[K3] Hearing aids, meet K3

[Don Putnick-4]

So I finally accepted the fact that my hearing isn't what it used to be. I got my hearing tested and hearing aids are in order. No simple hearing aids for me, though. I want the high-tech ones with multiple programs for different environments. I'm interested in how others with hearing aids adjust the K3 receive equalization and AGC to match their hearing aids, or vice versa. Thanks much!

73 Don NA6Z
K3-KPA500-KAT500
QRZ? QRZ?
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[k6dgw]

I've finally accepted the fact that I'm damn near deaf, way too many
close explosions in my 20's.  My hearing aids work really great.
Unfortunately, unless you're a US Veteran, they're going to be costly.
Mine are about $6K a pair, and they have multiple programs, when they
sense music they change, and when they sense speech, they change again.
  I'm heading toward totally deaf, not sure what I'll do for CW, but
working on it.

Bottom line, if you can afford the new digital ones, it's worth it and
then some. They really changed my life.  Ask me about the K3 EQ.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013
- www.cqp.org

On 8/6/2013 8:06 PM, Don Putnick wrote:
> So I finally accepted the fact that my hearing isn't what it used to
> be. I got my hearing tested and hearing aids are in order. No simple
> hearing aids for me, though. I want the high-tech ones with multiple
> programs for different environments. I'm interested in how others
> with hearing aids adjust the K3 receive equalization and AGC to match
> their hearing aids, or vice versa. Thanks much!

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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Don,

No adjustment to the K3 should be necessary.  Your audiologist should
adjust your hearing aids to compensate for your hearing loss, and after
that is done, you can adjust the K3 RX EQ for your personal preferences.

I have a program in my aids that has no noise reduction, and expands my
hearing to be as flat as possible - that is my "music program" -
sustained musical notes do not make the aids "think" that is noise and
suppress it - I like to hear music as it was intended to sound. That is
the program I use in normal household (and ham radio) environments.

However, I also have 2 programs known as "speech in noise" that do offer
noise cancellation.  Those help in noisy environments such as
restaurants.  The most severe of which cancels sound from the rear so I
can best understand the person who is directly in front of me.

Work with your audiologist to get the best performance from your hearing
aids in those environments that you value the most, and after that, you
can make your choices about how you might want to change the response of
your K3.  My K3 RX EQ settings are all set to zero - my hearing aids are
set for maximum intelligibility.  YMMV.

BTW, I normally use the K3 with speakers (the XYL does not object). If I
must use headphones, the hearing aids come out.  I may b unique because
my lower range hearing without the aids is normal, so I have built-in
low pass filters in my ears.  Again, YMMV.

73,
Don W3FPR

73,
Don W3FPR
On 8/6/2013 11:06 PM, Don Putnick wrote:
> So I finally accepted the fact that my hearing isn't what it used to be. I got my hearing tested and hearing aids are in order. No simple hearing aids for me, though. I want the high-tech ones with multiple programs for different environments. I'm interested in how others with hearing aids adjust the K3 receive equalization and AGC to match their hearing aids, or vice versa. Thanks much!
>
>

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[Jim Brown-10]

On 8/6/2013 8:45 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> I may b unique because my lower range hearing without the aids is
> normal, so I have built-in low pass filters in my ears.

That's entirely normal, Don. In general, hearing loss starts at the high
end and moves down.  Many folks with a lot of hearing loss still hear a
lot of low end. The exception is when for one reason or another we are
exposed to strong noise at a specific frequencies, or a specific range
of frequencies, in which case we develop a notch in that range.

The problem is that speech intelligibility depends on sounds in the
range of 500 Hz - 4 kHz, with the 2 kHz octave being most important, the
1 kHz octave close behind.  That's why telephones and ham radio, with
bandwidth limited to about 500 Hz to 3kHz,  work just fine. Energy above
4 kHz helps, but energy below about 350 Hz makes no contribution, and
often makes things worse.  The scientists at Bell Labs figured this
stuff out early in the 20th century.

73, Jim K9YC
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[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

> The problem is that speech intelligibility depends on sounds in the
> range of 500 Hz - 4 kHz, with the 2 kHz octave being most important,
> the 1 kHz octave close behind.

