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K3 - Ergonomics

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Bill-3

K3 - Ergonomics

In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "........too many
people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard
things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of
the list)."

What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is not
the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it particularly
challenging to use the panel controls or the menus - but, maybe that's
just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding? I go
for functionality of design - not eye candy.

The only thing I did to improve the controls on my K3 was to add a
TenTec tire to the main VFO knob - it increases the diameter slightly
and has a nicer feel to it than hard plastic.

Bill K-Line

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Johnny Siu

K3 - Ergonomics

Hello Bill,

As I mentioned in this forum in the past, Elecraft is excellent in production engineering. They use real good components for the critical parts but also use the real cheapest components for the rest. It is nothing wrong with Elecraft in terms of cost engineering and it is indeed a challenge to the design engineer as well.

As a result, you are now getting a tin box (yes, the advantage is light weight) but with excellent specifications in numbers. I never gave a high score for the ergonomic of elecraft radios. The screws in my K3 rust as well and this never happens in any of my other radios.

From time to time, I have been asked by local hams about my comments about elecraft radios. I always say that elecraft radios are excellent but users have to face a deep learning curve. I need to read the manuals from cover to cover as well as KE7X's books.

To conclude, I would consider Elecraft radios are really good but I have to accept less favourable ergonomics and relatively primitive enclosure and screws (yes, I know I can pay merely USD20 for stainless steel screws for an over $2.5k radio).

73

Johnny VR2XMC
K2, K3, KX3, KAT500, KPA500, P3

________________________________
寄件人︰ Bill W2BLC <[hidden email]>
收件人︰ [hidden email]
傳送日期︰ 2014年04月3日 (週四) 6:19 PM
主題︰ [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics

In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "........too many
people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard
things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of
the list)."

What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is not
the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it particularly
challenging to use the panel controls or the menus - but, maybe that's
just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding? I go
for functionality of design - not eye candy.

The only thing I did to improve the controls on my K3 was to add a
TenTec tire to the main VFO knob - it increases the diameter slightly
and has a nicer feel to it than hard plastic.

Bill K-Line
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W2RMS

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

I'm a new ham and an even newer K3 owner. For anyone who is function over form any day, like me - Elecraft's "learning curve" is the whole point!
If i had a radio for which i didn't even need to open the manual - i'd be bored with it in two days and probably wouldn't use it or care for it as much.
I did get the SS Hardware upgrade by the way (just in case, just because it was merely $20 after spending over $4K).

My .02c

Slava (Sal) W2RMS

On Apr 3, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Johnny Siu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello Bill,
>
> As I mentioned in this forum in the past, Elecraft is excellent in production engineering. They use real good components for the critical parts but also use the real cheapest components for the rest. It is nothing wrong with Elecraft in terms of cost engineering and it is indeed a challenge to the design engineer as well.
>
> As a result, you are now getting a tin box (yes, the advantage is light weight) but with excellent specifications in numbers. I never gave a high score for the ergonomic of elecraft radios. The screws in my K3 rust as well and this never happens in any of my other radios.
>
> From time to time, I have been asked by local hams about my comments about elecraft radios. I always say that elecraft radios are excellent but users have to face a deep learning curve. I need to read the manuals from cover to cover as well as KE7X's books.
>
> To conclude, I would consider Elecraft radios are really good but I have to accept less favourable ergonomics and relatively primitive enclosure and screws (yes, I know I can pay merely USD20 for stainless steel screws for an over $2.5k radio).
>
> 73
>
> Johnny VR2XMC
> K2, K3, KX3, KAT500, KPA500, P3
>
>
> ________________________________
> 寄件人︰ Bill W2BLC <[hidden email]>
> 收件人︰ [hidden email]
> 傳送日期︰ 2014年04月3日 (週四) 6:19 PM
> 主題︰ [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
>
>
> In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "........too many
> people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard
> things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of
> the list)."
>
> What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is not
> the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it particularly
> challenging to use the panel controls or the menus - but, maybe that's
> just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding? I go
> for functionality of design - not eye candy.
>
> The only thing I did to improve the controls on my K3 was to add a
> TenTec tire to the main VFO knob - it increases the diameter slightly
> and has a nicer feel to it than hard plastic.
>
> Bill K-Line
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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Kevin Stover

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by Bill-3

Sour grapes from guys who can't believe the K3 is the equal of or better
than their rig which they spent too much on (5 digits, anybody still
have their FTDX-9000's) to get the 100+ pretty lights and useless,
mostly unused buttons.

