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K3 - Ergonomics

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dhhdeh

K3 - Ergonomics

Joe, W4TV and Ian, GM3SEK; I found both of your
posts to be spot on with me and very insightful.

I own K3 #371 and have been disappointed with the
lack of its further development in the past 18
months or the "finishing" of some features as
mentioned by Ian.. And as much as I have tried,
really tried, for SIX years to adapt to the "tap
and hold" button feature...it's not for me.

When new, the K3 was a blast to own, to use and to
participate in the development of it for about the
first four years. But my attitude towards it has
changed in the past two years or so.

It's not the the K3 is "bad", far from it, but it
could be refined into an even better rig rather
than into an apparent development stepping stone
for the KX3 which holds no interest here for me.
To me, one of the shortcomings of SDR is that the
promise of on-going support and upgrades is
usually not fulfilled in the long run, for myriad
business and technology related reasons. I view
promises from any manufacturer (TT, ICOM, Kenwood,
Flex etc.) concerning future, long-term firmware
development with great skepticism. It never
continues past a certain time-frame which is
usually ends much sooner than one initially
expects. As for updated/redeveloped K3 boards to
be forthcoming, I hope ... but expect not. So I am
not holding out hope for any further meaningful
development for the K3. Elecraft has been far
better with it than most but it appears that the
K3 with 8000+ units sold is now a mature product
which will see refinements and enhancements as
rarer and rarer occurrences if at all.

I have found myself contemplating parting ways
with the K3 and Elecraft of late being drawn back
to using my TT Corsair II and Omni V.9 more and
more. Highly modified by me, they compete very
favorably with the K3 for my op style and
expectations. (IMO TT has gone in a very strange
business direction of late which causes me to
wonder what they are doing).

Everyone is entitled to their personal opinions
and for most the K3 seems to still be the epitome
of HF rig evolution. That's fine. I mean you no
bad will nor is my intention to convince you
otherwise.

But after six years I still miss my dedicated band
switching (with stacking registers) and I still
don't like Kool-Aid regardless of flavor. ;-)

73 de N1LQ-Dave

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MontyS

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

I don't want any rig to be the "last rig I Own". I had a K3, and loved it,
for over 5 years. I will probably get another one in the future. I've
owned a HW-100, a Swan - the first with a digital readout, a Kachina 505 -
the first computer-controlled radio, an IC-756 Pro with a color screen, a
Kenwood TS 840 that was solid as a rock, and the Elecraft K3 as main radios.

The K3's ergonomics are different, but pretty easy to learn unless one needs
hundreds of buttons and knobs.

Monty K2DLJ

Joe, W4TV and Ian, GM3SEK; I found both of your
posts to be spot on with me and very insightful.

I own K3 #371 and have been disappointed with the
lack of its further development in the past 18
months or the "finishing" of some features as
mentioned by Ian.. And as much as I have tried,
really tried, for SIX years to adapt to the "tap
and hold" button feature...it's not for me.

When new, the K3 was a blast to own, to use and to
participate in the development of it for about the
first four years. But my attitude towards it has
changed in the past two years or so.

It's not the the K3 is "bad", far from it, but it
could be refined into an even better rig rather
than into an apparent development stepping stone
for the KX3 which holds no interest here for me.
To me, one of the shortcomings of SDR is that the
promise of on-going support and upgrades is
usually not fulfilled in the long run, for myriad
business and technology related reasons. I view
promises from any manufacturer (TT, ICOM, Kenwood,
Flex etc.) concerning future, long-term firmware
development with great skepticism. It never
continues past a certain time-frame which is
usually ends much sooner than one initially
expects. As for updated/redeveloped K3 boards to
be forthcoming, I hope ... but expect not. So I am
not holding out hope for any further meaningful
development for the K3. Elecraft has been far
better with it than most but it appears that the
K3 with 8000+ units sold is now a mature product
which will see refinements and enhancements as
rarer and rarer occurrences if at all.

I have found myself contemplating parting ways
with the K3 and Elecraft of late being drawn back
to using my TT Corsair II and Omni V.9 more and
more. Highly modified by me, they compete very
favorably with the K3 for my op style and
expectations. (IMO TT has gone in a very strange
business direction of late which causes me to
wonder what they are doing).

Everyone is entitled to their personal opinions
and for most the K3 seems to still be the epitome
of HF rig evolution. That's fine. I mean you no
bad will nor is my intention to convince you
otherwise.

But after six years I still miss my dedicated band
switching (with stacking registers) and I still
don't like Kool-Aid regardless of flavor. ;-)

73 de N1LQ-Dave

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Grant Youngman

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by dhhdeh

I have to admit, I find most of this discussion a bit odd.

Why, is the K3 less “fun” today than it was two years ago? Why do you expect Elecraft to deliver more radio than you purchased? If I buy an SL245 (that’s a car, not a radio!), I don’t then 3 years later grouse about the fact that it won’t seat 5 comfortably, that it hasn’t met met my personal benchmark of 0-60 in under 2 seconds, and whine that Mercedes hasn’t “finished” the car (which it seems really means they haven’t delivered some feature we’ve dreamed up that it doesn’t have).

