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K3 - FT8

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N2TK

K3 - FT8

Finally setting up FT8. I downloaded and installed WSJT-X v 1.8.0.

The print out instructions I have says to start with the GENERAL tab. But
there is no GENERAL tab. I have File, Configurations, View, Mode, Decode,
Save, Tools and Help. I also plan on using the Codec in the K3. This K3 has
been upgraded also with USB.

Can someone point me to the correct direction to get my K3 setup?

Also, I understand I need a way to keep better time for my K3. What's the
recommended software to do that?

Tnx for any feedback

73,

N2TK, Tony

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Cady, Fred-2

Re: K3 - FT8

File -> Settings and then you will see General.

Cheers,

Fred KE7X

________________________________
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of N2TK, Tony <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, May 7, 2018 4:40 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 - FT8

Finally setting up FT8. I downloaded and installed WSJT-X v 1.8.0.

The print out instructions I have says to start with the GENERAL tab. But
there is no GENERAL tab. I have File, Configurations, View, Mode, Decode,
Save, Tools and Help. I also plan on using the Codec in the K3. This K3 has
been upgraded also with USB.

Can someone point me to the correct direction to get my K3 setup?

Also, I understand I need a way to keep better time for my K3. What's the
recommended software to do that?

Tnx for any feedback

73,

N2TK, Tony

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Josh Fiden

Re: K3 - FT8

In reply to this post by N2TK

Meinberg NTP for time sync.

I used to use Dimension 4 but the consensus seems to be Meinberg is better. Never had issues with either.

73,
Josh W6XU

Sent from my mobile device

> On May 7, 2018, at 3:40 PM, N2TK, Tony <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Finally setting up FT8. I downloaded and installed WSJT-X v 1.8.0.
>
> The print out instructions I have says to start with the GENERAL tab. But
> there is no GENERAL tab. I have File, Configurations, View, Mode, Decode,
> Save, Tools and Help. I also plan on using the Codec in the K3. This K3 has
> been upgraded also with USB.
>
> Can someone point me to the correct direction to get my K3 setup?
>
>
>
> Also, I understand I need a way to keep better time for my K3. What's the
> recommended software to do that?
>
>
>
> Tnx for any feedback
>
> 73,
>
> N2TK, Tony
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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N2TK

Re: K3 - FT8

In reply to this post by Cady, Fred-2

Tnx Fred.

Tony

From: Cady, Fred [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2018 6:54 PM
To: N2TK, Tony <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - FT8

File -> Settings and then you will see General.

Cheers,

Fred KE7X

_____

From: [hidden email]
<mailto:[hidden email]> <[hidden email]
<mailto:[hidden email]> > on behalf of N2TK, Tony
<[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> >
Sent: Monday, May 7, 2018 4:40 PM
To: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 - FT8

Finally setting up FT8. I downloaded and installed WSJT-X v 1.8.0.

The print out instructions I have says to start with the GENERAL tab. But
there is no GENERAL tab. I have File, Configurations, View, Mode, Decode,
Save, Tools and Help. I also plan on using the Codec in the K3. This K3 has
been upgraded also with USB.

Can someone point me to the correct direction to get my K3 setup?

Also, I understand I need a way to keep better time for my K3. What's the
recommended software to do that?

Tnx for any feedback

73,

N2TK, Tony

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Nr4c

Re: K3 - FT8

In reply to this post by N2TK

Start with the Elecraft K3S manual section on DATA modes with soundcardx.

Don’t worry about the time on the radio, the important clock is the one on the computer. TX and RX must start on time with everyone else. Rest the correct time just before each session from Windows clock settings or install a net clock service.

Once you have the computer and radio setup and talking to one another and you audio drive to radio set correctly, and DATA mode should drop right in.

If in doubt, see Don’s website (wa3fpr.com) for more info.