They can't knock the rig on it's performance, 7 years later, so they
bring up "ergonomics".

One word describes that...Weak.

On 4/3/2014 5:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote:
> In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "........too
> many people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally
> disregard things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at
> the bottom of the list)."

--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441

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Gary Gregory-2

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder somebody once told me!
Performance to me IS everything....eye candy has never helped in a pileup.

Just my nickels worth

Gary
Vk1ZZ
K3, KX3, KPA500-FT, KAT500-FT,P3.
On 03/04/2014 11:05 PM, "Kevin Stover" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sour grapes from guys who can't believe the K3 is the equal of or better
> than their rig which they spent too much on (5 digits, anybody still have
> their FTDX-9000's) to get the 100+ pretty lights and useless, mostly unused
> buttons.
>
> They can't knock the rig on it's performance, 7 years later, so they bring
> up "ergonomics".
>
> One word describes that...Weak.
>
> On 4/3/2014 5:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote:
>
>> In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "........too many
>> people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard
>> things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of the
>> list)."
>>
>
>
> --
> R. Kevin Stover
> AC0H
> ARRL
> FISTS #11993
> SKCC #215
> NAQCC #3441
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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>

Mike Harris-9

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

Good day,

This must be a fairly recent thing, wanting all front panels to be the
same except for the name. Over the years I've gone down the route of:
Heathkit RA1 RX + HB TX, National NCX5 tcvr, FT101, Racal kit whilst in
Antarctica, TS120V, Marconi and Eddystone equipment at the salt mine,
nothing common between the lot of them except that the knobs turn and
the switches switch. QRT 10 years. Returned in 2000 and built a K2 and
eventually progressed to a K3 so quite used to the Elecraft format.
However, I must say that I don't like the K3 soggy rubber buttons
compared to the nice tactile click of the K2's.

I thought that as big brained mammals we had the ability to learn and
adapt or have the past couple of million years been waisted. We
certainly seem to have evolved and discarded the "read the manual" gene,
or is that just a man thing.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 03/04/2014 10:13, Gary Gregory wrote:
> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder somebody once told me!
> Performance to me IS everything....eye candy has never helped in a pileup.
>
> Just my nickels worth
>
> Gary
> Vk1ZZ
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by Bill-3

> What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is
> not the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it
> particularly challenging to use the panel controls or the menus -
> but, maybe that's just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or
> plastic molding? I go for functionality of design - not eye candy.

The issue is not "lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding" ...
I've given up counting the number of times the radio has changed
bands when I meant to change modes or vice versa or the number of
times I've engaged RIT when I wanted to turn off the speaker, the
number of times I've reset VFO B when I wanted to engage split, or
the number of times I've linked VFOs when I wanted to turn on the
KRX-3. These are the problems with the limited number of tightly
packed, dual function controls and looking the same.

While I certainly appreciate the performance of the K3 - it is on
my operating bench whilst the MK V and FT-2000 gather dust in the
closet - having fewer dual function controls and band/mode controls
that are physically separated and very different in design *IS* a
major improvement in ergonomics. If I had but one wish it would
be that Elecraft would give up on the thought that every radio
must be capable of operating from a backpack on a small 12V battery
and would produce a real home station radio with 24 or 48 V finals
and a large front panel supporting separate band and mode buttons.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 4/3/2014 6:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote:

> In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "........too many
> people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard
> things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of
> the list)."
>
> What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is not
> the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it particularly
> challenging to use the panel controls or the menus - but, maybe that's
> just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding? I go
> for functionality of design - not eye candy.
>
> The only thing I did to improve the controls on my K3 was to add a
> TenTec tire to the main VFO knob - it increases the diameter slightly
> and has a nicer feel to it than hard plastic.
>
> Bill K-Line
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Johnny Siu

K3 - Ergonomics

Yes, Joe, it seems that they are gradually giving up the thought and eventually build the KX3 for backpacking. The NR in KX3 is even better than K3 to my ears.