Sure, there are some things I’d like to see in the radio that aren’t there. But I don’t have any expectations that Elecraft is going to continue to rock my socks off with fabulous new features or deliver a new 50 lb cabinet with every possible function available on a dedicated rotary control suitable for operation with big cartoon hands. Ok, I do wish that it had a belt clip and 7 days of battery life with Windows 8.1 on the screen and a version of Siri to control it, but that said ….

What “further” development have the guys that bought the $12,000.00 radios a few years ago seen? If we get something, that’s good. And I think we’ve done pretty well. If we don’t, it’s still a freaking K3 for goodness sake, regardless of what you now find lacking. If you’re really having buyer’s remorse, there are other options …

Grant NQ5T

On Apr 3, 2014, at 4:12 PM, David and Dianne on Comcast <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Joe, W4TV and Ian, GM3SEK; I found both of your posts to be spot on with me and very insightful.
>
> I own K3 #371 and have been disappointed with the lack of its further development in the past 18 months or the "finishing" of some features as mentioned by Ian.. And as much as I have tried, really tried, for SIX years to adapt to the "tap and hold" button feature...it's not for me.
>
> When new, the K3 was a blast to own, to use and to participate in the development of it for about the first four years. But my attitude towards it has changed in the past two years or so.
>
> It's not the the K3 is "bad", far from it, but it could be refined into an even better rig rather than into an apparent development stepping stone for the KX3 which holds no interest here for me. To me, one of the shortcomings of SDR is that the promise of on-going support and upgrades is usually not fulfilled in the long run, for myriad business and technology related reasons. I view promises from any manufacturer (TT, ICOM, Kenwood, Flex etc.) concerning future, long-term firmware development with great skepticism. It never continues past a certain time-frame which is usually ends much sooner than one initially expects. As for updated/redeveloped K3 boards to be forthcoming, I hope ... but expect not. So I am not holding out hope for any further meaningful development for the K3. Elecraft has been far better with it than most but it appears that the K3 with 8000+ units sold is now a mature product which will see refinements and enhancements as rarer and rarer occurrences if at all.
>
> I have found myself contemplating parting ways with the K3 and Elecraft of late being drawn back to using my TT Corsair II and Omni V.9 more and more. Highly modified by me, they compete very favorably with the K3 for my op style and expectations. (IMO TT has gone in a very strange business direction of late which causes me to wonder what they are doing).
>
> Everyone is entitled to their personal opinions and for most the K3 seems to still be the epitome of HF rig evolution. That's fine. I mean you no bad will nor is my intention to convince you otherwise.
>
> But after six years I still miss my dedicated band switching (with stacking registers) and I still don't like Kool-Aid regardless of flavor. ;-)
>
> 73 de N1LQ-Dave

KD8NNU

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by MontyS

I don’t get the whole ergonomics thing as I find the radio easy to use.

Its way easier than my IC-7000 which is a small radio but has way more
layers of menus.

~73
Don
KD8NNU
-.- -.. ---.. -. -. ..-
-----Original Message-----
From: MontyS
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 6:13 PM
To: David and Dianne on Comcast ; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics

I don't want any rig to be the "last rig I Own". I had a K3, and loved it,
for over 5 years. I will probably get another one in the future. I've
owned a HW-100, a Swan - the first with a digital readout, a Kachina 505 -
the first computer-controlled radio, an IC-756 Pro with a color screen, a
Kenwood TS 840 that was solid as a rock, and the Elecraft K3 as main radios.

The K3's ergonomics are different, but pretty easy to learn unless one needs
hundreds of buttons and knobs.

Monty K2DLJ

Joe, W4TV and Ian, GM3SEK; I found both of your
posts to be spot on with me and very insightful.

I own K3 #371 and have been disappointed with the
lack of its further development in the past 18
months or the "finishing" of some features as
mentioned by Ian.. And as much as I have tried,
really tried, for SIX years to adapt to the "tap
and hold" button feature...it's not for me.

When new, the K3 was a blast to own, to use and to
participate in the development of it for about the
first four years. But my attitude towards it has
changed in the past two years or so.

It's not the the K3 is "bad", far from it, but it
could be refined into an even better rig rather
than into an apparent development stepping stone
for the KX3 which holds no interest here for me.
To me, one of the shortcomings of SDR is that the
promise of on-going support and upgrades is
usually not fulfilled in the long run, for myriad
business and technology related reasons. I view
promises from any manufacturer (TT, ICOM, Kenwood,
Flex etc.) concerning future, long-term firmware
development with great skepticism. It never
continues past a certain time-frame which is
usually ends much sooner than one initially
expects. As for updated/redeveloped K3 boards to
be forthcoming, I hope ... but expect not. So I am
not holding out hope for any further meaningful
development for the K3. Elecraft has been far
better with it than most but it appears that the
K3 with 8000+ units sold is now a mature product
which will see refinements and enhancements as
rarer and rarer occurrences if at all.

