[K3] Enhancement request - audio mixing

[Richard Ferch]

I'd like to request an enhancement of the current audio mixing
capabilities with two receivers, to allow instant switching from the
normal one radio in each ear to either main RX in both ears, or sub RX
in both ears. I understand that these are possible with direct DSP
commands, but as far as I am aware these DSP commands are not available
from switch macros. I don't believe I am the first to make such a
request, but I am adding my voice to those who would appreciate such an
enhancement.

When listening to both receivers, there are often occasions when I would
like to quickly and temporarily switch to hearing only one of them.
Currently I can use the AF balance control to effectively mute one of
the receivers, but I would prefer an action that I can perform or
restore with a single button push on the radio or key press in software,
rather than having to rotate a knob through almost 180 degrees
(especially that particular knob, which I find a bit difficult to
operate quickly). It would also be helpful to have the chosen signal in
both ears in these situations, instead of in only one ear.

One way to do this would be to add two options to CONFIG:L-MIX-R, namely
the options A_A and B_B, in addition to the existing set (A_B, A_AB,
AB_B and AB_AB). This would make it possible using macro commands (e.g.
MN111;MPxxx;MN255 where xxx depends on the mixing option chosen) to
control audio mixing either from the radio's front panel or from
software. In fact, it might be even simpler than this: there are already
6 options for L-MIX-R, but the last two (MP004 and MP005) are simply
duplicates of the first two; it appears from here as if all that would
be needed would be to change option 4 to A_A and option 5 to B_B. Of
course, what looks simple from the outside might be anything but... !

73,
Rich VE3KI
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[David Gilbert]

I would also appreciate this capability.  I understand Elecraft's
reluctance to expose the DSP code to potential corruption from an
incorrect macro, but not being able to change some of those parameters
(audio mixing, AGC) on the fly with one button macros is a significant
limitation.

73,
Dave   AB7E



On 11/10/2010 6:56 PM, Richard Ferch wrote:

> I'd like to request an enhancement of the current audio mixing
> capabilities with two receivers, to allow instant switching from the
> normal one radio in each ear to either main RX in both ears, or sub RX
> in both ears. I understand that these are possible with direct DSP
> commands, but as far as I am aware these DSP commands are not available
> from switch macros. I don't believe I am the first to make such a
> request, but I am adding my voice to those who would appreciate such an
> enhancement.
>
> When listening to both receivers, there are often occasions when I would
> like to quickly and temporarily switch to hearing only one of them.
> Currently I can use the AF balance control to effectively mute one of
> the receivers, but I would prefer an action that I can perform or
> restore with a single button push on the radio or key press in software,
> rather than having to rotate a knob through almost 180 degrees
> (especially that particular knob, which I find a bit difficult to
> operate quickly). It would also be helpful to have the chosen signal in
> both ears in these situations, instead of in only one ear.
>
> One way to do this would be to add two options to CONFIG:L-MIX-R, namely
> the options A_A and B_B, in addition to the existing set (A_B, A_AB,
> AB_B and AB_AB). This would make it possible using macro commands (e.g.
> MN111;MPxxx;MN255 where xxx depends on the mixing option chosen) to
> control audio mixing either from the radio's front panel or from
> software. In fact, it might be even simpler than this: there are already
> 6 options for L-MIX-R, but the last two (MP004 and MP005) are simply
> duplicates of the first two; it appears from here as if all that would
> be needed would be to change option 4 to A_A and option 5 to B_B. Of
> course, what looks simple from the outside might be anything but... !
>
> 73,
> Rich VE3KI
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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>

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[Barry N1EU]

I have requested this several times over the past 2 years.  It's a matter of priorities but am hopeful we might see it soon.

73, Barry N1EU

David Gilbert wrote

I would also appreciate this capability.  I understand Elecraft's
reluctance to expose the DSP code to potential corruption from an
incorrect macro, but not being able to change some of those parameters
(audio mixing, AGC) on the fly with one button macros is a significant
limitation.