I fully appreciate your experience and I experienced the same. As I mentioned before, operating K3 is demanding and like a well trained pilot flying his F22. Of course, like F22, K3 is a good performer.

73

Johnny VR2XMC

________________________________
寄件人︰ "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
收件人︰ [hidden email]
傳送日期︰ 2014年04月3日 (週四) 9:49 PM
主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics

> What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is
> not the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it
> particularly challenging to use the panel controls or the menus -
> but, maybe that's just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or
> plastic molding? I go for functionality of design - not eye candy.

The issue is not "lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding" ...
I've given up counting the number of times the radio has changed
bands when I meant to change modes or vice versa or the number of
times I've engaged RIT when I wanted to turn off the speaker, the
number of times I've reset VFO B when I wanted to engage split, or
the number of times I've linked VFOs when I wanted to turn on the
KRX-3. These are the problems with the limited number of tightly
packed, dual function controls and looking the same.

While I certainly appreciate the performance of the K3 - it is on
my operating bench whilst the MK V and FT-2000 gather dust in the
closet - having fewer dual function controls and band/mode controls
that are physically separated and very different in design *IS* a
major improvement in ergonomics. If I had but one wish it would
be that Elecraft would give up on the thought that every radio
must be capable of operating from a backpack on a small 12V battery
and would produce a real home station radio with 24 or 48 V finals
and a large front panel supporting separate band and mode buttons.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 4/3/2014 6:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote:

> In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "........too many
> people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard
> things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of
> the list)."
>
> What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is not
> the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it particularly
> challenging to use the panel controls or the menus - but, maybe that's
> just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding? I go
> for functionality of design - not eye candy.
>
> The only thing I did to improve the controls on my K3 was to add a
> TenTec tire to the main VFO knob - it increases the diameter slightly
> and has a nicer feel to it than hard plastic.
>
> Bill K-Line
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net/
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by Bill-3

I've been using Elecraft transceivers exclusively
for 15 years (K2, now K3 as primary base station),
so my recent personal experience is limited. I
have heard it said that Elecraft approach of fewer
buttons and knobs, with short presses and long
presses on the buttons, is less user-friendly than
having more buttons and knobs (the 50 lb FTdx-5000
appears to be festooned with knobs and buttons).
But beyond that I can't really comment: I'm happy
with the K3 ergonomics. I do get a bit confused by
my KX3 at times, though -- more by the differences
between it and my K3 than anything else :-)

73, Phil W7OX

On 4/3/14, 3:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote:
> In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was
> said, "........too many people jump on one
> number to rate (rank) equipment and totally
> disregard things like ergonomics (If they didn't
> the K3 would be at the bottom of the list)."
>
> What is so bad about how the K3 is designed
> (ergonomics)?

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Buddy Brannan

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

Tuning in in the middle, but for my part, I’d much rather have multifunction knobs and buttons than menus buried in menus which are, in turn, buried in menus. I like that most of the menus on the Elecraft rigs are set once and forget. This makes me happy. And, unlike some manufacturers, Elecraft actually gives two craps about accessibility for blind operators. As someone or another has said, everything is a compromise some way, and I think the choices Elecraft has made in UI have been good ones, given other design criteria.

I can’t speak about the K3 at all, sorry. I have a K2 though, and also a KX3, and think both are excellent. Both in performance and ergonomics.
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: (814) 860-3194 or (814) 431-0962

On Apr 3, 2014, at 11:05 AM, Phil Wheeler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've been using Elecraft transceivers exclusively for 15 years (K2, now K3 as primary base station), so my recent personal experience is limited. I have heard it said that Elecraft approach of fewer buttons and knobs, with short presses and long presses on the buttons, is less user-friendly than having more buttons and knobs (the 50 lb FTdx-5000 appears to be festooned with knobs and buttons). But beyond that I can't really comment: I'm happy with the K3 ergonomics. I do get a bit confused by my KX3 at times, though -- more by the differences between it and my K3 than anything else :-)
>
> 73, Phil W7OX
>
> On 4/3/14, 3:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote:
>> In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "........too many people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of the list)."
>>
>> What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)?
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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hf4me

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by Johnny Siu

My first Elecraft was a used K2 (that had serious problems). When I open the box, I was seriously disappointed with the looks of it. Hooking it up and listening along side my original 746, I heard a lot more stations on the K2 on my attic dipole than on my "real" outside antenna. I thought there was something wrong with my outside antenna. Long story short, I switched coax, meters, everything inline, and then antennas, everything and the K2 was SO much better. It was the radio, not the antenna. I was hooked.

