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K3 KAT3 Antenna Tuner Tutorial

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Don Nelson

K3 KAT3 Antenna Tuner Tutorial

The K3 KAT3 antenna tuner is a puzzle to me. The user manual says that there are up to 30 ATU settings stored for each antenna on each band by the antenna tuner. There is no further discussion as to when a setting is saved or how a setting is chosen from those saved. Is the frequency tracked as the VFO changes and a new setting put into the antenna tuner when the VFO has been changed enough? Does a setting get changed if the VFO has changed enough and the K3 instructed to transmit?

My antenna tuner seems to me to retune too often. Again my expectations may not match how the tuner works. I would appreciate a tuner tutorial for the KAT3.

Some topics for said tutorial would include: (1) frequency spacing for tuning settings on each band, (2) does the tuner remember settings for an antenna from one time when the radio was on to the next time the radio was on, (3) does the tuner remember previous tuned setting from a previous visit to a band, (4) how far the SWR must be off for the tuner to retune, (5) how does the tuner indicate a failure to tune, (6) does it make sense to tune ahead so to speak where you may want to have the antenna tuned up ahead of an event?

Don, N0YE

wayne burdick

Re: K3 KAT3 Antenna Tuner Tutorial

Administrator

Hi Don,

The manual is a bit sparse in this area -- I'll improve it next time.

> The user manual says that there are up to 30 ATU settings stored for
> each antenna on each band by the antenna tuner.

Yes. 10 kHz per segment on 160 m, 20 kHz per segment on 80-12 m, 100
kHz on 10 m, and 200 kHz on 6 m.

> There is no further discussion as to when a setting is saved or how
> a setting is chosen from those saved.

When you hit ATU TUNE, the ATU checks the SWR and goes through the
matching process if necessary. If so, new LC settings is saved for the
present band segment.

> Is the frequency tracked as the VFO changes and a new setting put
> into the antenna tuner when the VFO has been changed enough? Does a
> setting get changed if the VFO has changed
> enough and the K3 instructed to transmit?

LC network changes do not occur in receive mode, as we found that very
distracting. Instead they occur on band change or antenna change, or
(if necessary) when you transmit.

If you have moved the VFO from one segment to another since the last
transmission, and the best available LC settings have also changed,
the ATU will automatically load the new settings when you transmit.
The "ATU" icon flashes briefly to let you know this has occurred.

"Best available" is determined by comparing the present VFO location
to segments for which LC data has been stored. Let's say you've tuned
up the ATU only at 7000 and 7250 kHz on 40 m. If you move the VFO to
7180 and transmit, the ATU will load the settings from the 7250 kHz
bin, since that's the closest one.

>
> My antenna tuner seems to me to retune too often. Again my
> expectations may
> not match how the tuner works.

This depends on the Q of the antenna. If Q is high (i.e. the antenna
is narrow-banded), the ATU will retune more often. You could if you
wish go through each band and tune up at the intervals mentioned
above. On 160 m you'd start somewhere between 1800 and 1810 kHz, etc.
But this is definitely not necessary.

Up to 30 LC settings are stored for both antennas on all bands.

All settings are saved in EEPROM so you don't have to retune if you
power the radio off.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

>
> Some topics for said tutorial would include: (1) frequency spacing for
> tuning settings on each band, (2) does the tuner remember settings
> for an
> antenna from one time when the radio was on to the next time the
> radio was
> on, (3) does the tuner remember previous tuned setting from a
> previous visit
> to a band, (4) how far the SWR must be off for the tuner to retune,
> (5) how
> does the tuner indicate a failure to tune, (6) does it make sense to
> tune
> ahead so to speak where you may want to have the antenna tuned up
> ahead of
> an event?
>
> Don, N0YE
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-KAT3-Antenna-Tuner-Tutorial-tp3868991p3868991.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Brett Howard

Re: K3 KAT3 Antenna Tuner Tutorial

A really great feature of K3EZ is that it auto tunes the rig at all of
the preset bins across all bands that you wish. This is something that
would be slick if it were built into the calibration section of the
elecraft K3 app but otherwise the K3EZ app does a good job of this.

