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K3: KFL3C-200 filter

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N2TK

K3: KFL3C-200 filter

My understanding is that the new 200 HZ filter is different than the old 200
HZ filter. Is this correct?

If so, is the difference even possible to detect on the air?

Tnx

N2TK, Tony

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IK4EWX

R: K3: KFL3C-200 filter

The new filter has 6 poles and steeper sides than the older filter thet have only 5 poles. On my K3s I have also the 500hz 5 poles. I excluded the 8 poles filter becouse on a previous experience on my old FT1000MP with the great 400hz ‎paired filter by Inrad found them a little tiring on long listening - more poles, more ringing I think.
I think that the new 200hz 6 poles is very good: I used it 48 hours CQ WPX and yesterday CQ WW CW, great radio and filters test, without tiring my ears.
Ian IK4EWX

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Messaggio originale
Da: N2TK, Tony
Inviato: lunedì 28 novembre 2016 23:22
A: [hidden email]
Oggetto: [Elecraft] K3: KFL3C-200 filter

My understanding is that the new 200 HZ filter is different than the old 200
HZ filter. Is this correct?

If so, is the difference even possible to detect on the air?

Tnx

N2TK, Tony

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N2TK

Re: K3: KFL3C-200 filter

Tnx Ian,
On 80 and 160M this past weekend had the filter bandwidth set at 200HZ most of the time due to the QRN. The NR helped a little. Just trying to find out if worth the money to buy the new 200 HZ filter if I would really know the difference.

73,
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 6:00 PM
To: N2TK, Tony <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Subject: R: [Elecraft] K3: KFL3C-200 filter

The new filter has 6 poles and steeper sides than the older filter thet have only 5 poles. On my K3s I have also the 500hz 5 poles. I excluded the 8 poles filter becouse on a previous experience on my old FT1000MP with the great 400hz ‎paired filter by Inrad found them a little tiring on long listening - more poles, more ringing I think.
I think that the new 200hz 6 poles is very good: I used it 48 hours CQ WPX and yesterday CQ WW CW, great radio and filters test, without tiring my ears.
Ian IK4EWX

Invio eseguito dallo smartphone BlackBerry 10.
Messaggio originale
Da: N2TK, Tony
Inviato: lunedì 28 novembre 2016 23:22
A: [hidden email]
Oggetto: [Elecraft] K3: KFL3C-200 filter

My understanding is that the new 200 HZ filter is different than the old 200 HZ filter. Is this correct?

If so, is the difference even possible to detect on the air?

Tnx

N2TK, Tony

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wayne burdick

Re: K3: KFL3C-200 filter

Administrator

In reply to this post by N2TK

The new filter has 6 crystals rather than 5, and has steeper skirts. The difference is easily measurable. Whether you can hear the difference depends on QRM levels and biology :)

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Nov 28, 2016, at 1:20 PM, "N2TK, Tony" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My understanding is that the new 200 HZ filter is different than the old 200
> HZ filter. Is this correct?
>
> If so, is the difference even possible to detect on the air?
>
>
>
> Tnx
>
> N2TK, Tony
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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N2TK

Re: K3: KFL3C-200 filter

Tnx Wayne. Looking for something to add to my Xmas wish list besides a KPOD.

73,
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Burdick [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 6:43 PM
To: N2TK, Tony <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: KFL3C-200 filter

The new filter has 6 crystals rather than 5, and has steeper skirts. The
difference is easily measurable. Whether you can hear the difference depends
on QRM levels and biology :)

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Nov 28, 2016, at 1:20 PM, "N2TK, Tony" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My understanding is that the new 200 HZ filter is different than the
> old 200 HZ filter. Is this correct?
>
> If so, is the difference even possible to detect on the air?
>
>
>
> Tnx
>
> N2TK, Tony
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]

Nr4c

Re: K3: KFL3C-200 filter

In reply to this post by N2TK

Yes. I think it is a 6- pole filter.