I have found myself contemplating parting ways
with the K3 and Elecraft of late being drawn back
to using my TT Corsair II and Omni V.9 more and
more. Highly modified by me, they compete very
favorably with the K3 for my op style and
expectations. (IMO TT has gone in a very strange
business direction of late which causes me to
wonder what they are doing).

Everyone is entitled to their personal opinions
and for most the K3 seems to still be the epitome
of HF rig evolution. That's fine. I mean you no
bad will nor is my intention to convince you
otherwise.

But after six years I still miss my dedicated band
switching (with stacking registers) and I still
don't like Kool-Aid regardless of flavor. ;-)

73 de N1LQ-Dave

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gm3sek

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by Grant Youngman

>I have to admit, I find most of this discussion a bit odd.
>
>Why, is the K3 less "fun" today than it was two years ago? Why do you
>expect Elecraft to deliver more radio than you purchased?

Because that is precisely what Elecraft did deliver in the early days of
the K3 - both the "fun" part and the "more radio".

The early adopters purchased the K3 with a lot of rough edges, on the
explicit understanding that there would be ongoing firmware upgrades;
and for a while, Elecraft delivered on that promise. We did get more
radio than we had originally purchased because that was part of the
bargain.

While major features were still being worked on, K3 owners were happy to
cut Elecraft some slack about numerous issues of lower priority. We were
content with Elecraft's acknowledgement that "It's on the list".

The cause for disquiet now is that the K3 upgrade process has tapered
off prematurely. As Elecraft's attention has turned to other products,
many of those "on the list" issues remain unaddressed.

So the answer to your question, "Is the K3 less 'fun' today than it was
two years ago?" is: "Yes". I still wouldn't trade my K3 for anything
else, but the fun of ownership is being replaced by disappointment that
the K3 still has not reached its full potential.

73 from Ian GM3SEK

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

I have to compare the K2 firmware development and its time span with the
firmware development of the K3.
The K2 was introduced in 1999 and its firmware was improved to add new
functions up until about 2006 (about the time the K3 was being
developed). Yes, the update rate slowed considerably over time, and
besides the K2 firmware cost the builder extra dollars. Since 2006,
there were only 2 additional firmware updates - MCU 2.04P/IOC 1.09 to
support the addition of the K2 Keying waveshape mod and the K60XV and
then later MCU 2.04r was released with the only change being the
selection of a sidetone source between U6 pin 25 and U8 pin 4 was
restricted to U8 pin 4 because of numerous support calls and emails
because "My K2 has lost its sidetone". There will likely be no more K2
firmware updates unless it is required to support a change required by
an obsolete component that is no longer available - the K2 is a mature
product. The most active firmware development was in the first 4 years.

As for the K3, yes firmware updates slowed as development work on the
KX3 was coming on line at Elecraft which kept the K3 MCU and DSP
firmware (and hardware) developers busy with KX3 tasks, but there *have*
been K3 firmware updates during that timeframe too, they were just
slower coming.
The K3 was first available in 2008 which makes it now almost 6 years old
- like the K2, firmware upgrades were most active in the first 4 years -
plus, the firmware upgrades for the K3 are at no cost to the owner.
Development cost for firmware upgrades do exist, and there is no cost
recovery for Elecraft except that produced by new K3 sales and the
introduction on new products to amortize that cost.

Keep in mind that there are two primary firmware developers who share
their efforts between the K3 and KX3 (one for the K2). Other firmware
developers were brought on line for the P3, the KPA500, the KAT500, and
the KXPA100/KXAT100, but those developers are multitasking too, and they
have to focus their efforts on the higher priority items - one of which
*may* be the new product that is to be revealed this weekend.

That is not to say that things still "on the K3 list" will not get
attention, I am only saying that the rate will slow down given
development time taken from the necessary attention to the 'new goodies'
from Elecraft. Elecraft is not large enough to allow one employee to
dedicate all his time to a single development task, so all are
multitasking at all times. When I was with IBM, such dedication to a
single task was possible, but Elecraft is nowhere the size of IBM and
does not have those huge resources available.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/3/2014 8:01 PM, Ian White wrote:

>> I have to admit, I find most of this discussion a bit odd.
>>
>> Why, is the K3 less "fun" today than it was two years ago? Why do you
>> expect Elecraft to deliver more radio than you purchased?
> Because that is precisely what Elecraft did deliver in the early days of
> the K3 - both the "fun" part and the "more radio".
>
> The early adopters purchased the K3 with a lot of rough edges, on the
> explicit understanding that there would be ongoing firmware upgrades;
> and for a while, Elecraft delivered on that promise. We did get more
> radio than we had originally purchased because that was part of the
> bargain.
>
> While major features were still being worked on, K3 owners were happy to
> cut Elecraft some slack about numerous issues of lower priority. We were
> content with Elecraft's acknowledgement that "It's on the list".
>
> The cause for disquiet now is that the K3 upgrade process has tapered
> off prematurely. As Elecraft's attention has turned to other products,
> many of those "on the list" issues remain unaddressed.
>
>