I did return the K2 because it had problems, wouldn't transmit on most bands more than a few tenths of a watt, and no more than 4 watts on any band, and that was a 100w radio. Now, I am going to order a new K2. Well..., I discovered the K3 and ordered it. Back then it took 5? Months. That was the longest 5 months in my life. And I loved doing the build when it finally got here.

Performance is everything and I like the looks of my K3 now, not changing anything.

Learning curve? Not necessarily, it works just fine as it comes. If you want to "tweak" (in your own mind) some settings later, go ahead, but it is not really necessary. Yes I do make my own changes but it does work just like it comes.

73, Jim KG0KP

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gm3sek

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

>> In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "........too
many
>> people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally
>>disregard things like ergonomics
>> (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of
>> the list)."
>>

W4TV replied:
>
>The issue is not "lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding" ...

Correct. "Ergonomics" is not about good looks. Ergonomics is about the
way that equipment interacts with human operator.

And in ergonomics, the K3 does fall short of the competition. Outside of
this [Elecraft] list, the K3 does have a reputation for being cranky to
operate, requiring far too many button-pushes to do simple routine
operations, and for being unforgiving of mistakes.

Joe again:
>I've given up counting the number of times the radio has changed
>bands when I meant to change modes or vice versa or the number of
>times I've engaged RIT when I wanted to turn off the speaker, the
>number of times I've reset VFO B when I wanted to engage split, or
>the number of times I've linked VFOs when I wanted to turn on the
>KRX-3. These are the problems with the limited number of tightly
>packed, dual function controls and looking the same.
>

I agree with most of that, but not all of those operational problems are
due to the hardware. Many can be fixed - or at the very least,
considerably reduced - by firmware upgrades.

The *real* problem is that Elecraft has shown no interest in doing so.
The stream of improvements that once made the K3 so exciting has slowed
to a disappointing trickle, with too much still left undone.

>While I certainly appreciate the performance of the K3 - it is on
>my operating bench whilst the MK V and FT-2000 gather dust in the
>closet - having fewer dual function controls and band/mode controls
>that are physically separated and very different in design *IS* a
>major improvement in ergonomics. If I had but one wish it would
>be that Elecraft would give up on the thought that every radio
>must be capable of operating from a backpack on a small 12V battery

Yes to that! The K3 is my favorite radio ever... which is why I so hate
to see it being left with so many rough edges.

Elecraft have already said no to the next part:

>and would produce a real home station radio with 24 or 48 V finals
>and a large front panel supporting separate band and mode buttons.

- but that isn't the point. The point is the 8000 K3s that are still
"unfinished business".

73 from Ian GM3SEK

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Alan Bloom

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by Mike Harris-9

On 04/03/2014 05:44 AM, Mike Harris wrote:

> This must be a fairly recent thing, wanting all front panels to be the
> same except for the name.

I actually prefer a metal chassis to a plastic one. The K3 looks like
it was constructed rather than popped out of a mold.

But I guess I'm in the minority...

Alan N1AL
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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

"But I guess I'm in the minority...": Definitely
not here :-)

Phil W7OX

On 4/3/14, 9:34 AM, Alan Bloom wrote:

> On 04/03/2014 05:44 AM, Mike Harris wrote:
>
>> This must be a fairly recent thing, wanting all
>> front panels to be the
>> same except for the name.
>
> I actually prefer a metal chassis to a plastic
> one. The K3 looks like it was constructed
> rather than popped out of a mold.
>
> But I guess I'm in the minority...
>
> Alan N1AL