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill

> On Nov 28, 2016, at 4:20 PM, N2TK, Tony <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My understanding is that the new 200 HZ filter is different than the old 200
> HZ filter. Is this correct?
>
> If so, is the difference even possible to detect on the air?
>
>
>
> Tnx
>
> N2TK, Tony
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Barry Simpson

Re: K3: KFL3C-200 filter

In reply to this post by N2TK

I installed two of the new 200Hz filters in my K3 main and sub receivers a
few months ago as part of a major upgrade. Previously my narrowest filters
were the 400Hz.

I am very happy with the 200Hz filters and find them very good in contests
and pile up situations (when on the receiving end).

I generally operate split in such situations and transmit on VFO B and
receive on VFO A so that I can tune around the transmit frequency and pick
out stations with the very narrow filter.

73

Barry VK2BJ

On 29 November 2016 at 10:39, N2TK, Tony <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Tnx Ian,
> On 80 and 160M this past weekend had the filter bandwidth set at 200HZ
> most of the time due to the QRN. The NR helped a little. Just trying to
> find out if worth the money to buy the new 200 HZ filter if I would really
> know the difference.
>
> 73,
> N2TK, Tony
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 6:00 PM
> To: N2TK, Tony <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
> Subject: R: [Elecraft] K3: KFL3C-200 filter
>
> The new filter has 6 poles and steeper sides than the older filter thet
> have only 5 poles. On my K3s I have also the 500hz 5 poles. I excluded the
> 8 poles filter becouse on a previous experience on my old FT1000MP with
> the great 400hz ‎paired filter by Inrad found them a little tiring on long
> listening - more poles, more ringing I think.
> I think that the new 200hz 6 poles is very good: I used it 48 hours CQ WPX
> and yesterday CQ WW CW, great radio and filters test, without tiring my
> ears.
> Ian IK4EWX
>
> Invio eseguito dallo smartphone BlackBerry 10.
> Messaggio originale
> Da: N2TK, Tony
> Inviato: lunedì 28 novembre 2016 23:22
> A: [hidden email]
> Oggetto: [Elecraft] K3: KFL3C-200 filter
>
> My understanding is that the new 200 HZ filter is different than the old
> 200 HZ filter. Is this correct?
>
> If so, is the difference even possible to detect on the air?
>
>
>
> Tnx
>
> N2TK, Tony
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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N2TK

Re: K3: KFL3C-200 filter

Hi Barry,

Tnx for the info.

Yes, I do like my 200HZ filters. I have one in each rig. When running split when bands are crowded I can have the VFO A width down to 200HZ. Usually I have VFO B wider.

I was trying to find out if the new 200 HZ filters had any advantages over the older 200 HZ filters that you could hear. From Elecraft feedback It seems the newer filters are better but probably you could not hear the difference.

73,

N2TK, Tony

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Barry Simpson
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 4:12 AM
To: N2TK, Tony <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: KFL3C-200 filter

I installed two of the new 200Hz filters in my K3 main and sub receivers a few months ago as part of a major upgrade. Previously my narrowest filters were the 400Hz.

I am very happy with the 200Hz filters and find them very good in contests and pile up situations (when on the receiving end).

I generally operate split in such situations and transmit on VFO B and receive on VFO A so that I can tune around the transmit frequency and pick out stations with the very narrow filter.

73

Barry VK2BJ

On 29 November 2016 at 10:39, N2TK, Tony <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > wrote:

Tnx Ian,
On 80 and 160M this past weekend had the filter bandwidth set at 200HZ most of the time due to the QRN. The NR helped a little. Just trying to find out if worth the money to buy the new 200 HZ filter if I would really know the difference.

