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K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

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LA8AW

K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

Today it happened again for TX5K, last year for PT0S and HK0NA,
probably for other DX stations as well:
The DX station TX frequency is jumping up/down.....

And the reason is:

The Link function is activated when holding down the SUB rx button for
a short period of time, and there is no indications in the display to
tell that the VFO's are linked.

The operators is probably going to use the Lock function, on the RATE
button, instead push the SUB button (yes, lock is clearly labelled
above the SUB button.....)

I suggest to make Link/UnLink as a Menu option instead of a "hidden"
function on the SUB button

_____________________

73 de LA8AW - Odd-Egil
_____________________
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

> I suggest to make Link/UnLink as a Menu option instead of a "hidden"
> function on the SUB button

I agree ... or at least make it the "third" function on the SUB instead
of the second.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 3/4/2013 9:58 AM, LA8AW wrote:

> Today it happened again for TX5K, last year for PT0S and HK0NA,
> probably for other DX stations as well:
> The DX station TX frequency is jumping up/down.....
>
> And the reason is:
>
> The Link function is activated when holding down the SUB rx button for
> a short period of time, and there is no indications in the display to
> tell that the VFO's are linked.
>
> The operators is probably going to use the Lock function, on the RATE
> button, instead push the SUB button (yes, lock is clearly labelled
> above the SUB button.....)
>
> I suggest to make Link/UnLink as a Menu option instead of a "hidden"
> function on the SUB button
>
>
> _____________________
>
> 73 de LA8AW - Odd-Egil
> _____________________
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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alsopb

Re: K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

In reply to this post by LA8AW

This illustrates why the K3 needs more programmable buttons.

I programmed this function on M2 button since I never need memories.
The unlink is done the programmed M4 button--in conjunction with unsplit.

I use this a lot.

73 de Brian/K3KO

On 3/4/2013 14:58, LA8AW wrote:

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wayne burdick

Re: K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

Administrator

In reply to this post by LA8AW

There is an indication that the frequency is linked: a flashing
decimal point on the VFO B display. But since VFO linking is rarely
used, I'll add a menu entry to "opt in".

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Mar 4, 2013, at 6:58 AM, LA8AW wrote:

Scott Manthe-2

Re: K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

Not to sound like too much of a sycophant, but I suppose this kind of
thing is why I've drunk deeply of the Elecraft Kool-Aid. It's hard to
imagine "Ickensu" responding to a concern like this in this way.

73,
Scott, N9AA

On 3/4/13 12:13 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
> There is an indication that the frequency is linked: a flashing
> decimal point on the VFO B display. But since VFO linking is rarely
> used, I'll add a menu entry to "opt in".
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
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David F. Reed-2

Re: K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

I use linking quite a bit, when doing diversity reception; it would be
nice to have it as "handy" as it currently is...

73 de Dave, W5SV

On 3/4/13 11:13 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
> There is an indication that the frequency is linked: a flashing
> decimal point on the VFO B display. But since VFO linking is rarely
> used, I'll add a menu entry to "opt in".
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR

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wayne burdick

Re: K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

Administrator

It will still be "handy," but you'll need to tap a switch in a menu
entry (one time) to enable it. I hope this isn't too inconvenient.

Wayne

On Mar 4, 2013, at 9:40 AM, David F. Reed wrote:

> I use linking quite a bit, when doing diversity reception; it would
> be nice to have it as "handy" as it currently is...
>
> 73 de Dave, W5SV
>
> On 3/4/13 11:13 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>> There is an indication that the frequency is linked: a flashing
>> decimal point on the VFO B display. But since VFO linking is rarely
>> used, I'll add a menu entry to "opt in".
>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>

gm3sek

Re: K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

>
> I use linking quite a bit, when doing diversity reception; it would
> be nice to have it as "handy" as it currently is...
>
> 73 de Dave, W5SV
>

A manual Link control is not necessary for diversity reception. 'Sync
and link' already happen automatically when entering Diversity mode.

If the manual Link control is removed, Diversity would then become the
easily accessible 'hold' feature of the SUB button (available if the
second receiver is present, otherwise having no effect).