Scott Manthe-2

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by gm3sek

On 4/3/14 12:11 PM, Ian White wrote:
> The *real* problem is that Elecraft has shown no interest in doing so.
> The stream of improvements that once made the K3 so exciting has
> slowed to a disappointing trickle, with too much still left undone.
Like ergonomics, this feeling isn't universal. I'd much rather have a
few significant improvements, rather than a steady stream of upgrades.
Apparently some people substitute "excitement" for "frustration," which
was my response to the constant tweaks. In fact, I held off on buying a
K3 for years because the steady stream made the radio feel unfinished.
However, I will say that I do appreciate it when Elecraft fixes
something. That is what separates them from many of the other manufacturers.
> Yes to that! The K3 is my favorite radio ever... which is why I so hate
> to see it being left with so many rough edges.
> - but that isn't the point. The point is the 8000 K3s that are still
> "unfinished business".
>
>
> 73 from Ian GM3SEK
>
You could always buy an Icom or a Yaesu. :-) Even their defective
radios, like the 756Pro series or the FT2000, are finished business.
Their tweaks upgrades come with a new tag and more $$$$$$. (I know I'm
preaching to the choir here...) I suspect that because Elecraft actually
makes real improvements to the K Line, these will always be "unfinished"
to some degree, because someone, somewhere is always going to want a
change they don't get.

73,
Scott, N9AA
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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

On 4/3/2014 6:49 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> I've given up counting the number of times the radio has changed
> bands when I meant to change modes or vice versa or the number of
> times I've engaged RIT when I wanted to turn off the speaker, the
> number of times I've reset VFO B when I wanted to engage split, or
> the number of times I've linked VFOs when I wanted to turn on the
> KRX-3. These are the problems with the limited number of tightly
> packed, dual function controls and looking the same.

Gee, I've blamed an occasional wrong button push on my advancing years.

I put my K3s to a rather wide range of uses (contesting, DX chasing,
various digital modes) and with the sole exception of controls for the
2nd RX, I consider K3 ergonomics quite good. I appreciate that the
settings of most controls are memorized on a per band and per mode
basis, which means that I don't need to readjust things as often.
Indeed, I view the more compact size as a huge plus, because it takes up
less horizontal space on the operating desk. For the same reason, the
design of the P3 as a separate box allows me to put it on top of the K3
rather than consuming additional desk space. I also appreciate size and
weight when I want to carry it on an airplane! One of my neighbors,
W0YK, regularly takes two K3s to Aruba in his carry-on (in custom cases
by Rose)! I appreciate the reduced power consumption in my partially
solar powered ham shack.

One of the secrets of a successful small business is building enough
volume for a product to write off development costs, with something left
over to pay salaries, take an occasional vacation, and fund development
of new products. That requires identifying the market for their
products, understanding the needs of those users, and differentiating
their products from the competition. From where I sit, Eric and Wayne
have been very good at figuring out what products satisfy this
condition, and which are unlikely to do so. It also helps if you can
build one thing and sell it to everyone (like iPhone, iPad, etc.), so
the more things it does well help build volume.

73, Jim K9YC

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Wes (N7WS)

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Amen

On 4/3/2014 6:49 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
>> What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is
>> not the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it
>> particularly challenging to use the panel controls or the menus -
>> but, maybe that's just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or
>> plastic molding? I go for functionality of design - not eye candy.
>
> The issue is not "lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding" ...
> I've given up counting the number of times the radio has changed
> bands when I meant to change modes or vice versa or the number of
> times I've engaged RIT when I wanted to turn off the speaker, the
> number of times I've reset VFO B when I wanted to engage split, or
> the number of times I've linked VFOs when I wanted to turn on the
> KRX-3. These are the problems with the limited number of tightly
> packed, dual function controls and looking the same.
>
> While I certainly appreciate the performance of the K3 - it is on
> my operating bench whilst the MK V and FT-2000 gather dust in the
> closet - having fewer dual function controls and band/mode controls
> that are physically separated and very different in design *IS* a
> major improvement in ergonomics. If I had but one wish it would
> be that Elecraft would give up on the thought that every radio
> must be capable of operating from a backpack on a small 12V battery
> and would produce a real home station radio with 24 or 48 V finals
> and a large front panel supporting separate band and mode buttons.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 4/3/2014 6:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote:
>> In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "........too many
>> people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard
>> things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of
>> the list)."
>>
>> What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is not
>> the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it particularly
>> challenging to use the panel controls or the menus - but, maybe that's
>> just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding? I go
>> for functionality of design - not eye candy.
>>
>> The only thing I did to improve the controls on my K3 was to add a
>> TenTec tire to the main VFO knob - it increases the diameter slightly
>> and has a nicer feel to it than hard plastic.
>>
>> Bill K-Line

Phil Hystad-3

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

My 2-bits: |u> and |d>

OK, what if Elecraft took the K3 and did a major ergonomic redesign of the radio and called it the K3-Ergo. It could be twice as large, many single function buttons and dials and maybe even a more expanded multicolor LCD screen. But, assume SAME K3 functionality.