73,
Dave   AB7E



On 11/10/2010 6:56 PM, Richard Ferch wrote:
> I'd like to request an enhancement of the current audio mixing
> capabilities with two receivers, to allow instant switching from the
> normal one radio in each ear to either main RX in both ears, or sub RX
> in both ears. I understand that these are possible with direct DSP
> commands, but as far as I am aware these DSP commands are not available
> from switch macros. I don't believe I am the first to make such a
> request, but I am adding my voice to those who would appreciate such an
> enhancement.
>
> When listening to both receivers, there are often occasions when I would
> like to quickly and temporarily switch to hearing only one of them.
> Currently I can use the AF balance control to effectively mute one of
> the receivers, but I would prefer an action that I can perform or
> restore with a single button push on the radio or key press in software,
> rather than having to rotate a knob through almost 180 degrees
> (especially that particular knob, which I find a bit difficult to
> operate quickly). It would also be helpful to have the chosen signal in
> both ears in these situations, instead of in only one ear.
>
> One way to do this would be to add two options to CONFIG:L-MIX-R, namely
> the options A_A and B_B, in addition to the existing set (A_B, A_AB,
> AB_B and AB_AB). This would make it possible using macro commands (e.g.
> MN111;MPxxx;MN255 where xxx depends on the mixing option chosen) to
> control audio mixing either from the radio's front panel or from
> software. In fact, it might be even simpler than this: there are already
> 6 options for L-MIX-R, but the last two (MP004 and MP005) are simply
> duplicates of the first two; it appears from here as if all that would
> be needed would be to change option 4 to A_A and option 5 to B_B. Of
> course, what looks simple from the outside might be anything but... !
>
> 73,
> Rich VE3KI
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[e-mail]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
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[DaveL G3TJP]

As Richard's message seems to have disappeared under a pile of other posts,
I would add my voice on behalf of a friend who would dearly love to be able
to listen to his 2nd rx in both ears.

 

I would guess that it wouldn't be that hard to implement, judging from the
other audio options that have been implemented in firmware.

 

Love to have a 'yea', 'nay', 'maybe', 'on the list' or 'never' from Eric or
Wayne.

 

73  DaveL  G3TJP

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[K2QI]

You can listen to the subrx in both ears. There is an audio mixing function that allows you to pipe sub output to both channels.

James K2QI
------Original Message------
From: David Lankshear
Sender: [hidden email]
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Enhancement request - audio mixing
Sent: Nov 11, 2010 18:10

As Richard's message seems to have disappeared under a pile of other posts,
I would add my voice on behalf of a friend who would dearly love to be able
to listen to his 2nd rx in both ears.

 

I would guess that it wouldn't be that hard to implement, judging from the
other audio options that have been implemented in firmware.

 

Love to have a 'yea', 'nay', 'maybe', 'on the list' or 'never' from Eric or
Wayne.

 

73  DaveL  G3TJP

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[Barry N1EU]

K2QI wrote

You can listen to the subrx in both ears. There is an audio mixing function that allows you to pipe sub output to both channels.

It is not currently possible to listen to only subrx audio in both channels via the L-MIX-R Config setting

Barry N1EU

[K6KV Gary]

        I've been paying close attention to this thread, having purchased
the K3 sub-receiver with the intent of using it next Field Day with my two
"very-orthogonal" 40M antennas.  My question is, has it been thought through
how the capability of having two receivers and two antennas works best in a
contest?  I sense from this thread that it is distracting to not be able to
hear only the chosen antenna in both ears.  It makes me wonder, could a
different optional mode for the K3's antenna switch help satisfy this wish?

        Ideas are cheap, and one that comes to mind is this:  When listening
to two antennas, a TAP of the ANT switch would feed what's in the left ear
into both ears.  If instead a slightly longer HOLD of the ANT switch was
made, what was heard in the right ear would then be fed into both ears, and
also select the XMIT antenna.  After the contest exchange, any further tap
of the ANT switch would revert the receivers to putting their separate
signals into each ear, maybe assigning the last active antenna to the left
ear.
        In use in a contest, then, if the desired station were strongest in
the right ear, the operator would press the ANT switch for one second, work
the station (hearing it in both ears), and finish with one tap of the ANT
switch to returned reception to its prior dual-receiver mode.    
        Note that such a mode might be implemented as an option.  If set to
that mode, then a K3 would enter that mode when the diversity mode was
invoked.    
        My post is not a "request", but rather a question that, given the
power of dual receivers and antenna switching, has the best way to use this
capability in a contest been worked out?  
Thanks
Gary K6KV



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Barry N1EU
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 3:51 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Enhancement request - audio mixing



K2QI wrote:
>
> You can listen to the subrx in both ears. There is an audio mixing
> function that allows you to pipe sub output to both channels.
>
It is not currently possible to listen to only subrx audio in both channels
via the L-MIX-R Config setting

Barry N1EU

--
View this message in context:
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Enhancement-request-audio-mixing-tp5
727304p5730723.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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[K2QI]

Barry,

I may have misread the original question, but if all one wants to do is listen to the subrx in both channels, then it is possible by adjusting the mix settings, then turning the AF gain down on the main.  That's what I do if I want a "stereo" type output from my sub receiver. This is helpful for those that have the bandpass filter installed only on the sub and they want to SWL with a second antenna connected to the aux input.