~Brett

On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 16:08 -0700, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Hi Don,
>
> The manual is a bit sparse in this area -- I'll improve it next time.
>
> > The user manual says that there are up to 30 ATU settings stored for
> > each antenna on each band by the antenna tuner.
>
> Yes. 10 kHz per segment on 160 m, 20 kHz per segment on 80-12 m, 100
> kHz on 10 m, and 200 kHz on 6 m.
>
> > There is no further discussion as to when a setting is saved or how
> > a setting is chosen from those saved.
>
> When you hit ATU TUNE, the ATU checks the SWR and goes through the
> matching process if necessary. If so, new LC settings is saved for the
> present band segment.
>
> > Is the frequency tracked as the VFO changes and a new setting put
> > into the antenna tuner when the VFO has been changed enough? Does a
> > setting get changed if the VFO has changed
> > enough and the K3 instructed to transmit?
>
> LC network changes do not occur in receive mode, as we found that very
> distracting. Instead they occur on band change or antenna change, or
> (if necessary) when you transmit.
>
> If you have moved the VFO from one segment to another since the last
> transmission, and the best available LC settings have also changed,
> the ATU will automatically load the new settings when you transmit.
> The "ATU" icon flashes briefly to let you know this has occurred.
>
> "Best available" is determined by comparing the present VFO location
> to segments for which LC data has been stored. Let's say you've tuned
> up the ATU only at 7000 and 7250 kHz on 40 m. If you move the VFO to
> 7180 and transmit, the ATU will load the settings from the 7250 kHz
> bin, since that's the closest one.
>
> >
> > My antenna tuner seems to me to retune too often. Again my
> > expectations may
> > not match how the tuner works.
>
> This depends on the Q of the antenna. If Q is high (i.e. the antenna
> is narrow-banded), the ATU will retune more often. You could if you
> wish go through each band and tune up at the intervals mentioned
> above. On 160 m you'd start somewhere between 1800 and 1810 kHz, etc.
> But this is definitely not necessary.
>
> Up to 30 LC settings are stored for both antennas on all bands.
>
> All settings are saved in EEPROM so you don't have to retune if you
> power the radio off.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
> >
> > Some topics for said tutorial would include: (1) frequency spacing for
> > tuning settings on each band, (2) does the tuner remember settings
> > for an
> > antenna from one time when the radio was on to the next time the
> > radio was
> > on, (3) does the tuner remember previous tuned setting from a
> > previous visit
> > to a band, (4) how far the SWR must be off for the tuner to retune,
> > (5) how
> > does the tuner indicate a failure to tune, (6) does it make sense to
> > tune
> > ahead so to speak where you may want to have the antenna tuned up
> > ahead of
> > an event?
> >
> > Don, N0YE
> > --
> > View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-KAT3-Antenna-Tuner-Tutorial-tp3868991p3868991.html
> > Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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KM5Q

Re: K3 KAT3 Antenna Tuner Tutorial

In reply to this post by Don Nelson

Here's another question: I have a dipole with 200 feet of window-line
feed. It works great with the ATU. When it's wet, I have to re-tune,
then it's fine again.

I've tuned it at lots of spots in some favorite bands during dry
weather (most of the time in New Mexico). But on a rainy day, I end up
retuning frequencies here and there. Next sunny day, does the system
detune me when I run into a previously "wet-tuned" segment?

Oddly, I haven't observed this, but I don't understand why.

Windy KM5Q
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Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy

Re: K3 KAT3 Antenna Tuner Tutorial

Windy,

What sort of arrangement are you using to connect the feeder to the antenna?

Do you get a lot of wind-blown dust / sand during the dry weather, some of
which might be staying on the feeder until most is washed off by rain.