How much more would this cost, maybe $300, $500, or maybe $750 more?

As for me and my ham shack -- leave the ergonomics alone, they are fine by me. I like the K3 for what it is, not what people think it should be. When the Elecraft bunch come out with a new radio, I will consider its benefits and features but look-and-feel will not be on top of the list. But, then, I like the approach that Wayne and Eric and other other designers take on the radios and other equipment.

73, phil, K7PEH

On Apr 3, 2014, at 10:29 AM, Wes (N7WS) <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Amen
>
> On 4/3/2014 6:49 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>>
>>> What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is
>>> not the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it
>>> particularly challenging to use the panel controls or the menus -
>>> but, maybe that's just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or
>>> plastic molding? I go for functionality of design - not eye candy.
>>
>> The issue is not "lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding" ...
>> I've given up counting the number of times the radio has changed
>> bands when I meant to change modes or vice versa or the number of
>> times I've engaged RIT when I wanted to turn off the speaker, the
>> number of times I've reset VFO B when I wanted to engage split, or
>> the number of times I've linked VFOs when I wanted to turn on the
>> KRX-3. These are the problems with the limited number of tightly
>> packed, dual function controls and looking the same.
>>
>> While I certainly appreciate the performance of the K3 - it is on
>> my operating bench whilst the MK V and FT-2000 gather dust in the
>> closet - having fewer dual function controls and band/mode controls
>> that are physically separated and very different in design *IS* a
>> major improvement in ergonomics. If I had but one wish it would
>> be that Elecraft would give up on the thought that every radio
>> must be capable of operating from a backpack on a small 12V battery
>> and would produce a real home station radio with 24 or 48 V finals
>> and a large front panel supporting separate band and mode buttons.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>> On 4/3/2014 6:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote:
>>> In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "........too many
>>> people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard
>>> things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of
>>> the list)."
>>>
>>> What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is not
>>> the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it particularly
>>> challenging to use the panel controls or the menus - but, maybe that's
>>> just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding? I go
>>> for functionality of design - not eye candy.
>>>
>>> The only thing I did to improve the controls on my K3 was to add a
>>> TenTec tire to the main VFO knob - it increases the diameter slightly
>>> and has a nicer feel to it than hard plastic.
>>>
>>> Bill K-Line
>
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Wes (N7WS)

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by Kevin Stover

Nothing that follows has anything to do with ergonomics, which is the topic of
this thread, but at my advanced age I no longer suffer fools gladly. I will
answer other comments in another post but yours deserve special attention.

My K3 is S/N 2059, what's yours?

Mine would be even older but I wasn't about to order something that would be
delivered a year later, so I waited until delivery time was a week or so.

If _your_ radio has the microphonic killing VCO stiffener, it's because _my_
radio spent two months back at Elecraft as a guinea pig for the development of
the stiffener. This was after I demonstrated the modulation of the VCO by the
internal speaker, in my radio and his, to an Elecraft engineer in my shack.

I also showed him the differences between my radio and his when the rf-gain was
adjusted. Every radio is different in this regard until the "RF Gain
Calibration" is performed. I spent hours beta testing this software so your
radio will perform better.

A question for you: Do you prefer "grape" Kool-Aid?

Wes N7WS

On 4/3/2014 6:05 AM, Kevin Stover wrote:

> Sour grapes from guys who can't believe the K3 is the equal of or better than
> their rig which they spent too much on (5 digits, anybody still have their
> FTDX-9000's) to get the 100+ pretty lights and useless, mostly unused buttons.
>
> They can't knock the rig on it's performance, 7 years later, so they bring up
> "ergonomics".
>
> One word describes that...Weak.
>
> On 4/3/2014 5:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote:
>> In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "........too many
>> people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard
>> things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of the
>> list)."
>
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3

> But, assume SAME K3 functionality.