James K2QI
------Original Message------
From: Barry N1EU
Sender: [hidden email]
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Enhancement request - audio mixing
Sent: Nov 11, 2010 18:50



K2QI wrote:
>
> You can listen to the subrx in both ears. There is an audio mixing
> function that allows you to pipe sub output to both channels.
>
It is not currently possible to listen to only subrx audio in both channels
via the L-MIX-R Config setting

Barry N1EU

--
View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Enhancement-request-audio-mixing-tp5727304p5730723.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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[Barry N1EU]

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:16 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

I may have misread the original question, but if all one wants to do is
> listen to the subrx in both channels, then it is possible by adjusting the
> mix settings, then turning the AF gain down on the main.
>

We're talking about single program commands to control the audio source for
each channel.

Although what you suggest might sound like a work-around, it doesn't provide
a viable macro because you can't store the initial AF gain setting in order
to restore it later.  You shouldn't have to mess with AF gain - you just
want to switch the main and sub AF source in or out in any combination.

Barry N1EU
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[K2QI]

I now understand fully what's trying to be achieved. Sorry for the initial misunderstanding.  What you've described is something I too have desired, and would like to see it as an option one day.

73,
James K2QI
------Original Message------
From: Barry N1EU
Sender: [hidden email]
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Enhancement request - audio mixing
Sent: Nov 11, 2010 20:21

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:16 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

I may have misread the original question, but if all one wants to do is
> listen to the subrx in both channels, then it is possible by adjusting the
> mix settings, then turning the AF gain down on the main.
>

We're talking about single program commands to control the audio source for
each channel.

Although what you suggest might sound like a work-around, it doesn't provide
a viable macro because you can't store the initial AF gain setting in order
to restore it later.  You shouldn't have to mess with AF gain - you just
want to switch the main and sub AF source in or out in any combination.

Barry N1EU
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[Barry N1EU]

My interest in the audio mixing enhancement is limited to non-diversity use of the subrx, i.e. with main rx on vfoA and subrx on vfoB tuned to a different station.

The K3 already provides all the control I need for diversity reception.

Barry N1EU

K6KV Gary wrote

        I've been paying close attention to this thread, having purchased
the K3 sub-receiver with the intent of using it next Field Day with my two
"very-orthogonal" 40M antennas.  My question is, has it been thought through
how the capability of having two receivers and two antennas works best in a
contest?  I sense from this thread that it is distracting to not be able to
hear only the chosen antenna in both ears.  It makes me wonder, could a
different optional mode for the K3's antenna switch help satisfy this wish?

        Ideas are cheap, and one that comes to mind is this:  When listening
to two antennas, a TAP of the ANT switch would feed what's in the left ear
into both ears.  If instead a slightly longer HOLD of the ANT switch was
made, what was heard in the right ear would then be fed into both ears, and
also select the XMIT antenna.  After the contest exchange, any further tap
of the ANT switch would revert the receivers to putting their separate
signals into each ear, maybe assigning the last active antenna to the left
ear.
        In use in a contest, then, if the desired station were strongest in
the right ear, the operator would press the ANT switch for one second, work
the station (hearing it in both ears), and finish with one tap of the ANT
switch to returned reception to its prior dual-receiver mode.    
        Note that such a mode might be implemented as an option.  If set to
that mode, then a K3 would enter that mode when the diversity mode was
invoked.    
        My post is not a "request", but rather a question that, given the
power of dual receivers and antenna switching, has the best way to use this
capability in a contest been worked out?  
Thanks
Gary K6KV

[Guy, K2AV]

This reply is not speculation.

We used orthogonal antennas and dual RX K3's in diversity mode at N4A
in the IOTA on Core Banks NC this summer.   It worked very well, and
we had the high North America island expedition score for LP, beating
all but one of the North America HP scores.  A pair of three band
inverted vees running NW/SE and NE/SW fed with 450 line feed and tuned
via a 4:1 balun and the K3 antenna tuners.

