K3 KPA3 Fan Upgrade Question

[Brian Binkley]

Hello,

I am currently in the process of upgrading the fans for the KPA3 100 Watt
Amplifier module because the heatsink temperature gets too high for my
liking. I am upgrading both fans to a fan with higher CFM output. Last night
I hooked both fans up to the KPAIO module to test and see if they will work.
When I am on fan power level one, the fans try to but are unable to start
up. I have to bump them to start them spinning. Power level two has no
problem spinning them up. When I went to power level four and then brought
the power level to one, the fans did not have any problem continuing
running. The fan specs can be found here
http://www.sundialmicro.com/ipcqueen_dc_fan_606010_ball_bearing_3pin_2033_1199.html.
Is there any components that I can add in line to provide the necessary
power to start the fans up at power level one?


Thanks
Brian Binkley
KD8CPF
[hidden email]
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[list1]

Hi Brian,
I'm sure others will chime in.  What mode are you using?  What power?  What
SWR?  What's the room temperature?

At 100 Watts, for MARS I need to lecture on USB for 20 minutes at a time.
No problem what so ever.  With digital modes I do need to cut the power down
to 50 Watts.  I never hear the fans go on.  I think you need to give us all
the details.  I would never dream of replacing the fans on the K3.  Perhaps
the temps need to be recalibrated.  I just would hate for you to go though
all that work if it wasn't truly necessary.  It is such a well engineered
radio.  I'm sure Elecraft has the temperature management aspects covered.

Steve, W2MY, AAR6CX

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 KPA3 Fan Upgrade Question

Hello,

I am currently in the process of upgrading the fans for the KPA3 100 Watt
Amplifier module because the heatsink temperature gets too high for my
liking.

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[Buck - k4ia]

If it ain't broke - don't fix it.  The fans on the K3 are fine.   If your
K3 is getting hot, check the original fans to be sure they weren't  blocked
by a screw or something.  There is a fan-check procedure outlined  in the
manual somewhere (menu item?).  You can also read the actual temp on  the
finals through the menu.  
 
Buck
k4ia
K3 # 101

Hello,

I am currently in the process of upgrading  the fans for the KPA3 100 Watt
Amplifier module because the heatsink  temperature gets too high for my
liking.
 
**************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after
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[Ed Muns, W0YK]

You're doing what?!

For two years I've run my K3s in NAQP at 100 watts with high duty cycle.  The fans seldom turn-on and the PA is barely warm.  If you can out-design N6KR, I'd be amazed.

Ed - W0YK


------Original Message------
From: Brian Binkley
Sender: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Sent: May 13, 2009 05:11
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 KPA3 Fan Upgrade Question

Hello,

I am currently in the process of upgrading the fans for the KPA3 100 Watt
Amplifier module because the heatsink temperature gets too high for my
liking. I am upgrading both fans to a fan with higher CFM output. Last night
I hooked both fans up to the KPAIO module to test and see if they will work.
When I am on fan power level one, the fans try to but are unable to start
up. I have to bump them to start them spinning. Power level two has no
problem spinning them up. When I went to power level four and then brought
the power level to one, the fans did not have any problem continuing
running. The fan specs can be found here
http://www.sundialmicro.com/ipcqueen_dc_fan_606010_ball_bearing_3pin_2033_1199.html.
Is there any components that I can add in line to provide the necessary
power to start the fans up at power level one?


Thanks
Brian Binkley
KD8CPF
[hidden email]
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[Dave Hachadorian]

With stock fans, you shouldn't see more than about 64C on
the PA TEMP reading (with 77F room air). The high temp
warning, with KPA bypass, is set for 84C, so there is quite
a bit of headroom.

If you really want to use your new fans, you could set
config: kpa3 = Fn2. With that setting, the fans will never
run at less than speed 2, but will speed up at the
appropriate temp as the PA warms up.

Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, AZ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Binkley" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:11 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 KPA3 Fan Upgrade Question

> Hello,
>
> I am currently in the process of upgrading the fans for
> the KPA3 100 Watt
> Amplifier module because the heatsink temperature gets too
> high for my
> liking. I am upgrading both fans to a fan with higher CFM
> output. Last night
> I hooked both fans up to the KPAIO module to test and see
> if they will work.
> When I am on fan power level one, the fans try to but are
> unable to start
> up. I have to bump them to start them spinning. Power
> level two has no
> problem spinning them up. When I went to power level four
> and then brought
> the power level to one, the fans did not have any problem
> continuing
> running. The fan specs can be found here
> http://www.sundialmicro.com/ipcqueen_dc_fan_606010_ball_bearing_3pin_2033_1199.html.
> Is there any components that I can add in line to provide
> the necessary
> power to start the fans up at power level one?
>
>
> Thanks
> Brian Binkley
> KD8CPF
> [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html 

... [show rest of quote]

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[Guy, K2AV]

What would be the improvement over the original fans, based on the
referenced specs below?  At high fan speeds, the airflow is limited by the
intake grills on the case.  You can set the original fans on any level as a
minimum flow using the configuration menu.

