Elecraft

[K3} [KX3] SSBT like CWT ?

Classic

List

Threaded

7 messages Options

K7TV

[K3} [KX3] SSBT like CWT ?

At Field Day I have observed a number of operators operating SSB. I have
noticed that there is a great variation in skill when it comes to tuning the
RX to an SSB signal. Sometimes I feel that the op has it tuned all wrong and
I almost want to grab the knob. Maybe different people's brains focus on
different aspects of the sound when they tune the RX. Some people seem to
want to tune for the best balance between highs and lows, when the HI CUT
and LO CUT would do a better job. When I tune the RX, I believe that I am
not trying to balance highs and lows, but rather trying to find some kind of
harmony in the sound. If I were tuning in a piece of music from an AM BC
station with the radio in SSB mode, clearly the harmonics of a musical note
will not be harmonious if the radio tuning is off. If a voice is used for
singing, it is like a musical instrument. If the voice is speaking, I
believe the harmonics are still at play as with a musical note. This leads
me to speculate that it would be possible to run an FFT on the received
audio and determine by how much the RX tuning is off, just like with CWT. I
am very fond of the CWT feature on the K3 and on the KX3. I wonder if it
would be practical to add SSBT as a new feature.

73,

Erik K7TV

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Peter Lambert

Re: [K3} [KX3] SSBT like CWT ?

You are spot on, Eric

This is an algorithm I've contemplated writing many times.

Voice results from the vocal cords snapping together in the range around
85Hz. The filter effect of the various cavities, throat, mouth and nasal
are quite high Q and filter the harmonic rich vocal chord excitation to
produce the voice.

If you watch an SSB signal on your PSK waterfall you'll clearly see the
harmonics of the vocal chords.

I think a DSP algorithm that calculates the location of the carrier based on
the separation between the vocal chords is a definite doable proposition.

It would give SSB the perfect clarity you seek.

Love to have a go at this (I do DSP). Do you Elecraft guys want to have a
go or interested in using it if I do it ? (I could probably do it as a piece
of PC code that processes sound card input so you could evaluate it).
Doesn't feel like to be a difficult thing to do.

Cheers,
Peter VK4JD

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Erik Basilier
Sent: Tuesday, 5 February 2013 3:07 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] [K3} [KX3] SSBT like CWT ?

At Field Day I have observed a number of operators operating SSB. I have
noticed that there is a great variation in skill when it comes to tuning the
RX to an SSB signal. Sometimes I feel that the op has it tuned all wrong and
I almost want to grab the knob. Maybe different people's brains focus on
different aspects of the sound when they tune the RX. Some people seem to
want to tune for the best balance between highs and lows, when the HI CUT
and LO CUT would do a better job. When I tune the RX, I believe that I am
not trying to balance highs and lows, but rather trying to find some kind of
harmony in the sound. If I were tuning in a piece of music from an AM BC
station with the radio in SSB mode, clearly the harmonics of a musical note
will not be harmonious if the radio tuning is off. If a voice is used for
singing, it is like a musical instrument. If the voice is speaking, I
believe the harmonics are still at play as with a musical note. This leads
me to speculate that it would be possible to run an FFT on the received
audio and determine by how much the RX tuning is off, just like with CWT. I
am very fond of the CWT feature on the K3 and on the KX3. I wonder if it
would be practical to add SSBT as a new feature.

73,

Erik K7TV

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Gary Gregory-2

Re: [K3} [KX3] SSBT like CWT ?

In reply to this post by K7TV

Eric,

I have the K3 and KX3 sounding pretty close in the headset on RX. (CM-500)

I have found that adjustment of the RX-EQ needs to be done first and then I
set the Hi/Lo cut and I then went and rechecked my RX-EQ settings to be
sure I had the best audio for me. By doing it this way I now rarely find
the need to adjust my Hi/Lo cut again unless the band is acting
dramatically different to when I did my set up or a station has moved close
to the frequency I am operating on and I still need to work the frequency I
have been on. Obviously I have no need to alter my RX-EQ settings now that
I have them set.