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill

> On May 7, 2018, at 6:40 PM, N2TK, Tony <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Finally setting up FT8. I downloaded and installed WSJT-X v 1.8.0.
>
> The print out instructions I have says to start with the GENERAL tab. But
> there is no GENERAL tab. I have File, Configurations, View, Mode, Decode,
> Save, Tools and Help. I also plan on using the Codec in the K3. This K3 has
> been upgraded also with USB.
>
> Can someone point me to the correct direction to get my K3 setup?
>
>
>
> Also, I understand I need a way to keep better time for my K3. What's the
> recommended software to do that?
>
>
>
> Tnx for any feedback
>
> 73,
>
> N2TK, Tony
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Don Wilhelm

Re: K3 - FT8

That is www.w3fpr.com.
Scroll the left column to the lat article and click on the link for the
how and why of setting the audio level for TX 4 to 5 bars on the ALC meter.

I am much older than the assignment if "WA" callsigns. Got my 60 year
ARRL pin.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 5/8/2018 10:11 PM, Nr4c wrote:

> Start with the Elecraft K3S manual section on DATA modes with soundcardx.
>
> Don’t worry about the time on the radio, the important clock is the one on the computer. TX and RX must start on time with everyone else. Rest the correct time just before each session from Windows clock settings or install a net clock service.
>
> Once you have the computer and radio setup and talking to one another and you audio drive to radio set correctly, and DATA mode should drop right in.
>
> If in doubt, see Don’s website (wa3fpr.com) for more info.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ...nr4c. bill
>
>
>> On May 7, 2018, at 6:40 PM, N2TK, Tony <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Finally setting up FT8. I downloaded and installed WSJT-X v 1.8.0.
>>
>> The print out instructions I have says to start with the GENERAL tab. But
>> there is no GENERAL tab. I have File, Configurations, View, Mode, Decode,
>> Save, Tools and Help. I also plan on using the Codec in the K3. This K3 has
>> been upgraded also with USB.
>>
>> Can someone point me to the correct direction to get my K3 setup?
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, I understand I need a way to keep better time for my K3. What's the
>> recommended software to do that?
>>
>>
>>
>> Tnx for any feedback
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> N2TK, Tony
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

G3XAQ

Re: K3 - FT8

Don,

I suggest you need to draw attention in your web page and general advice on
here to the requirement to choose the AUDIO FREQUENCY with some care when
setting up ALC for FT8 via the TUNE button in WSJT-X.

The problem seems to be that the DSP sampling rate inside the K3 must not be
related to the TUNE frequency. Ideally I expect they should be co-prime, or
something like that, to avoid aliasing artifacts in the ALC bargraph
readout. The actual frequency you should choose is probably affected by PC
and K3 clock frequency accuracy becasue a change of just a few Hertz can
have a dramatic effect.

In my case, the default WSJT-X tune frequency of 1000Hz is about as bad as
you can get. My ALC bargraph oscillates with a beat frequency of not much
more than 1Hz. And the ALC goes from zero to 6 bars! What is really
confusing is that WSJT-X leaves the tune frequency at whatever it was when
you last transmitted, so if you tune around, click on some signals, have a
listen and then try using TUNE the audio frequency could be anywhere unless
you take specific action.

Now that I see what is happening the solution is simple and obvious. If the
ALC bargraph is unstable then move the TX frequency 10Hz and it should
become sane. Only then can you go through the procedure you describe to set
the PC output level, WSJT-X power level and LINE level for the magical 4
solid plus one flickering bar.

Of course, once you begin making FT8 QSOs and move transmit audio frequency
it is entirely possible you will hit on a "bad" interaction with the K3 DSP
and the ALC bargraph will be all over the place again. As far as I can see
with an external power meter this ALC anomaly does not affect the
transmitted signal, but I've not looked into this in detail.

73, Alan G3XAQ

--
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ANDY DURBIN

K3 - FT8

In reply to this post by N2TK

"What is really confusing is that WSJT-X leaves the tune frequency at whatever it was when you last transmitted, so if you tune around, click on some signals, have a listen and then try using TUNE the audio frequency could be anywhere unless you take specific action."