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD

Windy KM5Q wrote on Thursday, October 22, 2009 at 4:38 AM

> Here's another question: I have a dipole with 200 feet of window-line
> feed. It works great with the ATU. When it's wet, I have to re-tune,
> then it's fine again.
>
> I've tuned it at lots of spots in some favorite bands during dry
> weather (most of the time in New Mexico). But on a rainy day, I end up
> retuning frequencies here and there. Next sunny day, does the system
> detune me when I run into a previously "wet-tuned" segment?
>
> Oddly, I haven't observed this, but I don't understand why.
>
> Windy KM5Q

daleputnam

Re: K3 KAT3 Antenna Tuner Tutorial

Geoff has touched on what may be happening. I've seen this on my systems here too... and the issue comes down to the material, in this case mud or water and dust... collecting on the feeder, then as the moisture drys away, the change in transmission line characteristics also change. There are a whole page of math equations and figures that prove this, but suffice it to say for now, that open wire, doesn't have this issue... it has others... more physical, like how to keep it spaced and installed correctly.

Retuning isn't a real problem, it is pretty much just adjusting for what the moisture is changing. However... be watchful for the moisture changes to not go away completely.... then go look for where the moisture isn't leaving and find an opening in the insulation, and repair it, before the feedline becomes damaged too much by the moisture invasion.

Still beats coax for losses.

--... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:53:53 +0100
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 KAT3 Antenna Tuner Tutorial
>
> Windy,
>
> What sort of arrangement are you using to connect the feeder to the antenna?
>
> Do you get a lot of wind-blown dust / sand during the dry weather, some of
> which might be staying on the feeder until most is washed off by rain.
>
> 73,
> Geoff
> GM4ESD
>
>
> Windy KM5Q wrote on Thursday, October 22, 2009 at 4:38 AM
>
> > Here's another question: I have a dipole with 200 feet of window-line
> > feed. It works great with the ATU. When it's wet, I have to re-tune,
> > then it's fine again.
> >
> > I've tuned it at lots of spots in some favorite bands during dry
> > weather (most of the time in New Mexico). But on a rainy day, I end up
> > retuning frequencies here and there. Next sunny day, does the system
> > detune me when I run into a previously "wet-tuned" segment?
> >
> > Oddly, I haven't observed this, but I don't understand why.
> >
> > Windy KM5Q
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy

Re: K3 KAT3 Antenna Tuner Tutorial

Dale, I suspect that in Windy's case moisture could be entering via tiny
holes drilled in the dielectric by windblown sand or dust. Unfortunately I
cannot offer any practical solution to prevent this happening, because I do
not use window line.

4 wire open wire feeder behaves like a lovesick octopus unless kept under
tension. A very useful type of low cost feeder for long low loss horizontal
runs at HF and VHF though.

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD

Dale Putnam wrote on Thursday, October 22, 2009 1:01 PM

Geoff has touched on what may be happening. I've seen this on my systems
here too... and the issue comes down to the material, in this case mud or
water and dust... collecting on the feeder, then as the moisture drys away,
the change in transmission line characteristics also change. There are a
whole page of math equations and figures that prove this, but suffice it to
say for now, that open wire, doesn't have this issue... it has others...
more physical, like how to keep it spaced and installed correctly.
Retuning isn't a real problem, it is pretty much just adjusting for what
the moisture is changing. However... be watchful for the moisture changes to
not go away completely.... then go look for where the moisture isn't leaving
and find an opening in the insulation, and repair it, before the feedline
becomes damaged too much by the moisture invasion.
Still beats coax for losses.

--... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy

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KM5Q

Re: K3 KAT3 Antenna Tuner Tutorial

Fellows,
I'm not asking you to go off-topic with advice on my feedline. I'm
asking only about the behavior of the ATU memory system after I've
retuned a few band segments to wet condx, then condx return to dry.

Thanks
Windy

On Oct 22, 2009, at 7:03 AM, Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy wrote:

> Dale, I suspect that in Windy's case moisture could be entering via
> tiny holes drilled in the dielectric by windblown sand or dust.
> Unfortunately I cannot offer any practical solution to prevent this
> happening, because I do not use window line.
>
> 4 wire open wire feeder behaves like a lovesick octopus unless kept
> under tension. A very useful type of low cost feeder for long low
> loss horizontal runs at HF and VHF though.
>
> 73,
> Geoff
> GM4ESD

David Cutter

Re: K3 KAT3 Antenna Tuner Tutorial

In reply to this post by Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy

I've heard that some folks rub silicone furniture polish on the ladder line to keep moisture from settling, then dust, mud, etc doesn't stick.