73, Guy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Binkley" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 8:11 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 KPA3 Fan Upgrade Question

> Hello,
>
> I am currently in the process of upgrading the fans for the KPA3 100 Watt
> Amplifier module because the heatsink temperature gets too high for my
> liking. I am upgrading both fans to a fan with higher CFM output. Last
> night
> I hooked both fans up to the KPAIO module to test and see if they will
> work.
> When I am on fan power level one, the fans try to but are unable to start
> up. I have to bump them to start them spinning. Power level two has no
> problem spinning them up. When I went to power level four and then brought
> the power level to one, the fans did not have any problem continuing
> running. The fan specs can be found here
> http://www.sundialmicro.com/ipcqueen_dc_fan_606010_ball_bearing_3pin_2033_1199.html.
> Is there any components that I can add in line to provide the necessary
> power to start the fans up at power level one?
>
>
> Thanks
> Brian Binkley
> KD8CPF
> [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

... [show rest of quote]

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[M0XDF]

I don't understand why you are looking to upgrade over the std spec -  
surely elecraft have considered all the possibilities of ambient temp  
to run in - unless of course you are operation in an oven?
:-)

--
Study without desire spoils the memory, and it retains nothing that it  
takes in.  -- Leonardo da Vinci

On 13 May 2009, at 13:11, Brian Binkley wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am currently in the process of upgrading the fans for the KPA3 100  
> Watt
> Amplifier module because the heatsink temperature gets too high for my
> liking. I am upgrading both fans to a fan with higher CFM output.  
> Last night
> I hooked both fans up to the KPAIO module to test and see if they  
> will work.
> When I am on fan power level one, the fans try to but are unable to  
> start
> up. I have to bump them to start them spinning. Power level two has no
> problem spinning them up. When I went to power level four and then  
> brought
> the power level to one, the fans did not have any problem continuing
> running. The fan specs can be found here
> http://www.sundialmicro.com/ipcqueen_dc_fan_606010_ball_bearing_3pin_2033_1199.html 
> .
> Is there any components that I can add in line to provide the  
> necessary
> power to start the fans up at power level one?

... [show rest of quote]

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[Matt Palmer-4]

I wonder if elecraft actually does thermal and vibrational stress
analysis, I've always been curious what the natural frequency of my K2
is, as well as what the rise from board to chassis is in a 71C
environment :)


Matt
W8ESE



On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 9:16 AM, David Ferrington, M0XDF
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't understand why you are looking to upgrade over the std spec -
> surely elecraft have considered all the possibilities of ambient temp
> to run in - unless of course you are operation in an oven?
> :-)
>
> --
> Study without desire spoils the memory, and it retains nothing that it
> takes in.  -- Leonardo da Vinci
>
> On 13 May 2009, at 13:11, Brian Binkley wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am currently in the process of upgrading the fans for the KPA3 100
>> Watt
>> Amplifier module because the heatsink temperature gets too high for my
>> liking. I am upgrading both fans to a fan with higher CFM output.
>> Last night
>> I hooked both fans up to the KPAIO module to test and see if they
>> will work.
>> When I am on fan power level one, the fans try to but are unable to
>> start
>> up. I have to bump them to start them spinning. Power level two has no
>> problem spinning them up. When I went to power level four and then
>> brought
>> the power level to one, the fans did not have any problem continuing
>> running. The fan specs can be found here
>> http://www.sundialmicro.com/ipcqueen_dc_fan_606010_ball_bearing_3pin_2033_1199.html
>> .
>> Is there any components that I can add in line to provide the
>> necessary
>> power to start the fans up at power level one?
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

... [show rest of quote]

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[Ed Muns, W0YK]

You're doing what?!

For two years I've run my K3s in NAQP at 100 watts with high duty cycle.  The fans seldom turn-on and the PA is barely warm.  If you can out-design N6KR, I'd be amazed.

Ed - W0YK


------Original Message------
From: Brian Binkley
Sender: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Sent: May 13, 2009 07:11
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 KPA3 Fan Upgrade Question

Hello,

I am currently in the process of upgrading the fans for the KPA3 100 Watt
Amplifier module because the heatsink temperature gets too high for my
liking. I am upgrading both fans to a fan with higher CFM output. Last night
I hooked both fans up to the KPAIO module to test and see if they will work.
When I am on fan power level one, the fans try to but are unable to start
up. I have to bump them to start them spinning. Power level two has no
problem spinning them up. When I went to power level four and then brought
the power level to one, the fans did not have any problem continuing
running. The fan specs can be found here
http://www.sundialmicro.com/ipcqueen_dc_fan_606010_ball_bearing_3pin_2033_1199.html.
Is there any components that I can add in line to provide the necessary
power to start the fans up at power level one?