My ears are not good, the internal speaker on both rigs don't work well for
me. Tinnitus IS an issue that I can't get rid off short of
decapitation...:-)

As I don't hear the lows very well, I have changed the RX-EQ to improve the
audio quality and I check that against the Hi/Lo settings I prefer so that
now I rarely have a need to change them.

Tuning up and down the band for me now is pretty easy with respect to
hearing a 'pleasant' tone of voice.

YMMV of course and my opinion must be taken as purely subjective and I hope
you don't have to deal with the difficulties I have to deal with on a daily
basis.

73

Gary

On 5 February 2013 16:07, Erik Basilier <[hidden email]> wrote:

> At Field Day I have observed a number of operators operating SSB. I have
> noticed that there is a great variation in skill when it comes to tuning
> the
> RX to an SSB signal. Sometimes I feel that the op has it tuned all wrong
> and
> I almost want to grab the knob. Maybe different people's brains focus on
> different aspects of the sound when they tune the RX. Some people seem to
> want to tune for the best balance between highs and lows, when the HI CUT
> and LO CUT would do a better job. When I tune the RX, I believe that I am
> not trying to balance highs and lows, but rather trying to find some kind
> of
> harmony in the sound. If I were tuning in a piece of music from an AM BC
> station with the radio in SSB mode, clearly the harmonics of a musical note
> will not be harmonious if the radio tuning is off. If a voice is used for
> singing, it is like a musical instrument. If the voice is speaking, I
> believe the harmonics are still at play as with a musical note. This leads
> me to speculate that it would be possible to run an FFT on the received
> audio and determine by how much the RX tuning is off, just like with CWT. I
> am very fond of the CWT feature on the K3 and on the KX3. I wonder if it
> would be practical to add SSBT as a new feature.
>
>
>
> 73,
>
> Erik K7TV
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

--
*Gary - VK1ZZ
Motorhome Portable
The Shack*
*Elecraft K3
P3 Panadapter
KPA500FT
KAT500FT**
KX3-K
*
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Robert Wright

Re: [K3} [KX3] SSBT like CWT ?

In reply to this post by Peter Lambert

This sounds like an interesting project. It would seem that the technique would be finding the offset frequency that provides the best alignment of harmonics, which is what we naturally do by ear. Not difficult, but would probably need a bit of tweaking to provide good real-time performance. It would only be valuable if it was significantly faster than what we do manually.

It's good when projects are self-motivating.

73, Bob, N7ZO

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Peter Lambert
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 9:25 PM
To: 'Erik Basilier'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3} [KX3] SSBT like CWT ?

You are spot on, Eric

This is an algorithm I've contemplated writing many times.

Voice results from the vocal cords snapping together in the range around 85Hz. The filter effect of the various cavities, throat, mouth and nasal are quite high Q and filter the harmonic rich vocal chord excitation to produce the voice.

If you watch an SSB signal on your PSK waterfall you'll clearly see the harmonics of the vocal chords.

I think a DSP algorithm that calculates the location of the carrier based on the separation between the vocal chords is a definite doable proposition.

It would give SSB the perfect clarity you seek.

Love to have a go at this (I do DSP). Do you Elecraft guys want to have a go or interested in using it if I do it ? (I could probably do it as a piece of PC code that processes sound card input so you could evaluate it).
Doesn't feel like to be a difficult thing to do.

Cheers,
Peter VK4JD

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Erik Basilier
Sent: Tuesday, 5 February 2013 3:07 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] [K3} [KX3] SSBT like CWT ?