Another source of confusion in Diversity mode is the frequency display
for VFO B, which is not the true frequency of that VFO. (Obscurely, it
is the frequency that VFO B *would* jump to on TX, *if* the operator
*also* chooses to engage SPLIT.) That false frequency indication can
easily mislead the operator into believing that the two VFOs have not
been successfully synchronized.

In normal diversity reception, the display should show the *true* VFO B
frequency - reassuringly synchronized and slaved to VFO A. It should
only display that alternative frequency if SPLIT has actually been
selected.

73 from Ian GM3SEK

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Stewart@twinwood

Re: K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

Yes, I have found that confusing at times. It would be nice if that could be
tidied up as well.

73
Stewart G3RXQ

On Tue, 5 Mar 2013 08:03:36 -0000, Ian White wrote:

> Another source of confusion in Diversity mode is the frequency display
> for VFO B, which is not the true frequency of that VFO. (Obscurely, it
> is the frequency that VFO B *would* jump to on TX, *if* the operator
> *also* chooses to engage SPLIT.) That false frequency indication can
> easily mislead the operator into believing that the two VFOs have not
> been successfully synchronized.
>
> In normal diversity reception, the display should show the *true* VFO B
> frequency - reassuringly synchronized and slaved to VFO A. It should
> only display that alternative frequency if SPLIT has actually been
> selected.
>
>
> 73 from Ian GM3SEK
>
>
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Arie Kleingeld PA3A-2

Re: K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

If so, defenitely opt-in here.
Let me share why, although I seldom use the link function through the
'sub' button.

In the big contests I often use diversity reception. There are
situations that when called, I want to listen to the sub rx or to the
main rx only.
That is fixed by setting macro's in the function keys of the logging
software (in my case N1MM logger)
F12 - Link function - sets both RXs to same frequency, same mode and BW
and LINKs de VFO's.
The F12 is the set-up button so to speak.
F11 - listen diversity - macro sets listening to A - b
F10 - listen sub rx - macro sets listening to b - b
F9 - listen main rx - macro sets listening to A - A

After setting up with F12, using LINK, I find myself switching through
the different options quite a lot. Other operators also love it. (Yes,
the K3 is a very popular rig at the clubstation)

If I have no computer is available, I do this by hand. So opt-in here.

73
Arie PA3A

--------------
There is an indication that the frequency is linked: a flashing decimal
point on the VFO B display. But since VFO linking is rarely used, I'll
add a menu entry to "opt in".

73,
Wayne
N6KR
--------------
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W2RU - Bud Hippisley

Re: K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

In reply to this post by gm3sek

See questions and comments below.

Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Ian White" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.
> Date: March 5, 2013 3:03:36 AM EST
> To: "'Wayne Burdick'" <[hidden email]>, "'David F. Reed'" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: 'elecraft' <[hidden email]>
>
> A manual Link control is not necessary for diversity reception. 'Sync
> and link' already happen automatically when entering Diversity mode.
>
> If the manual Link control is removed, Diversity would then become the
> easily accessible 'hold' feature of the SUB button (available if the
> second receiver is present, otherwise having no effect).

I would love having Diversity become the "easily accessible HOLD feature of the SUB button", as suggested by Ian. But "if the manual Link control is removed", how would one then engage it for non-Diversity applications?

> Another source of confusion in Diversity mode is the frequency display
> for VFO B, which is not the true frequency of that VFO. (Obscurely, it
> is the frequency that VFO B *would* jump to on TX, *if* the operator
> *also* chooses to engage SPLIT.) That false frequency indication can
> easily mislead the operator into believing that the two VFOs have not
> been successfully synchronized.

> In normal diversity reception, the display should show the *true* VFO B
> frequency - reassuringly synchronized and slaved to VFO A. It should
> only display that alternative frequency if SPLIT has actually been
> selected.

I understand Ian's point about "confusion in Diversity mode"; I suffered from that the first few hundred times I used it, too. However...I think I'd still like to see where VFO B "would jump to on TX" before engaging the SPLIT button. For me, a better solution would be to dim the VFO B display (relative to VFO A intensity) when in Diversity mode and Split has not been selected. (I have no idea if that would be possible.) The slowly blinking decimal point is a bit too subtle and requires me to stare at it far too long to be the "right" way to indicate Diversity mode for me.