Phil Wheeler-2

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by MontyS

Sounds like you're going for "last rigS", Marty :-)

Phil W7OX

On 4/3/14, 3:13 PM, MontyS wrote:
> I don't want any rig to be the "last rig I
> Own". I had a K3, and loved it, for over 5
> years. I will probably get another one in the
> future. I've owned a HW-100, a Swan - the first
> with a digital readout, a Kachina 505 - the
> first computer-controlled radio, an IC-756 Pro
> with a color screen, a Kenwood TS 840 that was
> solid as a rock, and the Elecraft K3 as main radios.

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Johnny Siu

K3 - firmware development (was : Ergonomics)

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Hello Don,

It is prefectly understandable for a slower rate of firmware changes because K3 is now quite a mature radio. In other words, K3 is no longer a 'work-in-progress' radio.

Once a product is mature, company may spend its effort to develop next generation product or consider additional features to enhance the product life of existing products. All those are typical business school theories.

Elecraft is just moving in the right direction as it should be. I would only concern about the 'reserved processing power / capacity ' in the DSP of K3 so that the chances of future improvements are not too limited. Having said that, elecraft may be clever enough to let us swap a newer / higher power DSP board.

73

Johnny VR2XMC

________________________________
寄件人︰ Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
收件人︰ [hidden email]
傳送日期︰ 2014年04月4日 (週五) 8:47 AM
主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics

I have to compare the K2 firmware development and its time span with the
firmware development of the K3.
The K2 was introduced in 1999 and its firmware was improved to add new
functions up until about 2006 (about the time the K3 was being
developed). Yes, the update rate slowed considerably over time, and
besides the K2 firmware cost the builder extra dollars. Since 2006,
there were only 2 additional firmware updates - MCU 2.04P/IOC 1.09 to
support the addition of the K2 Keying waveshape mod and the K60XV and
then later MCU 2.04r was released with the only change being the
selection of a sidetone source between U6 pin 25 and U8 pin 4 was
restricted to U8 pin 4 because of numerous support calls and emails
because "My K2 has lost its sidetone". There will likely be no more K2
firmware updates unless it is required to support a change required by
an obsolete component that is no longer available - the K2 is a mature
product. The most active firmware development was in the first 4 years.

As for the K3, yes firmware updates slowed as development work on the
KX3 was coming on line at Elecraft which kept the K3 MCU and DSP
firmware (and hardware) developers busy with KX3 tasks, but there *have*
been K3 firmware updates during that timeframe too, they were just
slower coming.
The K3 was first available in 2008 which makes it now almost 6 years old
- like the K2, firmware upgrades were most active in the first 4 years -
plus, the firmware upgrades for the K3 are at no cost to the owner.
Development cost for firmware upgrades do exist, and there is no cost
recovery for Elecraft except that produced by new K3 sales and the
introduction on new products to amortize that cost.

Keep in mind that there are two primary firmware developers who share
their efforts between the K3 and KX3 (one for the K2). Other firmware
developers were brought on line for the P3, the KPA500, the KAT500, and
the KXPA100/KXAT100, but those developers are multitasking too, and they
have to focus their efforts on the higher priority items - one of which
*may* be the new product that is to be revealed this weekend.

That is not to say that things still "on the K3 list" will not get
attention, I am only saying that the rate will slow down given
development time taken from the necessary attention to the 'new goodies'
from Elecraft. Elecraft is not large enough to allow one employee to
dedicate all his time to a single development task, so all are
multitasking at all times. When I was with IBM, such dedication to a
single task was possible, but Elecraft is nowhere the size of IBM and
does not have those huge resources available.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/3/2014 8:01 PM, Ian White wrote:

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Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by Phil Wheeler-2

Since "last rig" implies something far more final, I'd agree with the
original poster.

I don't want a "last rig" either.

73 -- Lynn

On 4/3/2014 5:55 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
> Sounds like you're going for "last rigS"

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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

Sometimes a useful way to put it, like when
discussing buying the K3/P3, KX3, KPA500 and
KAT500 with my wife. And who knows, at my age
Elecraft may not come up with one better soon
enough (Murphy's Law may attack me now, with some
imminent Elecraft announcement unrelated to the
KX3) :-)

My last (excuse me -- most recent!) main rig --
until the K-line this year -- was the K2/100, and
I'm still improving that one, here and there.

73, Phil W7OX

On 4/3/14, 6:48 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:

> Since "last rig" implies something far more
> final, I'd agree with the original poster.
>
> I don't want a "last rig" either.
>
> 73 -- Lynn
>
> On 4/3/2014 5:55 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
>> Sounds like you're going for "last rigS"
>
> ______________________________________________________________
>
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home:
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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>

Vic Rosenthal

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by dhhdeh

I too am an 'old' K3 owner (in more than one sense). I have K3 #0007.
Yes, /seven/. I was one of the incredibly lucky members of a focus group
when the K3 was still in prototype form.