73,
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> [mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> ]
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 6:00 PM
To: N2TK, Tony <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> >; [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
Subject: R: [Elecraft] K3: KFL3C-200 filter

The new filter has 6 poles and steeper sides than the older filter thet have only 5 poles. On my K3s I have also the 500hz 5 poles. I excluded the 8 poles filter becouse on a previous experience on my old FT1000MP with the great 400hz ‎paired filter by Inrad found them a little tiring on long listening - more poles, more ringing I think.
I think that the new 200hz 6 poles is very good: I used it 48 hours CQ WPX and yesterday CQ WW CW, great radio and filters test, without tiring my ears.
Ian IK4EWX

Invio eseguito dallo smartphone BlackBerry 10.
Messaggio originale
Da: N2TK, Tony
Inviato: lunedì 28 novembre 2016 23:22
A: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
Oggetto: [Elecraft] K3: KFL3C-200 filter

My understanding is that the new 200 HZ filter is different than the old 200 HZ filter. Is this correct?

If so, is the difference even possible to detect on the air?

Tnx

N2TK, Tony

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Eric NO3M

Re: K3: KFL3C-200 filter

In reply to this post by N2TK

I find the 200Hz filter most useful to knock down adjacent QRM, ie.
during crowded contest conditions, not so much dealing with QRN. Try
opening up the bandwidth to 500-700Hz when QRN is bad. The brain
generally does a better job discerning a weak signal when there is more
noise bandwidth, but of course, depends on the operator. APF doesn't
seem particularly useful on very weak signals when a certain amount of
QRN is present either.

I had decent copy of 8Q7SP on QSB peaks on 160M last night with the
bandwidth set at 550Hz... no chance with anything much narrower.

73 Eric NO3M

On 11/28/2016 06:39 PM, N2TK, Tony wrote:
> Tnx Ian,
> On 80 and 160M this past weekend had the filter bandwidth set at 200HZ most of the time due to the QRN. The NR helped a little. Just trying to find out if worth the money to buy the new 200 HZ filter if I would really know the difference.
>
> 73,
> N2TK, Tony
>
>

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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3: KFL3C-200 filter

AGREE! There's also some serious science behind Eric's observation --
the skirts of filters made with real components cause phase distortion,
often described as "ringing." Noise excites that ringing at the
frequency of the filter slopes, and confuse the brain when trying to
decode CW.

The same thing happens when the crystal filters in the K2 are aligned
for RX bandwidths narrower than the TX filter -- the amplitude response
is a bunch of peaks, and the resulting phase distortion makes SSB hard
to copy. At full RX bandwidth, the K2 uses the TX filter, which sounds
very good.

73, Jim K9YC

On Wed,11/30/2016 9:00 AM, Eric NO3M wrote:
> I find the 200Hz filter most useful to knock down adjacent QRM, ie.
> during crowded contest conditions, not so much dealing with QRN. Try
> opening up the bandwidth to 500-700Hz when QRN is bad.

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N2TK

Re: K3: KFL3C-200 filter

In reply to this post by Eric NO3M

Eric,
I agree and open up the bandwidth when there isn't strong adjacent signals,
especially with the upper bands. But on Topband I do seem to hear better in
the QRN with the filter narrowed down to 200HZ.
I do wonder why the difference we both see on Topband with you using a wider
setting and I am using a narrower setting? Maybe you have better receive
antennas?
I only have a couple Pennants, a short 3-el vert inline array that I can't
get working well and a BOG. I haven't optimized the length yet on the BOG.
But so far it hear fairly well. I sure do miss my long beverages when I
lived in Joisey.

73,
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Eric
NO3M
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 12:01 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: KFL3C-200 filter

I find the 200Hz filter most useful to knock down adjacent QRM, ie.
during crowded contest conditions, not so much dealing with QRN. Try opening
up the bandwidth to 500-700Hz when QRN is bad. The brain generally does a
better job discerning a weak signal when there is more noise bandwidth, but
of course, depends on the operator. APF doesn't seem particularly useful on
very weak signals when a certain amount of QRN is present either.

I had decent copy of 8Q7SP on QSB peaks on 160M last night with the
bandwidth set at 550Hz... no chance with anything much narrower.