Bud, W2RU

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PTA_ABD

Re: K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

In reply to this post by LA8AW

How about a blinking vfo [B] for diversity ? I, too, find it cumbersome to look for the blinking dot with my telescope.
Since all the action is on one band , we're only interested in the vfo B digits after the first decimal point. That leaves the first two digit spots open for indicating something else ( if that's possible).
( Hi, Bud )

Paul WB2ABD

<

I understand Ian's point about "confusion in Diversity mode"; I suffered from that the first few hundred times I used it, too. However...I think I'd still like to see where VFO B "would jump to on TX" before engaging the SPLIT button. For me, a better solution would be to dim the VFO B display (relative to VFO A intensity) when in Diversity mode and Split has not been selected. (I have no idea if that would be possible.) The slowly blinking decimal point is a bit too subtle and requires me to stare at it far too long to be the "right" way to indicate Diversity mode for me.

Bud, W2RU

>
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

In reply to this post by Stewart@twinwood

>> In normal diversity reception, the display should show the *true*
>> VFO B frequency - reassuringly synchronized and slaved to VFO A. It
>> should only display that alternative frequency if SPLIT has
>> actually been selected.

Please, NO! One *wants* VFO B visible precisely so the split transmit
frequency can be set accurately without disengaging split. The VFO B
frequency (*not* the KRX3 frequency) should not be hidden or disabled
simply because it is not being used unless the operator chooses one of
the alternative display parameters.

More to the point, split or dual Rx should override an alternate (Time,
PA Temp, etc.) display in the VFO B area and restore VFO B control to
the encoder.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 3/5/2013 3:10 AM, Stewart wrote:

> Yes, I have found that confusing at times. It would be nice if that could be
> tidied up as well.
>
> 73
> Stewart G3RXQ
>
> On Tue, 5 Mar 2013 08:03:36 -0000, Ian White wrote:
>
>> Another source of confusion in Diversity mode is the frequency display
>> for VFO B, which is not the true frequency of that VFO. (Obscurely, it
>> is the frequency that VFO B *would* jump to on TX, *if* the operator
>> *also* chooses to engage SPLIT.) That false frequency indication can
>> easily mislead the operator into believing that the two VFOs have not
>> been successfully synchronized.
>>
>> In normal diversity reception, the display should show the *true* VFO B
>> frequency - reassuringly synchronized and slaved to VFO A. It should
>> only display that alternative frequency if SPLIT has actually been
>> selected.
>>
>>
>> 73 from Ian GM3SEK
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>
>
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gm3sek

Re: K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

In reply to this post by W2RU - Bud Hippisley

>> If the manual Link control is removed, Diversity would then become
the
>> easily accessible 'hold' feature of the SUB button (available if the
>> second receiver is present, otherwise having no effect).
>
>I would love having Diversity become the "easily accessible HOLD
feature of
>the SUB button", as suggested by Ian. But "if the manual Link control
is
>removed", how would one then engage it for non-Diversity applications?
>

Even if manual link control through the SUB button is disabled, the same
functions are still available through a macro: LN1(link) or LN0
(unlink).

>
>> In normal diversity reception, the display should show the *true* VFO
B
>> frequency - reassuringly synchronized and slaved to VFO A. It should
>> only display that alternative frequency if SPLIT has actually been
>> selected.
>
>I understand Ian's point about "confusion in Diversity mode"; I
suffered from
>that the first few hundred times I used it, too. However...I think I'd
still like to
>see where VFO B "would jump to on TX" before engaging the SPLIT button.
>For me, a better solution would be to dim the VFO B display (relative
to VFO
>A intensity) when in Diversity mode and Split has not been selected.
(I have
>no idea if that would be possible.)