David
G3UNA

---- Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dale, I suspect that in Windy's case moisture could be entering via tiny
> holes drilled in the dielectric by windblown sand or dust. Unfortunately I
> cannot offer any practical solution to prevent this happening, because I do
> not use window line.
>
> 4 wire open wire feeder behaves like a lovesick octopus unless kept under
> tension. A very useful type of low cost feeder for long low loss horizontal
> runs at HF and VHF though.
>
> 73,
> Geoff
> GM4ESD
>
>
> Dale Putnam wrote on Thursday, October 22, 2009 1:01 PM
>
> Geoff has touched on what may be happening. I've seen this on my systems
> here too... and the issue comes down to the material, in this case mud or
> water and dust... collecting on the feeder, then as the moisture drys away,
> the change in transmission line characteristics also change. There are a
> whole page of math equations and figures that prove this, but suffice it to
> say for now, that open wire, doesn't have this issue... it has others...
> more physical, like how to keep it spaced and installed correctly.
> Retuning isn't a real problem, it is pretty much just adjusting for what
> the moisture is changing. However... be watchful for the moisture changes to
> not go away completely.... then go look for where the moisture isn't leaving
> and find an opening in the insulation, and repair it, before the feedline
> becomes damaged too much by the moisture invasion.
> Still beats coax for losses.
>
> --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy
>
>

Bill K9YEQ

Re: K3 KAT3 Antenna Tuner Tutorial

In reply to this post by KM5Q

Your feedline impedance changes when wet and the memory will change in the
tuner. I would expect that is quite normal and a good thing!

73,

Bill
K9YEQ
K2 #35; KX1 #35; K3 #1744; mini mods
ATS-3B

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Windy Dankoff
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 9:02 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 KAT3 Antenna Tuner Tutorial

Fellows,
I'm not asking you to go off-topic with advice on my feedline. I'm
asking only about the behavior of the ATU memory system after I've
retuned a few band segments to wet condx, then condx return to dry.

Thanks
Windy

On Oct 22, 2009, at 7:03 AM, Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy wrote:

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The Smiths

Re: K3 KAT3 Antenna Tuner Tutorial

In reply to this post by David Cutter

I know someone that drives a bus for a living..

WHAT DOES ANY OF THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE GUYS QUESTION. He had a VERY simple question. Just answer it if you know, if not, save your science lessons for those that actually want to talk about that off the reflector! Some times you CAN be too smart for your own good. Guys, You don't always have to answer EVERYTHING just because you think you can.

> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:05:37 +0100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 KAT3 Antenna Tuner Tutorial
>
> I've heard that some folks rub silicone furniture polish on the ladder line to keep moisture from settling, then dust, mud, etc doesn't stick.
>
> David
> G3UNA
>
> ---- Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Dale, I suspect that in Windy's case moisture could be entering via tiny
> > holes drilled in the dielectric by windblown sand or dust. Unfortunately I
> > cannot offer any practical solution to prevent this happening, because I do
> > not use window line.
> >
> > 4 wire open wire feeder behaves like a lovesick octopus unless kept under
> > tension. A very useful type of low cost feeder for long low loss horizontal
> > runs at HF and VHF though.
> >
> > 73,
> > Geoff
> > GM4ESD
> >
> >
> > Dale Putnam wrote on Thursday, October 22, 2009 1:01 PM
> >
> > Geoff has touched on what may be happening. I've seen this on my systems
> > here too... and the issue comes down to the material, in this case mud or
> > water and dust... collecting on the feeder, then as the moisture drys away,
> > the change in transmission line characteristics also change. There are a
> > whole page of math equations and figures that prove this, but suffice it to
> > say for now, that open wire, doesn't have this issue... it has others...
> > more physical, like how to keep it spaced and installed correctly.
> > Retuning isn't a real problem, it is pretty much just adjusting for what
> > the moisture is changing. However... be watchful for the moisture changes to
> > not go away completely.... then go look for where the moisture isn't leaving
> > and find an opening in the insulation, and repair it, before the feedline
> > becomes damaged too much by the moisture invasion.
> > Still beats coax for losses.
> >
> > --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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