73 Eric NO3M

On 11/28/2016 06:39 PM, N2TK, Tony wrote:
> Tnx Ian,
> On 80 and 160M this past weekend had the filter bandwidth set at 200HZ
most of the time due to the QRN. The NR helped a little. Just trying to find
out if worth the money to buy the new 200 HZ filter if I would really know
the difference.
>
> 73,
> N2TK, Tony
>
>

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Eric NO3M

Re: K3: KFL3C-200 filter

Tony

I have large beverage arrays in each direction as well as a passive BSEF
8-circle:

http://no3m.net/antennas/receive-antennas/

I am planning to add a couple new 8-circles, one in the front and one in
the back of the property, 2200 ft center-to-center, that should provide
excellent stereo diversity (4 wavelengths on 160M).

73 Eric NO3M

On 11/30/2016 01:28 PM, N2TK, Tony wrote:

> Eric,
> I agree and open up the bandwidth when there isn't strong adjacent signals,
> especially with the upper bands. But on Topband I do seem to hear better in
> the QRN with the filter narrowed down to 200HZ.
> I do wonder why the difference we both see on Topband with you using a wider
> setting and I am using a narrower setting? Maybe you have better receive
> antennas?
> I only have a couple Pennants, a short 3-el vert inline array that I can't
> get working well and a BOG. I haven't optimized the length yet on the BOG.
> But so far it hear fairly well. I sure do miss my long beverages when I
> lived in Joisey.
>
> 73,
> N2TK, Tony
>
>

Eric NO3M

Re: K3: KFL3C-200 filter

In reply to this post by N2TK

We may also be referring to different types of QRN. I have almost zero
local noise, the transmit antenna is usually about S1 midday and on
quiet nights, S2-3 at night.

Locally generated QRN is generally more even and narrow filtering may be
beneficial in that case. Propagated QRN, which is what I mainly hear,
is more erratic, with bursts and inconsistent behavior, where wider
bandwidths seem to benefit. As Jim points out, there is science behind
it, but I also think the inherent phase distortion and how it is
processed / handled by the brain may be a function of the individual to
some extent.

73 Eric NO3M

On 11/30/2016 01:28 PM, N2TK, Tony wrote:

N2TK

Re: K3: KFL3C-200 filter

I think we are talking about different types of QRN. This evening the noise
level is way down. My Pennants seem to be quite directive. Of course the
W1FV array still does not work. The BOG is hearing quite well but no
directivity at 220'. Will try shortening it. I was chatting with AA1K a
little while ago. He does quite well down in DE with his array of receive
and transmit antennas on 160M. He was saying weird propagation and noise
this past weekend too on 80 and 160M.
Oh well, probably see more of this with the low sunspot numbers. SW3LPL had
a good explanation of this the other day.

73
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Eric
NO3M
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 2:13 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: KFL3C-200 filter

We may also be referring to different types of QRN. I have almost zero
local noise, the transmit antenna is usually about S1 midday and on quiet
nights, S2-3 at night.

Locally generated QRN is generally more even and narrow filtering may be
beneficial in that case. Propagated QRN, which is what I mainly hear, is
more erratic, with bursts and inconsistent behavior, where wider bandwidths
seem to benefit. As Jim points out, there is science behind it, but I also
think the inherent phase distortion and how it is processed / handled by the
brain may be a function of the individual to some extent.

73 Eric NO3M

On 11/30/2016 01:28 PM, N2TK, Tony wrote:
> Eric,
> I agree and open up the bandwidth when there isn't strong adjacent
> signals, especially with the upper bands. But on Topband I do seem to
> hear better in the QRN with the filter narrowed down to 200HZ.
> I do wonder why the difference we both see on Topband with you using a
> wider setting and I am using a narrower setting? Maybe you have better
> receive antennas?
> I only have a couple Pennants, a short 3-el vert inline array that I
> can't get working well and a BOG. I haven't optimized the length yet on
the BOG.
> But so far it hear fairly well. I sure do miss my long beverages when
> I lived in Joisey.
>
> 73,
> N2TK, Tony
>
>

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