What happens is that with both RX on that you do not get the nature of
signal separation you are expecting. You get phasing separation
because the antennas will decode any polarization off pure vertical
and pure horizontal into the same kind of separation you have
listening to a conversation in a crowded room. Signals not low angle
frequently came in on a rotating polarization, moving back and forth
from one ear to the other.  What was quickly clear was that if we
turned off the SubRX, the moving back and forth is converted into
rapid deep QSB that defeats copy.  The LOUD stations tended more to be
in one ear or the other, but those are easy to work.  The WEAK signals
on 40m particularly, would be affected by this rotating polarity.  The
same rotation was heard on the band noise, some of the guys having a
hard time listening to this rotating background. I was constantly
cleanly copying signals that sounded like they were starting on a
fadeout but just rotated through my head to the other side instead.
One has to hear it to understand it.

The complexity you seem to be recommending was unneeded for our best
score ever.  We knew that to transmit, the predominant signals needed
to be in the LEFT ear.  The ANT button just toggled that for us.  We
used the config menu to label one ant "NEAST" and the other "NWEST" so
that came up on the display when we switched it. This was never a
confusion and it was used competently right off the bat by all the
operators.  You're transmitting to the signal in your left ear.  If
it's in the right, hit the ANT button.

If what's in the right ear is making it hard to hear, just hit the SUB
button.  Mixing the channels when doing diversity RX seems to me
anyway to just muddle it and reduce the benefits.

To use the K3 in the way described for N4A requires that the subrx is
set up to use the non-TX antenna of the ANT1 ANT2 pair. This of course
is not compatible with using AUX for diversity listening on RX only
antennas for 160 because that is not internally switched.  I have
solved that by getting the K3 back panel from Elecraft with the "ANT3"
BNC hole punched into it, and a miniplug to BNC cord, which I
shortened on the BNC end. I used this to bring out the "other" antenna
jack from KANT3 to the K3 back panel at ANT3.  Then to do this kind of
thing at FD or next year's IOTA just patch ANT3 to AUX RF and leave
the SubRX listening on AUX RF.

Having used this at N4A, I find NOT having it at home is like
something is missing, and I'm designing my station forward to take
advantage of it.

73, Guy.

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 6:39 PM, Gary Gordon <[hidden email]> wrote:

>        I've been paying close attention to this thread, having purchased
> the K3 sub-receiver with the intent of using it next Field Day with my two
> "very-orthogonal" 40M antennas.  My question is, has it been thought through
> how the capability of having two receivers and two antennas works best in a
> contest?  I sense from this thread that it is distracting to not be able to
> hear only the chosen antenna in both ears.  It makes me wonder, could a
> different optional mode for the K3's antenna switch help satisfy this wish?
>
>        Ideas are cheap, and one that comes to mind is this:  When listening
> to two antennas, a TAP of the ANT switch would feed what's in the left ear
> into both ears.  If instead a slightly longer HOLD of the ANT switch was
> made, what was heard in the right ear would then be fed into both ears, and
> also select the XMIT antenna.  After the contest exchange, any further tap
> of the ANT switch would revert the receivers to putting their separate
> signals into each ear, maybe assigning the last active antenna to the left
> ear.
>        In use in a contest, then, if the desired station were strongest in
> the right ear, the operator would press the ANT switch for one second, work
> the station (hearing it in both ears), and finish with one tap of the ANT
> switch to returned reception to its prior dual-receiver mode.
>        Note that such a mode might be implemented as an option.  If set to
> that mode, then a K3 would enter that mode when the diversity mode was
> invoked.
>        My post is not a "request", but rather a question that, given the
> power of dual receivers and antenna switching, has the best way to use this
> capability in a contest been worked out?
> Thanks
> Gary K6KV

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[K6KV Gary]

Thank you Guy for the best explanation I've ever read on how diversity
reception works in a contest-like environment.  I hope others found it as
enlightening as I did, and if you haven't done so already, that you'll share
it on some wider venue such as QST.    
73, Gary, K6KV
 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Guy Olinger
K2AV
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 7:13 PM
To: Gary Gordon
Cc: Barry N1EU; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Enhancement request - audio mixing

This reply is not speculation.

We used orthogonal antennas and dual RX K3's in diversity mode at N4A
in the IOTA on Core Banks NC this summer.   It worked very well, and
we had the high North America island expedition score for LP, beating
all but one of the North America HP scores.  A pair of three band
inverted vees running NW/SE and NE/SW fed with 450 line feed and tuned
via a 4:1 balun and the K3 antenna tuners.

