K3: KPA500 on a generator?

[Ralph Parker]

Here's something perhaps you 'KPA500 beta testers' could try:

During my summertime 6m grid-hopping activities, it would be nice to power
a portable station (K3 and KPA500) from my Honda 2000i generator. (AC power
is seldom available on a mountaintop.)

My older 'non-i' generator could not even stand the varying load of CW or
SSB at 100 watts, so I hung a battery across the generator 12v output, and
ran the station off the battery. Worked fine, but now I want more power!

Ralph, VE7XF

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[Dick Dievendorff]

Here's a note from N6TV, one of the KPA500 field testers, on the topic:

 

Dick, K6KR



 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob
Wilson, N6TV



Yes, feel free to forward to the list:  I ran my K3 and KPA500 and a desktop
computer on a single Honda EU-2000i at 125V, and it worked fine.  The amp
draws about 1225 VA max and the generator is rated for 1600 VA continuous.

The generator didn't like the highly varying load while running in Econo
mode (it shuttered enough that it walked off the sidewalk and ended up on
its side), but in normal "full out" mode it had no problems and neither did
the amp.  It's an ideal 600W amp. for DXpeditions.

73,
Bob, N6TV

VE7XF asked: During my summertime 6m grid-hopping activities, it would be
nice to power a portable station (K3 and KPA500) from my Honda 2000i
generator. (AC power is
seldom available on a mountaintop.)




 

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[Jim Brown-10]

On 2/16/2011 4:50 PM, Ralph Parker wrote:
> During my summertime 6m grid-hopping activities, it would be nice to power
> a portable station (K3 and KPA500) from my Honda 2000i generator.

We had a couple of 2000i generators at our CQP setup, and at least one
of them was running a K3 with a 500W amp on both CW and SSB.

73, Jim K9YC
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[Jim Brown-10]

On 2/16/2011 10:14 PM, Dick Dievendorff wrote:
> The generator didn't like the highly varying load while running in Econo
> mode (it shuttered enough that it walked off the sidewalk and ended up on
> its side), but in normal "full out" mode it had no problems and neither did
> the amp.  It's an ideal 600W amp. for DXpeditions.

RIGHT.  I have the 6.5kVA Honda as a standby for my home in the
mountains. My biggest load are a couple of well motors. The 6500 runs
them OK in normal mode, but it WON'T run them in economy mode.

73, Jim K9YC
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[David Cutter]

This is of interest to me, but is there an implication that the K3 + KPA500
MUST have an "advanced inverter technology" generator - providing "stable
power for computers and more" variety of modern generator?  Can I not use a
2kVA "legacy generator" without the inverter technology at a third of the
price?

David
G3UNA

> Yes, feel free to forward to the list:  I ran my K3 and KPA500 and a
> desktop
> computer on a single Honda EU-2000i at 125V, and it worked fine.  The amp
> draws about 1225 VA max and the generator is rated for 1600 VA continuous.
>
> The generator didn't like the highly varying load while running in Econo
> mode (it shuttered enough that it walked off the sidewalk and ended up on
> its side), but in normal "full out" mode it had no problems and neither
> did
> the amp.  It's an ideal 600W amp. for DXpeditions.
>
> 73,
> Bob, N6TV
>
> VE7XF asked: During my summertime 6m grid-hopping activities, it would be
> nice to power a portable station (K3 and KPA500) from my Honda 2000i
> generator. (AC power is
> seldom available on a mountaintop.)
>
>

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[Brendan Minish]

David

There is no such implication, I think that's just the generator he had
to hand! I can test my FT KPA500 on a generator but my generator too is
an inverting one, a 2KW honda.  

One thing though when those generators are in 'econo' mode there will be
serious voltage sags whilst the generator throttles up with large
variable loads (such as CW ) and the KPA500 coped fine with that
(although that type of intermittent load is not good for the honda..)