I love my K3 as much as anyone can 'love' a radio. But I agree with
Dave, Joe and Ian that the K3 still has some rough edges.

My analysis is that this is an economic problem. Elecraft has to pay the
bills, which they can't do unless they sell stuff. I once suggested to
Wayne that he charge something for 'premium' firmware, possibly with
specialized features that not everyone would want. That would give them
some revenue to finance continued development for existing products.

He told me -- in no uncertain terms -- that Elecraft would never, ever
charge anything for firmware updates.

In any transaction you get what you pay for, and we have no way to pay
for continued K3 development.

On 4/3/2014 2:12 PM, David and Dianne on Comcast wrote:

> Joe, W4TV and Ian, GM3SEK; I found both of your posts to be spot on with
> me and very insightful.
>
> I own K3 #371 and have been disappointed with the lack of its further
> development in the past 18 months or the "finishing" of some features as
> mentioned by Ian.. And as much as I have tried, really tried, for SIX
> years to adapt to the "tap and hold" button feature...it's not for me.
>
> When new, the K3 was a blast to own, to use and to participate in the
> development of it for about the first four years. But my attitude
> towards it has changed in the past two years or so.
>
> It's not the the K3 is "bad", far from it, but it could be refined into
> an even better rig rather than into an apparent development stepping
> stone for the KX3 which holds no interest here for me. To me, one of the
> shortcomings of SDR is that the promise of on-going support and upgrades
> is usually not fulfilled in the long run, for myriad business and
> technology related reasons. I view promises from any manufacturer (TT,
> ICOM, Kenwood, Flex etc.) concerning future, long-term firmware
> development with great skepticism. It never continues past a certain
> time-frame which is usually ends much sooner than one initially
> expects. As for updated/redeveloped K3 boards to be forthcoming, I hope
> ... but expect not. So I am not holding out hope for any further
> meaningful development for the K3. Elecraft has been far better with it
> than most but it appears that the K3 with 8000+ units sold is now a
> mature product which will see refinements and enhancements as rarer and
> rarer occurrences if at all.
>
> I have found myself contemplating parting ways with the K3 and Elecraft
> of late being drawn back to using my TT Corsair II and Omni V.9 more
> and more. Highly modified by me, they compete very favorably with the K3
> for my op style and expectations. (IMO TT has gone in a very strange
> business direction of late which causes me to wonder what they are doing).
>
> Everyone is entitled to their personal opinions and for most the K3
> seems to still be the epitome of HF rig evolution. That's fine. I mean
> you no bad will nor is my intention to convince you otherwise.
>
> But after six years I still miss my dedicated band switching (with
> stacking registers) and I still don't like Kool-Aid regardless of
> flavor. ;-)
>
> 73 de N1LQ-Dave

Phil Hystad-3

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

> I once suggested to Wayne that he charge something for 'premium' firmware, possibly with specialized features that not everyone would want. That would give them some revenue to finance continued development for existing products.
>
> He told me -- in no uncertain terms -- that Elecraft would never, ever charge anything for firmware updates.

I can imagine the nasty world of managing a whole slew of different versions of the K3 (firmware) if Elecraft started releasing options for a fee. That means that if they did this enough times, no two K3s would be the same (well, yes that is a little extreme) -- But, the problem is not receiving money for the firmware updates but the added expense of managing versions of your software. The way things are now, each release includes all fixes, patches, and updates of earlier releases -- the smart way to maintain software in the field.

I have been in the software business for 45 years and 35 of that was delivering custom systems from a common base where managing updates and bug fixes was a nightmare. It is still a nightmare since the nature of the software virtually ruled out the idea of deploying the same system over and over. Our software maintenance staff was larger then the development staff.

Elecraft should work to avoid problems like that whenever they can. I applaud Wayne's decision because it is the right thing to do business-wise.