At Field Day I have observed a number of operators operating SSB. I have noticed that there is a great variation in skill when it comes to tuning the RX to an SSB signal. Sometimes I feel that the op has it tuned all wrong and I almost want to grab the knob. Maybe different people's brains focus on different aspects of the sound when they tune the RX. Some people seem to want to tune for the best balance between highs and lows, when the HI CUT and LO CUT would do a better job. When I tune the RX, I believe that I am not trying to balance highs and lows, but rather trying to find some kind of harmony in the sound. If I were tuning in a piece of music from an AM BC station with the radio in SSB mode, clearly the harmonics of a musical note will not be harmonious if the radio tuning is off. If a voice is used for singing, it is like a musical instrument. If the voice is speaking, I believe the harmonics are still at play as with a musical note. This leads me to speculate that it
would be possible to run an FFT on the received audio and determine by how much the RX tuning is off, just like with CWT. I am very fond of the CWT feature on the K3 and on the KX3. I wonder if it would be practical to add SSBT as a new feature.

73,

Erik K7TV

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Gary Gregory-2

Re: [K3} [KX3] SSBT like CWT ?

Would this provide the same result when the user has either a hearing
defect or reduced hearing?

Would the above issues be irrelevant.

It does sound like an interesting project though.

73
Gary

On 5 February 2013 16:54, Wright, Robert <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This sounds like an interesting project. It would seem that the technique
> would be finding the offset frequency that provides the best alignment of
> harmonics, which is what we naturally do by ear. Not difficult, but would
> probably need a bit of tweaking to provide good real-time performance. It
> would only be valuable if it was significantly faster than what we do
> manually.
>
> It's good when projects are self-motivating.
>
> 73, Bob, N7ZO
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Peter Lambert
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 9:25 PM
> To: 'Erik Basilier'; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3} [KX3] SSBT like CWT ?
>
> You are spot on, Eric
>
> This is an algorithm I've contemplated writing many times.
>
> Voice results from the vocal cords snapping together in the range around
> 85Hz. The filter effect of the various cavities, throat, mouth and nasal
> are quite high Q and filter the harmonic rich vocal chord excitation to
> produce the voice.
>
> If you watch an SSB signal on your PSK waterfall you'll clearly see the
> harmonics of the vocal chords.
>
> I think a DSP algorithm that calculates the location of the carrier based
> on the separation between the vocal chords is a definite doable proposition.
>
> It would give SSB the perfect clarity you seek.
>
> Love to have a go at this (I do DSP). Do you Elecraft guys want to have a
> go or interested in using it if I do it ? (I could probably do it as a
> piece of PC code that processes sound card input so you could evaluate it).
> Doesn't feel like to be a difficult thing to do.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter VK4JD
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Erik Basilier
> Sent: Tuesday, 5 February 2013 3:07 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] [K3} [KX3] SSBT like CWT ?
>
> At Field Day I have observed a number of operators operating SSB. I have
> noticed that there is a great variation in skill when it comes to tuning
> the RX to an SSB signal. Sometimes I feel that the op has it tuned all
> wrong and I almost want to grab the knob. Maybe different people's brains
> focus on different aspects of the sound when they tune the RX. Some people
> seem to want to tune for the best balance between highs and lows, when the
> HI CUT and LO CUT would do a better job. When I tune the RX, I believe that
> I am not trying to balance highs and lows, but rather trying to find some
> kind of harmony in the sound. If I were tuning in a piece of music from an
> AM BC station with the radio in SSB mode, clearly the harmonics of a
> musical note will not be harmonious if the radio tuning is off. If a voice
> is used for singing, it is like a musical instrument. If the voice is
> speaking, I believe the harmonics are still at play as with a musical note.
> This leads me to speculate that it
> would be possible to run an FFT on the received audio and determine by
> how much the RX tuning is off, just like with CWT. I am very fond of the
> CWT feature on the K3 and on the KX3. I wonder if it would be practical to
> add SSBT as a new feature.
>
>
>
> 73,
>
> Erik K7TV
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Peter Lambert

Re: [K3} [KX3] SSBT like CWT ?

In reply to this post by Robert Wright

That's it precisely. Should be able to resolve the exact frequency and
phase of the carrier. There's a lot of information there to work with (take
a look at that waterfall with SSB you'll see what I mean). Given the
carrier is rock stable with time it should be possible to do this with VERY
good accuracy. I don't think it'd be all that hard at all.