The PSU in the KPA500 is a linear one (not a switcher) and I would
expect it to do fine on any generator that makes at least some attempt
to regulate the output voltage.
I am not going to rent a conventional generator to test on but the
KPA500 copes just fine with my mains variations which go from 225
(night) to 246 (Day)  

Switchers can actually be more problematic on generator type loads, we
have a 15KVA generator with AVR at work that was brought to it's knees
by 5Kw of Computing equipment loads.
IT loads in common with most devices powered by switchers have a really
rotten power factor. Inverting generators can do better with those
loads
See here for what a modest computer load looks like
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bminish/4698934177/

73
Brendan EI6IZ

On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 09:05 +0000, David Cutter wrote:

> This is of interest to me, but is there an implication that the K3 + KPA500
> MUST have an "advanced inverter technology" generator - providing "stable
> power for computers and more" variety of modern generator?  Can I not use a
> 2kVA "legacy generator" without the inverter technology at a third of the
> price?
>
> David
> G3UNA
>
>
>
> > Yes, feel free to forward to the list:  I ran my K3 and KPA500 and a
> > desktop
> > computer on a single Honda EU-2000i at 125V, and it worked fine.  The amp
> > draws about 1225 VA max and the generator is rated for 1600 VA continuous.
> >
> > The generator didn't like the highly varying load while running in Econo
> > mode (it shuttered enough that it walked off the sidewalk and ended up on
> > its side), but in normal "full out" mode it had no problems and neither
> > did
> > the amp.  It's an ideal 600W amp. for DXpeditions.
> >
> > 73,
> > Bob, N6TV
> >
> > VE7XF asked: During my summertime 6m grid-hopping activities, it would be
> > nice to power a portable station (K3 and KPA500) from my Honda 2000i
> > generator. (AC power is
> > seldom available on a mountaintop.)
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
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--
73
Brendan EI6IZ

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[David Cutter]

Thanks Brendan.  The screenshot is interesting as it shows the sinewave
still pretty much intact, was that on the 15kVA genny?

Smaller generators I've measured into resistive loads have a triangular
waveform.  I've not measured one on psu loads recently, but I did measure
what happened inside the psu and it did not give me a warm feeling.

Does anyone sell or even advise a power factor corrector for small
generators?  Of course it's not just the PF, I suspect the main problem is
the pulse loading.

David
G3UNA

> David
>
> There is no such implication, I think that's just the generator he had
> to hand! I can test my FT KPA500 on a generator but my generator too is
> an inverting one, a 2KW honda.
>
> One thing though when those generators are in 'econo' mode there will be
> serious voltage sags whilst the generator throttles up with large
> variable loads (such as CW ) and the KPA500 coped fine with that
> (although that type of intermittent load is not good for the honda..)
>
> The PSU in the KPA500 is a linear one (not a switcher) and I would
> expect it to do fine on any generator that makes at least some attempt
> to regulate the output voltage.
> I am not going to rent a conventional generator to test on but the
> KPA500 copes just fine with my mains variations which go from 225
> (night) to 246 (Day)
>
> Switchers can actually be more problematic on generator type loads, we
> have a 15KVA generator with AVR at work that was brought to it's knees
> by 5Kw of Computing equipment loads.
> IT loads in common with most devices powered by switchers have a really
> rotten power factor. Inverting generators can do better with those
> loads
> See here for what a modest computer load looks like
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bminish/4698934177/
>
> 73
> Brendan EI6IZ
>
> On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 09:05 +0000, David Cutter wrote:
>> This is of interest to me, but is there an implication that the K3 +
>> KPA500
>> MUST have an "advanced inverter technology" generator - providing "stable
>> power for computers and more" variety of modern generator?  Can I not use
>> a
>> 2kVA "legacy generator" without the inverter technology at a third of the
>> price?
>>
>> David
>> G3UNA
>>
>>
>>
>> > Yes, feel free to forward to the list:  I ran my K3 and KPA500 and a
>> > desktop
>> > computer on a single Honda EU-2000i at 125V, and it worked fine.  The
>> > amp
>> > draws about 1225 VA max and the generator is rated for 1600 VA
>> > continuous.
>> >
>> > The generator didn't like the highly varying load while running in
>> > Econo
>> > mode (it shuttered enough that it walked off the sidewalk and ended up
>> > on
>> > its side), but in normal "full out" mode it had no problems and neither
>> > did
>> > the amp.  It's an ideal 600W amp. for DXpeditions.
>> >
>> > 73,
>> > Bob, N6TV
>> >
>> > VE7XF asked: During my summertime 6m grid-hopping activities, it would
>> > be
>> > nice to power a portable station (K3 and KPA500) from my Honda 2000i
>> > generator. (AC power is
>> > seldom available on a mountaintop.)
>> >
>> >

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[Jim Brown-10]

On 2/18/2011 1:05 AM, David Cutter wrote:
> This is of interest to me, but is there an implication that the K3 + KPA500
> MUST have an "advanced inverter technology" generator - providing "stable
> power for computers and more" variety of modern generator?