Thanks
Brian Binkley
KD8CPF
[hidden email]
______________________________________________________________
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[Joe Planisky]

Apparently not all K3s are created equal, thermally speaking.

On my K3, it takes about 2:45 of 20 wpm CW at 50 watts into a dummy  
load to raise the PA temp from 18C to 37C (the fan turn-on temp.  
Ambient temp is about 18C.)

73
--
Joe KB8AP


On May 13, 2009, at 6:24 AM, Ed Muns wrote:

> You're doing what?!
>
> For two years I've run my K3s in NAQP at 100 watts with high duty  
> cycle.  The fans seldom turn-on and the PA is barely warm.  If you  
> can out-design N6KR, I'd be amazed.
>
> Ed - W0YK
>
>
> ------Original Message------
> From: Brian Binkley
> Sender: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: May 13, 2009 05:11
> Subject: [Elecraft] K3 KPA3 Fan Upgrade Question
>
> Hello,
>
> I am currently in the process of upgrading the fans for the KPA3 100  
> Watt
> Amplifier module because the heatsink temperature gets too high for my
> liking. I am upgrading both fans to a fan with higher CFM output.  
> Last night
> I hooked both fans up to the KPAIO module to test and see if they  
> will work.
> When I am on fan power level one, the fans try to but are unable to  
> start
> up. I have to bump them to start them spinning. Power level two has no
> problem spinning them up. When I went to power level four and then  
> brought
> the power level to one, the fans did not have any problem continuing
> running. The fan specs can be found here
> http://www.sundialmicro.com/ipcqueen_dc_fan_606010_ball_bearing_3pin_2033_1199.html 
> .
> Is there any components that I can add in line to provide the  
> necessary
> power to start the fans up at power level one?
>
>
> Thanks
> Brian Binkley
> KD8CPF
> [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry
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>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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... [show rest of quote]

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[hf4me]

"37C (the fan turn-on temp"

What is the approximate temp for speedup to the faster speeds?

I have noticed that mine will sit around 50 C or so when in relitevly heavy
use and suspect that is near one of the increments of speedup (and I
remember reading here that the overtemp shutdown was set at 85 C).

Tnx es 73, de Jim KG0KP


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[Guy, K2AV]

Hi, Joe,

The 37 C (98 F) you quote does not seem the least bit unreasonable.  IMHO it
seems quite mild.  That's 85 degrees Farenheit below the thermal  safety
cutout temperature.  That's coffee thats gone cold to a lot of people.

The manual states that the PA will drop out on safety when the PA temp
reaches 84C (183 F) .   That's hot water temp in bygone days before people
started suing tank makers for getting burned when they turned on hot water
only and stuck their hand under it. Coffee temp before that lady sued
McDonalds and won.

 My ambient room temperature is 27 C today.  65 F you quote is a bit chilly
for me sitting down without a jacket for any period of time. So my numbers
run a little higher than you would get in your chilly room.  Thought I would
do an experiment along your lines:

I zero beat a broadcast carrier on 40m where my SWR is 1:1 and hit the tune
button putting out 50 watts, and just left it on steady (brick on key).  The
PA temp settled at 60 C (140 F) after 3 minutes with fan at speed 3 which is
an entirely safe running temp. The exhaust air seemed only mildly warm.
Coffee cooling down but OK.

Just to see what would happen I ran the power up to 100 watts and did the
same thing -- 100W brick on key, watching very carefully for a temp runaway.
Had never tried that before.  Temp settled at 70 C (158 F) after 3 minutes
with fan at top speed, and the air was decently warm. Nice coffee temp.  I
HAD thought that 100 watts steady might trip the temp cutout, but it was
nowhere near 84 C.  25 degrees F below the cutout temp.

When in CW contesting doing runs at home, driving my 3-1000 with 50-55
watts, I find that the fan is running on its lowest speed and the PA temp
around or below 40 C.  I would say this is quite like your experience.  When
driving a band filter to a 3CX1200A7 running 110 watts for a 48 hour CW
contest out at the multi-op I get upper 40's C with fan speed 3. I figure CW
contesting is like a 40% duty cycle at highest, or 110 times .4 = 44 watts
overall, plus some extra degrees C for a warm room with 4 amps going.

I would say that your new fan's inability to come on at the lowest fan speed
shows that it does not qualify for operation in the K3.  That is regardless
of their published CFM spec. It is entirely possible that the temperatures
will actually run higher with the replacement fans in the K3 during moderate
operating because they are not spinning or not obtaining the RPM for the
next air speed at the set voltages and will only deliver the higher cooling
when the K3 is calling for fan speed 4.