>The slowly blinking decimal point is a bit
>too subtle and requires me to stare at it far too long to be the
"right" way to
>indicate Diversity mode for me.
>

That's for sure: the blinking decimal point - or points - are far too
easily overlooked. Worse still, without a close study of the manual
they are totally meaningless. We have just seen this embarrassingly
demonstrated at TX5K.

So please make the VFO link/sync status as obvious as possible: have the
VFO B display show the true VFO B frequency at all times - not blinking,
not blanked but simply telling the truth. (The only exception should be
after Diversity and Split have *both* been selected.)

73 from Ian GM3SEK

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gm3sek

Re: K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

>>> In normal diversity reception, the display should show the *true*
>>> VFO B frequency - reassuringly synchronized and slaved to VFO A. It
>>> should only display that alternative frequency if SPLIT has
>>> actually been selected.
>
>Please, NO! One *wants* VFO B visible precisely so the split transmit
>frequency can be set accurately without disengaging split.

"Set accurately without DISengaging split"? I'm confused; that comment
bears no relation to what I wrote.

Please read again what I wrote, Joe.

If Split is engaged within Diversity mode, my proposal would have VFOB
display the split TX frequency - exactly as it does now. But that
information should only be displayed AFTER the operator has actively
requested it by selecting Split.

My point is: if the operator has NOT chosen to select Split within
Diversity mode, then the present display is irrelevant and misleading.
It needs to be changed to show the true status, which is VFO B tracking
with VFO A on the same frequency.

73 from Ian GM3SEK

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

> "Set accurately without DISengaging split"? I'm confused; that
> comment bears no relation to what I wrote.

That should have been "without disengaging diversity".

> If Split is engaged within Diversity mode, my proposal would have VFOB
> display the split TX frequency - exactly as it does now. But that
> information should only be displayed AFTER the operator has actively
> requested it by selecting Split.

This is exactly what I *don't* want - I don't want to loose the ability
to read VFO B *even when in diversity* because it becomes impossible to
set a tentative split frequency without either engaging split or ending
diversity.

The display is VFO B *not* KRX3 receive frequency - the icon says "[B]"
not "[SUB]".

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 3/5/2013 11:16 AM, Ian White wrote:

>>>> In normal diversity reception, the display should show the *true*
>>>> VFO B frequency - reassuringly synchronized and slaved to VFO A. It
>>>> should only display that alternative frequency if SPLIT has
>>>> actually been selected.
>>
>> Please, NO! One *wants* VFO B visible precisely so the split transmit
>> frequency can be set accurately without disengaging split.
>
> "Set accurately without DISengaging split"? I'm confused; that comment
> bears no relation to what I wrote.
>
> Please read again what I wrote, Joe.
>
> If Split is engaged within Diversity mode, my proposal would have VFOB
> display the split TX frequency - exactly as it does now. But that
> information should only be displayed AFTER the operator has actively
> requested it by selecting Split.
>
> My point is: if the operator has NOT chosen to select Split within
> Diversity mode, then the present display is irrelevant and misleading.
> It needs to be changed to show the true status, which is VFO B tracking
> with VFO A on the same frequency.
>
>
> 73 from Ian GM3SEK
>
>
>

Richard Ferch

Re: K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

W4TV wrote:

> The display is VFO B *not* KRX3 receive frequency - the icon says "[B]"
> not "[SUB]".

This is a key point. Ian's first post in this thread makes it clear that
his mental model of the two displays is that they track the two
receivers. This mental model may work with a dual-receiver K3 in
non-diversity mode, but it is not the most appropriate mental model for
a dual-receiver K3 in diversity mode. In diversity mode VFO B does not
track with VFO A; it is the subRX that tracks with VFO A.

In diversity mode, from the point of view of operating the radio there
is a single receiver controlled by VFO A. This receiver uses twice as
much hardware as a normal receiver, and it allows two simultaneous
antenna inputs instead of only one, but operationally speaking it is a
single receiver. In other words, a K3 in diversity mode is functionally
similar to a single-receiver K3 or a dual-receiver K3 with the subRX
turned off: VFO A always displays the receiver frequency, and the VFO B
display indicates where the transmitter will transmit in SPLIT mode.