More specifically, the range(s) from roughly 250 to 750 Hz and 1400 to
2400 Hz are most critical to speech intelligibility.  Both ill fated
"narrow band voice modulation" and split band audio processing relied
on that understanding as did some early data compression algorithms
for digital voice.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 8/7/2013 5:23 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 8/6/2013 8:45 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> I may b unique because my lower range hearing without the aids is
>> normal, so I have built-in low pass filters in my ears.
>
> That's entirely normal, Don. In general, hearing loss starts at the high
> end and moves down.  Many folks with a lot of hearing loss still hear a
> lot of low end. The exception is when for one reason or another we are
> exposed to strong noise at a specific frequencies, or a specific range
> of frequencies, in which case we develop a notch in that range.
>
> The problem is that speech intelligibility depends on sounds in the
> range of 500 Hz - 4 kHz, with the 2 kHz octave being most important, the
> 1 kHz octave close behind.  That's why telephones and ham radio, with
> bandwidth limited to about 500 Hz to 3kHz,  work just fine. Energy above
> 4 kHz helps, but energy below about 350 Hz makes no contribution, and
> often makes things worse.  The scientists at Bell Labs figured this
> stuff out early in the 20th century.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
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[k6dgw]

Or ... maybe not.  Copying SSB on a speaker is nearly impossible for me,
and CW is hard.  Unfortunately, my aids do not work under my headphones.
  They have an anti-feedback capability and just shut down if I put the
cans on over them.  They also notch out passing sirens and CW fools them
into believing my K3 is a fire truck. :-)  My new ones talk to each
other [Bluetooth?].  Adjust one, the other adjusts too, and when one
decides to change programs, it takes its buddy along at the same time.

A friend [Jim, K9YC] who made his living in the professional audio
business showed me how to get an effective 30 or so dB of equalization
from the K3 RX EQ and suggested some settings to work from.  Mine is now
set pretty good for me.  Even 30 dB isn't enough for me but it helps.

One thing I found fooling with the RX EQ [Jim warned me too] is to GO
SLOWLY!  I ended up making one small adjustment at a time and then using
it for awhile under different conditions before changing anything else.

Incidentally, I inherited a completely stock SX-28 and the large bass
reflex speaker cabinet a number of years ago.  It has been the only
receiver-speaker combo I could really understand SSB on.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013
- www.cqp.org

On 8/6/2013 8:45 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> Don,
>
> No adjustment to the K3 should be necessary.

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[Jim Brown-10]

On 8/7/2013 8:39 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> So if you enjoy music on your A.M. radio, note that it's unlikely
> your radio is reproducing much of anything above 5 kHz.

99.99% of AM broadcast receivers have audio bandwidth of less than 5
kHz.  The only ones I know of with bandwidth greater than 9 kHz are the
GE Super Radio, the Carver TX-11, and a couple of models made by McKay
Dymek, and all of them are long discontinued.  I have a Carver and
several of the GE Super Radios. In the early 80s I was selling the McKay
Dymek radios to broadcasters for use as monitors, and had one at home
for a while.

Beginning more than 30 years ago, consumer radios were built to use the
same detector and audio circuitry for AM that they used for FM, which
includes 6 dB/octave de-emphasis starting around 1 kHz. This equalizes
for the pre-emphasis applied at the transmitter, which was, and still
is, the standard for FM broadcasting. This made AM even muddier than it
already was, so AM broadcasters adopted the standard of applying
pre-emphasis to their signals. I don't remember when that was adopted,
but I'd guess at least 30 years ago. As I recall, that standard also
required a low pass around 10 kHz.

73, Jim K9YC
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[Alan Jump]

As I recall from my broadcasting classes years ago, human speech has a
"typical" bandwidth of just 3KHz. "Normal" human hearing, IIRC, picks up
frequencies from 20Hz to 20KHz.

If someone has a copy of Schrader's "Electronic Communications" ready to
hand, the specifics should be in there somewhere.

 - -
73 de N5ILN
Alan


On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 10:33 AM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]>wrote:

> On 8/7/2013 8:39 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>
>> So if you enjoy music on your A.M. radio, note that it's unlikely
>> your radio is reproducing much of anything above 5 kHz.
>>
>
> 99.99% of AM broadcast receivers have audio bandwidth of less than 5 kHz.
>  The only ones I know of with bandwidth greater than 9 kHz are the GE Super
> Radio, the Carver TX-11, and a couple of models made by McKay Dymek, and
> all of them are long discontinued.  I have a Carver and several of the GE
> Super Radios. In the early 80s I was selling the McKay Dymek radios to
> broadcasters for use as monitors, and had one at home for a while.
>
> Beginning more than 30 years ago, consumer radios were built to use the
> same detector and audio circuitry for AM that they used for FM, which
> includes 6 dB/octave de-emphasis starting around 1 kHz. This equalizes for
> the pre-emphasis applied at the transmitter, which was, and still is, the
> standard for FM broadcasting. This made AM even muddier than it already
> was, so AM broadcasters adopted the standard of applying pre-emphasis to
> their signals. I don't remember when that was adopted, but I'd guess at
> least 30 years ago. As I recall, that standard also required a low pass
> around 10 kHz.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
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[Edward R Cole]