Nothing to get confused about. The tune audio frequency is always the frequency marked by the TX cursor on WideGraph and indicated in the TX frequency box of Main. Much earlier versions of WSJT-X had a bug which caused the tune frequency to be random but, to the best of my knowledge, that was fixed long before FT8 mode was introduced.

If you don't want the TX frequency to change, simply click "Hold Tx Freq".

I can't comment on the K3 reaction to FT8 tune frequency. My TS-590S has no such issue.

73,

Andy k3wyc
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Don Wilhelm

Re: K3 - FT8

In reply to this post by G3XAQ

Alan,

That is getting into issues associated with WSJT-X and FT8.
My website article is written to apply to all soundcard data modes and
not FT8 specifically. There was no intention for addressing all the
various data modes that could be used. All of them require the right
amount of audio drive.

You should look to the FT8 forums for questions about that aliasing. If
it were a K3 problem, that aliasing would also be happening with other
data modes as well.
Other soundcard data modes do not have a problem with a TUNE at 1000 Hz,
so why is FT8 any different?

Of course, if your soundcard is generating harmonics or significant IMD
before it reaches the K3, there is not much one can do other than
getting a different soundcard.

I don't know about the "moving 10kHz" thing, but I have heard reports of
similar symptoms.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 5/13/2018 4:22 PM, G3XAQ wrote:

> Don,
>
> I suggest you need to draw attention in your web page and general advice on
> here to the requirement to choose the AUDIO FREQUENCY with some care when
> setting up ALC for FT8 via the TUNE button in WSJT-X.
>
> The problem seems to be that the DSP sampling rate inside the K3 must not be
> related to the TUNE frequency. Ideally I expect they should be co-prime, or
> something like that, to avoid aliasing artifacts in the ALC bargraph
> readout. The actual frequency you should choose is probably affected by PC
> and K3 clock frequency accuracy becasue a change of just a few Hertz can
> have a dramatic effect.
>
> In my case, the default WSJT-X tune frequency of 1000Hz is about as bad as
> you can get. My ALC bargraph oscillates with a beat frequency of not much
> more than 1Hz. And the ALC goes from zero to 6 bars! What is really
> confusing is that WSJT-X leaves the tune frequency at whatever it was when
> you last transmitted, so if you tune around, click on some signals, have a
> listen and then try using TUNE the audio frequency could be anywhere unless
> you take specific action.
>

ANDY DURBIN

Re: K3 - FT8

In reply to this post by ANDY DURBIN

I should have said that this explanation is only valid with WSJT-X split mode is not in use. When split mode is used the situation is either simpler or more complex depending on your perspective.

In WSJT-X split mode the audio frequency is constrained to the range 1500-2000 Hz. If the TX cursor is outside the range 1500-2000 on Widegraph then the TX VFO frequency is incremented or decremented in 500 Hz steps such that audio frequency remains in the range 1500-2000 Hz.

A picture is worth a thousand words and a picture can be found on page 35 of this presentation:

http://www.w7tbc.org/downloads.php?do=file&id=387

73,

Andy k3wyc

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G3XAQ

Re: K3 - FT8

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

Don,

I'm puzzled you when you say

"If it were a K3 problem, that aliasing would also be happening with
other data modes as well. Other soundcard data modes do not have a
problem with a TUNE at 1000 Hz"

I can reproduce this problem with my K3 with MMVARI on other data modes.
I have tried it with another PC and sound card and again I can still see
the problem. So I suspect that feeding a pure sine wave from any source
into LINE IN can cause ALC bargraph artefacts at certain specific audio
frequencies.

This is not FT8 specific, nor is it audio harmonics or IMD. It is simply
an unfortunate choice of audio tone frequency interacting with the K3
internals. Or at least that is my best guess from the evidence I see
here. The only constant throughout these tests is my K3. If it is faulty
then OK, no big deal.