The K3's low fan speed voltage will have been calibrated to desired air
movement with the particular fan stock in the K3, as all DC fan motors do
not start to move at the same voltage. Google "DC motor deadzone".  Using
the stock settings for the fan ( PA nor) will also minimize bearing wear,
particularly that they will not turn at all during long periods of listening
only.

73, Guy.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Planisky" <[hidden email]>
To: "elecraft reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 KPA3 Fan Upgrade Question

> Apparently not all K3s are created equal, thermally speaking.
>
> On my K3, it takes about 2:45 of 20 wpm CW at 50 watts into a dummy
> load to raise the PA temp from 18C to 37C (the fan turn-on temp.
> Ambient temp is about 18C.)
>
> 73
> --
> Joe KB8AP
>
>

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[Dave Hachadorian]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Miller KG0KP" <[hidden email]>
To: "Joe Planisky" <[hidden email]>; "elecraft reflector"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 8:19 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 KPA3 Fan Temp settings


> "37C (the fan turn-on temp"
>
> What is the approximate temp for speedup to the faster
> speeds?
----------------------------
Here is a copy of a posting I made on 20090312:

Earlier today, I remarked that one of my K3's was running
warm in the NAQP RTTY after an extended number of RTTY CQ's.
Tonight I did a little experiment - key down at 100 watts
for four minutes while noting PA Temp and fan speed. It
turns out that there really is no problem. Both K3's behaved
identically and both leveled off at PA Temp = 64C after
about 3 minutes. For the record, here are the results (best
viewed with Courier font):

Time   Temp  Fan
0:00    26C   0
0:26    37    1
0:44    41    2
1:19    50    3
1:45    55    4
2:40    60    4
2:50    62    4
3:15    64    4
4:00    64    4

Room temp was 77F.

Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, AZ



















.

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[Julius Fazekas n2wn]

Hi Joe,

Have you checked for a voltage drop from your power supply/source? or the APPs? This sounds unusual...

My K3 barely gets warm running RTTY at 100 watts or on 160 running 100 watts for 12 to 14 hours straight. I mention 160 as I have a higher current draw here, most likely due to less than perfect matching at the Tx antenna and proximity to the radio (is VERY close).

The only reason I know the fan is on is because I, out of curiosity, put my hand on the rig and feel a bit of air flow... My shack can get to 80 degrees before I decide I need the air on, even then the fan rarely ramps higher than one...

Much better than the KPA100 was/is in the same situation. Different setup and much smaller fan on that one.

73,
Julius

Joe Planisky wrote

Apparently not all K3s are created equal, thermally speaking.

On my K3, it takes about 2:45 of 20 wpm CW at 50 watts into a dummy  
load to raise the PA temp from 18C to 37C (the fan turn-on temp.  
Ambient temp is about 18C.)

73
--
Joe KB8AP


On May 13, 2009, at 6:24 AM, Ed Muns wrote:

> You're doing what?!
>
> For two years I've run my K3s in NAQP at 100 watts with high duty  
> cycle.  The fans seldom turn-on and the PA is barely warm.  If you  
> can out-design N6KR, I'd be amazed.
>
> Ed - W0YK
>
>
> ------Original Message------
> From: Brian Binkley
> Sender: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Sent: May 13, 2009 05:11
> Subject: [Elecraft] K3 KPA3 Fan Upgrade Question
>
> Hello,
>
> I am currently in the process of upgrading the fans for the KPA3 100  
> Watt
> Amplifier module because the heatsink temperature gets too high for my
> liking. I am upgrading both fans to a fan with higher CFM output.  
> Last night
> I hooked both fans up to the KPAIO module to test and see if they  
> will work.
> When I am on fan power level one, the fans try to but are unable to  
> start
> up. I have to bump them to start them spinning. Power level two has no
> problem spinning them up. When I went to power level four and then  
> brought
> the power level to one, the fans did not have any problem continuing
> running. The fan specs can be found here
> http://www.sundialmicro.com/ipcqueen_dc_fan_606010_ball_bearing_3pin_2033_1199.html 
> .
> Is there any components that I can add in line to provide the  
> necessary
> power to start the fans up at power level one?
>
>
> Thanks
> Brian Binkley
> KD8CPF
> [e-mail]
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... [show rest of quote]

... [show rest of quote]

[David Woolley (E.L)]

Jim Miller KG0KP wrote:
> "37C (the fan turn-on temp" >

> What is the approximate temp for speedup to the faster speeds?

You are assuming that they are using a simple one term, proportional,
controller.  You are probably right, but modern central heating
controllers are two term (they include an integral term), and industrial
controllers may well be three term.

The wildly varying thermal input probably means that any sophisticated
controller would need to be aware of transmission.



--
David Woolley
"The Elecraft list is a forum for the discussion of topics related to
Elecraft products and more general topics related ham radio"
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