73, phil, K7PEH

On Apr 3, 2014, at 7:39 PM, Vic Rosenthal K2VCO <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I too am an 'old' K3 owner (in more than one sense). I have K3 #0007. Yes, /seven/. I was one of the incredibly lucky members of a focus group when the K3 was still in prototype form.
>
> I love my K3 as much as anyone can 'love' a radio. But I agree with Dave, Joe and Ian that the K3 still has some rough edges.
>
> My analysis is that this is an economic problem. Elecraft has to pay the bills, which they can't do unless they sell stuff. I once suggested to Wayne that he charge something for 'premium' firmware, possibly with specialized features that not everyone would want. That would give them some revenue to finance continued development for existing products.
>
> He told me -- in no uncertain terms -- that Elecraft would never, ever charge anything for firmware updates.
>
> In any transaction you get what you pay for, and we have no way to pay for continued K3 development.
>
> On 4/3/2014 2:12 PM, David and Dianne on Comcast wrote:
>> Joe, W4TV and Ian, GM3SEK; I found both of your posts to be spot on with
>> me and very insightful.
>>
>> I own K3 #371 and have been disappointed with the lack of its further
>> development in the past 18 months or the "finishing" of some features as
>> mentioned by Ian.. And as much as I have tried, really tried, for SIX
>> years to adapt to the "tap and hold" button feature...it's not for me.
>>
>> When new, the K3 was a blast to own, to use and to participate in the
>> development of it for about the first four years. But my attitude
>> towards it has changed in the past two years or so.
>>
>> It's not the the K3 is "bad", far from it, but it could be refined into
>> an even better rig rather than into an apparent development stepping
>> stone for the KX3 which holds no interest here for me. To me, one of the
>> shortcomings of SDR is that the promise of on-going support and upgrades
>> is usually not fulfilled in the long run, for myriad business and
>> technology related reasons. I view promises from any manufacturer (TT,
>> ICOM, Kenwood, Flex etc.) concerning future, long-term firmware
>> development with great skepticism. It never continues past a certain
>> time-frame which is usually ends much sooner than one initially
>> expects. As for updated/redeveloped K3 boards to be forthcoming, I hope
>> ... but expect not. So I am not holding out hope for any further
>> meaningful development for the K3. Elecraft has been far better with it
>> than most but it appears that the K3 with 8000+ units sold is now a
>> mature product which will see refinements and enhancements as rarer and
>> rarer occurrences if at all.
>>
>> I have found myself contemplating parting ways with the K3 and Elecraft
>> of late being drawn back to using my TT Corsair II and Omni V.9 more
>> and more. Highly modified by me, they compete very favorably with the K3
>> for my op style and expectations. (IMO TT has gone in a very strange
>> business direction of late which causes me to wonder what they are doing).
>>
>> Everyone is entitled to their personal opinions and for most the K3
>> seems to still be the epitome of HF rig evolution. That's fine. I mean
>> you no bad will nor is my intention to convince you otherwise.
>>
>> But after six years I still miss my dedicated band switching (with
>> stacking registers) and I still don't like Kool-Aid regardless of
>> flavor. ;-)
>>
>> 73 de N1LQ-Dave
>
>
> --
> 73,
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Stephen Bloom

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by Vic Rosenthal

OK, so I gotta ask ...Am I the only one on this reflector who does the vast
majority of his radio adjustments via CAT/software? About the only time I
touch the radio is tuning the VFO nobs, Power up and down, and occasionally
the AF gain. I like having the options (as opposed to say a FlexRadio)
...but I have too much equipment that plays together to mess around with
buttons on a regular basis.

73
Steve KL7SB

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Vic Rosenthal K2VCO
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 6:39 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics

I too am an 'old' K3 owner (in more than one sense). I have K3 #0007.
Yes, /seven/. I was one of the incredibly lucky members of a focus group
when the K3 was still in prototype form.

I love my K3 as much as anyone can 'love' a radio. But I agree with Dave,
Joe and Ian that the K3 still has some rough edges.

My analysis is that this is an economic problem. Elecraft has to pay the
bills, which they can't do unless they sell stuff. I once suggested to Wayne
that he charge something for 'premium' firmware, possibly with specialized
features that not everyone would want. That would give them some revenue to
finance continued development for existing products.

He told me -- in no uncertain terms -- that Elecraft would never, ever
charge anything for firmware updates.

In any transaction you get what you pay for, and we have no way to pay for
continued K3 development.

On 4/3/2014 2:12 PM, David and Dianne on Comcast wrote:

> Joe, W4TV and Ian, GM3SEK; I found both of your posts to be spot on
> with me and very insightful.
>
> I own K3 #371 and have been disappointed with the lack of its further
> development in the past 18 months or the "finishing" of some features
> as mentioned by Ian.. And as much as I have tried, really tried, for
> SIX years to adapt to the "tap and hold" button feature...it's not for me.
>
> When new, the K3 was a blast to own, to use and to participate in the
> development of it for about the first four years. But my attitude
> towards it has changed in the past two years or so.
>
> It's not the the K3 is "bad", far from it, but it could be refined
> into an even better rig rather than into an apparent development
> stepping stone for the KX3 which holds no interest here for me. To me,
> one of the shortcomings of SDR is that the promise of on-going support
> and upgrades is usually not fulfilled in the long run, for myriad
> business and technology related reasons. I view promises from any
> manufacturer (TT, ICOM, Kenwood, Flex etc.) concerning future,
> long-term firmware development with great skepticism. It never
> continues past a certain time-frame which is usually ends much sooner
> than one initially expects. As for updated/redeveloped K3 boards to
> be forthcoming, I hope ... but expect not. So I am not holding out
> hope for any further meaningful development for the K3. Elecraft has
> been far better with it than most but it appears that the K3 with
> 8000+ units sold is now a mature product which will see refinements
> and enhancements as rarer and rarer occurrences if at all.
>
> I have found myself contemplating parting ways with the K3 and
> Elecraft of late being drawn back to using my TT Corsair II and Omni
> V.9 more and more. Highly modified by me, they compete very favorably
> with the K3 for my op style and expectations. (IMO TT has gone in a
> very strange business direction of late which causes me to wonder what

they are doing).