Switching from a VFO A vs. VFO B display model (the current design) to a
main RX vs. subRX display model, as Ian has suggested, would waste the
capability of the VFO B display in diversity mode (what's the point of
dedicating display real estate to a second frequency display if it is
forced to be identical to the first display?). Having the VFO B display
tell you where the transmitter would be if you invoked SPLIT, exactly
the same as it does in a single-receiver K3, is a more effective use of
the display resources, particularly for someone wishing to work a split
pileup on low bands.

73,
Rich VE3KI
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Edward R Cole

Re: K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

I am happy with the present "SUB" control functions.

I run diversity mode for eme (i.e. my main Rx receives vertical
polarity 2m and the sub-Rx receives horizontal polarity 2m). I run
in split mode to transmit using VFO-B, while my VFO-A stays tuned to
144.130 MHz. 144.130 is the center of a 60 KHz band that MAP65
receives. MAP65 runs JT65 to decode all signals inside the 60-KHz band.

I have yet to try diversity reception on HF, but have no reason for
the radio functions to be modified for diversity mode. Both
receivers need to be tuned to the same frequency when in diversity
reception so the VFO-A display is adequate. When running the sub-Rx
in non-diversity then VFO-B shows it if unlinked.

I vote no change. If this is to be changed then make it selectable
as a CONFIG menu item (if that is possible).

The KRX3 makes adaptive polarity reception of eme possible. No other
commercial radio is this possible that I am aware of. The IQ+ from
HB9DRI is a dedicated dual-Rx 2m direct conversion SDR which works
elegantly for this. But it is a special piece of equipment for only 2m-eme.

73, Ed - KL7UW

-------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2013 12:37:19 -0500
From: Richard Ferch <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the
Link/UnLink button.
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

W4TV wrote:

> The display is VFO B *not* KRX3 receive frequency - the icon says "[B]"
> not "[SUB]".

This is a key point. Ian's first post in this thread makes it clear that
his mental model of the two displays is that they track the two
receivers. This mental model may work with a dual-receiver K3 in
non-diversity mode, but it is not the most appropriate mental model for
a dual-receiver K3 in diversity mode. In diversity mode VFO B does not
track with VFO A; it is the subRX that tracks with VFO A.

In diversity mode, from the point of view of operating the radio there
is a single receiver controlled by VFO A. This receiver uses twice as
much hardware as a normal receiver, and it allows two simultaneous
antenna inputs instead of only one, but operationally speaking it is a
single receiver. In other words, a K3 in diversity mode is functionally
similar to a single-receiver K3 or a dual-receiver K3 with the subRX
turned off: VFO A always displays the receiver frequency, and the VFO B
display indicates where the transmitter will transmit in SPLIT mode.

Switching from a VFO A vs. VFO B display model (the current design) to a
main RX vs. subRX display model, as Ian has suggested, would waste the
capability of the VFO B display in diversity mode (what's the point of
dedicating display real estate to a second frequency display if it is
forced to be identical to the first display?). Having the VFO B display
tell you where the transmitter would be if you invoked SPLIT, exactly
the same as it does in a single-receiver K3, is a more effective use of
the display resources, particularly for someone wishing to work a split
pileup on low bands.

73,
Rich VE3KI

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Tony Estep

Re: K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 3:23 AM, Edward R Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I am happy with the present "SUB" control...
==========
I think the proposal is to keep that function as-is, but allow the
user to disable it so that the LINK won't come up accidentally when
turning on SUB. Like many DXers, I turn the SUB off and on many times
in an operating session when working a split pile-up, and an
inadvertent LINK is a nuisance. Eric's idea of keeping the present
functionality but making it optional seems like a solution that hurts
nobody and helps those like me.

Tony KT0NY

--
http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352
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Terry Posey

Re: K3 - Eric &Co.... Please relocate the Link/UnLink button.

...Eric's idea of keeping the present functionality but making it optional
seems like a solution that hurts nobody and helps those like me.

Tony KT0NY

Elecraft's added menu option will help everyone, especially DXpedition
operations. There is no downside and no impact to the current Link/UnLink
operator interface. The Link/UnLink button is not being relocated.

Terry K4RX

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