Not a lot of point doing this on your own unless you've got an open source
rig. I don't. I've got Icom and Elecraft. Reckon it could be done and
tested in the PC via a soundcard. I'd be more than interested in doing it
if Elecraft were at all interested (even in an evaluation). It'd feel like
a contribution to the amateur pool, I'd love to bring a little of my work
into the hobby. There's probably plenty of DSP guys like me on this list
that could do it.

I tune for the "natural" sound that prompted Erik to write his original
post. It feels a bit like getting all the lows to "line up" but when you do
find the spot it's sweet. If you're in a particularly anal mood it can be a
challenge. It's this that has made me contemplate the possibility many
times.

73's Peter VK4JD

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wright, Robert
Sent: Tuesday, 5 February 2013 3:54 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3} [KX3] SSBT like CWT ?

This sounds like an interesting project. It would seem that the technique
would be finding the offset frequency that provides the best alignment of
harmonics, which is what we naturally do by ear. Not difficult, but would
probably need a bit of tweaking to provide good real-time performance. It
would only be valuable if it was significantly faster than what we do
manually.

It's good when projects are self-motivating.

73, Bob, N7ZO

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Peter Lambert
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 9:25 PM
To: 'Erik Basilier'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3} [KX3] SSBT like CWT ?

You are spot on, Eric

This is an algorithm I've contemplated writing many times.

Voice results from the vocal cords snapping together in the range around
85Hz. The filter effect of the various cavities, throat, mouth and nasal
are quite high Q and filter the harmonic rich vocal chord excitation to
produce the voice.

If you watch an SSB signal on your PSK waterfall you'll clearly see the
harmonics of the vocal chords.

I think a DSP algorithm that calculates the location of the carrier based on
the separation between the vocal chords is a definite doable proposition.

It would give SSB the perfect clarity you seek.

Love to have a go at this (I do DSP). Do you Elecraft guys want to have a
go or interested in using it if I do it ? (I could probably do it as a piece
of PC code that processes sound card input so you could evaluate it).
Doesn't feel like to be a difficult thing to do.

Cheers,
Peter VK4JD

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Erik Basilier
Sent: Tuesday, 5 February 2013 3:07 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] [K3} [KX3] SSBT like CWT ?

At Field Day I have observed a number of operators operating SSB. I have
noticed that there is a great variation in skill when it comes to tuning the
RX to an SSB signal. Sometimes I feel that the op has it tuned all wrong and
I almost want to grab the knob. Maybe different people's brains focus on
different aspects of the sound when they tune the RX. Some people seem to
want to tune for the best balance between highs and lows, when the HI CUT
and LO CUT would do a better job. When I tune the RX, I believe that I am
not trying to balance highs and lows, but rather trying to find some kind of
harmony in the sound. If I were tuning in a piece of music from an AM BC
station with the radio in SSB mode, clearly the harmonics of a musical note
will not be harmonious if the radio tuning is off. If a voice is used for
singing, it is like a musical instrument. If the voice is speaking, I
believe the harmonics are still at play as with a musical note. This leads
me to speculate that it
would be possible to run an FFT on the received audio and determine by how
much the RX tuning is off, just like with CWT. I am very fond of the CWT
feature on the K3 and on the KX3. I wonder if it would be practical to add
SSBT as a new feature.

73,

Erik K7TV

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Lyle Johnson

Re: [K3} [KX3] SSBT like CWT ?

In reply to this post by Peter Lambert

Hello Peter!

An interesting algorithm for automatically tuning an SSB signal was
described at length in the Jan 1999 issue of QEX.

73,

Lyle KK7P

> This is an algorithm I've contemplated writing many times....

> At Field Day I have observed a number of operators operating SSB. I have
> noticed that there is a great variation in skill when it comes to tuning the
> RX to an SSB signal...

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html