I have worn hearing aids since 1996 (on my second pair).  Because
hearing was very important for my work, I bought the top quality
offered.  I wear Phonac Savia OTE (over the ear) model.  In 2006 they
cost $2600/ea.  Previously, I had an in-the-ear model which worked
pretty well using a telephone; OTE has the mic on the back side of
the ear so when you hold a telephone receiver to your ear the sound
never gets to the aid.  My hearing aids have four programs and my
audiologist did program a T-coil function for me to try but I found
it too distorted for use with a telephone (solution: I always use
speaker-phone).  One feature that made the choice for OTE is my model
has two mics on each aid providing noise cancellation.  That is nice
in a crowded room.

Like Don and others my hearing aids have several programs for
different hearing situations.  I find running the "music" mode (flat
frequency response) provides the best intelligibility if background
sounds/noise it not a problem.  I select that for operating ham radio
and adjust the K3 equalizer for what works best for me.  I find
copying CW is best with a tone freq of 500-700 Hz.

However, if I do not wear the hearing aids I am nearly deaf so that
is not an option for ham radio (for me).  My hearing rolls off at
about 900-Hz, but I have a problem with understanding speech which is
not just amplitude related.  I really need those higher freq to
understand speech.  My Sony stereo head phones have big soft cuffs
that surround my ear so I am able to use them wearing my aids;
necessary for super-weak signals.

I need to start saving for my next pair; average life span of hearing
aids is ten years or less.  Probably going to be close to $10K (half
my current annual income on soc sec).

73, Ed - KL7UW

--------------------
From: Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Hearing aids, meet K3
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 8/6/2013 8:45 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
 > I may b unique because my lower range hearing without the aids is
 > normal, so I have built-in low pass filters in my ears.

That's entirely normal, Don. In general, hearing loss starts at the high
end and moves down.  Many folks with a lot of hearing loss still hear a
lot of low end. The exception is when for one reason or another we are
exposed to strong noise at a specific frequencies, or a specific range
of frequencies, in which case we develop a notch in that range.

The problem is that speech intelligibility depends on sounds in the
range of 500 Hz - 4 kHz, with the 2 kHz octave being most important, the
1 kHz octave close behind.  That's why telephones and ham radio, with
bandwidth limited to about 500 Hz to 3kHz,  work just fine. Energy above
4 kHz helps, but energy below about 350 Hz makes no contribution, and
often makes things worse.  The scientists at Bell Labs figured this
stuff out early in the 20th century.

73, Jim K9YC


73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
[hidden email]
"Kits made by KL7UW"

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[Jim Brown-10]

On 8/7/2013 10:40 AM, Alan Jump wrote:
> As I recall from my broadcasting classes years ago, human speech has a
> "typical" bandwidth of just 3KHz. "Normal" human hearing, IIRC, picks up
> frequencies from 20Hz to 20KHz.
>
> If someone has a copy of Schrader's "Electronic Communications" ready to
> hand, the specifics should be in there somewhere.

Not quite -- audio and acoustics professionals know that there are
components of human speech from around 100 Hz to 10 kHz. What IS correct
is that audio bandwidth of about 500 Hz to 3 kHz is entirely sufficient
for good speech intelligibility. Bell Labs, the R & D arm of AT&T, and
the greatest such lab on the planet for the first 80 or so years of the
20th century, learned this more than 100 years ago. Extending bandwidth
at both ends makes the voice more natural, and usually more pleasing,
and extending highs to 5-6 kHz improves intelligibility slightly, but
extending lows often hurts intelligibility.

73, Jim K9YC
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[Bob W7AVK-2]

I've been wearing Hearing Aids for over a year.   Mine are the Behind
the Ear type from Costco with much of the latest technology.   An option
for them was a Bluetooth transmitter that worked into the aids remote
control box.  The idea being it was to be used with an external audio
source like a TV.