I'm not so sure *SAME* functionality is a fair question for the next
generation top of the line transceiver.

Among other things, the headphone amplifier really needs to be a bit
more stout than 100 mW - 500 mW if not 1 watt is more appropriate even
if the design includes some build out resistors to limit SPL. The
speaker amplifier could certainly be more robust as well - 1.5 W per
channel doe not cut it in all cases - 5 or 10 W per channel is more
appropriate so the amplifier is not being run to it ragged edge and
possibly distortion under normal operation.

I've already listed several of the dual function controls that get
a lot of workout. One can also add APF which is the *second* function
on a little used XFIL button and a bank of five to eight PF buttons to
those things that would be highly desirable.

On the inside - consider a better second mixer than the 612 to improve
window IMD. Others have already mentioned putting the notch filters
*inside* the AGC loop. 24 or 48 volt finals would move transmit IMD
from the barely adequate low -30 dB range to around -40 dB as well as
offer 200 W capability for those who don't use an external amplifier.
Perhaps the synthesizer handling could be improved to allow transmit on
either VFO with the main and subreceiver on different bands. Finally,
consider a controller with more capability and DSP predistortion to
really make the transmit IMD shine.

None of this is difficult - nor even ground breaking technology - but
it would significantly improve a transceiver designed for home station
use rather than cripple an otherwise fine design by limiting size and
current consumptions. I would guess the differential cost would be
less than $800 - and would be well worth it, IMO.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 4/3/2014 1:42 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:

> My 2-bits: |u> and |d>
>
> OK, what if Elecraft took the K3 and did a major ergonomic redesign of the radio and called it the K3-Ergo. It could be twice as large, many single function buttons and dials and maybe even a more expanded multicolor LCD screen. But, assume SAME K3 functionality.
>
> How much more would this cost, maybe $300, $500, or maybe $750 more?
>
> As for me and my ham shack -- leave the ergonomics alone, they are fine by me. I like the K3 for what it is, not what people think it should be. When the Elecraft bunch come out with a new radio, I will consider its benefits and features but look-and-feel will not be on top of the list. But, then, I like the approach that Wayne and Eric and other other designers take on the radios and other equipment.
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
> On Apr 3, 2014, at 10:29 AM, Wes (N7WS) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Amen
>>
>> On 4/3/2014 6:49 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is
>>>> not the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it
>>>> particularly challenging to use the panel controls or the menus -
>>>> but, maybe that's just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or
>>>> plastic molding? I go for functionality of design - not eye candy.
>>>
>>> The issue is not "lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding" ...
>>> I've given up counting the number of times the radio has changed
>>> bands when I meant to change modes or vice versa or the number of
>>> times I've engaged RIT when I wanted to turn off the speaker, the
>>> number of times I've reset VFO B when I wanted to engage split, or
>>> the number of times I've linked VFOs when I wanted to turn on the
>>> KRX-3. These are the problems with the limited number of tightly
>>> packed, dual function controls and looking the same.
>>>
>>> While I certainly appreciate the performance of the K3 - it is on
>>> my operating bench whilst the MK V and FT-2000 gather dust in the
>>> closet - having fewer dual function controls and band/mode controls
>>> that are physically separated and very different in design *IS* a
>>> major improvement in ergonomics. If I had but one wish it would
>>> be that Elecraft would give up on the thought that every radio
>>> must be capable of operating from a backpack on a small 12V battery
>>> and would produce a real home station radio with 24 or 48 V finals
>>> and a large front panel supporting separate band and mode buttons.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/3/2014 6:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote:
>>>> In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "........too many
>>>> people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard
>>>> things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of
>>>> the list)."
>>>>
>>>> What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is not
>>>> the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it particularly
>>>> challenging to use the panel controls or the menus - but, maybe that's
>>>> just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding? I go
>>>> for functionality of design - not eye candy.
>>>>
>>>> The only thing I did to improve the controls on my K3 was to add a
>>>> TenTec tire to the main VFO knob - it increases the diameter slightly
>>>> and has a nicer feel to it than hard plastic.
>>>>
>>>> Bill K-Line
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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