>
> Everyone is entitled to their personal opinions and for most the K3
> seems to still be the epitome of HF rig evolution. That's fine. I mean
> you no bad will nor is my intention to convince you otherwise.
>
> But after six years I still miss my dedicated band switching (with
> stacking registers) and I still don't like Kool-Aid regardless of
> flavor. ;-)
>
> 73 de N1LQ-Dave

--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

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Bernhard.Horst

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by MontyS

I used FT-2000, FT-897 previously and the K3 requires, which some people do not do, reading a manual.
Once you have set it up to your need it works fine..during a contest all I need is there where it should be.

I sold all the Japanese radios now and working mainly with the K3...not to forget the restaurated Drake 7-line which is next to it. (it also has different ergonomics) And as Monty stated you have to learn the functions.

Like the comparison with cars...one day a convertible is cool, the other day a roadster or a hatch. Each handles differently and has different controls...depends on what you want.

For the "Knob lovers" the Y,K and I of this world offer their, what I call, "Shack Altars" for a 5 digit amount of bucks..you pay for knobs you turn maybe once a year! Easy spottable by the dust accumulation over a month. :-)

I like the K3 as it is! It´s like a roadster .. small, lightweight, pure, handles easily and gives direct feedback! AND if you do not know to drive it, it will not excuse mistakes.
If you do not know what you do, you can completely misconfigure your K3!

My 2 cent on this topic...

73s
Bernie
DL5RDP

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: MontyS [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Freitag, 4. April 2014 00:14
An: David and Dianne on Comcast; [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics

I don't want any rig to be the "last rig I Own". I had a K3, and loved it,
for over 5 years. I will probably get another one in the future. I've
owned a HW-100, a Swan - the first with a digital readout, a Kachina 505 -
the first computer-controlled radio, an IC-756 Pro with a color screen, a
Kenwood TS 840 that was solid as a rock, and the Elecraft K3 as main radios.

The K3's ergonomics are different, but pretty easy to learn unless one needs
hundreds of buttons and knobs.

Monty K2DLJ

Joe, W4TV and Ian, GM3SEK; I found both of your
posts to be spot on with me and very insightful.

I own K3 #371 and have been disappointed with the
lack of its further development in the past 18
months or the "finishing" of some features as
mentioned by Ian.. And as much as I have tried,
really tried, for SIX years to adapt to the "tap
and hold" button feature...it's not for me.

When new, the K3 was a blast to own, to use and to
participate in the development of it for about the
first four years. But my attitude towards it has
changed in the past two years or so.

It's not the the K3 is "bad", far from it, but it
could be refined into an even better rig rather
than into an apparent development stepping stone
for the KX3 which holds no interest here for me.
To me, one of the shortcomings of SDR is that the
promise of on-going support and upgrades is
usually not fulfilled in the long run, for myriad
business and technology related reasons. I view
promises from any manufacturer (TT, ICOM, Kenwood,
Flex etc.) concerning future, long-term firmware
development with great skepticism. It never
continues past a certain time-frame which is
usually ends much sooner than one initially
expects. As for updated/redeveloped K3 boards to
be forthcoming, I hope ... but expect not. So I am
not holding out hope for any further meaningful
development for the K3. Elecraft has been far
better with it than most but it appears that the
K3 with 8000+ units sold is now a mature product
which will see refinements and enhancements as
rarer and rarer occurrences if at all.

I have found myself contemplating parting ways
with the K3 and Elecraft of late being drawn back
to using my TT Corsair II and Omni V.9 more and
more. Highly modified by me, they compete very
favorably with the K3 for my op style and
expectations. (IMO TT has gone in a very strange
business direction of late which causes me to
wonder what they are doing).

Everyone is entitled to their personal opinions
and for most the K3 seems to still be the epitome
of HF rig evolution. That's fine. I mean you no
bad will nor is my intention to convince you
otherwise.

But after six years I still miss my dedicated band
switching (with stacking registers) and I still
don't like Kool-Aid regardless of flavor. ;-)

73 de N1LQ-Dave

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John K3TN

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

I picture myself walking into a ham radio shop (remember the days when we used to do that weekly?) and I go to the HF transceiver section and I see:

On the far left the are the tiny SDR boxes that you can only operate via a computer and the front panel choices are all software and essentially everyone can have their own front panel.

On the far left are the enormous TS-990 type transceivers where the front panel includes every function you might ever need and several graphic displays to show anything you might ever want to look at.

In between is a wide range of transceiver choices across the spectrum, from tiny QRP radios with limited front panel functionality to medium sized desktop transceivers with lots of (but not all) buttons on the front panel and some menu functionality, etc.

As someone who likes to do Field Day and the occasional state QSO party from a mobile environment, and does lots of DXing and contesting from the home shack, and almost invariably uses computer logging as part of every operation, I walked to the center left of that "store" and first checked out the receivers and *then* played with the front panels - and the K3 won the bakeoff.

