K3 Firmware 2.10,1.81 problems Update

[A.K.Forrest]

Dear All,

did some more on the problem. With MixW using modes RTTY or RTTYR when
controlled by a K3 in data mode
the frequency scale moves to the right but the signal moves to the left.
They should obviously be in step i.e the
display should show a signal at a constant frequency as the radio is
tuned. This works
correctly in USB and LSB.  MixW thinks the radio mixer frequency is on
the opposite side of the signal to reality.

To attempt to solve the problem I reloaded the K3 software; no change. I
then went back to the-non beta 2.02 etc
software; everything now working correctly.  I am pretty sure that this
is a real problem but maybe only for MixW
users using the RTTY modes. It is a problem for us though, because by
using USB or LSB modes in MixW
automatically switches the K3 to the same modes. This prevents use of
the K3 data mode features such as prevention
of compression and other data special settings.

Julian (G4ILO) thanks for your interest. All my CAT corrections are zero
in MixW also. Interesting that you say there
was some change in the last release - "K3 was erroneously reporting the
data modes as reversed" This looks very much
like the problem but in the case of RTTY it seems it was correct but is
now incorrect.

Hope this all gets sorted in version 2.11  Keep up the good work on the
software and I agree with the release of beta
software so that we can test all the nooks and crannies.

 73 Andrew M1KAZ

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[Julian, G4ILO]

A.K.Forrest wrote

Dear All,

did some more on the problem. With MixW using modes RTTY or RTTYR when
controlled by a K3 in data mode
the frequency scale moves to the right but the signal moves to the left.
They should obviously be in step i.e the
display should show a signal at a constant frequency as the radio is
tuned. This works
correctly in USB and LSB.  MixW thinks the radio mixer frequency is on
the opposite side of the signal to reality.

To attempt to solve the problem I reloaded the K3 software; no change. I
then went back to the-non beta 2.02 etc
software; everything now working correctly.  I am pretty sure that this
is a real problem but maybe only for MixW
users using the RTTY modes. It is a problem for us though, because by
using USB or LSB modes in MixW
automatically switches the K3 to the same modes. This prevents use of
the K3 data mode features such as prevention
of compression and other data special settings.

Julian (G4ILO) thanks for your interest. All my CAT corrections are zero
in MixW also. Interesting that you say there
was some change in the last release - "K3 was erroneously reporting the
data modes as reversed" This looks very much
like the problem but in the case of RTTY it seems it was correct but is
now incorrect.

Hope this all gets sorted in version 2.11  Keep up the good work on the
software and I agree with the release of beta
software so that we can test all the nooks and crannies.

 73 Andrew M1KAZ

I think this is a problem with MixW, not the K3 firmware, which may have inadvertently been correct due to the K3's reversal of its mode reporting.

In my version of MixW the radio type is set to Elecraft K2. There is no K3 option. The K2 option was a derivative of the Kenwood option, in fact it is listed under Kenwood on the CAT selection dialog.

I was one of the first K2 owners to use MixW, many years ago. Unfortunately my memory now is not very good, but I seem to recall that I originally had the exact same problem as you with the K2 and MixW. I think that the K2 used opposite sidebands to the Kenwood radios (and probably to the K3 as well.) I emailed Nick, the developer of MixW, about it, and he fixed it in the next release. So if my supposition is correct, the K2 option in MixW works right for the K2, but not for the K3.

I think MixW needs to be corrected to work with the current K3 firmware, which is now correctly reporting the data modes in software to correspond with what is shown on the front panel. In the meantime, you might find that switching to the TS-2000 option solves the problem. I very much doubt if MixW uses any commands that are exclusive to the Elecraft radios, so this is almost certain to be OK.

[Julian, G4ILO]

No, the TS-2000 option doesn't work either. I have a feeling that the issue with the K2 that I referred to affected only certain bands, where the K2 switched the sideband used by default. It only became apparent to me because I used a macro to bring a selected signal to the center of the passband and on some bands the signal moved the wrong way.

I can't find an option that works right with the K3 at the moment. However, the K3 is now correctly reporting the data modes as mode 6 = normal and mode 9 = reversed, as defined in the reference manual. Previously it had them reversed. I think that rather than redefine the mode values so that they are the opposite of the K2, MixW needs to be updated. I expect that Simon has already updated HRD to take account of the change, as he was told about it a couple of weeks ago.

[Rich]

As Julian suggested the problem is in MixW.  It has been 40 years since I had the RTTY training course in the NAVY, but, it has to do with the convoluted history of RTTY.  Although SSB is on the LSB on the HF bands below 30 Meters and USB on those bands above 30 meters (Many reasons given for this most of which are not correct) RTTY was based upon the frequency of Mark (2125) and Space (2295) and the surplus military equipment available, unless you could afford some of the high dollar HAL equipment (which was also used by the military).  Military protocol was to have the Mark the lowest tone in frequency. This was ok with most equipment made BPC (Before Personnel Computers).  The PC brought out the conversion of telephone modems, use of the modem IC’s and finally the PC sound card for generating these tones. If you built a TNC out of a modem chip and did not include a reverse switch you were stuck to either the low or high bands.  This was fixed on the PC with a button to reverse the signal that you could click on and copying.  Some of the Rigs treat RTTY as SSB, others put RTTY so that the Mark is always the lowest frequency transmitted regardless of the band selected, and RTTYR reverses this.  I have no idea what the protocol is for DATA (perhaps Elecraft can tell us.)  As an experiment, try switching rigs in MixW and observe what is happening to the signal frequency.  You wil not be able to chang frequency with MixW but you can see what happens to the signal as you turn the dial on the RIG.

