are doing and do more good than harm. Jerry Moore CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324 http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and Patriotic. -----Original Message----- From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of jim Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 9:14 PM To: 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed Kenwood (even the "cheap" TS-480) has superior NR. Even with just two different, fixed, settings. Jim W6AIM <cut> ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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I'll make a few comments with information you likely already know and drop
the thread. 1. audio hiss is common with the largest contributor being particles traversing the substrate layers of semi-conductors (you get it in tubes as well, just not as much). The design keys being S/N ratio, dynamic range, and gain. Any solution to remove hiss without consideration to S/N ratio and gain results in loss of signal level. Hard to complain about weak signal work if the system is degraded by mods/adjustments. 2. By default the K3S receive audio isn't optimal for everyone's ears and dynamic range. That's likely why there's an audio equalizer for both receive and transmit audio. If you've not adjusted that to optimize the audio to your tastes then you're missing out. I have different hearing issues in each ear. My wish is to be able to adjust left /right audio independently with both a single receiver and with the sub installed. I currently run with AFX on full delay. I usually hear signals on my right ear not my left unless I adjust the equalizer. My right ear being more sensitive than my left. Show me an audio circuit with no hiss and I'll show you missing signal level. For most audio applications this doesn't matter because there's ample signal. When working weak signal it's all about balance and working the edges. If you operate with all knobs cranked to the right I'd humbly and respectfully suggest that you review your operating procedures regardless of the radio you use. Kenwood makes a good radio, however, I've NEVER had good luck with service from them or Yaesu. Based on my experiences in forums, reflector, and talking with other hams; Elecraft is rabidly good about support. Jerry Moore CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324 http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and Patriotic. -----Original Message----- From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of jim Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 11:23 AM To: [hidden email]; 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed Jer, Perceived audio is just that. Perception. And to the individual, it is *everything*. Op skill does come into play, no doubt. Types of noise come into play, no doubt. The fact there are only two settings on the Kenwood does limit it's ability to "work" under different noise condx. The K3 is an excellent radio. I bought one after using a friends at Sweepstakes CW two years ago. The only time I looked back was when I had to hook up the Kenwood TS-480 and my perception is the NR was superior. BTW, I sent the K3 back because of hiss in the audio with the audio gain fully CCW. Elecraft bent over backwards to find the issue, and advised they compared to current production rigs, using an audio spectrum analyzer. I also sent the headphones to them in the event the complex impedance of them would induce this hiss. Yes, Elecraft service is second to none. The radio still has hiss, so I put a resistive pad inline and the hiss is gone and ride the audio at 12 noon. Jim W6AIM P.S. I do not subscribe to $75.00 per foot speaker cable ;>) . -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Moore [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email] Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:20 AM To: 'jim'; 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; [hidden email] Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed Jim, Here's a non-KookAid question for you. Just like in school.. Show your work. You say that radio <insert make/model/version here> has better <insert feature here> than the K3/K3S with latest hardware/firmware. Please provide the data upon which you base this. What you hear /think you hear is not valid data because operator skill comes into play. I'm no expert but have played with the K3S long enough to know the power of it's NR is in finding the balance of settings to pull the desired signal out of the noise. Any system that only has a button for NR and lacks granular control of the parameters can't possibly pull signals out under all circumstances when compared to a system that allows for granular control. Opinions aside.. please provide the data upon which your claims are based. Claims without data are just opinion based on several factors; many of which are out of the operators control and change over time. No KoolAid, just facts. I don't know that the K3S is better. On paper a receiver system is dealing with component noise, board noise, power noise, dynamic range, overhead, sensitivity, gain..etc.. On my K3S when digging out signals I'm playing with RF gain, Roofing filters, IF DSP Filtering, AGC Slope, AGC Threshold, AGC Time, and finally NR DSP algorithm (of which the K3S has LOTS). I have 2 main NR settings: One when I expect to have strong local signals (e.g... contests) and one for normal use. When chasing weak signal DX I'll play with settings to see what I can do. You're lucky to have never had to send your Kenwood radio in for repair. You typically end up sending it to a third party repair shop with the hopes they know what they are doing and do more good than harm. Jerry Moore CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324 http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and Patriotic. -----Original Message----- From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of jim Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 9:14 PM To: 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed Kenwood (even the "cheap" TS-480) has superior NR. Even with just two different, fixed, settings. Jim W6AIM <cut> ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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