What happens is that with both RX on that you do not get the nature of
signal separation you are expecting. You get phasing separation
because the antennas will decode any polarization off pure vertical
and pure horizontal into the same kind of separation you have
listening to a conversation in a crowded room. Signals not low angle
frequently came in on a rotating polarization, moving back and forth
from one ear to the other.  What was quickly clear was that if we
turned off the SubRX, the moving back and forth is converted into
rapid deep QSB that defeats copy.  The LOUD stations tended more to be
in one ear or the other, but those are easy to work.  The WEAK signals
on 40m particularly, would be affected by this rotating polarity.  The
same rotation was heard on the band noise, some of the guys having a
hard time listening to this rotating background. I was constantly
cleanly copying signals that sounded like they were starting on a
fadeout but just rotated through my head to the other side instead.
One has to hear it to understand it.

The complexity you seem to be recommending was unneeded for our best
score ever.  We knew that to transmit, the predominant signals needed
to be in the LEFT ear.  The ANT button just toggled that for us.  We
used the config menu to label one ant "NEAST" and the other "NWEST" so
that came up on the display when we switched it. This was never a
confusion and it was used competently right off the bat by all the
operators.  You're transmitting to the signal in your left ear.  If
it's in the right, hit the ANT button.

If what's in the right ear is making it hard to hear, just hit the SUB
button.  Mixing the channels when doing diversity RX seems to me
anyway to just muddle it and reduce the benefits.

To use the K3 in the way described for N4A requires that the subrx is
set up to use the non-TX antenna of the ANT1 ANT2 pair. This of course
is not compatible with using AUX for diversity listening on RX only
antennas for 160 because that is not internally switched.  I have
solved that by getting the K3 back panel from Elecraft with the "ANT3"
BNC hole punched into it, and a miniplug to BNC cord, which I
shortened on the BNC end. I used this to bring out the "other" antenna
jack from KANT3 to the K3 back panel at ANT3.  Then to do this kind of
thing at FD or next year's IOTA just patch ANT3 to AUX RF and leave
the SubRX listening on AUX RF.

Having used this at N4A, I find NOT having it at home is like
something is missing, and I'm designing my station forward to take
advantage of it.

73, Guy.

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 6:39 PM, Gary Gordon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>        I've been paying close attention to this thread, having purchased
> the K3 sub-receiver with the intent of using it next Field Day with my two
> "very-orthogonal" 40M antennas.  My question is, has it been thought
through
> how the capability of having two receivers and two antennas works best in
a
> contest?  I sense from this thread that it is distracting to not be able
to
> hear only the chosen antenna in both ears.  It makes me wonder, could a
> different optional mode for the K3's antenna switch help satisfy this
wish?
>
>        Ideas are cheap, and one that comes to mind is this:  When
listening
> to two antennas, a TAP of the ANT switch would feed what's in the left ear
> into both ears.  If instead a slightly longer HOLD of the ANT switch was
> made, what was heard in the right ear would then be fed into both ears,
and
> also select the XMIT antenna.  After the contest exchange, any further tap
> of the ANT switch would revert the receivers to putting their separate
> signals into each ear, maybe assigning the last active antenna to the left
> ear.
>        In use in a contest, then, if the desired station were strongest in
> the right ear, the operator would press the ANT switch for one second,
work
> the station (hearing it in both ears), and finish with one tap of the ANT
> switch to returned reception to its prior dual-receiver mode.
>        Note that such a mode might be implemented as an option.  If set to
> that mode, then a K3 would enter that mode when the diversity mode was
> invoked.
>        My post is not a "request", but rather a question that, given the
> power of dual receivers and antenna switching, has the best way to use
this
> capability in a contest been worked out?
> Thanks
> Gary K6KV

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[g0afh]

It's something that I would like too.

Using two antennae on 2m there are frequently occasions where I would
like to listen to the sub rx in both ears. For now, I achieve this with
external switching.

73
Ian
G0AFH

On 11/11/2010 23:10, David Lankshear wrote:

> As Richard's message seems to have disappeared under a pile of other posts,
> I would add my voice on behalf of a friend who would dearly love to be able
> to listen to his 2nd rx in both ears.
>
>
>
> I would guess that it wouldn't be that hard to implement, judging from the
> other audio options that have been implemented in firmware.
>
>
>
> Love to have a 'yea', 'nay', 'maybe', 'on the list' or 'never' from Eric or
> Wayne.
>
>
>
> 73  DaveL  G3TJP
>
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