Rich,
KE0X

[Joe Subich, W4TV-3]

> RTTY was based upon the frequency
> of Mark (2125) and Space (2295) and the surplus military
> equipment available, unless you could afford some of the high
> dollar HAL equipment (which was also used by the military).

No, RTTY is always "Shift low" - that is Mark is the HIGHER
RF frequency and space is the LOWER RF frequency.  When the
audio tones 2215 and 2295 are applied to a LSB transmitter
in AFSK this results in the correct shift.

> I have no idea what the protocol is for DATA (perhaps Elecraft
> can tell us.)  As an experiment, try switching rigs in MixW and
> observe what is happening to the signal frequency.  

FSK D and AFSK A receive in LSB while PSK D and DATA A receive in
USB for compatibility with the (backward) convention of most non-
RTTY software writers (PSK32, MFSK, etc.).

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Rich (KE0X)
> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 4:49 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Firmware 2.10,1.81 problems Update
>
>
>
> As Julian suggested the problem is in MixW.  It has been 40
> years since I had the RTTY training course in the NAVY, but,
> it has to do with the convoluted history of RTTY.  Although
> SSB is on the LSB on the HF bands below 30 Meters and USB on
> those bands above 30 meters (Many reasons given for this most
> of which are not correct) RTTY was based upon the frequency
> of Mark (2125) and Space (2295) and the surplus military
> equipment available, unless you could afford some of the high
> dollar HAL equipment (which was also used by the military).  
> Military protocol was to have the Mark the lowest tone in
> frequency. This was ok with most equipment made BPC (Before
> Personnel Computers).  The PC brought out the conversion of
> telephone modems, use of the modem IC’s and finally the PC
> sound card for generating these tones. If you built a TNC out
> of a modem chip and did not include a reverse switch you were
> stuck to either the low or high bands.  This was fixed on the
> PC with a button to reverse the signal that you could click
> on and copying.  Some of the Rigs treat RTTY as SSB, others
> put RTTY so that the Mark is always the lowest frequency
> transmitted regardless of the band selected, and RTTYR
> reverses this.  I have no idea what the protocol is for DATA
> (perhaps Elecraft can tell us.)  As an experiment, try
> switching rigs in MixW and observe what is happening to the
> signal frequency.  You wil not be able to chang frequency
> with MixW but you can see what happens to the signal as you
> turn the dial on the RIG.
>
> Rich,
> KE0X
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/K3-Firmware-2.10%2C1.81-problems-Update-

tp18154703p18163577.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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[Jack Smith-6]

Those of us who have been around RTTY before the days of electronic
printers remember the second meaning of LSMFT - low space means fine
teletype. (refers to the RF frequency, not the demodulated audio of course.)


Jack K8ZOA
www.cliftonlaboratories.com


Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>> RTTY was based upon the frequency
>> of Mark (2125) and Space (2295) and the surplus military
>> equipment available, unless you could afford some of the high
>> dollar HAL equipment (which was also used by the military).
>>    
>
> No, RTTY is always "Shift low" - that is Mark is the HIGHER
> RF frequency and space is the LOWER RF frequency.  When the
> audio tones 2215 and 2295 are applied to a LSB transmitter
> in AFSK this results in the correct shift.
>
>  
>> I have no idea what the protocol is for DATA (perhaps Elecraft
>> can tell us.)  As an experiment, try switching rigs in MixW and
>> observe what is happening to the signal frequency.  
>>    
>
> FSK D and AFSK A receive in LSB while PSK D and DATA A receive in
> USB for compatibility with the (backward) convention of most non-
> RTTY software writers (PSK32, MFSK, etc.).
>
> 73,
>
>    ... Joe, W4TV
>  
>
>
>
>
>  
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Rich (KE0X)
>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 4:49 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Firmware 2.10,1.81 problems Update
>>
>>
>>
>> As Julian suggested the problem is in MixW.  It has been 40
>> years since I had the RTTY training course in the NAVY, but,
>> it has to do with the convoluted history of RTTY.  Although
>> SSB is on the LSB on the HF bands below 30 Meters and USB on
>> those bands above 30 meters (Many reasons given for this most
>> of which are not correct) RTTY was based upon the frequency
>> of Mark (2125) and Space (2295) and the surplus military
>> equipment available, unless you could afford some of the high
>> dollar HAL equipment (which was also used by the military).  
>> Military protocol was to have the Mark the lowest tone in
>> frequency. This was ok with most equipment made BPC (Before
>> Personnel Computers).  The PC brought out the conversion of
>> telephone modems, use of the modem IC’s and finally the PC
>> sound card for generating these tones. If you built a TNC out
>> of a modem chip and did not include a reverse switch you were
>> stuck to either the low or high bands.  This was fixed on the
>> PC with a button to reverse the signal that you could click
>> on and copying.  Some of the Rigs treat RTTY as SSB, others
>> put RTTY so that the Mark is always the lowest frequency
>> transmitted regardless of the band selected, and RTTYR
>> reverses this.  I have no idea what the protocol is for DATA
>> (perhaps Elecraft can tell us.)  As an experiment, try
>> switching rigs in MixW and observe what is happening to the
>> signal frequency.  You wil not be able to chang frequency
>> with MixW but you can see what happens to the signal as you
>> turn the dial on the RIG.
>>
>> Rich,
>> KE0X
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://www.nabble.com/K3-Firmware-2.10%2C1.81-problems-Update-
>>    
> tp18154703p18163577.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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[Julian, G4ILO]

Joe Subich, W4TV-3 wrote

FSK D and AFSK A receive in LSB while PSK D and DATA A receive in
USB for compatibility with the (backward) convention of most non-
RTTY software writers (PSK32, MFSK, etc.).

... which makes it difficult for any program to know what to do since at the moment it is (almost) impossible for a program to tell which of these data mode options have been selected on the radio.