NO! The issue is the GENERATOR being happy and running well with a
pulsed load current that is a fairly high percentage of its rated
current.  My much bigger Honda EU6500 will run a LONG time in economy
mode with SMALL loads, but will stagger to its knees with the heavy load
of well motors. To run those pumps, which cycle on and off periodically,
I have to run the generator in "Normal" mode, which burns a lot more
petrol.

See my earlier post about using a 2000i on a CQP expedition with a 500W
amp.  It ran just fine, and I'm sure that the gen would be equally happy
with the KPA500.

73, Jim K9YC
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[David Cutter]

Thanks, Jim, got the message.

Now, I would like to use the K3+KPA500 with an unused Briggs and Stratton
2kVA generator that I fancy for portable work.   It's probably the last of
the "old style" ie no inverter technology.  I don't expect Elecraft to test
their kit with all and sundry generators that were ever built, but there
might some lore about VA ratings and on/off ratios.

Any advice welcome.

David
G3UNA

> On 2/18/2011 1:05 AM, David Cutter wrote:
>> This is of interest to me, but is there an implication that the K3 +
>> KPA500
>> MUST have an "advanced inverter technology" generator - providing "stable
>> power for computers and more" variety of modern generator?
>
> NO! The issue is the GENERATOR being happy and running well with a
> pulsed load current that is a fairly high percentage of its rated
> current.  My much bigger Honda EU6500 will run a LONG time in economy
> mode with SMALL loads, but will stagger to its knees with the heavy load
> of well motors. To run those pumps, which cycle on and off periodically,
> I have to run the generator in "Normal" mode, which burns a lot more
> petrol.
>
> See my earlier post about using a 2000i on a CQP expedition with a 500W
> amp.  It ran just fine, and I'm sure that the gen would be equally happy
> with the KPA500.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

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[Brendan Minish]

It should be fine, about the only thing you may need to do is put a
couple of hundred watts of base load on it or it may not run very
smoothly with the big changes in load that will go with keying
This would apply with any linear mind you

On 18/02/2011 18:36, David Cutter wrote:

> Thanks, Jim, got the message.
>
> Now, I would like to use the K3+KPA500 with an unused Briggs and Stratton
> 2kVA generator that I fancy for portable work.   It's probably the last of
> the "old style" ie no inverter technology.  I don't expect Elecraft to test
> their kit with all and sundry generators that were ever built, but there
> might some lore about VA ratings and on/off ratios.
>
> Any advice welcome.
>
> David
> G3UNA
>
>
>
>
>
>> On 2/18/2011 1:05 AM, David Cutter wrote:
>>> This is of interest to me, but is there an implication that the K3 +
>>> KPA500
>>> MUST have an "advanced inverter technology" generator - providing "stable
>>> power for computers and more" variety of modern generator?
>>
>> NO! The issue is the GENERATOR being happy and running well with a
>> pulsed load current that is a fairly high percentage of its rated
>> current.  My much bigger Honda EU6500 will run a LONG time in economy
>> mode with SMALL loads, but will stagger to its knees with the heavy load
>> of well motors. To run those pumps, which cycle on and off periodically,
>> I have to run the generator in "Normal" mode, which burns a lot more
>> petrol.
>>
>> See my earlier post about using a 2000i on a CQP expedition with a 500W
>> amp.  It ran just fine, and I'm sure that the gen would be equally happy
>> with the KPA500.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>
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--
73
Brendan EI6IZ
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[Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA]

CONTENTS DELETED

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[David Cutter]

Thanks Brendan and Jeff with good advice, I've done this myself and it works
well.
However, small generators I have seen do not produce mains-quality sinewave
output: it's more triangular and I just want to know if Elecraft are happy
with their kit running on this sort of supply which is also varying in
voltage and frequency.  I can think of several mechanisms to stress a psu.