I'm using this Bluetooth system with the LINE OUT of the K3 which works
very well.   Was surprised at the Bluetooth range as I'm able to turn
off the K3 speaker and copy its output in the next room like I'm at the
operating table. :-)

73  Bob  W7AVK


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[Richard E Neese]

What bluetooth module are you using ?

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['DGB']

It's called TVLink by Phonak

73 de NS9I

On 8/7/2013 5:19 PM, Richard Neese wrote:

> What bluetooth module are you using ?
>
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[alorona]

That is the common misconception. Actually most AM stations go out to at least 10 and often 12 kHz (look on your P3). The exceptions are the stations transmitting an HD signal -- they are necessarily band-limited to 7 kHz. I boycott HD stations for that reason. I can tell the difference on a good wideband receiver.

I know this because I went through it in the pre-HD days with my senior advisor who had the common misconception. Even after I proved him wrong (by actually telephoning the chief engineers of KFI and KNX) he still gave me a 'D' on my senior project. Sour grapes.

Al  W6LX


A recent report in "Radio World" notes that most analog A.M. broadcast
>receivers today have a bandwidth of less than 5 kHz.
>
>
>
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[alorona]

Correct. According to the KFI chief engineer they applied pre-emphasis in an attempt to flatten the frequency response of lousy AM receivers a bit.

Al  W6LX




>This made AM even muddier than it already was, so AM broadcasters adopted the standard of applying pre-emphasis to their signals. 
>
>
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[Jim Brown-10]

On 8/7/2013 2:59 PM, Bob W7AVK wrote:
> Mine are the Behind the Ear type from Costco with much of the latest
> technology.

W6OAT likes the set he bought from Costco.  My XYL tells me the the word
on the street is that satisfaction can depend on the experience of
personnel in the particular Costco store that you go to. Rusty is a
serious contester and DXer, CW, SSB, and RTTY. I think he said they work
with earphones.

73, Jim K9YC
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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Whether BTE hearing aids work with headphones or not depends a lot on
the earpads of the headphones.
I have one Sony headphones that work fine (large earpieces) while
another Sony I have produces squeals.  My CM500 headsets do not work
with my hearing aids in, so I take them out.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/7/2013 10:09 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 8/7/2013 2:59 PM, Bob W7AVK wrote:
>> Mine are the Behind the Ear type from Costco with much of the latest
>> technology.
>
> W6OAT likes the set he bought from Costco.  My XYL tells me the the
> word on the street is that satisfaction can depend on the experience
> of personnel in the particular Costco store that you go to. Rusty is a
> serious contester and DXer, CW, SSB, and RTTY. I think he said they
> work with earphones.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

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[alorona]

Nope, sorry it was me that wasn't clear. I did indeed mean audio bandwidth.

Look at any AM station with your P3 -- it will be easy to measure the bandwidth. I rarely if ever see anything less than 7 kHz (14 kHz total BW) for an HD station, higher for all-analog stations.

Al  W6LX

>________________________________
> From: Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]>
>To: 'Al Lorona' <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
>Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2013 8:07 PM
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Hearing aids, meet K3
>
>
>Right Al, it takes 10 kHz of RF bandwidth with A.M. to produce 5 kHz of
>audio bandwidth after demodulation.
>
>I thought my comment was clear in context. The thread was about the
>desired/necessary audio bandwidth. My apologies for the confusion. I should
>have said "audio bandwidth".
>
>73, Ron AC7AC
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [hidden email]
>[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Al Lorona
>Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 5:48 PM
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Hearing aids, meet K3
>
>That is the common misconception. Actually most AM stations go out to at
>least 10 and often 12 kHz (look on your P3). The exceptions are the stations
>transmitting an HD signal -- they are necessarily band-limited to 7 kHz. I
>boycott HD stations for that reason. I can tell the difference on a good
>wideband receiver.
>
>I know this because I went through it in the pre-HD days with my senior
>advisor who had the common misconception. Even after I proved him wrong (by
>actually telephoning the chief engineers of KFI and KNX) he still gave me a
>'D' on my senior project. Sour grapes.
>
>Al  W6LX
>
>
>A recent report in "Radio World" notes that most analog A.M. broadcast
>>receivers today have a bandwidth of less than 5 kHz.
>>
>>
>>
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>
>

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[Stephen Selberg]

I must say, I'm glad this thread is out there.  I'm in my mid 30's, and as
prior military and current law enforcement (thus the call) I have had my
fair share of "bangs" next to my ears. The xyl is already complaining about
my hearing, and I have to admit, my hearing isn't  what it once was. I'm so
happy the USMC gave us hearing protection hihi. I really haven't thought
much about hearing aids but know I'm destined for them. I didn't realize
until this thread that hearing aids were that advanced. One of my concerns
was if I would be able to hear the radio in my retirement years. The
reality is I may need hearing aids before retirement years. But I feel
better about it now. I'm sure what ever aids I end up wearing will work
perfectly with my future K5 or whatever K# we're at.