I think that is what the Elecraft brand means - top notch receivers with clean transmitters in small packages that are designed to be used with computers an occasionally (or frequently) outside of the shack. That's where I'd like to see the Elecraft resources stay focused.

There really is no shortage of good choices on the left and right of that HF section, but only a few quality choices in that "center left"...

73 John K3TN

Roger D Johnson

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

I have only one small complaint about the ergonomics. I think the POWER button
should
be on the top left of the panel. My last two radios had it there and I was used
to it. I've
learned to use it at it's present location so it's a very minor gripe.

73 Roger

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Edward R Cole

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by dhhdeh

Long ago I mentioned using the "last radio I would own" argument with
my wife to acquire a K3/10. Well, I lied, and subsequently bought
the KX3 (to replace my FT-817). The continuous stream of firmware
upgrades does make this "sort-of" true, though. I have sn 4043, and
once thought I was the newbie with a K3. Elecraft has sold as many since!

To be a true "forever" radio it would have to be totally modular so
hardware could be upgraded, as well. But making every stage a
"plug-in" would result in a huge reliability issue. So it is
inevitable that technology improvements will eventually overcome the
present model. Some might say the KX3 is kind of that. Certainly
provides the opportunity to explore new hardware design ideas.

I am gratified that software updates are free. That really helped me
to make the initial purchase.
I am very happy with my K3 (which is the first radio that I can
really say that about - in 56 years in ham radio). I like the KX3
for what it offers me particularly for portable/mobile use, but it
does not replace the K3.

I have the best combo: both radios.

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
[hidden email]

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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

Much the same, Ed. My K3 is much newer (#8004),
but I've had a K2/100 with which I'm still pleased
-- partially because I can repair anything in it
and add some subtle improvements (I still have a
K2 to-do list). K2 is still a very capable rig,
but now in my 61st year as a ham, I decided to
treat myself to the best. I also have K1, KX1 and
KX3 -- and the FT-817 in a box.

Today I'm recabling my shack (RG-8X becomes RG-213
past the lightning arresters) to support the
KPA500/KAT500 which arrived on my doorstep
yesterday -- and also recabling to let the KAT500
do the antenna switching (mostly, I have 4
antennas, but the 30 m dipole gets least use and I
can't use high power there anyway).

My interest in the hobby has been high and low
over the years, but it is a great hobby. And
unlike my other hobby (photography) the
manufacturers don't do yearly updates -- fortunately!

73, Phil W7OX

On 4/4/14, 10:24 AM, Edward R Cole wrote:

> Long ago I mentioned using the "last radio I
> would own" argument with my wife to acquire a
> K3/10. Well, I lied, and subsequently bought
> the KX3 (to replace my FT-817). The continuous
> stream of firmware upgrades does make this
> "sort-of" true, though. I have sn 4043, and
> once thought I was the newbie with a K3.
> Elecraft has sold as many since!
>
> To be a true "forever" radio it would have to be
> totally modular so hardware could be upgraded,
> as well. But making every stage a "plug-in"
> would result in a huge reliability issue. So it
> is inevitable that technology improvements will
> eventually overcome the present model. Some
> might say the KX3 is kind of that. Certainly
> provides the opportunity to explore new hardware
> design ideas.
>
> I am gratified that software updates are free.
> That really helped me to make the initial purchase.
> I am very happy with my K3 (which is the first
> radio that I can really say that about - in 56
> years in ham radio). I like the KX3 for what it
> offers me particularly for portable/mobile use,
> but it does not replace the K3.
>
> I have the best combo: both radios.
>
> 73, Ed - KL7UW
> http://www.kl7uw.com
> "Kits made by KL7UW"
> Dubus Mag business:
> [hidden email]

k6dgw

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by Stephen Bloom

Probably not, Steve. I use a Pigknob to control my K3 but not for any
reasons dealing with K3 "ergonomic deficiencies." I contest with N1MM
and do occasionally type a frequency into the CALL field to control the
radio, and N1MM sends for me, but beyond that, I use the controls on the
radio. I've tried a couple of software packages but gave them up,
somehow it just "wasn't radio" for me. YMMV [actually, it sounds like
it does :-)]

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
- www.cqp.org

On 4/3/2014 9:34 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote:
> OK, so I gotta ask ...Am I the only one on this reflector who does the vast
> majority of his radio adjustments via CAT/software? About the only time I
> touch the radio is tuning the VFO nobs, Power up and down, and occasionally
> the AF gain. I like having the options (as opposed to say a FlexRadio)
> ...but I have too much equipment that plays together to mess around with
> buttons on a regular basis.
>
> 73
> Steve KL7SB

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riese-k3djc

Re: K3 - Ergonomics

In reply to this post by dhhdeh

I had to have my orthopedic surgeon repair my hand
from the Ergonomics on the K3

Har

Bob K3DJC
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