I hoped by reporting this effect on this mailing list I might help the
others who have also commented about it. If there is a consensus that
it's specific to my setup then OK. I can reliably avoid my problem by
changing the audio tone frequency just a few Hz so I will just do that
and get on with my life.

73, Alan G3XAQ

On 13/05/2018 23:20, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Alan,
>
> That is getting into issues associated with WSJT-X and FT8.
> My website article is written to apply to all soundcard data modes and
> not FT8 specifically. There was no intention for addressing all the
> various data modes that could be used. All of them require the right
> amount of audio drive.
>
> You should look to the FT8 forums for questions about that aliasing. If
> it were a K3 problem, that aliasing would also be happening with other
> data modes as well.
> Other soundcard data modes do not have a problem with a TUNE at 1000 Hz,
> so why is FT8 any different?
>
> Of course, if your soundcard is generating harmonics or significant IMD
> before it reaches the K3, there is not much one can do other than
> getting a different soundcard.
>
> I don't know about the "moving 10kHz" thing, but I have heard reports of
> similar symptoms.
>
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 5/13/2018 4:22 PM, G3XAQ wrote:
>> Don,
>>
>> I suggest you need to draw attention in your web page and general advice on
>> here to the requirement to choose the AUDIO FREQUENCY with some care when
>> setting up ALC for FT8 via the TUNE button in WSJT-X.
>>
>> The problem seems to be that the DSP sampling rate inside the K3 must not be
>> related to the TUNE frequency. Ideally I expect they should be co-prime, or
>> something like that, to avoid aliasing artifacts in the ALC bargraph
>> readout. The actual frequency you should choose is probably affected by PC
>> and K3 clock frequency accuracy becasue a change of just a few Hertz can
>> have a dramatic effect.
>>
>> In my case, the default WSJT-X tune frequency of 1000Hz is about as bad as
>> you can get. My ALC bargraph oscillates with a beat frequency of not much
>> more than 1Hz. And the ALC goes from zero to 6 bars! What is really
>> confusing is that WSJT-X leaves the tune frequency at whatever it was when
>> you last transmitted, so if you tune around, click on some signals, have a
>> listen and then try using TUNE the audio frequency could be anywhere unless
>> you take specific action.
>>
>

--

Alan Ibbetson
[hidden email]
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Don Wilhelm

Re: K3 - FT8

Alan,

How high is the input level to the K3 Line IN? I am wondering if you
are driving the transformers in the audio in slightly into saturation.

Try lowering the soundcard output and increasing the LINE gain.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 5/14/2018 3:05 AM, Alan Ibbetson wrote:

Gordon LaPoint

Re: K3 - FT8

In reply to this post by G3XAQ

This problem has been reported in the past, and is known to be a K3
problem. Just choose a slightly different audio frequency
for the tune up.
It does show up with other sound card modes.
As far as I know ALL K3's have this "problem".
My K3 (sn 5540 or so, not at home and don't remember exactly) has had
this problem since day one, and still does even with ALL upgrades
installed, including the new synthesizer upgrade (KSYN3AUPG).

Gordon - N1MGO

On 05/14/2018 03:05 AM, Alan Ibbetson wrote:

--
Gordon - N1MGO

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Gordon LaPoint

Re: K3 - FT8

In reply to this post by G3XAQ

The problem was discussed in this thread last year.
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Odd-ALC-behavior-td7633052i20.html

Gordon - N1MGO
On 05/14/2018 03:05 AM, Alan Ibbetson wrote:

> Don,
>
> I'm puzzled you when you say
>
> "If it were a K3 problem, that aliasing would also be happening with
> other data modes as well. Other soundcard data modes do not have a
> problem with a TUNE at 1000 Hz"
>
> I can reproduce this problem with my K3 with MMVARI on other data
> modes. I have tried it with another PC and sound card and again I can
> still see the problem. So I suspect that feeding a pure sine wave from
> any source into LINE IN can cause ALC bargraph artefacts at certain
> specific audio frequencies.
>
> This is not FT8 specific, nor is it audio harmonics or IMD. It is
> simply an unfortunate choice of audio tone frequency interacting with
> the K3 internals. Or at least that is my best guess from the evidence
> I see here. The only constant throughout these tests is my K3. If it
> is faulty then OK, no big deal.
>
> I hoped by reporting this effect on this mailing list I might help the
> others who have also commented about it. If there is a consensus that
> it's specific to my setup then OK. I can reliably avoid my problem by
> changing the audio tone frequency just a few Hz so I will just do that
> and get on with my life.
>
> 73, Alan G3XAQ
>
> On 13/05/2018 23:20, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> Alan,
>>
>> That is getting into issues associated with WSJT-X and FT8.
>> My website article is written to apply to all soundcard data modes and
>> not FT8 specifically. There was no intention for addressing all the
>> various data modes that could be used. All of them require the right
>> amount of audio drive.
>>
>> You should look to the FT8 forums for questions about that aliasing. If
>> it were a K3 problem, that aliasing would also be happening with other
>> data modes as well.
>> Other soundcard data modes do not have a problem with a TUNE at 1000 Hz,
>> so why is FT8 any different?
>>
>> Of course, if your soundcard is generating harmonics or significant IMD
>> before it reaches the K3, there is not much one can do other than
>> getting a different soundcard.
>>
>> I don't know about the "moving 10kHz" thing, but I have heard reports of
>> similar symptoms.
>>
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> On 5/13/2018 4:22 PM, G3XAQ wrote:
>>> Don,
>>>
>>> I suggest you need to draw attention in your web page and general
>>> advice on
>>> here to the requirement to choose the AUDIO FREQUENCY with some care
>>> when
>>> setting up ALC for FT8 via the TUNE button in WSJT-X.
>>>
>>> The problem seems to be that the DSP sampling rate inside the K3
>>> must not be
>>> related to the TUNE frequency. Ideally I expect they should be
>>> co-prime, or
>>> something like that, to avoid aliasing artifacts in the ALC bargraph
>>> readout. The actual frequency you should choose is probably affected
>>> by PC
>>> and K3 clock frequency accuracy becasue a change of just a few Hertz
>>> can
>>> have a dramatic effect.
>>>
>>> In my case, the default WSJT-X tune frequency of 1000Hz is about as
>>> bad as
>>> you can get. My ALC bargraph oscillates with a beat frequency of not
>>> much
>>> more than 1Hz. And the ALC goes from zero to 6 bars! What is really
>>> confusing is that WSJT-X leaves the tune frequency at whatever it
>>> was when
>>> you last transmitted, so if you tune around, click on some signals,
>>> have a
>>> listen and then try using TUNE the audio frequency could be anywhere
>>> unless
>>> you take specific action.
>>>
>>
>

G3XAQ

Re: K3 - FT8

Thanks for this, Gordon. I failed to search properly and missed that
previous thread. Elecraft ought to at least acknowledge and document the
issue even if they don't fix it. I did some googling and I now see that
this is a well known and widespread problem. It seems to have a well
known set of solutions, discussed for example here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither

So it does seem fixable in principle but it will involve engineering and
business trade-offs which only Elecraft themselves can address.