Maybe by then the technology will be so advanced that the K line will sense
what we're thinking via ESP ( hint hint Wayne hihi) and convert it to CW
and vice versa.

But Gents, on a serious note, keep us younger hams informed on how hearing
aids work, or anything else for that matter, because one day we'll be there
as well, and at that point all we can do is pass down the knowledge we have
to the next generation and keep the spirit of Amateur Radio alive.

73,

Steve KS6PD

On Wednesday, August 7, 2013, Al Lorona wrote:

> Nope, sorry it was me that wasn't clear. I did indeed mean audio bandwidth.
>
> Look at any AM station with your P3 -- it will be easy to measure the
> bandwidth. I rarely if ever see anything less than 7 kHz (14 kHz total BW)
> for an HD station, higher for all-analog stations.
>
> Al  W6LX
>
>
>
>
>
> >________________________________
> > From: Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email] <javascript:;>>
> >To: 'Al Lorona' <[hidden email] <javascript:;>>;
> [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> >Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2013 8:07 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Hearing aids, meet K3
> >
> >
> >Right Al, it takes 10 kHz of RF bandwidth with A.M. to produce 5 kHz of
> >audio bandwidth after demodulation.
> >
> >I thought my comment was clear in context. The thread was about the
> >desired/necessary audio bandwidth. My apologies for the confusion. I
> should
> >have said "audio bandwidth".
> >
> >73, Ron AC7AC
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> >[mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;>] On Behalf Of Al
> Lorona
> >Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 5:48 PM
> >To: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
> >Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Hearing aids, meet K3
> >
> >That is the common misconception. Actually most AM stations go out to at
> >least 10 and often 12 kHz (look on your P3). The exceptions are the
> stations
> >transmitting an HD signal -- they are necessarily band-limited to 7 kHz. I
> >boycott HD stations for that reason. I can tell the difference on a good
> >wideband receiver.
> >
> >I know this because I went through it in the pre-HD days with my senior
> >advisor who had the common misconception. Even after I proved him wrong
> (by
> >actually telephoning the chief engineers of KFI and KNX) he still gave me
> a
> >'D' on my senior project. Sour grapes.
> >
> >Al  W6LX
> >
> >
> >A recent report in "Radio World" notes that most analog A.M. broadcast
> >>receivers today have a bandwidth of less than 5 kHz.
> >>
> >>
> >>
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[Edward R Cole]

OK, then I will not be buying the CM500; thanks for the
tip.  Actually happy using my Sony stereo headset, but an integrated
boom mic could be handy for some kinds of operating.  David-Clark
aircraft headsets work with my hearing aids, but not as good quality
as the Sony.

I have never found a telephone that would work with my BTE hearing
aids.  The sound is confined to the ear and the mic is  behind my ear
(not enough sound gets there and most phones do not have enough
volume to hold the receiver over the back of my ear.  Interestingly,
most cell phones do have enough volume - go figure!

At home I have 5-GHz cordless Panasonic phone in the shack and the
speaker-phone works fine.  When I worked at Walmart I had to answer
the phone on speaker-phone in a noisy store - not fun!  But then half
the customers had short circuited brains and got questions
like:  "agh ur cough grumble - ya got one of those whatayoucallits
the does thingamajig?",  "Ya sure, you betcha bub, they're on special
for $2,000" - hang up.  Well, I did NOT do that but, man, some
people?!  Elecraft customers aren't like that, right?

One more reason to enjoy retirement.

73, Ed - KL7UW

From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Hearing aids, meet K3
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Whether BTE hearing aids work with headphones or not depends a lot on
the earpads of the headphones.
I have one Sony headphones that work fine (large earpieces) while
another Sony I have produces squeals.  My CM500 headsets do not work
with my hearing aids in, so I take them out.

73,
Don W3FPR



73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
[hidden email]
"Kits made by KL7UW"

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