David
G3UNA

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[Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA]

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[gm3sek]

David Cutter wrote:
>Thanks Brendan and Jeff with good advice, I've done this myself and it
>works well. However, small generators I have seen do not produce
>mains-quality sinewave output: it's more triangular and I just want to
>know if Elecraft are happy with their kit running on this sort of
>supply which is also varying in voltage and frequency.  I can think of
>several mechanisms to stress a psu.
>

Another stress factor is that European generators run at 50Hz, like our
mains. Many mains transformers run much hotter at 50Hz than at 60Hz,
ripple voltage increases and induction motors run more slowly,
considerably affecting blower performance.

Very few US manufacturers are capable of in-house testing on 50Hz, so
it's good to see that Elecraft have placed a KPA500 with Brendan.




--

73 from Ian GM3SEK
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek
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[Jim Brown-10]

On 2/19/2011 7:32 AM, Ian White GM3SEK wrote:
> Very few US manufacturers are capable of in-house testing on 50Hz, so
> it's good to see that Elecraft have placed a KPA500 with Brendan.

//I can assure you that Elecraft engineers are smart enough to design
for 50 Hz power.

73, Jim K9YC
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[gm3sek]

Jim Brown wrote:
>On 2/19/2011 7:32 AM, Ian White GM3SEK wrote:
>> Very few US manufacturers are capable of in-house testing on 50Hz, so
>> it's good to see that Elecraft have placed a KPA500 with Brendan.
>
>//I can assure you that Elecraft engineers are smart enough to design
>for 50 Hz power.
>

Of course; but smart companies like Elecraft will also take good care to
*verify* their designs under actual conditions of use.

Operation from a 50Hz supply will push almost every aspect of a design
much closer to its margins, especially the temperature rise (which is
notoriously difficult to predict). Far too often, we in Europe have
literally had our fingers burned!

Jim himself has carried out a very important thermal stress test of the
KPA500, operating for many hours in an RTTY contest at a high CQ:RX
ratio. Those results ("stayed cool as a cucumber") are very
encouraging... so please can we look forward to a repeat on 50Hz, where
everything will get hotter?


--

73 from Ian GM3SEK
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek
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[Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA]

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[Johnny Siu]

The main supply in Hong Kong is 220v 50Hz.

 cheers,


Johnny VR2XMC




________________________________
寄件人﹕ Jeff Cochrane - VK4BOF <[hidden email]>
收件人﹕ Ian White GM3SEK <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
傳送日期﹕ 2011/2/23 (三) 4:46:58 PM
主題： Re: [Elecraft] FW: FW: K3: KPA500 on a generator?

I am absolutely sure that there are indeed KPA-500's operating with either 50hz
mains or generator usage at this time.
I do not for a minute believe that Wayne, Eric and the gang at Elecraft have not
thought of 50Hz operation.
(After all, 50Hz mains is far more prevalent than 60Hz mains in the world)
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Weltkarte_der_Netzspannungen_und_Netzfrequenzen.svg
 for an interesting pic.

73 de

Jeff Cochrane - VK4BOF
Innisfail, QLD, Australia
Elecraft K3# 4257 + PR6 - K144XV = multiband goodness!

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Ian White GM3SEK
  To: [hidden email]
  Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 6:29 PM
  Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FW: FW: K3: KPA500 on a generator?


  Jim Brown wrote:
  >On 2/19/2011 7:32 AM, Ian White GM3SEK wrote:
  >> Very few US manufacturers are capable of in-house testing on 50Hz, so
  >> it's good to see that Elecraft have placed a KPA500 with Brendan.
  >
  >//I can assure you that Elecraft engineers are smart enough to design
  >for 50 Hz power.
  >

  Of course; but smart companies like Elecraft will also take good care to
  *verify* their designs under actual conditions of use.

  Operation from a 50Hz supply will push almost every aspect of a design
  much closer to its margins, especially the temperature rise (which is
  notoriously difficult to predict). Far too often, we in Europe have
  literally had our fingers burned!

  Jim himself has carried out a very important thermal stress test of the
  KPA500, operating for many hours in an RTTY contest at a high CQ:RX
  ratio. Those results ("stayed cool as a cucumber") are very
  encouraging... so please can we look forward to a repeat on 50Hz, where
  everything will get hotter?


  --

  73 from Ian GM3SEK
  http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek
  ______________________________________________________________
  Elecraft mailing list
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