73, Alan G3XAQ

On 14/05/2018 12:52, Gordon LaPoint wrote:

> The problem was discussed in this thread last year.
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Odd-ALC-behavior-td7633052i20.html
>
> Gordon - N1MGO
> On 05/14/2018 03:05 AM, Alan Ibbetson wrote:
>> Don,
>>
>> I'm puzzled you when you say
>>
>> "If it were a K3 problem, that aliasing would also be happening with
>> other data modes as well. Other soundcard data modes do not have a
>> problem with a TUNE at 1000 Hz"
>>
>> I can reproduce this problem with my K3 with MMVARI on other data
>> modes. I have tried it with another PC and sound card and again I can
>> still see the problem. So I suspect that feeding a pure sine wave from
>> any source into LINE IN can cause ALC bargraph artefacts at certain
>> specific audio frequencies.
>>
>> This is not FT8 specific, nor is it audio harmonics or IMD. It is
>> simply an unfortunate choice of audio tone frequency interacting with
>> the K3 internals. Or at least that is my best guess from the evidence
>> I see here. The only constant throughout these tests is my K3. If it
>> is faulty then OK, no big deal.
>>
>> I hoped by reporting this effect on this mailing list I might help the
>> others who have also commented about it. If there is a consensus that
>> it's specific to my setup then OK. I can reliably avoid my problem by
>> changing the audio tone frequency just a few Hz so I will just do that
>> and get on with my life.
>>
>> 73, Alan G3XAQ
>>
>> On 13/05/2018 23:20, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>>> Alan,
>>>
>>> That is getting into issues associated with WSJT-X and FT8.
>>> My website article is written to apply to all soundcard data modes and
>>> not FT8 specifically. There was no intention for addressing all the
>>> various data modes that could be used. All of them require the right
>>> amount of audio drive.
>>>
>>> You should look to the FT8 forums for questions about that aliasing. If
>>> it were a K3 problem, that aliasing would also be happening with other
>>> data modes as well.
>>> Other soundcard data modes do not have a problem with a TUNE at 1000 Hz,
>>> so why is FT8 any different?
>>>
>>> Of course, if your soundcard is generating harmonics or significant IMD
>>> before it reaches the K3, there is not much one can do other than
>>> getting a different soundcard.
>>>
>>> I don't know about the "moving 10kHz" thing, but I have heard reports of
>>> similar symptoms.
>>>
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Don W3FPR
>>>
>>> On 5/13/2018 4:22 PM, G3XAQ wrote:
>>>> Don,
>>>>
>>>> I suggest you need to draw attention in your web page and general
>>>> advice on
>>>> here to the requirement to choose the AUDIO FREQUENCY with some care
>>>> when
>>>> setting up ALC for FT8 via the TUNE button in WSJT-X.
>>>>
>>>> The problem seems to be that the DSP sampling rate inside the K3
>>>> must not be
>>>> related to the TUNE frequency. Ideally I expect they should be
>>>> co-prime, or
>>>> something like that, to avoid aliasing artifacts in the ALC bargraph
>>>> readout. The actual frequency you should choose is probably affected
>>>> by PC
>>>> and K3 clock frequency accuracy becasue a change of just a few Hertz
>>>> can
>>>> have a dramatic effect.
>>>>
>>>> In my case, the default WSJT-X tune frequency of 1000Hz is about as
>>>> bad as
>>>> you can get. My ALC bargraph oscillates with a beat frequency of not
>>>> much
>>>> more than 1Hz. And the ALC goes from zero to 6 bars! What is really
>>>> confusing is that WSJT-X leaves the tune frequency at whatever it
>>>> was when
>>>> you last transmitted, so if you tune around, click on some signals,
>>>> have a
>>>> listen and then try using TUNE the audio frequency could be anywhere
>>>> unless
>>>> you take specific action.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

Tony Estep

Re: K3 - FT8

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 8:01 AM, Alan Ibbetson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ...I now see that this is a well known and widespread problem....discussed
> for example here
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither
>
> ...On 14/05/2018 12:52, Gordon LaPoint wrote:
>
>> The problem was discussed in this thread last year.
>> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Odd-ALC-behavior-
>> td7633052i20.html
>>
>> Gordon - N1MGO
>>
> =================

This has been very interesting and informative. Apparently once this
strange glitch is understood, one can easily work around it. Thanks to Alan
and Gordon for bringing this up and elucidating it.

73,
Tony KT0NY
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